Guild Wars 2

I know some Necros don’t like to talk about it because people use it as a justification of why Necros are OP, but after playing some other classes, Necro has one of the best class mechanics, imo (I think Thief is up there too).

There’s something so satisfying about running into a suicide situation, dropping to 10% and popping into DS to make your great escape. Much moreso than it would be having more mitigation or big piles of bonus health. I think it comes from a lot of things, the “skill” aspect (even if it’s just hitting F1) of getting out of dangerous situations, the very real danger of death if you mess up, and the resource mechanics of life force itself.

I like the idea of my life bar as a resource, this was true with GW1 necros as well (I played a Warlock in WoW, who could tap their HP for mana, as well), and I think that mechanic is somewhat preserved with Death Shroud, although life force feels more like bonus health, as opposed to taking directly from your health pool.

Maybe GW2 would benefit from more resource management systems, I think that’s why I like thief and necro class mechanics best. Warriors is also a resource but feels more lackluster.

It is awesome, yes, and if it didn’t have the problem of directly countering our other defensive mechanics, like healing, I’d say it is easily the best profession mechanic in the game (frankly I still think it is).

I enjoy the on demand access to the additional skills more than the additional health bar. The “tanking” aspect of it is what makes it so hard to balance, and why the class suffers on so many other fronts around alternative survival skills, which are clunky at best.

The management of it is interesting too, but our choices for ways to use that LF and ways to refill it, are not as forthcoming as they should be, and it makes the class skill feel far less impactful than others.

For instance I would be prefectly fine if going into DS caused you to take 50% less damage, as opposed to having another life bar, and ran out after a max of 10 seconds… The idea of life force just seems odd to me since we cannot use the LF to do big things, like sack 30% for some additional short term effect etc.

I can’t even imagine what this game would be like if I could sack some percentage of my LF to give my group a damage buff for example.

Best concept, one of the worst executions, sadly like half the game…

I dub the negative nancy!

Andele.1306:

Best concept, one of the worst executions, sadly like half the game…

This…

But honestly i think some more iterations and DS would really nice. It is already much better than the first versions (Down state and Lifeblast damage dependend on LF).

I think the biggest thing though is to change DS in such a way that healing is not pointless in DS (however it will be implemented).

Too true, Andele. Shame they still get enough right to make it worth playing!

And yes, it’s implementation has certainly been far too clunky, I remember it in beta as well the problems were even worse…does protection even work in DS?

I just made this topic after realizing how fun it was making suicide missions with no defensive gear and succeeding.

btw, thinking back, what I like about thieves class mechanic is their initiative as a resource, I had actually completely forgotten about Steal :x

Andele.1306:

Best concept, one of the worst executions, sadly like half the game…

Seriously, why do you even play this game? Logic dictates that if one dislikes something, one will stop doing that something.

I personally think Deathshroud is brilliant, and it is very well executed, like 99% of this game. I’m not sure where I stand with healing being allowed in DS, all I know is that it would kick butt :P .
Using and managing Deathshroud is an art, and it takes skill. I’ve fought very few Necros who had good Deathshroud management. Those that did were a very big pain to kill.

When I first started playing I didn’t use Death Shroud much, and didn’t use it well when I did. I was an idiot.

MethaneGas.8357:

Andele.1306:

Best concept, one of the worst executions, sadly like half the game…

Seriously, why do you even play this game? Logic dictates that if one dislikes something, one will stop doing that something.

I personally think Deathshroud is brilliant, and it is very well executed, like 99% of this game. I’m not sure where I stand with healing being allowed in DS, all I know is that it would kick butt :P .
Using and managing Deathshroud is an art, and it takes skill. I’ve fought very few Necros who had good Deathshroud management. Those that did were a very big pain to kill.

Oh i do love the game (mostly for a combination of lore and kinda gripping that old old wow feel in terms of progress one makes), just FROM A OBJECTIVE STANDPOINT the fact that half of our utilities didnt work in DS and right now a fourth still dont work properly, that its scaling and applied effects with it are utter chaos, how Life Blast (and multiple other projectiles starting outside player hitbox) misses if enemy is in 110~ range, how the freaking tooltip of DS (traited with near to death) is still bugged/written incorrectly, etc, etc so that i dont start doing a list of all the mechanical/scripting errors; ITS IMPLEMENTATION IS BAD.

And yeah in concept proper DS usage is a art form, tho any necro who has played long enough or knows at least knows its current functionality will confirm my previous statement.

Only the good necros will make use out of ds instead of complaining.

Not to mention the day they added Tainted Shackles. What a great buff!

It’s good but it could use either some form of scaling or let heals go to our real hp in shroud or hell let heals give us lf.

Mega Skeleton.8259:

Too true, Andele. Shame they still get enough right to make it worth playing!

And yes, it’s implementation has certainly been far too clunky, I remember it in beta as well the problems were even worse…does protection even work in DS?

I just made this topic after realizing how fun it was making suicide missions with no defensive gear and succeeding.

Your second and third statements sort of echo a conversation I had with an experienced Guildie who plays necro exclusively. While necros have their issues, he also described how DS is extremely powerful and should actually get some more limitations on use or abilities. Of course, he described the typical situation in a MMO where PVP and PVE game elements share the same platform. Attempts to balance abilities for one can potentially make the other OP or nerfed.

The DS health bar is not only awesome but questionably OPed, simply because it’s another layer of damage mitigation like no other profession has access to in the game. Does protection work with DS? I think the real question is if protection and other survival buffs SHOULD work with DS.

All the buffs work on DS except for regeneration, unless something that changed in the months after all the testing was done on that after the downed state and deathshroud numbers change.

Obtena.7952:

Your second and third statements sort of echo a conversation I had with an experienced Guildie who plays necro exclusively. While necros have their issues, he also described how DS is extremely powerful and should actually get some more limitations on use or abilities. Of course, he described the typical situation in a MMO where PVP and PVE game elements share the same platform. Attempts to balance abilities for one can potentially make the other OP or nerfed.

The DS health bar is not only awesome but questionably OPed, simply because it’s another layer of damage mitigation like no other profession has access to in the game. Does protection work with DS? I think the real question is if protection and other survival buffs SHOULD work with DS.

Technically, true, tho, in practical usage, because of actually reasonable power balance of necros not having any free teleports/mobility nor any evasion/block moves (or what would for example in WoW be pvp trinket effects), its potential is flattened across the profession allowing even mathematically/numerically op hp and damage mitigation over hp, because there is no chance/option to do a full block/evasion over the normal/across the board 2 dodges.

On in magic turns, a skill which lets you draw 3 cards for 4 mana is op (average draw power curve effect being 2 mana pre 1 card or 1 mana with delayed +1 effect), but if it also costs 3 life, its actually balanced.

Andele.1306:

Oh i do love the game (mostly for a combination of lore and kinda gripping that old old wow feel in terms of progress one makes), just FROM A OBJECTIVE STANDPOINT the fact that half of our utilities didnt work in DS and right now a fourth still dont work properly, that its scaling and applied effects with it are utter chaos, how Life Blast (and multiple other projectiles starting outside player hitbox) misses if enemy is in 110~ range, how the freaking tooltip of DS (traited with near to death) is still bugged/written incorrectly, etc, etc so that i dont start doing a list of all the mechanical/scripting errors; ITS IMPLEMENTATION IS BAD.

You love the game and yet I have never heard anything positive from you… what a conundrum. If you like lore there’s plenty of GW books out there.
-The fact that the utilities don’t work in DS is quite simple. That’s how it works. You simply need to get over that. It sure as hell doesn’t bother me. It would be OP if you could use utilities in DS, hands down. You could pop spectral armor… wurm… spectral wall, spectral walk, plague signet while IN deathshroud…. it would make Necros literally too tanky and powerful, and denying that is foolish. You and me both know that. Onto the next question.
-You worry too much about minor details as opposed to just playing the game. That’s my take on that.

Andele.1306:

And yeah in concept proper DS usage is a art form, tho any necro who has played long enough or knows at least knows its current functionality will confirm my previous statement.

So I’m a Necro that hasn’t played enough or doesn’t know much, right? Well… evidence would suggest otherwise. Once again, Andele, check your facts.

Technically, true, tho, in practical usage, because of actually reasonable power balance of necros not having any free teleports/mobility nor any evasion/block moves

No teleports or mobility? Once again, un-true. Simply untrue. I’m sorry, I wouldn’t link a video out of nowhere, but I have to. I think there’s no other way.

http://youtu.be/JTUXJl67hPA
THAT, is mobile. When you make a statement like “necros have no teleports/mobility” you are literally saying “they have no mobility and teleports”. A false statement.
-It is true that Necros have no blocks or evading moves but they do have lots of control skills which serve a similar purpose. I won’t get into detail.

Just one problem: Your life bar really doesn’t recuperate as a necro. The theory behind death shroud and attrition is that you bounce between them, constantly using whichever is higher. But you can’t heal in death shroud, so that doesn’t work. On top of that, the necro’s self-healing abilities are all rather weak outside of the heal skill. Necros are actually the class that is weakest to attrition when it is supposed to be our strong suit.

Andele.1306:

-snip-

MethaneGas.8357:

It is true that Necros have no blocks or evading moves but they do have lots of control skills which serve a similar purpose. I won’t get into detail.

I will!

Necro has some defense with fears and blinds. A single fear can turn the tide of a fight. If used at the right time, it can save your butt from sure death. The blinds from Plague, Well of Darkness, and Deathly Swarm can also be life saving (not to mention the fact that you can add a chill every time you blind an enemy).

Which brings me to my next point that necro can be an excellent kiter because of the easy access to very long cripples and chills. Combine that with Spectral Walk and necro can be very difficult to catch. Torment and immobilize could also be added to this, but they aren’t as abundant as chill and cripple

As for whether or not DS is balanced, I think it’s in a pretty good spot. A well played necro can be extremely difficult to kill, as MethaneGas demonstrated in the video he linked.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Just one problem: Your life bar really doesn’t recuperate as a necro. The theory behind death shroud and attrition is that you bounce between them, constantly using whichever is higher. But you can’t heal in death shroud, so that doesn’t work. On top of that, the necro’s self-healing abilities are all rather weak outside of the heal skill. Necros are actually the class that is weakest to attrition when it is supposed to be our strong suit.

I beg to differ. If your health is low or you get condi bombed, you can easily pop into DS and let all that damage tick on your life force instead of your actual health while you wait on your heal or cleanse to come off CD. If you get the heal off, you then have plenty of health to build more life force so you can go back into DS. Healing in DS would be completely overpowered. As much as I would love to heal my necro allies on my ele when they are running around as a black mass, it would simply be too strong. DS management, as stated previously in this thread, is an art. A necro who does the dance well is rewarded.

Man, the kitten measuring contests in every single thread are kinda getting out of control guys. Even I’m too lazy to read this all, and I’m pretty maniacal about reading everything posted here.

Bhawb.7408:

Man, the kitten measuring contests in every single thread are kinda getting out of control guys.

Stop?

I’m sorry Bhawb. I’m always up for having a nice, clean debate but when people ride in here, filled with wrong information and call others ignorant idiots… I can’t sit still. I think a wall of text with proper evidence is sometimes the best way xD I’ll limit it next time, I swear

Okay, well if that’s done, here’s another awesome thing about DS! We have so many traits that benefit it, do any other classes have as many traits that affect their class mechanic?

Blood Magic
Deathly Invigoration – Heal in an area when you leave death shroud.

Curses
Furious Demise – Gain fury when entering Death Shroud.
Weakening Shroud – Cast Enfeeble when entering death shroud.

Death Magic
Death Shiver – Constantly apply vulnerability to nearby foes while in death shroud.
Shrouded Removal – Lose a condition when you enter death shroud.

Soul Reaping
Each point in Soul Reaping increases the Life force pool by 5%.
Deathly Perception – Increases critical-hit chance while in death shroud.
Foot in the Grave – Gain stability when you enter death shroud.
Near to Death – Reduces recharge on Death Shroud.
Speed of Shadows – Increases movement speed while in death shroud.
Vital Persistence – Life force drains slower while in death shroud.
Path of Midnight – Reduces recharge on death shroud skills.
Spite
Spiteful Spirit – Gain retaliation when entering death shroud.

Methane, what armor are you using in that build? only showed the runes in the editor.

Mega Skeleton.8259:

Okay, well if that’s done, here’s another awesome thing about DS! We have so many traits that benefit it…

Excellent point!

Mega Skeleton.8259:

do any other classes have as many traits that affect their class mechanic?

Depends on the profession, but yes. Rangers have an ungodly amount of traits that affect their mechanic, and then on the other end of the spectrum you have like Engineers with 3 traits. I think we’re on the higher range, especially if you consider all the lifeblast and assorted other DS-skill traits, and I’d certainly say that we have some of the more interesting ones.

Overall my only complain with DS is that it directly interferes with an entire trait line of ours. If it didn’t do that, I’d love it completely. It is by far my favorite profession mechanic though.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Just one problem: Your life bar really doesn’t recuperate as a necro. The theory behind death shroud and attrition is that you bounce between them, constantly using whichever is higher. But you can’t heal in death shroud, so that doesn’t work. On top of that, the necro’s self-healing abilities are all rather weak outside of the heal skill. Necros are actually the class that is weakest to attrition when it is supposed to be our strong suit.

This,
Its this very reason I tend to pop into deathshroud early into a fight. Not risking health dropping. If you hit into DS while health is low, there’s a very real chance when you come out of it, you’re goose. (unless you trait for healing, but thats really not worthwhile).

It’s really frustrating to not be able to take anything from your group healing..or if you decided to go lifesteal from that. While using DS, a very important mechanic to our class.

What I;d like to know is if the devs ever plan on looking into it, or if it’s coding difficulty. Or if they’re actually happy with us not being able to heal.

It wouldn’t surprise me if it’s a little of both. Perhaps not coding difficulty, but they don’t want to unbalance Necros, so they devote resources to other things.

Being able to come out of DS at full HP would be easy enough, or near enough to mostly recharge Life Force before DS comes ups again; That’s a little ridiculous for PvP.

Mega Skeleton.8259:

It wouldn’t surprise me if it’s a little of both. Perhaps not coding difficulty, but they don’t want to unbalance Necros, so they devote resources to other things.

Being able to come out of DS at full HP would be easy enough, or near enough to mostly recharge Life Force before DS comes ups again; That’s a little ridiculous for PvP.

As long as we dont have a 40-60s cooldown skill with a 5-7.5s long stability which can be traited for 20s cdr and/or DS gets shade back (but all cc still interrupts currently cast skill), it wouldnt unbalance necro, if we do get then DS doesnt need healing after all (tho it would be cool if we could trait to make all healing we would recieve in DS be split in a aoe to our allies).

how can it be coding difficulty if we have a trait that heals into deathshroud?

Also healing in DS would hardly be OP. I mean every other class kan heal during their defense. stances, evades ,stealth, block,… all allow healing but deathshroud doesn’t? Sounds not really fair.

I think it should be traitable to have drain type heals heal you in DS, but not other ones, to keep flavour, but also to improve drains. I love the drains, since if you trait for many you do gain significant regen, but it’s still kind of weird that they are sort of disabled once you go into DS.

As for DS itself I think it’s really nice. Initially I didn’t care for it too much, but really I think it is one of the better class mechanics. Quirky, of course, and not perfect but its design is fairly sound.

Improving drain is hard. All of our drains would need to have ICDs along with the buffed damage/healing. The only reason you can spam drain (vamp prec, vamp, vamp rituals) is because they do such little drain. The second you have them do “real” healing or damage you have to place an ICD or they are too difficult to balance without changing everything else.

But drains working in DS would be a very nice QOL. I say QOL because I hate wasting the ticks in DS but it’s not earth shattering. Sure bonus damage, but I don’t like wasting half of a skill because of a class mechanic. I would suggest going as far as allowing all boon and siphons to effect DS. Make it to where only direct healing doesn’t work. Not sure about balance since you can always have regen from Staff#2.

Damaein.6413:

Improving drain is hard. All of our drains would need to have ICDs along with the buffed damage/healing. The only reason you can spam drain (vamp prec, vamp, vamp rituals) is because they do such little drain. The second you have them do “real” healing or damage you have to place an ICD or they are too difficult to balance without changing everything else.

No, they really aren’t. ICD’s are completely unecessary to balance siphons because of a number of factors.

1. They inherently have counterplay. The necro must be hitting an opponent to siphon anything at all. Kiting, blinds, blocks, evades, stuns, dazes, fears, and invulnerabilities are all effective methods at shutting down siphoning.

2. They require action from the Necro. Unlike a Warrior, the necro can’t just regen health with siphons. He must actually be doing things. If he tries to delay for health regen, it doesn’t work.

3. Siphons are all inherently limited. You can’t possibly siphon faster than your attack speed, which is easily calculable. The higher risk weapons have the higher attack speeds, which works out effectively to keep the sustain where it’s really needed. Main hand dagger can’t even kite, which is why it has the highest sustain of any of our weapons.

4. Siphons are not done in a vaccuum. You cannot siphon from enemies that aren’t there. Thus, if you’re using AoE to siphon from multiple foes, it means you have multiple foes.

But drains working in DS would be a very nice QOL. I say QOL because I hate wasting the ticks in DS but it’s not earth shattering. Sure bonus damage, but I don’t like wasting half of a skill because of a class mechanic. I would suggest going as far as allowing all boon and siphons to effect DS. Make it to where only direct healing doesn’t work. Not sure about balance since you can always have regen from Staff#2.

Realistically speaking, all of our “heal when X” traits need to function in Death Shroud (except Transfusion) and the Regeneration boon does as well. Right now, if a necro goes into Death Shroud with Regeneration on him, it actually becomes a liability due to particular necro/thief/mesmer skills and trait like Destruction of the Empowered. Boons should never be purely negative, but for necros in death shroud, Regeneration is.

I suspect that OP runs his Necomancer in big WvW zergs. That’s the only way his post makes sense.

“Dropping to 10% and making an escape.” How are you supposed to escape with no mobility kills and limited swiftness? That 10% health didn’t regen either, you still need to heal up….

Andele.1306:

Obtena.7952:

Your second and third statements sort of echo a conversation I had with an experienced Guildie who plays necro exclusively. While necros have their issues, he also described how DS is extremely powerful and should actually get some more limitations on use or abilities. Of course, he described the typical situation in a MMO where PVP and PVE game elements share the same platform. Attempts to balance abilities for one can potentially make the other OP or nerfed.

The DS health bar is not only awesome but questionably OPed, simply because it’s another layer of damage mitigation like no other profession has access to in the game. Does protection work with DS? I think the real question is if protection and other survival buffs SHOULD work with DS.

Technically, true, tho, in practical usage, because of actually reasonable power balance of necros not having any free teleports/mobility nor any evasion/block moves (or what would for example in WoW be pvp trinket effects), its potential is flattened across the profession allowing even mathematically/numerically op hp and damage mitigation over hp, because there is no chance/option to do a full block/evasion over the normal/across the board 2 dodges.

While there isn’t much value in arguing the point, you seem to have completely ignored many soft CC effects that work against your argument. I raised the same point with my necro friend as you just did. He quickly urged me to review the number of soft CC effects that are present on just the weapon and DS skills alone. I believe that exercising these skills to control the fight are the things that separate scrubs from good PVPers. Anyone can hit Aegis if they have it to prevent a hit. Not everyone knows when to use a cripple or a fear at the correct time.

Good use of these CC skills + traiting for DS awesomeness is what makes a PVP necro. Combine that with smart choice of gear to optimize DS uptime, it seems like a free ride.

Obtena.7952:

Andele.1306:

Obtena.7952:

Your second and third statements sort of echo a conversation I had with an experienced Guildie who plays necro exclusively. While necros have their issues, he also described how DS is extremely powerful and should actually get some more limitations on use or abilities. Of course, he described the typical situation in a MMO where PVP and PVE game elements share the same platform. Attempts to balance abilities for one can potentially make the other OP or nerfed.

The DS health bar is not only awesome but questionably OPed, simply because it’s another layer of damage mitigation like no other profession has access to in the game. Does protection work with DS? I think the real question is if protection and other survival buffs SHOULD work with DS.

Technically, true, tho, in practical usage, because of actually reasonable power balance of necros not having any free teleports/mobility nor any evasion/block moves (or what would for example in WoW be pvp trinket effects), its potential is flattened across the profession allowing even mathematically/numerically op hp and damage mitigation over hp, because there is no chance/option to do a full block/evasion over the normal/across the board 2 dodges.

While there isn’t much value in arguing the point, you seem to have completely ignored many soft CC effects that work against your argument. I raised the same point with my necro friend as you just did. He quickly urged me to review the number of soft CC effects that are present on just the weapon and DS skills alone. I believe that exercising these skills to control the fight are the things that separate scrubs from good PVPers. Anyone can hit Aegis if they have it to prevent a hit. Not everyone knows when to use a cripple or a fear at the correct time.

Good use of these CC skills + traiting for DS awesomeness is what makes a PVP necro. Combine that with smart choice of gear to optimize DS uptime, it seems like a free ride.

Since people constantly bring this point up and refuse to actually look at empirical evidence themselves, i present you the URLS of cc:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fear
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blind – tho tech not cc, it is able to stop a attack if improperly reacted on
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Chilled
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Crippled
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Immobilized
wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Daze
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Knockback
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Knockdown
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Launch
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pull
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stun

ALL professions end up with average 8 solt and 3 hard cc across average 17 skills they got, with 4 and 3 additional variance depending on build choices.
SO NO, soft CC, just as innate 2 dodges DO NOT COUNT BECAUSE EVERYONE CAN AND DOES HAVE THEM ACROSS ALL (proper) BUILDS!

The links aren’t necessary and they don’t make your case. At best, your making a sensational argument. I think the claim that the DS is balanced because everyone gets soft and hard CC and regular evades in a proper PVP build … with exception to Necro is far fetched. The real question is if all of those things are needed to constitute a ‘good’ PVP build … I don’t believe they do. If they did, there would really only be a couple of good-performing PVP builds for specific classes. That’s not the case.

Furthermore, I doubt any other seasoned PVPer wouldn’t acknowledge a second life with a whole set of unique skills isn’t better than any other professions’ ‘get our of jail free’ cards.

While there is some element of increased difficulty with a missing get out of jail free card, that doesn’t change the significance DS can have in PVP with a Necro … and hence, acknowledging what the OP of the thread is actually recognizing.

Obtena.7952:

The links aren’t necessary and they don’t make your case. At best, your making a sensational argument. I think the claim that the DS is balanced because everyone gets soft and hard CC and regular evades … with exception to Necro is far fetched. I doubt any other seasoned PVPer wouldn’t acknowledge a second life with a whole set of unique skills isn’t better than any other professions’ ‘get our of jail free’ cards.

While there is some element of increased difficulty with a missing get out of jail free card, that doesn’t change the significance DS can have in PVP with a Necro … and hence, acknowledging what the OP of the thread is actually recognizing.

First of all, i was just refuting people who say “necro having no evade moves nor free teleports is ok because they got more soft cc” which is plain false

As for the DS actually even being a second life bar, one could argue for it ONLY IF IT ACTUALLY: It didnt degenerate, it regenerated out of combat and it didnt stop heals.
From release to right now, anyone calling DS a second life bar for combat, severely overstates its functionality.

I understand what you were refuting … that is my response to it. There is nothing ‘false’ about making a claim that lacking what you call evade moves is OK. It’s no deficiency to lack those things on a Necro anymore than it is for a Guardian to lack mobility or runspeed … it’s a player issue, not a profession issue. It’s about recognizing what the profession can and can’t do and the appropriate skills. Necro can’t do ‘evade moves’ does not equate to mean that DS isn’t OP.

It seems you aren’t recognizing how DS is even better than a second life bar. Again, the best get out of jail free card for any profession that exists and learning to take the most of it along with the regular tools you have is a very strong opponent.

What you are suggesting would make DS absolutely ridiculous. While I don’t know of the capability of the OP, my own fair share of experience with, along and against the profession suggests what is been eluded to in this thread isn’t too far from the mark.

Obtena.7952:

I understand what you were refuting … that is my response to it. There is nothing ‘false’ about making a claim that lacking what you call evade moves is OK. It’s no deficiency to lack those things on a Necro anymore than it is for a Guardian to lack mobility or runspeed … it’s a player issue, not a profession issue. It’s about recognizing what the profession can and can’t do and the appropriate skills. Necro can’t do ‘evade moves’ does not equate to mean that DS isn’t OP.

It seems you aren’t recognizing how DS is even better than a second life bar. Again, the best get out of jail free card for any profession that exists and learning to take the most of it along with the regular tools you have is a very strong opponent.

What you are suggesting would make DS absolutely ridiculous. While I don’t know of the capability of the OP, my own fair share of experience with, along and against the profession suggests what is been eluded to in this thread isn’t too far from the mark.

The best “get out of jail free” card would actually get you out of jail. Death Shroud can’t do that. It lets you get medical treatment for that stab wound you got in the cafeteria brawl, but you’re still stuck in there for the whole sentence. Other professions have “get out of jail free cards” that actually can get them out of trouble.

It’s a strong mechanic, yes, but it in no way measures up to actual active defenses.

Frankly, the biggest thing people are missing is that death shroud is all the defense we have that other professions do not. Its not like Necromancer has a bunch of blocks, better defensive conditions, bunch of dodges/evades, and all this other stuff. The only thing we have that other people do not is a massive HP pool, which shows its limitations the second you aren’t able to play a build or game mode that doesn’t refill it constantly.

You can’t look at Death Shroud as a defensive mechanic without considering all the active defense it effectively keeps away from us. Is it still pretty cool to be able to face tank things that other professions have to wuss out of and dodge? Yes, definitely. But it is fairly rare that we can fake tank and still have any kind of presence, whereas other professions can go full zerker and still have a lot of active defense.

Now, this is all fixable with “thematic” active defenses (like actually getting good instant blinds), and/or improving our ability to face tank what other people would avoid while still having either offensive, defensive, or supportive presence.

Bhawb.7408:

Frankly, the biggest thing people are missing is that death shroud is all the defense we have that other professions do not. Its not like Necromancer has a bunch of blocks, better defensive conditions, bunch of dodges/evades, and all this other stuff. The only thing we have that other people do not is a massive HP pool, which shows its limitations the second you aren’t able to play a build or game mode that doesn’t refill it constantly.

You can’t look at Death Shroud as a defensive mechanic without considering all the active defense it effectively keeps away from us. Is it still pretty cool to be able to face tank things that other professions have to wuss out of and dodge? Yes, definitely. But it is fairly rare that we can fake tank and still have any kind of presence, whereas other professions can go full zerker and still have a lot of active defense.

Now, this is all fixable with “thematic” active defenses (like actually getting good instant blinds), and/or improving our ability to face tank what other people would avoid while still having either offensive, defensive, or supportive presence.

To make a easy comparison, on the fight against liadri with the Exhausted gambid, every other profession has a skill under 30 s cooldown which lets them block shadowfall or a under 15s cooldown skill which lets them evade it, necros dont have either and the additional 12-20k depending on build doesnt actually do anything against a 130k hit.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Obtena.7952:

I understand what you were refuting … that is my response to it. There is nothing ‘false’ about making a claim that lacking what you call evade moves is OK. It’s no deficiency to lack those things on a Necro anymore than it is for a Guardian to lack mobility or runspeed … it’s a player issue, not a profession issue. It’s about recognizing what the profession can and can’t do and the appropriate skills. Necro can’t do ‘evade moves’ does not equate to mean that DS isn’t OP.

It seems you aren’t recognizing how DS is even better than a second life bar. Again, the best get out of jail free card for any profession that exists and learning to take the most of it along with the regular tools you have is a very strong opponent.

What you are suggesting would make DS absolutely ridiculous. While I don’t know of the capability of the OP, my own fair share of experience with, along and against the profession suggests what is been eluded to in this thread isn’t too far from the mark.

The best “get out of jail free” card would actually get you out of jail. Death Shroud can’t do that.

Neither does any of the hard CC things the previous poster was referring to that Necro’s don’t have, making DS strength justified in his eyes. Aegis, teleports, etc… those are temporary reprieves. Those are the skills I’m referring to a out of jail free. DS is not that; It’s much more than any of those things.

Don’t misunderstand, I’m not advocating DS get nerfed or something but I think people need to recognize it for what it is like the OP is suggesting.

BTW, despite it being off topic:

I understand what you were refuting … that is my response to it. There is nothing ‘false’ about making a claim that lacking what you call evade moves is OK. It’s no deficiency to lack those things on a Necro anymore than it is for a Guardian to lack mobility or runspeed …

Guards can very easily have perma swiftness with a shout build and using a supplementary lootstick (that is, 4 points and 2 traits which would be taken either way for permanent aoe swiftness), kinda same for mesmer, but they really need to cripple themselves to get that MS and it relies on a external source thus i wouldnt count it, necros dont even have the OPTION to sacrifice everything for high block/evades or even reliable long term cc defense.

Andele.1306:

Since people constantly bring this point up and refuse to actually look at empirical evidence themselves… ALL professions end up with average 8 solt and 3 hard cc across average 17 skills they got…
SO NO, soft CC, just as innate 2 dodges DO NOT COUNT BECAUSE EVERYONE CAN AND DOES HAVE THEM ACROSS ALL (proper) BUILDS!

- TL;DR for Bhawb at the bottom <3 -

Empirical evidence is only valuable if you actually interpret the data instead of just mindlessly counting. Yes, all classes have access to CC- duh. However, not all CC is equal and there are too many variables for it to be so simple.

According to the actual, interpreted data, necro has more viable and frequently used chills. Of course, your post is not only about chill, but this is just an example of how absolutely meaningless the numbers you’re espousing as the be-all and end-all actually are.

TL;DR: Before you rant and rave about how “ALL CLASSES HAVE THESE,” you should first realize that every class is unique. Warrior has more stuns than necro. Guardian has more blocks than necro. Thief has more evades than necro. But necro has a lot of great things that those classes don’t have. In this particular scenario, necro has more soft CC and better soft CC than all of those classes. You’re comparing apples to oranges. Nothing you say will change the fact that necro’s superior utilization of soft CC (in combination with DS) makes it an exceptional kiting class with plenty of defense to survive some of the worst situations. You are making things far too simple when the balance in this game is actually quite complex.

Andele.1306:

To make a easy comparison, on the fight against liadri with the Exhausted gambid, every other profession has a skill under 30 s cooldown which lets them block shadowfall or a under 15s cooldown skill which lets them evade it, necros dont have either and the additional 12-20k depending on build doesnt actually do anything against a 130k hit.

That doesn’t make sense. You compare one fight, one tiny fraction of the game (i.e. fighting Liadri with Exhausted Gambit —> No endurance --> No dodging —> basically taking out a HUGE aspect of actual in-game combat) and then make claims that we need blocks and evades? Really?

As for your previous argument that CC/Soft CC (of which Necro has plenty) does not make up for Necro defense. Let’s say that there’s a group of enemies, melee. You cast staff #3 and Dark Path into them, then dodge away from them or fear them. They move 66% slower and they can’t catch up to you. If they can’t catch up, they can’t deal damage. Plain and simple. Is that not, in a way, similar to having a leap, or a teleport, but backwards? It is not YOU who is quick, it’s THEM who are slow. You can compare other classes’ CC/soft CC all you want but in practice, a warrior, guardian, mesmer, etc. could never achieve a similar result with such ease i.e. effortlessly (with 2 skills, one which is actually innate to the class —> Dark Path) chill a group of enemies – while still maintaining a reasonable kiting distance between you and the attacker.

Guards can very easily have perma swiftness with a shout build and using a supplementary lootstick (that is, 4 points and 2 traits which would be taken either way for permanent aoe swiftness),

Oh… so now perma swiftness is mobility? I thought only “free” point-click teleports were considered mobility. (P.s. Necro can maintain perma swiftness with Spectral walk and warhorn, and if not that, there’s always runes of Traveler or Speed).

necros dont even have the OPTION to sacrifice everything for high block/evades or even reliable long term cc defense.

You don’t NEED long term CC defense.
1) Because it’s a team oriented game.
2) Because CC rarely equates to perma-CC – a CC train can be broken by the application of stability, even for a short duration, such as 3 secs (or simply stun break). So, for a Necro to sacrifice everything for high survivability (Which I’m guessing you are referring to, as that’s what evades/blocks entail), you trait 30 into Soul Reaping, along with any other traitline with defense, along with defensive runes, sigils, spectral, etc. In other words, you’ll be an uber tank and thus, very survivable.

My final point. The only reason you’d NEED the blocks/evades is for stuff like Liadri, which I think is the root for all your arguments. Liadri, however, is a solo encounter, and I don’t think that’s a fair stance to argue from. Liadri is only one aspect of the game (You also referred to the Exhaustion gambit – no dodge – which further narrows down the small aspect of the game that you were already referring to). Liadri (with the gambit) is only a miniscule aspect of PvE. PvE is only 1/3 of the whole game, so the point from which you are arguing from is incredibly narrow. You may be referring to bosses in dungeons, or this or that, but you are arguing from a solo perspective. The game never was, and never will be balanced around 1v1s.

TL;DR: Addressing CC / Soft CC and damage mitigation. Addressing the fault at looking at the game as if it did not contain any dodges, while also looking at the game as if it were a 1 v 1 or 1 v x.

Andele.1306:

BTW, despite it being off topic:

I understand what you were refuting … that is my response to it. There is nothing ‘false’ about making a claim that lacking what you call evade moves is OK. It’s no deficiency to lack those things on a Necro anymore than it is for a Guardian to lack mobility or runspeed …

Guards can very easily have perma swiftness with a shout build and using a supplementary lootstick ….

Way to miss the point … Mobility and speed is not part of the Guardian class concept just like evade moves aren’t part of the Necro one, even if you can concoct a build that gives perma swiftness. Even if the comparison doesn’t make sense to you, that doesn’t make me any less incorrect about how strong DS is.

TakeCare.3182:

~ bunch of wannabe math bullkitten ~

Taking as much cc as possible pre build:

Necro (14): Dark Path, Doom, Tshackles, Chillblains, Reapers Mark, Dark Pact, Veil of Doom, Locust Swarm, Spectral Grasp, Spectral Wall, Bone Fiend, Rigor Mortis, Flesh Golem, Charge

Ele (14) :Frozen Burst, Frozen Aura, Shocking Aura, Updraft, Ring of Earth, Magnetic Grip, Earthquake, Churning Earth, Wind Blast, Static Field, Magnetic Surge, Magnetic Shield, Signet of Earth, Tornado

Warrior (15): Hammer Shock, Staggering Blow, Backbreaker, Earthshaker, Pommel Bash, Shield Bash, Skull Crack, Bull Charge, Stomp, Kick, Smash, Uppercut, Kick, Throw Boulder, Seismic Leap

Ranger (14): Entangling Web, Para Venom, Crippling Leap, Brutal Charge, Terrifying Howl, Crippling Throw, Hilt Bash, Kick, Monarch Leap, Path of Scars, Muddy Terrain, Frost Trap, Quicksand, Entangle

Guardian (11): Chains of Light, Shield of Absorption, Zealots Embrace, Banish, Ring of Warding, Hammer of Wisdom, Command Hammer, Signet of Wrath, Bane Signet, Affliction, Judgement

Thief (8, up to 13 depending on usage/initiative kittens the simpler calculus here): Crippling Strike, Infiltrators Strike, Pistol Whip, Headshot, Scorpion Wire, Caltrops, Devourer Venom, Basilisk Venom

Engie (11): Net Shot, Overcharged Shot, Box of Nails, Magnet, Big Ol Bomb, Glue Bomb, Net Attack, Net Turret, Electrified Net, Supply Drop, Supply Net

Mesmer (11): Diversion, Izerker, Illusionary Wave, Illusionary Leap, Swap, Temporal Curtain, Into the Void, Power Lock, Signet of Domination, Signet refresh Diversion, Moa

So point stands, all professions can and do have quite the equal playing ground in terms of control effects from start up (not to mention the fact of how low the cooldowns on hard cc from some professions are).

AS A TLDR: TakeCare and MethaneGas, please functionally play the game in situations where it matters and stop posting kitten you eat on the internet, you can smear it over the truth as much you like, you shall fail, same as religion, racism, nationalism and sexism have and are right now being used as a nice undead torture plaything for the amusement of the internet.

Obtena.7952:

Andele.1306:

BTW, despite it being off topic:

I understand what you were refuting … that is my response to it. There is nothing ‘false’ about making a claim that lacking what you call evade moves is OK. It’s no deficiency to lack those things on a Necro anymore than it is for a Guardian to lack mobility or runspeed …

Guards can very easily have perma swiftness with a shout build and using a supplementary lootstick ….

Way to miss the point … Mobility and speed is not part of the Guardian class concept just like evade moves aren’t part of the Necro one, even if you can concoct a build that gives perma swiftness. Even if the comparison doesn’t make sense to you, that doesn’t make me any less incorrect about how strong DS is.

As said, it was off point, but as mentioned, in combat mobility and movement speed can be built for on a guardian (tho the mobility part can be debated, the amount of blocks and heals more than makes up for it), because he has sufficient tools to do so, Necros have no tools of active defense (evades/blocks) and inefficient tools of mobility and stability.