Guild Wars 2

Hey PvE Necros! I was never really sure if DS or dagger is the way to go in PvE, so I just made some dps tests with the common meta builds for dagger and deathshroud against puppets over 60 sec. It’s nothing special, just sharing it that you guys don’t have to do it too

DpS:

1. Lich Form AA: 2072
2. Dagger: 1501
3. Death Shroud <600: 1066
4. Death Shroud >600: 762

So if you like to play a Necro in PvE dungeons or fotm, wich really isn’t that bad as ppl call it, you still bring ok damage and some utility. There are better choices we know that, but a well played necro can still be useful and won’t turn your lv50 fotm into a nightmare.

But you should only use the dagger as a weapon and shouldn’t focus on DS builds. If you need ranged, axe or Lich Form is the way to go. Lich form is also 38% stronger than dagger, so it’s a dps increase during boss fights or for spike.

greez!

It is worth noting that in a group and using different rotations of WH/Focus you are going to get different DPS numbers. Dagger is still the best, but IIRC Lich doesn’t actually boost your DPS that much with all the boosts you’ll have in a group.

Xyonon.3987:

Hey PvE Necros! I was never really sure if DS or dagger is the way to go in PvE, so I just made some dps tests with the common meta builds for dagger and deathshroud against puppets over 60 sec. It’s nothing special, just sharing it that you guys don’t have to do it too

DpS:

1. Lich Form AA: 2072
2. Dagger: 1501
3. Death Shroud <600: 1066
4. Death Shroud >600: 762

So if you like to play a Necro in PvE dungeons or fotm, wich really isn’t that bad as ppl call it, you still bring ok damage and some utility. There are better choices we know that, but a well played necro can still be useful and won’t turn your lv50 fotm into a nightmare.

But you should only use the dagger as a weapon and shouldn’t focus on DS builds. If you need ranged, axe or Lich Form is the way to go. Lich form is also 38% stronger than dagger, so it’s a dps increase during boss fights or for spike.

greez!

So what is the DPS again of Lich form auto attack since you know, it got nerfed down to 20 seconds from 30 not long ago, and still with a 180 second cooldown?, also unless you are in a kitten good group to carry you at 50 going necro is not a good option at all, it’s a decent to mediocre option at best “what other professions bring compared to necro”, damage done better, DPS done better, Support done better, reflect done better, boon uptime, condition clears, survivability, vulnerability and so on.

So sure necro can do fractal 50 if you do it in a guild group to have fun, but if you try to join a 50 fractal group, you will get kicked for being a necromancer.

Appreciate the optimism you have but we’re lacking way to much in PvE because of some stupid “e-sports” things Arenanet wants to do, so sorry for not sahring your optimism.

Sincerely a necro since the 3 day headstart.

Azzer.8137:

So what is the DPS again of Lich form auto attack since you know, it got nerfed down to 20 seconds from 30 not long ago, and still with a 180 second cooldown?, also unless you are in a kitten good group to carry you at 50 going necro is not a good option at all, it’s a decent to mediocre option at best “what other professions bring compared to necro”, damage done better, DPS done better, Support done better, reflect done better, boon uptime, condition clears, survivability, vulnerability and so on.

So sure necro can do fractal 50 if you do it in a guild group to have fun, but if you try to join a 50 fractal group, you will get kicked for being a necromancer.

Appreciate the optimism you have but we’re lacking way to much in PvE because of some stupid “e-sports” things Arenanet wants to do, so sorry for not sahring your optimism.

Sincerely a necro since the 3 day headstart.

You kinda just repeated what I said. But you overestimate the pve skill cap. You don’t need a group to “carry you at 50” … Fotm requires a war, an ele and a mes/guard. Everything else doesnt really matter. And as I said, Necro isn’t the best for any job. But it’s still engouh for anything in pve.

like many things.

Necromancer is certainly viable
just not optimal.

maybe someday.

Bhawb.7408:

It is worth noting that in a group and using different rotations of WH/Focus you are going to get different DPS numbers. Dagger is still the best, but IIRC Lich doesn’t actually boost your DPS that much with all the boosts you’ll have in a group.

Actually, since the change to Lich Form, I think it’s fully supported damage got a large boost, since they removed the base power boost, but significantly increased the power coefficient. Would have to do some tests, though, and it’s annoying we don’t know what the weapon damage for Lich Form is to do proper evaluation. We also can’t test “old” lich form anymore.

I havent tested it either. But im under the assumption that since Lich now just has higher damage coefficients on the skills it no longer has scaling issues and works better under group buffs.

Anyway the more accurate test would be to compare lich to dagger wh/focus rotation. Pure dagger auto is not supposed to be amazing.

Also something interesting i just noticed. When entering lich form it seems to only use your stats from the set you have equipped. So if you are using the dagger, focus/warhorn setup. And you enter Lich form while on your focus set (no mainhand because dagger and warhorn are on set 1). You will lose 94 power (ascended berserker). Whereas outside of Lich form it properly uses the power from the mainhand regardless of what weapon set you have in use.

Also lich form uses a fixed value for weapon strength. Using a staff does not increase your lich form damage over using d+f or d+w. Because of this we have no way of working out what the damage coefficient or weapon strength is. But we can use the combat log to work out an estimate of a new constant (weapon strength * coefficient) assuming we know the targets exact armour value.

Coefficient could be helped with varying power stats, and fixed armor can be done with the test golems in HotM.

Sounds like an interesting research project. I can’t take the time for it right now, but I’d be willing to test it.

Well we wont know the exact coefficient unless we know the weapon strength. Might be able to work out an estimate weapon strength by comparing the coefficients from the other Lich form skills. Or we can just assume its 1000, although that wouldnt be accurate.

Also something else i noticed which is interesting. Normally while in Lich form it does not update your critical chance even though we know it is increased in Lich form. However if you are using food, have fury or any buff which boosts crit chance beyond what your gear gives you. Then it correctly displays your critical chance on the hero panel.

So basically in my full assassins set with no food/buffs i have 61% crit chance. It displays as 61% while in Lich. If i gain fury it goes up to 125% and then back to 61% when i lose fury. If i use some food then its at 65% and when entering Lich it goes up to 109% and displays correctly. And if ive got both fury and food it goes up to 129% and then back to 109% when i run out of fury.

Basically you need some kind of buff which makes the number turn green on the hero panel for it to display correctly in Lich form (updated the wiki to show this). Would love it if anet properly fixed the hero panel to be honest. :>

Last night Lich hit for 5k – 6k in a mix of mostly zerker/celestial gear with about 2 -3 stacks of ambiant might and a 6/4/4/0/0 temple zerg build.

Shaman’s/exuberance gear yields 2-3k per hit on lich for lack of precision but is very tanky so I have no trouble wading through the AoE to res’ over and over. 4/0/4/6/0

A little toughness goes a long way but gathers aggro.

Not a great player or have max-tuned equipment but I do get bags – more bags than I do with Ranger, although I am still tuning its JP button.

My bigger issue is with the heals. They suck. Attrition fights really show how deficient my necro is versus a mesmer with signet of the ether and 3 illusions or restorative mantra+mantra of renewal.

They either need to reduce the cd and cast time, or increase the healing amount to heal like the guardian’s signet.

I do feel the minion heal can heal you for quite a lot sustained if minions weren’t such fragile garbage.

And then there’s signet of vampirism, which much like signet of the there is a joke compared to warrior’s healing signet (which heal isn’t though, beisdes engineer healing turret).

Also I find little use for axe with DS vastly outdamaging it as a ranged option. All you need is a couple of dagger autoattacks and you’re back to spamming 6-7k life blasts, which also pierce unlike the axe.

Try using Life Siphon. I know, blasphemy, because it hurts your deeps, but it’s a pretty sizable heal on a relatively short cooldown.

Necro health sustain does need to be looked at, but a lot of the time people aren’t using what tools are already in their build to try and help their situation. This is inexcusable, to me.

Go ahead and watch videos of Power necros that use main-hand dagger. Out of dozens of videos, I can count the number of times I have seen them use Life Siphon on one hand. If you’re wanting some more health, go ahead and use it.

Both of Necro’s channel skills are good for different reasons but I like to maximize their use. Axe builds LF quick and dagger heals a bit and has a lot more range than the AA, as much as axe. Whenever a gap opens, Life Siphon is the first button I go for, followed by DS.

Ropechef.6192:

like many things.

Necromancer is certainly viable
just not optimal.

maybe someday.

People who’ve been wanting to main Necro just because they think the class is cool have been waiting for that “maybe someday” for two and a half years though

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Try using Life Siphon. I know, blasphemy, because it hurts your deeps, but it’s a pretty sizable heal on a relatively short cooldown.

Necro health sustain does need to be looked at, but a lot of the time people aren’t using what tools are already in their build to try and help their situation. This is inexcusable, to me.

Go ahead and watch videos of Power necros that use main-hand dagger. Out of dozens of videos, I can count the number of times I have seen them use Life Siphon on one hand. If you’re wanting some more health, go ahead and use it.

I use it, it heals at best 2-3k health.

Necro sustain is just pitiful next to my mesmer and ele, and I don’t even want to touch on warriors or guardians because those are just on a league of their own.

The heal is not spectacular but it is on a short-ish cool down and, if channels are traited with Dark Armor in DM, you get extra toughness to make up for being a target while channeling. It is not quite as bad as the dps loss vs AA makes it seem. If I cannot dodge or DS, Dark Armor channeling helps

Anchoku.8142:

The heal is not spectacular but it is on a short-ish cool down and, if channels are traited with Dark Armor in DM, you get extra toughness to make up for being a target while channeling. It is not quite as bad as the dps loss vs AA makes it seem. If I cannot dodge or DS, Dark Armor channeling helps

Why would I have dark armor though, that’s not in a standard PvE build. You put 6 in your power line, 6 in soul reaping, and the other 2 should go in your crit line.

And it is most definitely a large damage loss vs AA DPS. Don’t get me wrong, I use it because it’s better to be alive than downed, but it is undeniable that its longish channel time relative to its total damage is pitifully low. It does less damage than ghastly claws, and ghastly claws is even wimpy relative to rapid fire anyways.

And in any case you want to range because you’re low on health while waiting for your heal, that’s what life blast is for.

Zenith.7301:

Anchoku.8142:

The heal is not spectacular but it is on a short-ish cool down and, if channels are traited with Dark Armor in DM, you get extra toughness to make up for being a target while channeling. It is not quite as bad as the dps loss vs AA makes it seem. If I cannot dodge or DS, Dark Armor channeling helps

Why would I have dark armor though, that’s not in a standard PvE build. You put 6 in your power line, 6 in soul reaping, and the other 2 should go in your crit line.

Why are you caring about sustain in PvE?

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Zenith.7301:

Anchoku.8142:

The heal is not spectacular but it is on a short-ish cool down and, if channels are traited with Dark Armor in DM, you get extra toughness to make up for being a target while channeling. It is not quite as bad as the dps loss vs AA makes it seem. If I cannot dodge or DS, Dark Armor channeling helps

Why would I have dark armor though, that’s not in a standard PvE build. You put 6 in your power line, 6 in soul reaping, and the other 2 should go in your crit line.

Why are you caring about sustain in PvE?

Because there are instances like fire shaman or if you eat an archdiviner melee where you want to get to full hp back as soon as possible to go back into melee? Or mai trin when you somehow get hiot by holrik’s fireball despite being outside the kitten telegraph?

Or maybe the several living story achievement runs where the mordrem specifically pepper you with poison all the time or events like triple trouble?

Not to mention in HoT where stacking inside reflects might no longer be a 24/7 strategy, you might actually need sustain in some fights.

If you get hit in those situations the meagre sustain lifesteal gives is not going to help much. You are better off focusing on damage and just learning to dodge properly.

Mai Trin is the only place where lifesteal could be worthwhile. But you are going to die if you try to outsustain her auto attack. And you should be dodging the pistol spin and DS absorbing or dodge jump/dark path/spectral walk avoiding the killshot.

Standing directly between horrik and his giant red circle is something you shouldnt do. Its a projectile so it will hit you on the way.

Also why have people suddenly changed the topic to something completely unrelated. This thread was about Lich comparison to other forms of dps.