Guild Wars 2

So, I want to play reaper spec and use normal necro deathshroud. People will say reaper is better in every way, it is not. There are multiple specs I have tried that work significantly better with base shroud than reaper shroud but need the line desperately. Please make it possible to select a shroud out of combat so that you can use normal shroud even with an elite spec (do not make reaper selectable without reaper line though). This will also definitely help for some other elite spec, which will have a totally worthless shroud in the future most likely.

+1
This is here for 15 Chars

+1
/ 15 necros

F1: Dark shroud
F2: Reaper shroud
Each one shares the same cooldown (cf: elem)

Yes, this is the better way. I wanna play Death shroud with shouts!

kitten no!

/15chars

Imagine if Chronomancer allowed for Continuum Split (F5) but sacrificed one (or a few) of the shatter skills in it’s place? Then mesmers would all cry out that (rightfully) mechanics have to be sacrificed to play the new elite spec. So why does reaper forcefully replace an existing mechanic? Isn’t the point of the elite specs to unlock more mechanics?

Matt Stacey.7415:

Imagine if Chronomancer allowed for Continuum Split (F5) but sacrificed one (or a few) of the shatter skills in it’s place? Then mesmers would all cry out that (rightfully) mechanics have to be sacrificed to play the new elite spec. So why does reaper forcefully replace an existing mechanic? Isn’t the point of the elite specs to unlock more mechanics?

I’d argue Reaper and Dragon Hunter is in the right. They’re intended to be unique sub-classes. Classes which only gain and lose nothing broke the whole idea of Elite specializations if you ask me. Something should have been given up for each.

As such I don’t really think Reaper should get to chose, nor do I think Virtues should be chosen between.

And frankly, I do think Chronomancer should have altered shatters.

Some, like Druid are a little bit tricky, but I don’t think enough was given up. It’s part of why Elite specs are considered power creeps, many just gained in power, and in the cases where it didn’t happen, you find that RS just overshadows the base shroud instead. The sub classes should have been far more unique overall, otherwise the base class just loses identity and purpose.

ronpierce.2760:

I’d argue Reaper and Dragon Hunter is in the right. They’re intended to be unique sub-classes. Classes which only gain and lose nothing broke the whole idea of Elite specializations if you ask me. Something should have been given up for each.

As such I don’t really think Reaper should get to chose, nor do I think Virtues should be chosen between.

And frankly, I do think Chronomancer should have altered shatters.

Completely agree here. Same with warriors; primal bursts should have replaced their burst skills, not been slapped on top of them.

Not really sure where thieves stand in this since daredevil didnt really do anything with their class mechanic, but in my book it is in the right aswell

I’d argue Reaper and Dragon Hunter is in the right. They’re intended to be unique sub-classes. Classes which only gain and lose nothing broke the whole idea of Elite specializations if you ask me. Something should have been given up for each.

As such I don’t really think Reaper should get to chose, nor do I think Virtues should be chosen between.

And frankly, I do think Chronomancer should have altered shatters.

Some, like Druid are a little bit tricky, but I don’t think enough was given up. It’s part of why Elite specs are considered power creeps, many just gained in power, and in the cases where it didn’t happen, you find that RS just overshadows the base shroud instead. The sub classes should have been far more unique overall, otherwise the base class just loses identity and purpose.

You go tothe elementary school. You gain some knowledge adapted to this grade. Right? Now, you go in university. Do you lose what you learn in elementary school? No, it’s same here. Why necro loses death shroud whereas others professions lose nothing? (except Guardian)

Ashenvall.1564:

You go tothe elementary school. You gain some knowledge adapted to this grade. Right? Now, you go in university. Do you lose what you learn in elementary school? No, it’s same here. Why necro loses death shroud whereas others professions lose nothing? (except Guardian)

By the same logic: Why do you have to replace a traitline when you want to select a new one? Why do you lose a utility skill and can no longer cast it if you put a new one on your skill bar?

Because having access to everything at once would make it boring. Choices and exclusive things make the game interesting.

Ashenvall.1564:

I’d argue Reaper and Dragon Hunter is in the right. They’re intended to be unique sub-classes. Classes which only gain and lose nothing broke the whole idea of Elite specializations if you ask me. Something should have been given up for each.

As such I don’t really think Reaper should get to chose, nor do I think Virtues should be chosen between.

And frankly, I do think Chronomancer should have altered shatters.

Some, like Druid are a little bit tricky, but I don’t think enough was given up. It’s part of why Elite specs are considered power creeps, many just gained in power, and in the cases where it didn’t happen, you find that RS just overshadows the base shroud instead. The sub classes should have been far more unique overall, otherwise the base class just loses identity and purpose.

You go tothe elementary school. You gain some knowledge adapted to this grade. Right? Now, you go in university. Do you lose what you learn in elementary school? No, it’s same here. Why necro loses death shroud whereas others professions lose nothing? (except Guardian)

They are specialized. A specialized person does not have the same breadth of knowledge, they have a more defined set of knowledge.

Now, regardless of semantics and how you want to spin things. The devs said the intention of Elites were to basically be “unique sub classes” that played differently than the core. That’s what their own goal was, and it made sense, to not introduce and obvious power creep you’d suspect something given up for the unique gains.

So far, only two classes even delivered on that, so sure, it might feel a bit off-putting as a Reaper or DH, but at its core, they’re the only ones that stayed true to the design philosophy and better overall design execution.

By the same logic: Why do you have to replace a traitline when you want to select a new one? Why do you lose a utility skill and can no longer cast it if you put a new one on your skill bar?

For balance. But, it’s justice to lose something and others professions not?
=> Why do my friends get some candies? And not me?

Now, regardless of semantics and how you want to spin things. The devs said the intention of Elites were to basically be “unique sub classes” that played differently than the core. That’s what their own goal was, and it made sense, to not introduce and obvious power creep you’d suspect something given up for the unique gains.

Like you said "the devs said the “intention” of elites were to basically be unique […]"
However, they don’t respect their commitment. Now, we are alone with the previous way of thinking. But, I agree with the devs : Why does I lost what I have?

Ashenvall.1564:

Why does I lost what I have?

For balance.

But, it’s justice to lose something and others professions not?
=> Why do my friends get some candies? And not me?

Like you said “the devs said the “intention” of elites were to basically be unique […]”
However, they don’t respect their commitment. Now, we are alone with the previous way of thinking.

I agree that it isnt entirely fair. But just because other classes’ elite specs are kittentily designed in that regard, this doesnt mean reaper has to be dragged down to the same level of awful design.

Also, most of those other classes only got very few new skills added to their class mechanic, not an entire transformation of new skills.

This concept was my major gripe with HoT back during the BWEs and the initial launch. They failed to deliver on their own design philosophy for how the elite specializations were supposed to work. Not only that though, but even throughout the BWEs where classes were shown early-access playtime with the community, it seemed no one questioned it or bat an eye at it even though we were still in the literal middle of the development phase where this concept was supposed to be the most prevalent, which means not only did they fail to deliver on their philosophy immediately, but the community in general didn’t even care. Now we have an outcry of “power creep” in the community and most people couldn’t even tell you why.

They need to give stability to death shroud if you’re reaper then

My solution to this issue would be to give us a choice of which skills from each shroud you bring when you go Reaper. Make the whole bar like a utility that way you can still some choice on your build. I’d love to keep most of the Reaper Shroud skills and just add DS4 instead of RS4. Make it so you can only have a choice of the corresponding skill.

The problem that I’m having with all these improvements and “options” is that for every new set of traits and we (and I mean all classes) get the more we’re pigeon holed into a few core builds. We used to have points and 5 trait lines. Now we gained another Grand Master trait but only have 3 lines. Build diversity lowered. We (now I’m talking about necros) get a new shroud but only in with the Reaper trait line thus limiting our choice of trait lines to 2. So AGAIN we lose build diversity. Some traits and skills are so broken no one uses them and other’s are pretty much forced synergy. I mean if I play Wellomancer without Vampiric Rituals to speed up my cooldown time siphon health and add protection then I’m probably stupid. But then that brings down my real choice of GM traits to 2.

2 things I’d like to see in shrouds in the future is 1) the above mentioned shoud skill swap and 2) shroud skills 7-9. I had a thread where I suggested that they should have traits to unlock new shroud skills. So in order to get a new skill you have to pick a certain trait. For example take a crappy GM trait like Unholy Martyr and you unlock a skill shroud skill 7 that lets you damage a target and apply a stack of bleeding for every condition on you.

Matt Stacey.7415:

Imagine if Chronomancer allowed for Continuum Split (F5) but sacrificed one (or a few) of the shatter skills in it’s place? Then mesmers would all cry out that (rightfully) mechanics have to be sacrificed to play the new elite spec. So why does reaper forcefully replace an existing mechanic? Isn’t the point of the elite specs to unlock more mechanics?

Oh no, trade-offs! Anything but that~! ;-;

Akrasia.5469:

My solution to this issue would be to give us a choice of which skills from each shroud you bring when you go Reaper. Make the whole bar like a utility that way you can still some choice on your build. I’d love to keep most of the Reaper Shroud skills and just add DS4 instead of RS4. Make it so you can only have a choice of the corresponding skill.

The problem that I’m having with all these improvements and “options” is that for every new set of traits and we (and I mean all classes) get the more we’re pigeon holed into a few core builds. We used to have points and 5 trait lines. Now we gained another Grand Master trait but only have 3 lines. Build diversity lowered. We (now I’m talking about necros) get a new shroud but only in with the Reaper trait line thus limiting our choice of trait lines to 2. So AGAIN we lose build diversity. Some traits and skills are so broken no one uses them and other’s are pretty much forced synergy. I mean if I play Wellomancer without Vampiric Rituals to speed up my cooldown time siphon health and add protection then I’m probably stupid. But then that brings down my real choice of GM traits to 2.

2 things I’d like to see in shrouds in the future is 1) the above mentioned shoud skill swap and 2) shroud skills 7-9. I had a thread where I suggested that they should have traits to unlock new shroud skills. So in order to get a new skill you have to pick a certain trait. For example take a crappy GM trait like Unholy Martyr and you unlock a skill shroud skill 7 that lets you damage a target and apply a stack of bleeding for every condition on you.

Thank you! I’m not alone in this fight anymore.

Being able to cherry pick skills for your shroud would be awful in my opinion. As it is right now, both shrouds as a whole have to compete with each other; not exactly balanced at the moment but it could be worse. It allows the developers to make different shrouds which emphasise different things or skills that synergise with each other in unique ways.
If you suddenly allow people to pick skills together from death shroud and reaper shroud or whatever shroud, this wont be possible anymore.

Again, there should be trade off to choosing an elite spec. It should NOT be a straight upgrade. Being able to only pick the better skills between the two shrouds would be exactly that.

We (now I’m talking about necros) get a new shroud but only in with the Reaper trait line thus limiting our choice of trait lines to 2. So AGAIN we lose build diversity.

Whether you choose 3 out of 5 traitlines or always pick reaper and choose 2 out of 5 doesnt make a difference. Same number of trait line combinations. So that alone does not lower build diversity.

2) shroud skills 7-9. I had a thread where I suggested that they should have traits to unlock new shroud skills. So in order to get a new skill you have to pick a certain trait. For example take a crappy GM trait like Unholy Martyr and you unlock a skill shroud skill 7 that lets you damage a target and apply a stack of bleeding for every condition on you.

Thats a pretty interesting idea.

@RashanDale in many post you critize everything without suggest an helpful idea.
“Criticism is easy and art is difficult”

Ashenvall.1564:

“Criticism is easy

It is, because you guys are making it so easy for me.

And what am i supposed to make suggestions for? The way the current elite spec shroud replaces the default one and requires you to make a decision is good in my opinion. I want it to stay like that, and maybe be changed for the other classes’ elite specs.

i feel like allowing us to choose which shroud we want to use wouldnt be terribly game breaking, nor would it be bad game design

you take reaper but decide you prefer death shroud over reaper shroud. so you switch reaper shroud out for death shroud, much like how our utility slots work. no big deal

dont give us the ability to straight up switch between the 2 shrouds during combat, give us choice. i dont see anything wrong with that

Reknarok.7582:

i feel like allowing us to choose which shroud we want to use wouldnt be terribly game breaking, nor would it be bad game design

you take reaper but decide you prefer death shroud over reaper shroud. so you switch reaper shroud out for death shroud, much like how our utility slots work. no big deal

dont give us the ability to straight up switch between the 2 shrouds during combat, give us choice. i dont see anything wrong with that

Got an F1 & F2 (Death shroud & kitten r shroud) sharing the same cooldown (10 sec) like I said before. I agree with you: It’s not game breaking/ bad game design

RashanDale.3609:

Ashenvall.1564:

“Criticism is easy

It is, because you guys are making it so easy for me.

And what am i supposed to make suggestions for? The way the current elite spec shroud replaces the default one and requires you to make a decision is good in my opinion. I want it to stay like that, and maybe be changed for the other classes’ elite specs.

In a game like this with thousands of players designing their characters build diversity is a good thing or else this might as well be Call of Duty. It would be boring in an RPG if we all had the same skills. The problem with more build diversity is that it makes it harder for Devs to balance everything. So the more lazy approach is to limit what the players can do. The one of the nicest parts of a game like this is to tinker with your character and find a combo that works for you. It gets harder when our options get taken away. Some of the limitations are obvious like forcing you to get a whole new skill line. The other is to make you choose certain skills and traits because they never work well with things you like. Like Blood being bad for Reapers in general or if I play MM I have to take Death magic or minions suck. I’m not saying you’re wrong that there should be sacrifices but players should develop builds with tools given to us by devs not devs making our minds up for us.

I don’t see the problem with being able to choose RS once you unlock the entire trait line, without having to choose Reaper. It will open up more build diversity.

Yea lol said this from day 1, not sure why they split them. In any case, within the next 2 years the trait system will probably change again in some way. The current system is just not sustainable.