Guild Wars 2

Reanimator and PotH have no business being minor traits since they deal with that is one subset of utility skills, which happen to be represented in Healing and Elite as well.
I’ve already posted threads about how Minion traits are too abundant to the point that they harm build diversity and build efficiency.

So I don’t have to repost here’s a link to my argument:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/necromancer/Our-traits-for-utility-skills/first#post1842271

PS- Hisazul, sounds to me like you’re the one who wants to keep our traits forced into the niche build You use, which is btw a pretty bad build.

HiSaZuL.2843:

For me personally jagged heals me for 120 damage every 2 seconds… Not defensive enough? It provides weakness. Still not enough? In masks my vulnerability with bleed and poison and weakness. Not enough? It feeds me life force.

And in the context of being in soldiers gear tanky spec if I have both barbed precision and jagged horror I will get a truck load more bleeding out of jagged horor then barbed. Still utterly pointless argument as far as im concerned and biased.

Imagine that… there are people who play with minion specs. And jaggeds provide more then any other minor trait out there combined. Keep advocating that those people should be nerfed because you want staff traits. Keep the nerf trait going.

2 little problems, it requires other traits to be that strong and its worthless during the fight, you get it after the enemy is dead.

HiSaZuL.2843:

For me personally jagged heals me for 120 damage every 2 seconds…

No, that’s your minion traits. The Jagged Horror provides no intrinsic defensive bonus, certainly nothing without traits.

HiSaZuL.2843:

Imagine that… there are people who play with minion specs. And jaggeds provide more then any other minor trait out there combined. Keep advocating that those people should be nerfed because you want staff traits. Keep the nerf trait going.

Changes aren’t necessarily nerfs. No one’s saying to remove the Jagged Horror from the game, just adjust the way minion traits work so Minion Masters can get it without forcing it on everyone else. Maybe make it a Major trait (but better than it currently is) and then collapse a few of the other minion traits together to make room. I dunno, that’s just one option.

Nobody’s saying to nerf minion builds. It’s just that it’s bad game design to dedicated a trait line to one specific build.

Listen, I run MM all the time, its the only thing I do in PvP. There should not be a trait in the game that is essentially useless until you spend more trait points on it. Barbed Precision is a great trait because it is useful on its own (extra damage, and nice extra damage) but also because it scales perfectly with its own tree; the more you go into the tree the stronger the trait is.

Reanimator on the other hand is incredibly weak unless you spend at least 25 more trait points.

Reanimator, as much as I do actually like the trait, really should be merged with Minion Master as an Adept Major (keep the name, though, since “Reanimator” also works for re-summoning dead minions). Protection of the Horde, if it stays, should likewise be merged with Flesh of the Master. This second one should be the higher priority as the trait is genuinely useless unless you devote most of your skill bar to it.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Reanimator, as much as I do actually like the trait, really should be merged with Minion Master as an Adept Major (keep the name, though, since “Reanimator” also works for re-summoning dead minions). Protection of the Horde, if it stays, should likewise be merged with Flesh of the Master. This second one should be the higher priority as the trait is genuinely useless unless you devote most of your skill bar to it.

For once someone with a common sense. I feel like these forums are about to implode.

Again useless unless X. Everything in this game is useless w/o other things supporting it. Same as barbed precision. Useless unless I have enough crit to actual proc it in less then 5 minute window. Heal on kill is useless until I actually you know… kill something it. Glottony is useless until I do something that actually generates life force.
Death shroud is useless w/o life force. And Dps is useless if you are dead. Etc.

Bhawb.7408:

Listen, I run MM all the time, its the only thing I do in PvP. There should not be a trait in the game that is essentially useless until you spend more trait points on it. Barbed Precision is a great trait because it is useful on its own (extra damage, and nice extra damage) but also because it scales perfectly with its own tree; the more you go into the tree the stronger the trait is.

Reanimator on the other hand is incredibly weak unless you spend at least 25 more trait points.

Scales perfectly is debatable. It doesn’t scale to anything if you can’t crit withing a resonable time frame.
Again if I take 10 points in curses so my tank can use ground targeted wells. How does that trait do anything. Except 88 damage once every 3 minutes MAYBE.
I’m sorry but 88 damage is like …. can it even kill a critter with that? Jagged doesn’t need a stat to proc a bleed that lasts twice as much.

One thing is to make a good argument like the guy above and another is to just whine that waaaah… i want staff… why doesn’t it benefit me. Nerf it. That’s just… meh that sounds like a pvp whine fest where the only thing matters is how loud you whine that x class is whopping you in pvp.

Honestly, if you have Focused Rituals, you are garunteed to have enough crit chance to proc Barbed Precision roughly 1 out of every 20 hits. If you aren’t hitting more than 20 times in 3 minutes, then the problem is with you, not the trait.

The reason why Protection of the Horde is so terrible is because it is a Minor trait (no selection involved if you want to use any Master tier+ Death magic) that has no effect at all unless you devote your build to it (and even then, it is a very minor effect) THAT is not okay. Every other minor trait in the game works without selecting skills to make it do so.

HiSaZuL.2843:

For once someone with a common sense. I feel like these forums are about to implode.

Again useless unless X. Everything in this game is useless w/o other things supporting it. Same as barbed precision. Useless unless I have enough crit to actual proc it in less then 5 minute window. Heal on kill is useless until I actually you know… kill something it. Glottony is useless until I do something that actually generates life force.
Death shroud is useless w/o life force. And Dps is useless if you are dead. Etc.

Wait wait, how did that make sense now if it was mentioned earlier before, merging the miniors into a major or with other majors… noone wants reanimator gone as removed from game like shade or i will revenge you or wrathful reward, just being a option for the line not a forced.
Also Gluttonly works off the profession mechanic (e.g. spectral grasp giving 17% lf instead of 15%) that are integral parts of the professions gameplay (thus the name), Reanimator isnt, as for barbed precision it works if you invest the base points into the line (reason why curses is a good line, it was made to work even if you are hybrid or condi, even if Furious demise doesnt make much sense for being a minior but better than both major traits with same type of effect).

I take it back… common sense just suddenly took a dive. Why are you bringing protection of the horde into this? Hm? Last I checked it was broken to begin with so I fail to see what the heck your trying to prove with that.

… a 4% base crit chance bumped to 9% chance to that would imply something like 9 out of 100 hits statistically. So yeah sure its close to 1 out of 10 hits. But it remains at 100 damage total in two ticks that it will do. That is a joke damage. That will not accomplish anything. Pve or pvp.

You went from having a good idea to usual forum rainbow vomit.

Umm, I had mentioned Protection of the Horde before? I was just bringing up why it was a bad minor trait and Barbed Precision wasn’t? Barbed Precision may not be doing much in a full Soldier’s gear, but it is doing something. Between wells, Locust Swarm, and dagger attacks, you should be proccing it every other second or so with the minimum crit chance. It isn’t much, but it is doing something.

Unless I am very much mistaken, that is kind of the point of this thread: discussing minor traits that really need a second look by the devs. I LIKE Reanimator. It may not be fantastic on its own, but it at least works. However, even I see that it would be better suited merged with a major trait. Likewise, Protection of the Horde needs to get merged, but that is because the minor trait does absolutely nothing (not a small effect, nothing) unless you build for it, and even then, the effect is small.

Part where it should be merged and redone is good discussion. Part where people whine about it being useless because they don’t run minions is what makes me want to slap myself for even trying.
And the whole topics point was about jagged horrors being well worth it when they are used in their own field. Not some imaginary “this trait kills me”, it does nothing, its horrible qq, QQ, NERF IT, BAAAAAAAA etc.
Protection of the horde had nothing to do with topic. And fact remains its broken to begin with or it should clearly state it has a cap which makes it hardly noticeble minions or not.

To be fair, Reanimator was horrible. It hasn’t been for some months, but on launch, the trait was definitely terrible. Unfortunately, people remember that a little too fondly.

Reanimator is a trait where you don’t know exactly what it will do, but outside of a few niche cases (epidemic necro, C&D thief, Subject Alpha), it is always helpful.

HiSaZuL.2843:

For once someone with a common sense. I feel like these forums are about to implode.

Pretty much this exact thing has been suggested multiple times in previous posts earlier in this thread.

HiSaZuL.2843:

Again useless unless X. Everything in this game is useless w/o other things supporting it. Same as barbed precision. Useless unless I have enough crit to actual proc it in less then 5 minute window. Heal on kill is useless until I actually you know… kill something it. Glottony is useless until I do something that actually generates life force.
Death shroud is useless w/o life force. And Dps is useless if you are dead. Etc.

In an absolute sense, yes. The idea is to have everything positioned so that it has built-in synergy.* Barbed Precision scales off crit chance and condition damage, so it’s in the trait line that gives you both. Gluttony grants you more life force when using LF-generating skills, but it’s also in the trait line that’s explicitly about Life Force and Deathshroud and comes with crit damage (which means you’re probably in a power build, and the primary power mainhand weapons, Dagger and Axe, generate LF like crazy).

Reanimator has nothing to do with either Toughness or Boon Duration, doesn’t give you anything defensive on its own, and has no real synergy with anything except this one specific build with its own playstyle. That’s why we want it folded in to something else that minion masters would want and replaced with something anyone might want.

*Too much synergy is dangerous, though. It can make balancing something difficult and also generally removes build diversity. You want a mix of symmetry and asymmetry to limit abuse cases and just keep things more interesting. Reanimator is just way too asymmetric.

HiSaZuL.2843:

Scales perfectly is debatable. It doesn’t scale to anything if you can’t crit withing a resonable time frame.

Well builds will crit all the time with even just that piddling 9% crit chance. All of them strike in a big AoE over and over. The law of averages is very much in your favor when running Wells.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Reanimator is a trait where you don’t know exactly what it will do, but outside of a few niche cases (epidemic necro, C&D thief, Subject Alpha), it is always helpful.

Again you need deaths to achive that, not a favourable effect for traits (im still against the virtue recharge traits and the % of stat x to stat y transition traits being minior, just as the utility specific ones) just any kind of enforcment of a build. Good examples of it done right and wrong with a simmilar effect were DKs in WoW, Blood – tanking, but a surprising amount of damage traits, turning into immortal pvp tanks, unholy, high free control and burst, but lack of resource management to sustain the line giving it a arena one hit wonder effect and worthless in pve and frost, quasi tank/dps mix focusing on resource management and keeping a optimal rotation with almost guaranteed effects based on procs said rotation gave (as in 2 diseases, Frost strike, Obli, proc HW, PS, HW, Tap, Frost, Frost,proc HW, Obli, *proc HW Reapply diseases and repeat) – ofc things changed since then (well 2 expansions worth of it), but the idea remains the same, having a efficient foundation for builds be it two one-handed weapons and dps or a two-hander and tanking, the effects of the tree had reliable strenght, while the other two were situational strenght but generally seen as either fotm or unviable for quite the time.

If the curses 25 trait worked for conditions, it would be one of the best trait lines in the game as far as synergy. Its adept minor works for every build, if you aren’t condi it still adds some DPS over a fight, and even better it has a small chance of covering a meaningful condition (since every single Necro build uses conditions). Then it scales up as you go further into the tree, as it scales with precision and condition damage, which is what you get.

Then you hit Master minor, and that raises your crit chance by 20% for 5 seconds every time you go in DS, which not only synergizes in general as it works for every kind of build, but it makes your other Curse traits better.

If only the 25 trait raised condition damage, it would be perfect, but as it is it still gives you increased damage per condition on the target; and guess what your adept minor adds conditions all the time. It is a really well designed tree. The traits all have some synergy, the minors are all useful to all builds, even if some more than others.

Death Magic is the exact opposite.

Bhawb.7408:

If the curses 25 trait worked for conditions, it would be one of the best trait lines in the game as far as synergy.

Then you hit Master minor, and that raises your crit chance by 20% for 5 seconds every time you go in DS, which not only synergizes in general as it works for every kind of build, but it makes your other Curse traits better.

2 things about it, the grandmaster traits are always power dps increases, stat transitions or some sort of might application, in the case of the curse tree, its covering the lack of direct/burst hits and making hybrid builds stronger. And sadly the Furious Demise is kinda counter intuitive with either the condition playstyle or our profession mechanic (so either do direct damage for a time that is quite boosted – 110% of what it would do normally in a condi build or abbandon your profession and defensive mechanic for a possible increase in condition damage/bit stronger synergy) AND the probably most important thing unlike most master miniors it doesnt really change the condi playstyle, same problem i have with Spite and SR, in fact a lot of 2nd trait lines and 4 or 5th trait lines. Vampiric, Lingering Elements, Fast Hands, Building Momentum, Fortifying Bond, Selfless Daring, Meld with Shadows, Feline Grace, Sharper Images, etc nor is it a On HP% effect like almost every other is.