Guild Wars 2

So yesterday I was duelling ppl in a guild from another server
Fought 2 warriors and 1 guardian. Won all 3 duels 1v1.

and they started whispering me to drain all my lifeforce/deathshroud before dueling. calling me nasty names like coward etc for not daring to fight without my lifeforce

I refused to drain because to me lifeforce/deathshroud is part of a necro’s skill set and asking me to start without it is like asking me to fight handicap.

To me its almost like asking a guardian to fight without using his virtues or a thief to fight without using his steal skill. it was illogical to say the least.

But that guild was very insistent that a fair duel means that a necro should not have any lifeforce at the start of the duel.

I am kinda new to the duelling scene so I thought I would check on the forums if a necro should start a duel with zero lifeforce to be fair to the opponent thanks.

I start duels at 50%. If someone wants to duel with me having 0 life force than I refuse, because its a big advantage for whoever I’m fighting.

My opinion may not be popular or accepted but to me it’s like you said, fighting without my class mechanic and main defense.

Start with how much you want you are here to duel not please others.

Yeah I honestly don’t duel much so I don’t know.. All I really do know is that in official duels some OP in 1v1 things are banned like supply crate, P/D thief, PU mesmer, or anything that can be considered a pure bunker. Lich form would probably be banned, but I’m honestly not sure. I don’t think that life force would be overrpowered and honestly I think we need to start pvp matches with at least 50% life force because the amount of life force we have is so important to how well we can do if we’re caught with our pants down.

I’ve dueled on all sorts of Lifeforce though I think 50% is fair in WvW.

The guild you are fighting seems like they just wanted an advantage if needs be point out to them even in Spvp servers Necromancers are allowed to summon two minions for Lifeforce before starting a duel.

nearlight.3064:

Yeah I honestly don’t duel much so I don’t know.. All I really do know is that in official duels some OP in 1v1 things are banned like supply crate, P/D thief, PU mesmer, or anything that can be considered a pure bunker. Lich form would probably be banned, but I’m honestly not sure. I don’t think that life force would be overrpowered and honestly I think we need to start pvp matches with at least 50% life force because the amount of life force we have is so important to how well we can do if we’re caught with our pants down.

There are no “official duels.” Not until ANet creates a PvP mode/arena specifically for that where only two people are allowed in at a time.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

nearlight.3064:

Yeah I honestly don’t duel much so I don’t know.. All I really do know is that in official duels some OP in 1v1 things are banned like supply crate, P/D thief, PU mesmer, or anything that can be considered a pure bunker. Lich form would probably be banned, but I’m honestly not sure. I don’t think that life force would be overrpowered and honestly I think we need to start pvp matches with at least 50% life force because the amount of life force we have is so important to how well we can do if we’re caught with our pants down.

There are no “official duels.” Not until ANet creates a PvP mode/arena specifically for that where only two people are allowed in at a time.

Well true. But I mean official as in duel tournaments created by guilds or other player groups and their rules, in order to ensure fair and honorable matchups, and honestly life force shouldn’t be a cause for an unfair or dishonarable matchup if its at 50%.

Thats like saying GvG is unofficial, even if its true, but rather its a community run system with their own set of rules, for example stacking sigils (like bloodlust) are banned from player run GvGs, and you have to link your weapons before the match to verify it.. not perfect but its still a rule, and breaking those rules hurts your reputation or your guild’s reputation if you’re caught.

Pretty sure in duels having 33% lifeforce or somewhere around there is the acceptable number. It’s enough to allow you to use the skills but not so much your a tank.

With that said yeah I’ve had lots of people take kitten when they kill me without any lf and then get so kittening mad when I duel them with lf.

but why cap a starting LF at 50% or 33% or 10% or 0%?

LF IS OUR NECRO SKILL. why do we have to handicap ourselves?

Why dont guardians set all their virtues on cooldown before the start of a duel?

I’m not saying I agree with the the limiting of our lf. I do however know that if I start a fight with full lifeforce against almost any class I’m probably going to win that fight.

Does the same ‘rule’ hold for adrenaline for warriors, I wonder?
I don’t duel, but if a roamer catches me unawares, my LF makes the difference between being ganked and survival. If I were to duel, and my opponent wanted me to drain my LF, I’d be inclined to invite him to move on to PvP rather than WvW.

Isn’t the whole point of dueling or GvG in WvW (rather than sPvP) having the freedom to express your own ideas on builds rather than being constrained by what the devs think is good balance?

This is one of the reasons I think Life Force and Deathshroud is poorly implemented. It makes a world of a difference if you start out at 0% or 100%. You could go as far as saying that the fight is determined before even engaging purely based on how much Life Force you have before hand (If you’re both equally skilled and no hard counters)… And that’s a poorly implemented mechanic.

A tip if you’re out of Life Force before dueling is to summon Bone Fiend, then swapping the skill for Shadowing Fiend, summoning that and switching to your regular skill. That will give you 20-22%. If you wanna go even further you can do the same with Flesh Golem – or summoning and using Flesh Wurm (will put it on a 40s cooldown though…).

You can do that trick with all of the minions. I do it before every pvp match

NeXeD.3042:

You can do that trick with all of the minions. I do it before every pvp match

Those with sacrifice actives never grant life force on death. For Flesh Wurm, the active itself gives you the life force, not the minion death.

Huh, never noticed that I don’t usually do it with the wurm anyway but I always thought I was getting lf from the Bone minions.

PvP duel server has a rule of 20%.
Its also the normal amount at the start of serious match, as 3 minions is pushing your luck with lag. and personaly, anything above 50% is my advantage.

However, for wvw id consider 50% to be the balance sweet spot:
1) higher stats , higher dmg
2) no objects, staff#1 multihits , pets dying to give you LF during fight
3) most time you encounter a necro roaming is with 100% LF anyway, due to criters at start

I would seriously consider running Bone Minions in any regular build if they gave 20% lf (or more depending on traits). ^^

On topic: everyone who asks you to drain all your life force before a duel has never played a necro.

In general starting with 100% life force is questionable. You might argue that it’s about as much against duelling etiquette as fighting with kill stacks. You could do it, because you might have the opinion that a duel represents a random encounter on one of the maps. But what’s the point if you just want to have an even match with someone and you’re clearly stronger with that amount of life force?
Others argue that you should start a duel with 20-30% because that’s how much you get at the start of a tPvP match and is allowed on most dueling servers.

Of course, ultimately everything depends on your opponents and your own skill level.
I usually drain my life force if I have more than 30%. And I generally don’t duel with food or elite unless it’s the only way to be evenly matched with my opponent. If I play against people who are new to necro I don’t mid if they start with more life force than I do. This way it’s just a better fighting experience for both players.

It’s most definetly allowed. In any fight to the death, only victory matters. Thieves use teleports, blinds, stealths. all the tools of the trade for the dirty fighter. Even warriors fight dirty by smashing weak points to force their enemy to fall over. Life force is an essential necromancer mechanic to be comparable to other classes. These people you fought are just sore little losers, and you should not let them affect you – at all.

most of the rules in dueling arenas are ‘no elites with 121+ seconds, no life force above 40% , usually 30% life force, no heavy bunker, no pu, etc’

yea my Power Build is built around DS and LF (giving me Might,Vunerab) getting stab,ret and also gicing them Weakness,Bleeds so why should I suffer for being preperred.

Most Necs smack critters or “flip” Minions pre-fight

But hey next time tell a Thief he cant Steal for 20sec

i found their request particularly stupid because they were at full guard stacks and i had none. and after they lost they claimed i cheated with full LF but they had no eyes to see that they had 5 stacks of power and vit from the wvw guard stacks while i had none.

There are no rules but starting with 100% would be completely unfair, imo already above 20% is faceroll but 30% might be acceptable too, half of what takes skill about necro is life force management, if you can just start with 100% then its just braindead duel lol, you dont need to consider life force traits, utilities, use skills appropriately, you can just straight in run in and faceroll anyone in 1v1…
0 life force is unfair tho, cause good necro never is without life force, so 20-30% should be norm cause thats with what you normally start in PVP.

moi.4398:

On a personnal note , that’s why I don’t like " duel " . People will swap traits / food / gear / uskills just for counter you after the first one .

I think that’s what makes dueling interesting.
Also, if they can beat you just by changing something maybe you should take a look at your own build and try to improve it.

moi.4398:

That’s not revelant of your real skill imo . Real 1v1 happens when 2 solo roamers meets . That’s it.

Is an arranged duel any less real than a random encounter?
And either way, who says that random roamer doesn’t run the exact counter build to yours that the arranged duelist would’ve changed to? Is this still skill related or just bad luck for you…?
Some builds are just better than others, I welcome a challenge like that, it means I get to learn and improve. But that is only possible when you get to repeat the encounter, not when you meet roamers who stomp you and never see them again.

In my opinion 20% is the “best” middle ground. Otherwise its like asking a Guardian to activate all their virtues before fighting you, or a Mesmer to put all their Shatter skills on CD, its absolutely ridiculous. The Necromancer profession is supposed to have to build up LF, so I don’t think starting at 100% is “fair” either; 20-50% is pretty reasonable.

Note that I’m only talking about “organized” duels, if I’m roaming in WvW or if I’m in sPvP I can guarantee you I’m building as much LF as possible before fights (I’ll often dagger 1 a downed non-warrior in sPvP just to fill up).

This isn’t a game designed around dueling or 1v1, it’s just for fun.

Stomp their face and gloat obnoxiously. If they are whining, increase your boisterous celebration ten times over.

EremiteAngel.9765:

but why cap a starting LF at 50% or 33% or 10% or 0%?

LF IS OUR NECRO SKILL. why do we have to handicap ourselves?

Why dont guardians set all their virtues on cooldown before the start of a duel?

Because 50% lifeforce is what some consider the proper ‘default’ state of the Necromancer class. As an analogy, compare a Warrior who starts combat with no Adrenaline to one with max Adrenaline, or a Mesmer with no illusions to one with three illusions (though the latter isn’t mechanically possible). The player who starts off a fight with his class resource maxed out will be at a considerable advantage over another who starts off without.

We are all used to the notion that Warriors and Mesmers by ‘default’ should start with no Adrenaline and Illusions respectively and build them up (since their class resources deplete with time), while the Thief should start with a full bar of Initiative and the Guardian with virtues fully recharged (since theirs regenerate with time).

For us Necros, it is a little tricky to pinpoint a ‘default’ state for our Lifeforce amount since our resource neither depletes (like the War and Mes) nor regenerates (like the Thief and Guardian) over time. Hence most settle for 50% as the ‘default’.

As soon as I meet a thief that won’t use his stealth until I have full life force, I will continue to kill pve mobs in order to have full LF when I enter a duel. If others want to neuter themselves voluntarily so as to promote a “fair” fight then so be it.

As for me, I’m in it to win it, and bringing a dull knife to a gun fight don’t bode to well for the guy with the knife. And if the fellow I am about to face requests I lose some LF, I just move on.

Tommyknocker.6089:

As soon as I meet a thief that won’t use his stealth until I have full life force, I will continue to kill pve mobs in order to have full LF when I enter a duel. If others want to neuter themselves voluntarily so as to promote a “fair” fight then so be it.

As for me, I’m in it to win it, and bringing a dull knife to a gun fight don’t bode to well for the guy with the knife. And if the fellow I am about to face requests I lose some LF, I just move on.

well said

100% Life Force should be an automatic win against anything pretty much, at which point you should probably ask yourself not if it’s fair, but why you are dueling in the first place?

• You won’t get respect for winning, just like someone who runs Moa or precasts traps on a ranger.

• You aren’t really practicing anything since the duel will be a faceroll.

If you are fine with winning unquestionably for the sake of winning, albeit with questionable means, then go ahead and do it. But I see no real reason for it. As a lot of people have mentioned having around 20-50% LF is deemed fair by most people and winning with that would garner a lot of more respect from your opponents.

Tommyknocker.6089:

As for me, I’m in it to win it, and bringing a dull knife to a gun fight don’t bode to well for the guy with the knife.

Except with 100% lf you’re the one with the gun.

EFWinters.5421:

…

Well said.

This is why I would really like to see an ooc state for life force that it returns to by default when one leaves combat whether it be 100% 0% or 50% I don’t really care, just then balance appropriately around it. The difference between 100% and 0% is so massive it really just makes 1v1 fights and even some group fights determined before they ever started.

if your dueling in wvw just duel with whatever amount of lifeforce you have depending on skill levels you will usually win your first one because roaming in wvw you usually have 100% lifeforce
if your playing a better or equally skilled player condi builds will really start to hurt at lower lf value however i find the power builds dont have this problem as much
after a couple of duels i usually know how much lifeforce i need to have a fair fight go with that

reopening this can of worms

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/DUSK-WvW-Necro-1vs1/first#post5099066

what are your thoughts now? what is fair amount to start LF at? even Holl’s coming duel against Chaos Archangel.

Reaper vs Chrono

How much LF should Holl start at?

Is the fair LF to start at the same in PvP and WvW?

Eh, it’s kinda like the unsung rules in dark souls PvP I guess.

Personally though if they want you to start with half life force, you should ask them to start with half initiative/1 virtues/2 attunemens on cool down etc. etc. that’s the way I look at it, though I don’t do much dueling. DS is how primary survival mechanic and the reason we don’t have acces to blocks, vigor, guards, or very reliable blinds after all.

EremiteAngel.9765:

Holl’s coming duel against Chaos Archangel.

When/where?

On topic, all of this would be so much less complicated if our life force would reset to something like ~25% out of combat.

EremiteAngel.9765:

Is the fair LF to start at the same in PvP and WvW?

25% PvP.
50% WvW.

If the enemy is a Mesmer I will demand 100% on the off chance that he’s running a PU build.

To be honest, in duels I try not to use death shroud if I can help it. Yes, it’s our main (only) defense, but even so, I figure if I can fight and win a good percentage of the time without life force, with it would really lock in the win.

That being said, I absolutely think we need to start with something like thirty-ish percent in pvp. Although, really, having a default level of fifty percent in every game mode would be very, very nice

Start with as much as you can , play to win . There is no such official rules about this .

moi.4398:

play to win

Not really the point of a duel.

Duels have rules to make them fair. Or it’s not so much a duel as a brawl. That’s why most do them with rules like 60s cooldown rule and no out of combat regen rule and in the case of Necros, DS limitations.

If the point of a duel is not to win what is it ? If people ask you to drain it before the fight it’s obviously because they want to deal with you more easily , they know how you can be a threat with 100% . Duels in gw2 have no rules . Duel is not a game mode , ther is nothing official . Btw i’m a huge fan of king of the hill and respect the DS limitation like everyone else . But my opinion is still the same . Sorry but duel is never fair , unless it"s a mirror build/class duel , there will allways be someone who has an advantage , because of traits / class etc etc .
It’s anet job to balance things for make them " fair " like you say , not people to handicap themselves .

The point of a duel is to practice with your build against a variety of other builds. The goal is to be as evenly matched as possible and go from there.

As an aside, pewpew rangers are a giant pain in my necromantic hiny to duel, but kitten it’s fun when you beat them

The point of a duel is to test your 1v1 ability, and get better as a player. If you just want to trash scrubs then roaming is for you, not dueling.

moi.4398:

If the point of a duel is not to win what is it ?

Well by the traditional definition it’s usually an arranged fight where both participants use similar weapons and fight as honourably as possible and win through skill and not by any means necessary. Think of it as a sport more than a fight. You aren’t allowed to do stuff like hit someone below the belt or spit someone in the eyes in sports like boxing for a reason.

I start with highest LF % i can. Since other classes can use all their abilities at full potential why couldn’t i ?

What you are describing is a good atmosphere between 2 or a group of people who just want to improve . And it’s a good thing . But you do that with your homies / friends . In WvW ( Obsidian Sanctum ) or in PVP ( King of the hill ) , most of people are here for win against people and fill their ego . That’s a reality .
" Point of a duel is to test your 1v1 ability , and get better as a player " . True and false . Duel make you indeed a better player , make you improve your mechanical skill , and learn you how to deal with others class . Yes . But if you want to get " better as a player as you said " you have to learn how to fight X opponent in any situations . Not just " that " situation where he plays with restrictions on his build or utilities etc . That’s why I think thoses kind of life force rules and others things are pretty ridiculous . If you want to get better you have to duel a necro in full life force ( if it’s his % when you engage him ) , you have to learn the best way to deal with it , you have to know how to manage the fight if not all your utilities are ready , it’s just practice for when you are in this situation . On the necro side , it’s not because i said you should start with as much as you can and play to win that I don’t think you must not learn how to fight with low or any life force . It’s for both sides .
We have different opinions , but I think " duel " is just something who is really hypocrite . People love to ask you to wait for their cooldown ( I have nothing wrong with that ) but during all this time there is nothing who block me for fill my DS.
What you said Bhawb is true and I agree with you on this point , but thoses " rules " people are using make your point invalid from my Pov . Duel is a good concept , but they should represent the more possible real fights situations if your main goal is to improve .

moi.4398:

you have to learn how to fight X opponent in any situations

And that’s not something you do in duels, which is an already established concept. Whether you consider it hypocritical or not is irrelevant. Learning how to fight any opponent in any situation is something you do in scrims with teams and stuff where the environment is actually the kind that you will be fighting in when you’re playing in tournaments and the utmost goal is to win the match.

moi.4398:

We have different opinions , but I think " duel " is just something who is really hypocrite.

The irony here is that throughout your entire post you’ve actually argued that you’re dueling for practice, but you should also try to win at all cost…?

This really sums it up, there’s not much more to say on the matter:

EFWinters.5421:

100% Life Force should be an automatic win against anything pretty much, at which point you should probably ask yourself not if it’s fair, but why you are dueling in the first place?

• You won’t get respect for winning, just like someone who runs Moa or precasts traps on a ranger.

• You aren’t really practicing anything since the duel will be a faceroll.

If you are fine with winning unquestionably for the sake of winning, albeit with questionable means, then go ahead and do it. But I see no real reason for it. As a lot of people have mentioned having around 20-50% LF is deemed fair by most people and winning with that would garner a lot of more respect from your opponents.

Aktium.9506:

moi.4398:

you have to learn how to fight X opponent in any situations

something you do in scrims with teams and stuff where the environment is actually the kind that you will be fighting in when you’re playing in tournaments and the utmost goal is to win the match.

Or it’s just play the game ? :v
When you are talking about duel you are talking about something who is not in guild wars 2 . There is no duel game mode in this game . 1v1 happens , not " duel " . Duel means nothing in this game .
Well , when I answered in this thread it was just about start with as much life force as you can . I don’t want to argue more on this because people have a billion differents opinions about " duel " simply because arena net never stated anything about this . If tomorrow there is a patch where LF is automatically filled to 50% ooc what will you do ?
Anyway if the game allow you to use something , you should use it . The game makes the rules , not you . At the end you will just keep duel with your friend with your rules and i’ll keep my business also . This discussion has no end . Have fun in game

flow.6043:

moi.4398:

We have different opinions , but I think " duel " is just something who is really hypocrite.

The irony here is that throughout your entire post you’ve actually argued that you’re dueling for practice, but you should also try to win at all cost…?

This really sums it up, there’s not much more to say on the matter:

EFWinters.5421:

100% Life Force should be an automatic win against anything pretty much, at which point you should probably ask yourself not if it’s fair, but why you are dueling in the first place?

• You won’t get respect for winning, just like someone who runs Moa or precasts traps on a ranger.

• You aren’t really practicing anything since the duel will be a faceroll.

If you are fine with winning unquestionably for the sake of winning, albeit with questionable means, then go ahead and do it. But I see no real reason for it. As a lot of people have mentioned having around 20-50% LF is deemed fair by most people and winning with that would garner a lot of more respect from your opponents.

Read my previous post please … I said black on white that you MUST learn how to fight no matter how much LF you have . Don’t quote just what you want to read please . I have the feeling you guys don’t understand what i’m trying to say . It’s not about faceroll people with 100% or not . If you really want to know what is my opinion about how many % of lf I need in order to not be handicaped in 1v1 ? I say 25% . It doesn’t change the fact I still think you should start with whatever YOU want

moi.4398:

When you are talking about duel you are talking about something who is not in guild wars 2 . There is no duel game mode in this game . 1v1 happens , not " duel " . Duel means nothing in this game .

Why does it have to be an official game mode to matter? GvG’s and dungeon speedruns aren’t official ways to play the game either but they still matter.