Guild Wars 2

Tim.6450:

it’s pvp while going Rabid.

Ya, that’s normal (its a decent build), but again you wouldn’t even be taking Vampiric Precision anyway so there really isn’t a big deal. Rabid MM will get way more use out of MoE over Vampiric Precision, so even though your crit chance is probably good enough to support the use of the trait, you shouldn’t even be taking it anyway.

digiowl.9620:

Or just drop the whole idea of siphons doing damage independent of skill damage, and just have it heal us as a percentage of damage (pretty much like the new guardian skill, but permanent).

Basically what I meant with the second option. I could see them handing out a base 2% of damage dealt siphon that scales with stats to keep it on par with 5% damage traits, and have it behave far more predictably than what they have now.

Sorry to bring up this topic again, but I’ve been thinking about our “attrition” role (or lack thereof).

The term attrition isn’t just about making someone weaker. It can also be applied to items.

What would you all think of having a trait that, instead of weakening the opponent directly, would weaken the items the person was carrying. This would be armor and weapons at the very least. Something along the lines of:

Material Erosion:
All items on the target lose 10% of their effectiveness for 10 seconds.

I haven’t worked out the details, so 10 seconds might not be long enough, and 10% might not be strong enough. But the idea is there.

Just food for thought.

I’ve been noticing attrition more and more recently, but not necessarily with regard to my Necro. It doesn’t feel like I can keep my LF regenning consistently enough to use it to whittle someone else down, though it HAS happened.

Instead, the biggest example of an attrition fight I can think of is, at the moment, against Thieves in WvW as my current DS Powermancer build. I don’t really credit the Thief class as requiring much in the way of timing, knowledge, or prowess, but the “better” Thieves recognize how quickly they’ll die to me, and play the slow game. Of course, Backstab damage isn’t “slow”, but it’s a longer fight than you’d think played out in bursts. They come in, hit me, make me use a cooldown, then disappear. The attrition part is that they have enough Daze/Blind to make it really difficult to get a rhythm with LF regen, and I notice my LF pool slowly dwindling further and further down. At that point it’s a race against time where I have to catch them somehow before they enter stealth and punish them.

So basically, the attrition playstyle I’ve seen has come from Backstab Thieves, which probably says something about how the game plays out and how the concept of attrition isn’t very straightforward in a game like GW2. I’m not exactly sure what that is, but I thought it was interesting enough to share.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Dalanor.5387:

Mobility only matters in WvW. In most PvE content mobility is pointless and in sPvP you have point capture (and you shouldnt go to far point anyway).

I agree.
PvE is boring as hell, takes no skill tod o most of the content
S/TPvP is just Yawn.

I find it funny that you say this. Because the same people that say PVE takes no skill are the ones dying to almost anything/everything, or are wearing PVT in dungeons, and still die.

Also: s/tpvp isnt “yawn” but it’s not your thing. Insulting other game modes while you do the easiest to get away with bad play (wvw), doesn’t really say much about you or your opinions does it?

No content is harder or easier than another. They all have hard and easy parts.

I honestly doubt we’ll ever see true attrition on a necromancer. It’s not hard to understand why either. In a prolonged fight necromancers eventually run out of resources. Life force can’t be replenished at a satisfactory rate, neither can our life pool, and our defensive conditions don’t scale very well with the amount of players. Minion-based builds have seen some improvement lately, but other than that we’re dealing with a class where all the defensive measures are based on finite resources. Classes with access to resources that renew themselves over time, if only through abilities coming off cooldown, are the ones that ultimately hold the advantage. Reliable access to healing is just a straight up better deal, even if it means having a smaller life pool. Same goes for reliable access to stealth, probably one of the best attrition mechanics in the game.

The necromancer’s flaws run deep, all the way to the very basics of the design. And there’s no easy fix.

Kahrgan.7401:

I find it funny that you say this. Because the same people that say PVE takes no skill are the ones dying to almost anything/everything, or are wearing PVT in dungeons, and still die.

Also: s/tpvp isnt “yawn” but it’s not your thing. Insulting other game modes while you do the easiest to get away with bad play (wvw), doesn’t really say much about you or your opinions does it?

I wouldn’t be one of them, i do WvW and only WvW i think i have done like a few bits here and there in PvE over the last few weeks. I myself (me) find it boring, find it to easy, the dungeons are to easy imo, Then again i wouldn’t want them like WoW Cata was at the start THAT was insane.

To ME S/TPvP IS yawn, much to limiting for me, the maps get old very fast and its just the same old same old.

Insulting other game modes? Sorry but you really think saying that S/TPvP is “yawn” is insulting? what are you 12? I very much doubt ANYONE would find what i said insulting – because it wasn’t.

We already see attrition on Necros; MM builds. Its really not that difficult to turn current non MM builds into attrition, if they added in traiting that would allow power and condi builds to mirror what makes MMs strong, but in their own non-minion way.

Bhawb.7408:

We already see attrition on Necros; MM builds. Its really not that difficult to turn current non MM builds into attrition, if they added in traiting that would allow power and condi builds to mirror what makes MMs strong, but in their own non-minion way.

But it would need to be in a way that has NO affect on MM builds. What makes MM builds so tough? The health? The siphons? The Conditions? The numbers between projectiles and the player?

MMs have attrition through:
Decent sustain via siphoning
Good sustained DPS (relatively low burst)
Strong hard and soft CC
Great poison/weakness access, on low CDs
High base defenses (HP/toughness)

You restrict it from MMs by making it trait-based. MMs are pretty stuck into a few trait lines if they want the sustain that comes with the build, so by adding it in to basically any slot except for Spite 10, you restrict it from doubling up with MM builds.

Bhawb.7408:

MMs have attrition through:
Decent sustain via siphoning
Good sustained DPS (relatively low burst)
Strong hard and soft CC
Great poison/weakness access, on low CDs
High base defenses (HP/toughness)

You restrict it from MMs by making it trait-based. MMs are pretty stuck into a few trait lines if they want the sustain that comes with the build, so by adding it in to basically any slot except for Spite 10, you restrict it from doubling up with MM builds.

We have access to most of that anyway.
Poison is auto attack on Scepter, personally i wish it would be on Dagger
CC we have without MM builds as well
High defense same without MM builds

The only thing i can really think of is the Siphoning:
Full of Life
Vampiric

Bloodthirst
Vampiric Precision
Vampiric Master

I wonder how well a build with the EXACT same traits as a MM build would be if it didnt have Vampiric Master. I think that is what tops it over when combined with all the other Siphon traits and Dagger #2

Vampiric Master is actually pretty low HP/s right now. Its 72 per minion hit, which in your general situation averages out to 96(ish) HP/s.

100% poison uptime is achieveable in a minion build solely through Death Nova’d bone minions. That’s it, just that one skill = 100% poison. Anything on top just helps cover cleanses, and there is plenty more.

Weakness uptime is about 75% with again the same skill. So just using Death Nova with bone minions can give you 75% weakness and 100% poison uptime.

In addition to that, Flesh Golem gives 100% cripple uptime through auto attacking. A full MM CC chain is 12-15s of hard CC, rotating between non-condition hard CC, immobilize, and fear, which is a really hard combination to deal with. After that full CC chain (which is up every 50s, smaller versions have half the CD but are harder to land), its easy to apply a lot of chill and cripple.

Those are done through the minion skills synergizing with the traiting. Scepter can be used in a minion build as well, it is a weapon not a build.

Condition builds do have decent attrition using the same basic mechanics, but cannot really trait as defensively as an MM can, so they can never reach the full level of an MMs strength (but deal a lot higher damage in return).

yeah but how much healing do you get if you take Vampiric, Bloodthirst, Vampiric Precision and Vampiric Master with 7 minions? Each minion healing for say 64 (according to GW2skill) thats just with 30 into Blood Magic, taking Blood Thirst and Vampiric Precision no gear or anything so that is EVERY time a Minion hits and dont forget the heals from Blood Fiend as well as the heals from Vampiric and Vampiric Precision

To me, that seems like it could be some decent self heals.

No one ever takes that ever ever, period, ever. If they do the minions should turn around and slap them.

Bhawb.7408:

No one ever takes that ever ever, period, ever. If they do the minions should turn around and slap them.

That’s an awfully big blanket you’ve set out.

Oh I’m sure someone takes it, the same person who takes Banshee’s Wail without a warhorn equipped.

But it stands: there is no good reason that an MM should have those traits. I keep having people say “well what if an MM takes Vampiric Precision!!1!”, and its just an annoying and ignorant statement; like asking what if an MM takes Vampiric Rituals. It shouldn’t ever happen because it is an incredibly subpar trait to take. Same with Bloodthirst.

Bhawb.7408:

Oh I’m sure someone takes it, the same person who takes Banshee’s Wail without a warhorn equipped.

But it stands: there is no good reason that an MM should have those traits. I keep having people say “well what if an MM takes Vampiric Precision!!1!”, and its just an annoying and ignorant statement; like asking what if an MM takes Vampiric Rituals. It shouldn’t ever happen because it is an incredibly subpar trait to take. Same with Bloodthirst.

It is not an ignorant statement, that is your opinion. You cannot compare VR to VP, that is not the same at all. VR relies on utilities just like VM doesn, they directly compete. VP does not compete with either, it relies on a stat choice, and competes with other traits which you are fond of listing.

The bottom line is that you do not think a MM would ever take VP(which equates to player survival) over some of the other traits(that equate to minion/ally survival). I am not ‘ignorant’ enough to speak in absolutes, but I will say that if a trait like VP is made strong enough, it will be an option, and will possibly make a Necro too tough to kill if they trait for full siphons.

You also seem to think no MM ever stats for crit. Soldiers is great for survival, but Knights is a perfectly viable option for balanced builds and actually increases the effectiveness of all that self healing.

MMs don’t take VP not because it requires precision (although that helps), but because its just plain worse than the other options. That’s it, it is literally just an issue of math, VP is worse than the other options in that line. Even if it were buffed to the point of being useful to a standard non-MM build, it would still be subpar on MM builds. They could literally take VP as it is right now, double its effectiveness, and it would STILL remain subpar to Mark of Evasion.

To show what I mean: Mark of Evasion applies 2 stacks of 8s Bleeding. Even with 0 condition damage, that will total around 80 DPS. VP deals around 40-50 damage per crit. This means you’d need to get 2 crits per second to exceed the damage of MoE, with MoE at its worst possible use. Not only that, but the regen on MoE will just flat out always out-scale VP’s healing, not only to yourself, but to up to 4 extra targets in the area (you know, minions?).

This will remain a fact as long as the MM “meta” stays as it does and Blood Magic triats remain balanced. VP is flat out bad in any full MM build, end of story.

Oslaf Beinir.5842:

we are not an “at·tri·tion” class.

we don’t even have enough tools to be that.

I’d even argue our class is suffering from an identity crisis.

everyone +1 this man’s comment.

Bhawb.7408:

MMs don’t take VP not because it requires precision (although that helps), but because its just plain worse than the other options. That’s it, it is literally just an issue of math, VP is worse than the other options in that line. Even if it were buffed to the point of being useful to a standard non-MM build, it would still be subpar on MM builds. They could literally take VP as it is right now, double its effectiveness, and it would STILL remain subpar to Mark of Evasion.

To show what I mean: Mark of Evasion applies 2 stacks of 8s Bleeding. Even with 0 condition damage, that will total around 80 DPS. VP deals around 40-50 damage per crit. This means you’d need to get 2 crits per second to exceed the damage of MoE, with MoE at its worst possible use. Not only that, but the regen on MoE will just flat out always out-scale VP’s healing, not only to yourself, but to up to 4 extra targets in the area (you know, minions?).

This will remain a fact as long as the MM “meta” stays as it does and Blood Magic triats remain balanced. VP is flat out bad in any full MM build, end of story.

I am talking healing wise…
With just 30 points into Blood Magic no gear or anything Mark of Evasion is 835 health from the regen, 10 second cool down which call also be removed and corrupted – into Poison i would assume

Vampiric Precision is 39 healing every time you crit, Say you have 25% Crit chance, not much quite easy to do over the course of a 30second fight

what would give the most healing?
Mark of Evasion would be 2,505 used 3 times on cool down
How much roughly would/could you get from VP in that same 30seconds assuming you have 25% crit chance?

Dagger mainhand would proc Vampiric Precision approximately 15 times during 30 seconds (2 seconds to complete the auto attack chain, 4 hits in the chain). That’s only 585 healing, which is less than a single mark of evasion. Using Life Siphon on cooldown would not change these numbers much.

So yeah, even on that front, Vampiric Precision just loses to other choices. This is even assuming you can land every single attack.

Like Drarnor said, VP requires a massive amount of proccing to be worthwhile, so it is effectively barred from MMs due to the very nature of what it requires: a lot of setup to have high chances to proc, whereas an MM is going to spend that setup time instead setting up minions and combos with them.

I’d love to see BT/VP buffed, but they will always stay a subpar choice for MMs compared to MoE, or Transfusion, unless ANet does something really crazy.