Guild Wars 2

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

I was only referring to the traits there. In the case of Regeneration as a boon, it would be best (for consistency’s sake) if it either worked or did not work in death shroud. No “well, the Regeneration from this trait works, but not other Regeneration.”

I’m going to guess it would be easier for the devs just to have it not work in ds, but I wouldn’t complain if it worked in ds.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

I was only referring to the traits there. In the case of Regeneration as a boon, it would be best (for consistency’s sake) if it either worked or did not work in death shroud. No “well, the Regeneration from this trait works, but not other Regeneration.”

True. For consistency’s sake it would be best if it works in death shroud. Since all the other boons also do their kittening job in death shroud.

RashanDale.3609:

@manuveruppd: In addition to Dark path’s tracking, speed and range being vastly buffed, i think mobility on most classes across the board needs to be cut dow or come with more severe drawbacks.
As it is right now, it seems to me that Anet underestimated the value of mobility-skills compared to other skills.

I agree with that too. Range is basically meaningless, it can be closed instantly with charges and teleports. Frankly I think even basic movement speed could use a 10% nerf.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Death Shroud is the most difficult mechanic in the game to balance. It has to not be overbearing for a single foe while also being enough to protect the Necro from multiple opponents. I don’t envy ANet in the slightest for having to balance it.

I also don’t feel any sympathy, because they did bring it on themselves :p

It’s true. There’s very little that’s tougher than a necro with a full life bar, and very little that’s squishier than one with an empty one.

I’ve said it before, the sooner life force stops being extra health and becomes an energy bar for powering DS skills, the better.

NeXeD.3042:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

I was only referring to the traits there. In the case of Regeneration as a boon, it would be best (for consistency’s sake) if it either worked or did not work in death shroud. No “well, the Regeneration from this trait works, but not other Regeneration.”

I’m going to guess it would be easier for the devs just to have it not work in ds, but I wouldn’t complain if it worked in ds.

My guess would be that the easiest change is allowing everything instead of building in exceptions to the rule like Unholy Sanctuary. (which btw is… I wouldn’t say “dog poop” but it’s terrible for being a Death Magic grandmaster trait.)

Also, I’m surprised that Drarnor would use the word consistency to argue for or against regeneration working in DS.
First of all, the only consistent thing to do here is to allow all sources of healing.
Secondly, if you think about allowing regeneration you can only come to two conclusions: You either don’t allow it at all, which for consistency sake wouldn’t make any sense of course.
Or you allow it along with ally healing, because the “only traited” regeneration simply wouldn’t work.
Example: Let’s say you have 2 points in Blood Magic with Mark of Evasion. What happens if you dodge into an opponent who happens to trigger a precast Marks of Blood while you’re falling below 90% hp and getting regeneration applied by an ally? In that case you’d have 4 stacks of regen on yourself, all from different sources. So… do you allow traited regeneration? Is Mark of Evasion a trait or a skill? Is your allies regeneration just regeneration or getting healed by an ally?
Making any kind of restriction here would just be chaos, not to mention losing out on skillful play when you can’t tell if you are getting healed by regen or not. So just don’t be a hypocrite about this and skip straight to all heals allowed.

OK, things to bear in mind, cause you guys seem to be talking at cross-purposes:

1. Healing used to be allowed in DS back in beta, and it was OP. ANet are therefore terrified of doing it again. But one thing to remember: damage today is MUCH higher than it was back in beta. There’s been ridiculous power creep. So I don’t think it would make necros invulnerable by any means.

2. I don’t think any of the people arguing for healing to be allowed through DS in this thread are also saying that DS should otherwise be left the way it is, giving you an extra 120% health. Bear that in mind when you’re responding to their arguments.

3. Like I said in my last post, I’m in favour of a full redesign of DS, turning it into an energy bar for DS skills rather than extra health. However, that’s a long term goal.

4. As a stopgap, I would be in favour of small incremental changes, such as self-traited healing and life steals to go through DS. That’s a change they could make NEXT WEEK.

5. I would also be in favour of reducing the amount of DS you get if the above change were to happen. 120% HP is too much when it’s full. In exchange, some buffs to LF generation (especially for condi builds) should happen.

6. As far as Regeneration goes: remove it from self-traited effects. Turn Full of Life into “your next attack steals health when you drop below 90% health”. Make Mark of Blood similarly give each ally within the aoe a single stack of the lifesteal buff, as per Leeching sigils, instead of Regeneration. Allow lifestealing from all sources to heal through DS. Regeneration applied by allies still doesn’t heal you.

I don’t think this would solve necromancer sustain problems, but it’s a start. Personally, I would much rather have better stunbreaks and escapes than more healing and more DS. I know you can soak up a lot of damage, and possibly even survive and kill the other guy, with good life force generation, but sitting in DS while stunned or knocked down soaking up damage is incrediblly boring.

I’m a bit new to necro: they have sustain problems? Can someone explain?

I thought deathshroud acted as a buffer for your cooldowns, including your heal. If you healed, went into deathshroud and stayed in it for 10 seconds, then its as if your heal had 10 seconds off because you weren’t taking damage during that time when relevant to your health over time.

If you used consume conditions, then were in deathshroud for 25 seconds, your consume conditions would be ready to use again, and relevant to your health per second, it’s as if you did two in a row, no?

that’s all very well and good against one person… when you start to up that number deathshroud gets less and less desirable, that 10 seconds against one guy is about 2 seconds against a coordinated team, where as an engie popping gear shield can stand in a 100 man zerg and be fine.

also ds takes away all stun breaks condi clears healing and your normal skills. depending on your build going into ds can be a significant dps loss. you are basically a sitting duck

@Dranor: Good points. Even though the self traited healing is just a start it would bring some more possibilities and from that point we can see how things change.

manveruppd.7601:

OK, things to bear in mind, cause you guys seem to be talking at cross-purposes:

-snip-

1. Apart from “powercreep” i am still not convinced that these testing phases were more than a typical hotjoin match between people not having excess to ressource like meta battle and comparable build collections (dante’s posts).

2. Yes, change healing traits to what was suggested and leave DS alone. Also DS gives you an additional 60-78% of your current life, not 120%, and this assumes you got a full bar of life force at your disposal.

3,4,5 that’s more a thing for specialization and i don’t think they’ll ever significantly change this mechanic, eg in the way you suggested, for the necro class. This is too much work to do.

Also you personally would like more escapes but they said countless times that this is not what the necro is about.
Our stunbreakers are okay but i’ll address some of the perceived issues below.

@WEXXES susatin questions: Depending on game mode necro has not really noticeable sustain issues or, in structured pvp for example, kinda sucks hard. This is really noticeable in comparison to other classes. Shoutbow (war), medi guard, cele enig, d/d ele and some ranger builds sustain way better in a fight because they have tools for recovery. And these recovery tools aren’t simply healing skill + dmg absorb like in necros case. While these classes wait for the recharge, they get effects like regen, shoutheal, mediheal, backpack regen, water att heal, heal on dodge, what-do-i-know-ranger-signet-or-trait-heals. So overall they get lots of additional healing.
Couple this with the extreme CC vulnerability of necros in DS, which leads to either going out of it to stunbreak CC or cleansing/transfering immobs, or sitting out the CC duration and lacking any dmg appliance for up to 3-4 seconds (knockdowns, immob, some stuns).
Since you can’t retaliate back while you are CC’ed all this passive and little heal accumulates to some decent health in a timeframe in which they hit you, but you can’t retaliate back.
Also DS is a finite ressource that is opponent dependent (people hitting you while spec armor is on, landing life force generating skills in general) while healing is either passive and every other second, or only cd dependent. So they can do the game longer if they simply outplay your sustain, which is possible vs a necro.

Edit: Just think about this: line of sight as one of the mentioned builds for 5 secs and you get a significant amount of health, independent from your healing skill, and defensive cd’s back (blocks, dodges, blind, invul). Line of sight as a necro for 5 sec and where is your additional health? Only in your healing skill. Where is additional life force? Depends on cd’s and hitting someone to aquire.

And yes, i am aware that exactly the last bit is how necro is designed to be. Needing to hit stuff and be aggressive to sustain yourself in a fight. The thing is, even if you do this it is not enough with the exception of completely ignoring a sustain based fighting approach and trying your luck in burst wonderland (zerker well).

manveruppd.7601:

I agree with that too. Range is basically meaningless, it can be closed instantly with charges and teleports. Frankly I think even basic movement speed could use a 10% nerf.

I think the movespeed is fine, actually. Since base movespeed affects everyone, this doesnt change much, except for making blinks/shadowsteps stronger.
It’s only the leaps/dashes/blinks that need some nerfing.

I’ve said it before, the sooner life force stops being extra health and becomes an energy bar for powering DS skills, the better.

agree with bellamy here. this might be good for a specialisation, but i like my death shroud and want to keep it.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Fine, fine. I can guarantee that would be the next Dhuumfire fiasco. You sure you want that?

Again, because “health” is a Necro’s only real defense, they have to be extremely careful with how much Necros get. It is extremely easy to make a Necro nigh impossible to kill with anything but team focus fire. Increasing the amount of “health” we have is a very delicate process for balancing. Would I like full healing in death shroud? Well, yeah, sure. Do I think it would be healthy? Not right now I don’t. I’m more interested in keeping the profession balanced and healthy for the game than “being on par with other classes.”

Funny how you say it would be the next dhuumfire fiasco. We have had eles and engis and and warriors thieves for 12 month peroids who are so OP that 2 of them often find their way into teams. Even at the height of necro people only ran 1 of them. Necros are self hating imo. We are used to have flawed mechanics and a weak class so that whenever we get something OP we all say “this is wrong!”. When eles get something OP they just expect it. Because their expectations are higher because they have been best in game (in pvp/wvw) for most of the games duration.

To be viable in current gw2 with sigil procs, massive healing, perma vigor/prot, massive mobility, 15s dodging heals, spammable teleports, 13k bursts from range out of stealth then you need to have broken stuff. Necro needs to be broken to compete.

leman.7682:

I want to be able to sustain myself mostly through a skillful use of my own skills and partially through a good coordination with the team.

I don’t think healing needs to work in Death Shroud. Necro with Life Force is a very survivable profession. Still susceptible to CC, but survivable nonetheless. What it lacks in sustainability or the ability to replenish health, it gains in LF generation and being able to burn through the life pool for much longer than other professions.

What I want is some reliable sustainability outside of builds that rely heavily on DS and LF generation. I feel these builds lack sustain.
How to make it so that you can’t combine both LF builds with sustainable build making an ultimate sponge necro with a health pool that can’t go below, say, 10k? I have no idea.

I agree.

I want LF generation to be a thing which just happens for a necro all the time. The amount of times, when in not OP teams, I find I have no LF is amazing. And without LF I lose everything. I suck offensively and defensively.

@Bellamy: You only lose 1 point of life force for every 2 damage you take, so it is, in effect, 120% of your HP (base).

@flow: Or, just “Regeneration, regardless of source, heals a Necromancer in death shroud.” Doesn’t have to be “Regeneration and all ally healing.”

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

@flow: Or, just “Regeneration, regardless of source, heals a Necromancer in death shroud.” Doesn’t have to be “Regeneration and all ally healing.”

So an exception to the exception of the exception… great -_-

Bellamy.9860:

Also DS gives you an additional 60-78% of your current life, not 120%, and this assumes you got a full bar of life force at your disposal.

The displyed number is 60-78%, but the actual value is double.
People either refer to that bug by saying there’s a 50% dmg reduction or a 120% lf pool. There seems to be no difference, but the reason why you would assume one over the other is only evident once you take damage that overflows to your regular health pool. For example: you have 1k hp and 500 lf. If you are in DS and take 500 damage your lf pool would drop down to 250. But if you take 501 dmg you’re left with no life force and 999 hp. So that would make it seem more likely that there is a dmg reduction when dmg is exclusively taken to the lf pool, rather than a part of that damage value is doubled if some of it overflows to your regular hp.
It’s been like this for 1.5 years now. It was introduced with the same patch we were able to take overflow damage. And it happened around the same time they implemented the fix to the issues of us taking double damage in downed state. Maybe those to issues are somehow related, after all the current Death Shroud used to be the necros downed state at some time before the game was released.

flow.6043:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

@flow: Or, just “Regeneration, regardless of source, heals a Necromancer in death shroud.” Doesn’t have to be “Regeneration and all ally healing.”

So an exception to the exception of the exception… great -_-

Not an exception. There is a huge difference between “no Regeneration works,” “this Regeneration works, but no other sources of Regeneration,” “all sources of Regeneration work,” and “all healing from allies works.”

The first is what we have now. The second is what should not happen to prevent confusion. The third is the most clear (do I have Regeneration? Then I’m healing) while remaining conservative, and the fourth is the opposite extreme from what we have now.

Not “an exception to the exception of the exception” like you say.

flow.6043:

Bellamy.9860:

Also DS gives you an additional 60-78% of your current life, not 120%, and this assumes you got a full bar of life force at your disposal.

The displyed number is 60-78%, but the actual value is double.
People either refer to that bug by saying there’s a 50% dmg reduction or a 120% lf pool. There seems to be no difference, but the reason why you would assume one over the other is only evident once you take damage that overflows to your regular health pool. For example: you have 1k hp and 500 lf. If you are in DS and take 500 damage your lf pool would drop down to 250. But if you take 501 dmg you’re left with no life force and 999 hp. So that would make it seem more likely that there is a dmg reduction when dmg is exclusively taken to the lf pool, rather than a part of that damage value is doubled if some of it overflows to your regular hp.
It’s been like this for 1.5 years now. It was introduced with the same patch we were able to take overflow damage. And it happened around the same time they implemented the fix to the issues of us taking double damage in downed state. Maybe those to issues are somehow related, after all the current Death Shroud used to be the necros downed state at some time before the game was released.

This is true. I suspect the connection has a lot to do with it as well.

Honestly, if they had us take normal damage in death shroud, I would be much less hesitant for full healing in death shroud. Still a little iffy, but much less so.

Bellamy.9860:

1. Apart from “powercreep” i am still not convinced that these testing phases were more than a typical hotjoin match between people not having excess to ressource like meta battle and comparable build collections (dante’s posts).

Oh I completely agree, I’m not saying that their fear of giving us healing in DS is justified purely on the strength of a few thousand scrubs who had never played the game before running around in perma-DS on the game’s first ever beta! I think it wouldn’t be nearly as bad if they did it now.

2. Yes, change healing traits to what was suggested and leave DS alone. Also DS gives you an additional 60-78% of your current life, not 120%, and this assumes you got a full bar of life force at your disposal.

Like others have said there’s the “damage reduction” or whatever you want to call it (I like “gamebreaking bug” personally :p ). It was around for months before I was told about it, I tested using falling damage and couldn’t believe it actually worked.

3,4,5 that’s more a thing for specialization and i don’t think they’ll ever significantly change this mechanic, eg in the way you suggested, for the necro class. This is too much work to do.

I don’t think they’ll do it either. It’s what I would’ve done though and I think the class would’ve been much better for it imho.

Also you personally would like more escapes but they said countless times that this is not what the necro is about.

You say that, but then further down in your post you complain about how vulnerable we are to CC, and how unfun it is to just sit there not fighting, waiting for them to stop knocking you around like a ping pong ball. So I take it we agree that, whatever ANet say the necro is “about”, what they’re saying is stupid?

And yes, i am aware that exactly the last bit is how necro is designed to be. Needing to hit stuff and be aggressive to sustain yourself in a fight. The thing is, even if you do this it is not enough with the exception of completely ignoring a sustain based fighting approach and trying your luck in burst wonderland (zerker well).

Yeah but good design doesn’t dictate gameplay style. Guardians can play very conservatively and defensively or they can go full burst. Elementalists the same (in fact they can do both playstyles in the same build!), and warriors to an extent. Mesmers not so much, I only see zerker shatter mesmers in pvp these days, though bunkery PU mesmers are still apparently running around lower down the ladder. Even thieves to a small extent have a modicum of choice over how many stealths and evades they bring to a fight. But necro is the only class whose playstyle is dictated by its class mechanic, because they decided that since we can have from 0-120% more health than everyone else we don’t deserve mobility, escapes, vigor, and invulnerabilities. This isn’t a “design philosophy”, it’s a balancing nightmare with “Oh, I meant to do that, honest” sloppily painted over the cracks.

Lordrosicky.5813:

We have had eles and engis and and warriors thieves for 12 month peroids who are so OP that 2 of them often find their way into teams. Even at the height of necro people only ran 1 of them. Necros are self hating imo. We are used to have flawed mechanics and a weak class so that whenever we get something OP we all say “this is wrong!”.

That felt so true I wanted to cry! :p

im just imagining a necro getting really low on health while fighting at mid 3v3 with his engi and ele teammates necro get focused allys peel necro pops SA goes into DS engi healling turrets ele water attunes dodges and blasts and hits 5. Now there us a necro wioth good health and a ton of DS. rinse and repeat as needed when the necro is unable to use CC

Yeah, well, so what? The ele can heal the engi while he’s using Elixir S or gear shield, the engi can heal the ele while he’s in mist form or using Obsidian Skin, both COMPLETE invulnerabilities rather than life force-gated ones like DS.

flow.6043:

So an exception to the exception of the exception… great -_-

uh no, it’d really just one exception:

allied healing doesnt work, except regen.

all regen works, no exceptions here.

all boons work, no exceptions there either.

@Nexed: what exactly are you trying to say/imply?

RashanDale.3609:

flow.6043:

So an exception to the exception of the exception… great -_-

uh no, it’d really just one exception:

allied healing doesnt work, except regen.

all regen works, no exceptions here.

all boons work, no exceptions there either.

Depends on how you want to phrase it.
I might as well say: Healing is now allowed through DS (which up until then used to be the single exception to all other defensive mechanisms in the game), except for healing from allies… expect if it’s regeneration applied by an ally, then it’s still working like the rest of our self-applied heals…

NeXeD.3042:

im just imagining a necro getting really low on health while fighting at mid 3v3 with his engi and ele teammates necro get focused allys peel necro pops SA goes into DS engi healling turrets ele water attunes dodges and blasts and hits 5. Now there us a necro wioth good health and a ton of DS. rinse and repeat as needed when the necro is unable to use CC

flow.6043:

… I know you are thinking of a very specific outlier scenario right now in which the planets align and a necro would get healed for an obscene amount of hp while sitting in Shroud… but the counter argument to whatever you can come up with is and always will be: other classes would do even better.

Also, the fight you’re describing wouldn’t be a rinse-repeat scenario at all unless your opponets are super bad.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Honestly, if they had us take normal damage in death shroud, I would be much less hesitant for full healing in death shroud. Still a little iffy, but much less so.

For the sake of having a bug-free game, I’d rather have the damage reduction removed as well. But an actual 60% lf pool would be way too low, even (or should I say especially) for power builds. So how about an even 100%.

60% with no damage reduction would be fine by me if they reduced the recharge times and usability of our stunbreaks (especially fixing the occasional glitching on Flesh Wurm), and improving LF generation for condi necro.

manveruppd.7601:

Because all the skills you mentioned (except Dark Pact, which is weak because it has a low range and high cast time) apply soft CC, which is almost useless in this game. It’s too easy to cleanse and its uptime (duration/recharge) is extremely low, so hard to reapply once cleansed.

If you think soft cc is useless in PvP formats, then I don’t know what to tell you. If you want to complain about the uptime of cripple / chill / immobilize on Necromancer skillsets, then there’s a conversation to be had, but writing off those effects entirely is pretty questionable.

Moreover, teleport/shadowstep skills completely ignore its effects, because, unlike charge skills, their range is unaffected by movement speed reduction. So thieves, mesmers, and sword guardians are basically immune to chill and cripple. The only classes whose mobility is seriously hurt by it are elementalists and warriors, and both of them have decent cleanses.

Just for the record: Guardian’s Sword 2 can only warp them towards a selected target. The target can be out of range (which is an annoying advantage over Dark Path), but it still requires them to have an opponent visible in a certain direction. The other examples certainly do have abilities which make them able to escape despite chill & cripple.

Also, don’t you dare call Dark Path a teleport. If you have swiftness you can LITERALLY outrun your own Dark Path projectile! It’s a good in-combat skill with all the bleeds and chill, but useless as a gap closer. If you cast it at over 600 range, your target is quite likely to outrun it and you’ll get an “out of range” message! All they need is a single movement skill and they’ll get past the maximum 1200 range!

I get what you mean about ‘teleport’, since the jump only triggers after (if) Dark Path hits a target. Still, if I recall correctly the distance is traveled isn’t reduced by chill / cripple and is executed in one instantaneous moment, so it’s not a leap skill like heartseeker.
Also, you can’t use swiftness to outrun your Dark Path projectile while outside of combat, let alone once a fight has started. You’re correct in that it’s slow, though. An unhindered opponent at 600 probably has enough of a head start to get to its fizzle distance, and a proper movement skill nearly guarantees it.

Softspoken.2410:

If you think soft cc is useless in PvP formats, then I don’t know what to tell you. If you want to complain about the uptime of cripple / chill / immobilize on Necromancer skillsets, then there’s a conversation to be had, but writing off those effects entirely is pretty questionable.

No, I admit I exaggerated, it’s not completely useless but it’s severely underpowered compared to hard CC. For them to come into their own, teleports and movement skills will need to be nerfed, as it’s too easy to ignore soft snares when you have so many movement skills.

I get what you mean about ‘teleport’, since the jump only triggers after (if) Dark Path hits a target. Still, if I recall correctly the distance is traveled isn’t reduced by chill / cripple and is executed in one instantaneous moment, so it’s not a leap skill like heartseeker.

I know it actually IS a teleport! I’m just saying it’s useless AS a teleport, as you can run to your target in almost the same time it takes for the projectile to get there! People use it for the chill and damage (bleeds, boon corruption), not as a gap closer.

To all those that answered my question: thanks!

I’ve played with unholy sanctuary. It s near OP in WvW.

You gain life force so fast in WvW that you feel invincible. You can sit in Death shroud for a long time. You can run around in plague form until your health runs out then run around in death shroud long enough to heal up/secure a safe heal.

But this game isn’t balanced around WvW.

Necromancer sources of self healing are a couple ticks of regeneration from weapons and well of blood, a regeneration minor in blood, and siphons. Siphons in Death shroud cannot be OP because death shroud hits so slowly. Regeneration isn’t OP because anet basically gifts that to necromancers with unholy sanctuary.

The only one that might be OP is life transfer. Perhaps that can be recoded to not heal the necromancer. Or maybe that should be moved to master/grandmaster.

Or perhaps blood traits should be very good because the boon duration healing trait line in a class with bad healing scaling and poor access to boons better be good.

Necromancer access to allied healing likewise isn’t OP because it does not fix the weakness of the necromancer needing somebody to peel for it. Allied healing is basically blasts of water fields, Traited shouts, and regeneration.

nekretaal.6485:

The only one that might be OP is life transfer. Perhaps that can be recoded to not heal the necromancer. Or maybe that should be moved to master/grandmaster.

It certainly can, so it becomes part of transfusion. Or it heals but doesnt increase life force anymore. that wouldnt be that OP either.

Or perhaps blood traits should be very good because the boon duration healing trait line in a class with bad healing scaling and poor access to boons better be good.

I dont get this part, at all. what does blood magic have to do with our boon traitline?

but yeah, if we already have stats of a traitline wasted on boon duration, we better get some good (boon-providing) minors in it.

RashanDale.3609:

nekretaal.6485:

The only one that might be OP is life transfer. Perhaps that can be recoded to not heal the necromancer. Or maybe that should be moved to master/grandmaster.

It certainly can, so it becomes part of transfusion. Or it heals but doesnt increase life force anymore. that wouldnt be that OP either.

I could definitely go for that: “Transfusion: Life Transfer heals the user and nearby allies instead of granting additional life force”

Or perhaps blood traits should be very good because the boon duration healing trait line in a class with bad healing scaling and poor access to boons better be good.

I dont get this part, at all. what does blood magic have to do with our boon traitline?

but yeah, if we already have stats of a traitline wasted on boon duration, we better get some good (boon-providing) minors in it.

Oh that’s completely true and I never noticed it before: Spiteful Vigor and Ritual of Protection are the only traits in our Boon Duration line that actually give boons – and they’re both very short duration boons too! Meanwhile, we can get Retaliation and Might from Spite, Fury from Curses, Regeneration from Blood Magic, and the most important boon in the game, Stability, from Soul Reaping! It’s kinda ridiculous, as if it’s deliberately designed to give us as little access to boons as possible by making it impossible to invest in both boon traits and boon duration…

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

you always leave Death Shroud with more health than you went in.

Here are things I think we can all agree on:

1. self-traited healing needs to work through death shroud. This is to prevent conflicting mechanics, one of which is core to the profession.

2. Party UI needs to indicate that a Necro is in Death Shroud to prevent wasted panic heals. Even if a Necro could be healed while in death shroud, if the UI shows a Necro (who is actually in death shroud) is low on health, people will try to heal him, even if he’s actually full health.

3. Some cast times are too long for their effect, making the Necro more susceptible to CC than they really should be.

Can we all agree on those three points?

first point not a big issue but coming out of death shroud (if i’m not mistaken) procs confusion so you can come out of death shroud with less hp

I agree with the 3 point however
the regeneration boon (all sources)
our heal skills (healing from blood fiend, SoV, WoB pulses)
need to work in death shroud too

a regen banner warrior running dungeons only really doesn’t like to see necromancer which i think falls short of the guild wars 2 vision

Just remember people, If regen and vamprisim traits were to heal through DS, it would be stackable with Unholy Sanctuary. So its practically double the regen, mixed with life steal procs, it can get ridiculous amounts of healing in DS.

Lucentfir.7430:

Just remember people, If regen and vamprisim traits were to heal through DS, it would be stackable with Unholy Sanctuary. So its practically double the regen, mixed with life steal procs, it can get ridiculous amounts of healing in DS.

Now if only we could do something usefull for the team instead of being the selfish tank.

Lucentfir.7430:

Just remember people, If regen and vamprisim traits were to heal through DS, it would be stackable with Unholy Sanctuary. So its practically double the regen, mixed with life steal procs, it can get ridiculous amounts of healing in DS.

Then they can adjust or rethink unholy sanctuary. Maybe have it apply regen for 3 seconds every 3 seconds while in DS (or something similar) so that it doesn’t stack with regen. There are other professions though that can get around 1k HPS and aren’t remotely “OP”, though, and kitten build can’t get too much damage.

Bhawb.7408:

Lucentfir.7430:

Just remember people, If regen and vamprisim traits were to heal through DS, it would be stackable with Unholy Sanctuary. So its practically double the regen, mixed with life steal procs, it can get ridiculous amounts of healing in DS.

Then they can adjust or rethink unholy sanctuary…

Keep in mind, this would be a build with 6 points in Death Magic and at least 3 points in Blood Magic. The loss of damage would be huge, a fair trade for an occasional ~300 hp/s in DS. (which is no where near ridiculous btw)

RashanDale.3609:

all boons work, no exceptions there either.

^This. End of topic.
On a more serious note, just make all boons work in DS. Make it the first step.
It would seem to be reasonably balanced.
In 1v1 it wouldn’t be OP as necros themselves have no access to mass amount of healing sustain – Regeneration (the boon) – , unless they would go for some cheesy tank build with runes and so. But in that case they would sacrifice nearly all their damage output, just like a normal bunker (guardian) would do, which means they wouldn’t pose much of a threat.
In team fights (2v2/3v3) necros could benefit from the cele classes just like every other currently available class.
- thieves can dodge/evade
- guardians block/invuln
- mesmers distortion/blurred frenzy
…
and get healed during the process

(+ fix siphoning in Shroud obv.)