Guild Wars 2

I have two ideas on the table, one of them improves the numbers, and one of them improves stealing life based on condition damage.

Vampiric Precision.
At level 80, grants about 164 health per critical hit or 246 health with the trait Bloodthirst.

Vampiric
Heals for 164 HP at level 80 or 246 HP with the Bloodthirst trait.

Vampiric Rituals
At level 80, heals the player for 164 health per enemy affected (up to five targets), per pulse, per well. Unaffected by Healing Power.

(This is now effected by Bloodthirst, and heals for 246 per pulse.)

Necromancers have no Mobility, they cannot run away like other classes and healing power does not even effect most of our traits, we deserve to have good sustain. (as the class says we should.) but its stupid that we don’t have nearly the healing we deserve to have.

Besides increasing the heals, stealing life ignores armor, so why not make it be effected by “Condition Damage.”, since its pretty much conditional damage?

Vampiric Precision:
At level 80, grants about 32 + (0.125 * Condition Damage) health per critical hit. Unaffected by Healing Power.

Vampiric
At level 80, heals for 25 + (0.095 * Condition Damage) health per hit. Unaffected by Healing Power.

Vampiric Rituals
At level 80, heals the player for 42 + (0.175 * Condition Damage) health per enemy affected (up to five targets), per pulse, per well. Unaffected by Healing Power.

The condition damage makes the life stolen more, and gives the necromancer more healing.

Remember to take into account that life force generation is a form of sustain, since life force stands in for HP during Death Shroud.

They just need to fix the traits. IIRC none of the life stealing traits scale with healing power. Also bloodthirst doesn’t affect all life stealing skills either. And lastly some life stealing traits are just woefully underpowered like vampiric rituals.

And what’s that per second with a dagger assuming 50% crit? About 750+ health a second… Annnddd the same increase in damage…

Yeah, I’d love this too! Along with heavy armour, permanent retaliation and immunity to conditions. /facepalm

Daecollo.9578:

Besides increasing the heals, stealing life ignores armor, so why not make it be effected by “Condition Damage.”, since its pretty much conditional damage?

No… as lore states the amount of power a necromancer can siphon from enemies is proportional to how adept he is at blood and life (force) manipulation. Thus either power or vitality.

Andele.1306:

Daecollo.9578:

Besides increasing the heals, stealing life ignores armor, so why not make it be effected by “Condition Damage.”, since its pretty much conditional damage?

No… as lore states the amount of power a necromancer can siphon from enemies is proportional to how adept he is at blood and life (force) manipulation. Thus either power or vitality.

Should be vitality then.

Life steal should give Life Force as well as health.

Because Life Force is our defensive mechanic, all other professions defensive mechanics can be used within their regular health pool. Since we rely on both, stealing only life is only charging like half our survivability.

Or they could compensate that by just make it steal a lot more health.

@Pendragon

We get a second, separately refillable HP bar… therefore we need more HP sustain? wut?DS isn’t our only defensive tool, its our class mechanic, which happens to function amazingly well for defense.

Bhawb.7408:

@Pendragon

We get a second, separately refillable HP bar… therefore we need more HP sustain? wut?DS isn’t our only defensive tool, its our class mechanic, which happens to function amazingly well for defense.

So investing in healing power on a set that heals shouldn’t give you any benefit because every necromancer has death shroud what? Might as well make everyone a power or condition necro then.

He said that Life steal should give life force as well, so every time I steal health I should also get life force. His post and my response had absolutely nothing to do with healing power.

Daecollo.9578:

Vampiric Precision.
At level 80, grants about 164 health per critical hit or 246 health with the trait Bloodthirst.

Vampiric
Heals for 164 HP at level 80 or 246 HP with the Bloodthirst trait.

Vampiric Rituals
At level 80, heals the player for 164 health per enemy affected (up to five targets), per pulse, per well. Unaffected by Healing Power.

I agree these 3 skills need buffing but I think your values may be too high.

For Vampiric Precision and Vampiric, I would cut the values a bit. At lvl 80 they should heal for about 100 and 150 with Bloodthirst. But as the values stand on live right now, they are ridiculous useless. I know they don’t want to have healing too OP but whats the point of even having these?

As for the well, wouldn’t that heal for an extra 2.5k with bloodsurge (using blood well)? Seems like a bit doesn’t it, considering its an aoe heal. And that still leaves two other wells will 4 or 5 pulses each.

But I can’t say this enough. Please buff Vampiric and Vampiric Precision!

All vampiric traits (vampiric, vampiric precision, vampiric master, vampiric rituals) health gain should be affected by healing power and damage affected by power and there… half of the problem is solved.
Also bloodthirst should affect all forms of life siphon.
Transfusion and Deathly Invigoration should also get some love.

The level at which necromancers can heal is currently laughable compared to most other classes.

But I understand Anet’s cautious approach toward this as it can easily turn into something overpowered.

Burjis.3087:

All vampiric traits (vampiric, vampiric precision, vampiric master, vampiric rituals) health gain should be affected by healing power and damage affected by power and there… half of the problem is solved.
Also bloodthirst should affect all forms of life siphon.
Transfusion and Deathly Invigoration should also get some love.

The level at which necromancers can heal is currently laughable compared to most other classes.

But I understand Anet’s cautious approach toward this as it can easily turn into something overpowered.

Agreed right now life healing isn’t all that great even if you get all traits, stack it regen foods, and runes. They could use a small boost by scaling with healing power but like you said it could turn ugly if it isn’t done right.

A heal signet thief chewing omnom will outperform a necromancer using traits…

digiowl.9620:

A heal signet thief chewing omnom will outperform a necromancer using traits…

You’re comparing a dedicated healing skill to a collection of two or three traits, one of which is a Master Minor trait. (Nourishment buffs aren’t really relevant from a class comparison perspective.)

Daecollo.9578:

I have two ideas on the table, one of them improves the numbers, and one of them improves stealing life based on condition damage.

Vampiric Precision.
At level 80, grants about 164 health per critical hit or 246 health with the trait Bloodthirst.

Vampiric
Heals for 164 HP at level 80 or 246 HP with the Bloodthirst trait.

Vampiric Rituals
At level 80, heals the player for 164 health per enemy affected (up to five targets), per pulse, per well. Unaffected by Healing Power.

(This is now effected by Bloodthirst, and heals for 246 per pulse.)

Necromancers have no Mobility, they cannot run away like other classes and healing power does not even effect most of our traits, we deserve to have good sustain. (as the class says we should.) but its stupid that we don’t have nearly the healing we deserve to have.

No offense but I’m just going to go ahead and break your suggestion here. Vampiric Precision grants 164 health per critical hit or 246 if you take Bloodthirst? I can now feasibly and safely stack a 60% critical chance while ignoring critical damage because, who needs critical damage when my ticks are going to heal me for 246 health a pop.

Now I’m going to go into combat, with my PVT build and easily put about 10 stacks of bleed on an opponent and at 60% critical chance it’s likely that 6 of my stacks will give me a critical hit and thus, provide me with 246 health per tick. That’s 1476 health a second and keep in mind it is statistically possible for all my ticks to critical and give me 2460 health a second. This isn’t including my potential extra bleed stacks and poison ticks. It’s mathematically feasible for me to heal for about 4k a second. Meanwhile, I have Well of Blood, so I can be an immobile fortress and heal for 5240 instantly while receiving extra health ticks.

The worse part about this whole example is that I didn’t even account for Healing Power, basic attack critical hits, or even slotting Superior Sigil of Blood in all my weapons.

tl;dr

Stop begging for the ability to be an undying Necromancer when you already have the potential to do so; it’s called Toughness and Vitality.

Too Frisky.9165:

Daecollo.9578:

I have two ideas on the table, one of them improves the numbers, and one of them improves stealing life based on condition damage.

Vampiric Precision.
At level 80, grants about 164 health per critical hit or 246 health with the trait Bloodthirst.

Vampiric
Heals for 164 HP at level 80 or 246 HP with the Bloodthirst trait.

Vampiric Rituals
At level 80, heals the player for 164 health per enemy affected (up to five targets), per pulse, per well. Unaffected by Healing Power.

(This is now effected by Bloodthirst, and heals for 246 per pulse.)

Necromancers have no Mobility, they cannot run away like other classes and healing power does not even effect most of our traits, we deserve to have good sustain. (as the class says we should.) but its stupid that we don’t have nearly the healing we deserve to have.

No offense but I’m just going to go ahead and break your suggestion here. Vampiric Precision grants 164 health per critical hit or 246 if you take Bloodthirst? I can now feasibly and safely stack a 60% critical chance while ignoring critical damage because, who needs critical damage when my ticks are going to heal me for 246 health a pop.

Now I’m going to go into combat, with my PVT build and easily put about 10 stacks of bleed on an opponent and at 60% critical chance it’s likely that 6 of my stacks will give me a critical hit and thus, provide me with 246 health per tick. That’s 1476 health a second and keep in mind it is statistically possible for all my ticks to critical and give me 2460 health a second. This isn’t including my potential extra bleed stacks and poison ticks. It’s mathematically feasible for me to heal for about 4k a second. Meanwhile, I have Well of Blood, so I can be an immobile fortress and heal for 5240 instantly while receiving extra health ticks.

The worse part about this whole example is that I didn’t even account for Healing Power, basic attack critical hits, or even slotting Superior Sigil of Blood in all my weapons.

tl;dr

Stop begging for the ability to be an undying Necromancer when you already have the potential to do so; it’s called Toughness and Vitality.

If you played a necromancer, you would know the traits are not effected by any stats.

Not everyone wishes to be a 30 point deathshroud necromancer, some of us want to be different, you have to have builds for us as well, or you kill the entire point of the class.

Life-stealing does NOT critical…

Life-stealing isn’t effected by power or healing power…

Lol…

…. It also does not trigger off dots…

I feel like a teacher writing marks off a students paper…

They need very minor flat buffs. Making them scale with healing would require ANet to nerf their base values to even lower amounts, so that people stacking huge healing power won’t become super-bunkers capable of soloing dungeon bosses (exaggeration).

And thats really it, I can’t remember if the 50% better siphoning works with all siphoning yet, and I’d prefer if they fixed our current bugs, bringing us in line with our real potential, than go overboard and buff us so we get nerf hammered later.

Daecollo.9578:

Too Frisky.9165:

Daecollo.9578:

I have two ideas on the table, one of them improves the numbers, and one of them improves stealing life based on condition damage.

Vampiric Precision.
At level 80, grants about 164 health per critical hit or 246 health with the trait Bloodthirst.

Vampiric
Heals for 164 HP at level 80 or 246 HP with the Bloodthirst trait.

Vampiric Rituals
At level 80, heals the player for 164 health per enemy affected (up to five targets), per pulse, per well. Unaffected by Healing Power.

(This is now effected by Bloodthirst, and heals for 246 per pulse.)

Necromancers have no Mobility, they cannot run away like other classes and healing power does not even effect most of our traits, we deserve to have good sustain. (as the class says we should.) but its stupid that we don’t have nearly the healing we deserve to have.

No offense but I’m just going to go ahead and break your suggestion here. Vampiric Precision grants 164 health per critical hit or 246 if you take Bloodthirst? I can now feasibly and safely stack a 60% critical chance while ignoring critical damage because, who needs critical damage when my ticks are going to heal me for 246 health a pop.

Now I’m going to go into combat, with my PVT build and easily put about 10 stacks of bleed on an opponent and at 60% critical chance it’s likely that 6 of my stacks will give me a critical hit and thus, provide me with 246 health per tick. That’s 1476 health a second and keep in mind it is statistically possible for all my ticks to critical and give me 2460 health a second. This isn’t including my potential extra bleed stacks and poison ticks. It’s mathematically feasible for me to heal for about 4k a second. Meanwhile, I have Well of Blood, so I can be an immobile fortress and heal for 5240 instantly while receiving extra health ticks.

The worse part about this whole example is that I didn’t even account for Healing Power, basic attack critical hits, or even slotting Superior Sigil of Blood in all my weapons.

tl;dr

Stop begging for the ability to be an undying Necromancer when you already have the potential to do so; it’s called Toughness and Vitality.

If you played a necromancer, you would know the traits are not effected by any stats.

Not everyone wishes to be a 30 point deathshroud necromancer, some of us want to be different, you have to have builds for us as well, or you kill the entire point of the class.

Life-stealing does NOT critical…

Life-stealing isn’t effected by power or healing power…

Lol…

…. It also does not trigger off dots…

Life steal doesn’t trigger off of DoTs? Then why on earth would you suggest a build focused on stealing health based on condition damage? You’ve immediately contradicted yourself. I play a Necromancer. I wasn’t referring to Life Steal anyways. You stated that getting a critical hit would grant health and DoTs can critical hit.

I have two ideas on the table, one of them improves the numbers, and one of them improves stealing life based on condition damage.

Vampiric Precision.
At level 80, grants about 164 health per critical hit or 246 health with the trait Bloodthirst.

I feel like a student correcting a professor who has no idea as to what he is talking about.

Too Frisky.9165:

Daecollo.9578:

Too Frisky.9165:

Daecollo.9578:

I have two ideas on the table, one of them improves the numbers, and one of them improves stealing life based on condition damage.

Vampiric Precision.
At level 80, grants about 164 health per critical hit or 246 health with the trait Bloodthirst.

Vampiric
Heals for 164 HP at level 80 or 246 HP with the Bloodthirst trait.

Vampiric Rituals
At level 80, heals the player for 164 health per enemy affected (up to five targets), per pulse, per well. Unaffected by Healing Power.

(This is now effected by Bloodthirst, and heals for 246 per pulse.)

Necromancers have no Mobility, they cannot run away like other classes and healing power does not even effect most of our traits, we deserve to have good sustain. (as the class says we should.) but its stupid that we don’t have nearly the healing we deserve to have.

No offense but I’m just going to go ahead and break your suggestion here. Vampiric Precision grants 164 health per critical hit or 246 if you take Bloodthirst? I can now feasibly and safely stack a 60% critical chance while ignoring critical damage because, who needs critical damage when my ticks are going to heal me for 246 health a pop.

Now I’m going to go into combat, with my PVT build and easily put about 10 stacks of bleed on an opponent and at 60% critical chance it’s likely that 6 of my stacks will give me a critical hit and thus, provide me with 246 health per tick. That’s 1476 health a second and keep in mind it is statistically possible for all my ticks to critical and give me 2460 health a second. This isn’t including my potential extra bleed stacks and poison ticks. It’s mathematically feasible for me to heal for about 4k a second. Meanwhile, I have Well of Blood, so I can be an immobile fortress and heal for 5240 instantly while receiving extra health ticks.

The worse part about this whole example is that I didn’t even account for Healing Power, basic attack critical hits, or even slotting Superior Sigil of Blood in all my weapons.

tl;dr

Stop begging for the ability to be an undying Necromancer when you already have the potential to do so; it’s called Toughness and Vitality.

If you played a necromancer, you would know the traits are not effected by any stats.

Not everyone wishes to be a 30 point deathshroud necromancer, some of us want to be different, you have to have builds for us as well, or you kill the entire point of the class.

Life-stealing does NOT critical…

Life-stealing isn’t effected by power or healing power…

Lol…

…. It also does not trigger off dots…

Life steal doesn’t trigger off of DoTs? Then why on earth would you suggest a build focused on stealing health based on condition damage? You’ve immediately contradicted yourself. I play a Necromancer. I wasn’t referring to Life Steal anyways. You stated that getting a critical hit would grant health and DoTs can critical hit.

I have two ideas on the table, one of them improves the numbers, and one of them improves stealing life based on condition damage.

Vampiric Precision.
At level 80, grants about 164 health per critical hit or 246 health with the trait Bloodthirst.

I feel like a student correcting a professor who has no idea as to what he is talking about.

Which sentence did I say dot’s crit and life steal triggered off dots?

Most Condition Necromancers run “Precision, Condition Damage, Toughness” as there primary stats. (Because of getting bleeds off critical.)

The reason I stated condition damage, is because necromancers are mostly based off conditions, and life stealing doesn’t “feel” like healing, more like your taking the life away from something.

Like Condition Damage, Life Steal damage ignores armor, so making it based off power wouldn’t work, since it ignores armor.

Life Stealing works on Vitality, because your basicly stealing life.
Life Stealing works on Healing Power, because … your healing? (technically, your not healing, your taking the life from someone else…)

Necromancer does not get endurance boosters, endurance regeneration, vigor or any boon that helps them avoid damage, they mostly have to eat it, therefore they should have healing on par with guardians and elementalist, which have superior mobility and dodges.

A life stealing necromancer would have atleast 20 points in Vitality, and 30 points into conditions for the critical (since we lack fury as well.), this leaves little points left to go into death shroud to make it the “uber health bar.” you speak of, most necromancers would put those 20 points into toughness.

Daecollo.9578:

Too Frisky.9165:

Daecollo.9578:

Too Frisky.9165:

Daecollo.9578:

I have two ideas on the table, one of them improves the numbers, and one of them improves stealing life based on condition damage.

Vampiric Precision.
At level 80, grants about 164 health per critical hit or 246 health with the trait Bloodthirst.

Vampiric
Heals for 164 HP at level 80 or 246 HP with the Bloodthirst trait.

Vampiric Rituals
At level 80, heals the player for 164 health per enemy affected (up to five targets), per pulse, per well. Unaffected by Healing Power.

(This is now effected by Bloodthirst, and heals for 246 per pulse.)

Necromancers have no Mobility, they cannot run away like other classes and healing power does not even effect most of our traits, we deserve to have good sustain. (as the class says we should.) but its stupid that we don’t have nearly the healing we deserve to have.

No offense but I’m just going to go ahead and break your suggestion here. Vampiric Precision grants 164 health per critical hit or 246 if you take Bloodthirst? I can now feasibly and safely stack a 60% critical chance while ignoring critical damage because, who needs critical damage when my ticks are going to heal me for 246 health a pop.

Now I’m going to go into combat, with my PVT build and easily put about 10 stacks of bleed on an opponent and at 60% critical chance it’s likely that 6 of my stacks will give me a critical hit and thus, provide me with 246 health per tick. That’s 1476 health a second and keep in mind it is statistically possible for all my ticks to critical and give me 2460 health a second. This isn’t including my potential extra bleed stacks and poison ticks. It’s mathematically feasible for me to heal for about 4k a second. Meanwhile, I have Well of Blood, so I can be an immobile fortress and heal for 5240 instantly while receiving extra health ticks.

The worse part about this whole example is that I didn’t even account for Healing Power, basic attack critical hits, or even slotting Superior Sigil of Blood in all my weapons.

tl;dr

Stop begging for the ability to be an undying Necromancer when you already have the potential to do so; it’s called Toughness and Vitality.

If you played a necromancer, you would know the traits are not effected by any stats.

Not everyone wishes to be a 30 point deathshroud necromancer, some of us want to be different, you have to have builds for us as well, or you kill the entire point of the class.

Life-stealing does NOT critical…

Life-stealing isn’t effected by power or healing power…

Lol…

…. It also does not trigger off dots…

Life steal doesn’t trigger off of DoTs? Then why on earth would you suggest a build focused on stealing health based on condition damage? You’ve immediately contradicted yourself. I play a Necromancer. I wasn’t referring to Life Steal anyways. You stated that getting a critical hit would grant health and DoTs can critical hit.

I have two ideas on the table, one of them improves the numbers, and one of them improves stealing life based on condition damage.

Vampiric Precision.
At level 80, grants about 164 health per critical hit or 246 health with the trait Bloodthirst.

I feel like a student correcting a professor who has no idea as to what he is talking about.

Most Condition Necromancers run “Precision, Condition Damage, Toughness” as there primary stats. (Because of getting bleeds off critical.)

Number one, I’m not sure what setting you are drawing your data from. Is this from WvW or sPvP? Based on your example you are suggesting that most Condition Necromancers prioritize Precision, stack Condition Damage, and loosely build for Toughness? No wonder people complain about not doing well.

For every 16 points of precision beyond the base of 916, you get 1% Critical Chance. Assuming you want 50% critical chance, which is really the bare minimum you would want for a critical build of any type, you would have to stack at least 800 points of Precision. However, critical hits mean nothing if critical damage is at a flat 0% so you would have to start stacking Berserker’s gems and gear in order to improve your critical damage. By the time you’ve actually satisfied this critical build you would be left with minimal Condition Damage, so your critical hits would be pathetic as it is, and your level of survivability would be next to none because you have no toughness.

You’re basing all your damage on lucky critical hits off of DoT’s? A truly skilled Condition Necromancer is going to place Condition Damage > Toughness > Precision. Why anyone would build around Barbed Precision, a minor trait, is beyond me.

I never said you said life steal triggered off DoTs. However you stated at the opening of the thread that you "have two ideas on the table, one of them improves the numbers, and one of them improves stealing life based on condition damage.

You then say that Life Stealing does not proc off of condition damage…so why even make that statement?

Actually, its 21 for 1% Critical chance until you reach about 60%, then it becomes 16.
My necromancer has 2670 Armor (Defense+Toughness.), 1350ish Condition Damage, 60% Critical Chance.

Barbed Precision is quite powerful, you best not underestimate it, especially when combined with wells and Fury, I can get 80% Critical Chance.

It “does not” trigger off dots… its kind of foolish to flame someone by copying what they say.

DO YOU READ WHAT YOU POST!?!

Too Frisky.9165:

I never said you said life steal triggered off DoTs. However you stated at the opening of the thread that you "have two ideas on the table, one of them improves the numbers, and one of them improves stealing life based on condition damage.

You then say that Life Stealing does not proc off of condition damage…so why even make that statement?

As I said.. NUMEROUS.. NUMEROUS times in this post… and i’m getting angry repeating it.

Life Stealing is like condition damage, isn’t effected by armor, or damage reduction, or anything, if I steal 35 life from the trait, it will take 35 life, it won’t be mitigation by anything. (Just like DoTs.)

Necromancers are the masters of condition damage, almost all necromancer builds revolve around the precision tree. (condition damage tree.)

So anyways, nobody was trying to suggest making life siphon mechanics try and proc off of stacks of bleeding, despite any confusing statements. In light of this, Too Frisky, do you still find Daecollo’s suggested changes too much / too little?

(I’m just worried you’re both getting far afield of your original topics.)

Life stealing is nothing like condition damage as it isn’t sustained. It’s a quickly channeled ability while condition damage continues to proc and may be constantly maintained. Why you would make the comparison is hilarious.

Life stealing BASED on condition damage would suggest that you are stealing life based on how much condition damage you are doing as if a percentage of your condition damage is converted into healing.

Softspoken.2410:

So anyways, nobody was trying to suggest making life siphon mechanics try and proc off of stacks of bleeding, despite any confusing statements. In light of this, Too Frisky, do you still find Daecollo’s suggested changes too much / too little?

(I’m just worried you’re both getting far afield of your original topics.)

Let me put it this way. He mentions gaining up to 246 health per critical hit but by his wording, suggests that life steal/gain is BASED off of condition damage. The literal interpretation suggests that simply scoring a critical hit at all will grant the Necromancer 246 health. That’s absurd.

Too Frisky.9165:

Softspoken.2410:

So anyways, nobody was trying to suggest making life siphon mechanics try and proc off of stacks of bleeding, despite any confusing statements. In light of this, Too Frisky, do you still find Daecollo’s suggested changes too much / too little?

(I’m just worried you’re both getting far afield of your original topics.)

Let me put it this way. He mentions gaining up to 246 health per critical hit but by his wording, suggests that life steal/gain is BASED off of condition damage. The literal interpretation suggests that simply scoring a critical hit at all will grant the Necromancer 246 health. That’s absurd.

Yes, quite absurd, I’d only need to get 100ish (wanting to make this easier!) critical hits to fully heal myself, I can do that in like 2 seconds tops!

Confusing for example, doesn’t tick at all unless the enemy uses an ability.

I have about 25000 Life. (24700ish, but lets just say 25000!)
Healing for 1% (250 heal.) of his life per critical is too overpowered. (currently it heals for 0.15% (37))

Hopefully back on topic…

I agree with the OP that the “Siphon Health” mechanic is far more similar to a condition than it is to anything else. As stated, it ignores armor and comes in relatively small chunks.

To make it scale off Healing Power could cause balance issues because if you can gain a significant source of damage by using a defensive stat you eliminate the sacrifice of going for defenses.

If you make it scale off of Power then you are offering armor penetrating damage to a power build as well as a significant defensive boost.

If you make the damage scale with one stat and the healing with a separate one you create a strange disconnect in the mechanic of siphoning life.

If based on condition damage it would create a unique to Necromancer attrition “condition” that could be countered by poison, blocks/blinds and stuns (the necro stops attacking).

The OP’s numbers were WAY too high though. I’ve run a Siphon Health build with Axe/Focus and Dagger/Warhorn and the number of attacks per second that you can achieve is incredible. Dagger 1, Dagger 2 and Axe 2 each hit over 3 times per second and then you get to add in Wells and Locust Swarm. If you could with MAX gear and traits achieve about 100 damage/healing per Siphon Health source you could still achieve over 800 damage and healing per second single target (3 hits Dagger1, 1 Well, 1 Locust Swarm with 2 crits and one extra Siphon from a well).

After doing the math…I realize why the Siphon Health build felt so good even at the current numbers. I would still like to trade in my Power/Crit/CritDam gear for Crit/Tough/Cond and trade big crits for bigger Siphon Health but the balancing act looks tough. Good luck A-Net!

a) Again life siphoning is direct damage, it ignores armor because it uses the blood of the victim itself (well it should but doesnt for balance reasons on dagger 2 and transfusion), thus Vitality/your hp or if it would be to snowbally Power, condition damage (Curses/Hex skills) doesnt have anything to do with healing and siphoning.
b) Life siphoning can only heal for as much as it deals damage (thus signet of locus would deal 1000~ damage at level 80 to everyone in a area, no special heal part, but instead the damage dealt being added to your hp, same for all other applications).
c) Necro damage overall is less from both from weapon sources and wells, having a capped 100 siphon pre hit doesnt seem like such a problem if the class really is about attrition. Also it is always possible to just, you know change to vampiric only siphons off non crits and vampiric precision changing that so you siphon on crits too.

Andele.1306:

a) Again life siphoning is direct damage, it ignores armor because it uses the blood of the victim itself (well it should but doesnt for balance reasons on dagger 2 and transfusion), thus Vitality/your hp or if it would be to snowbally Power, condition damage (Curses/Hex skills) doesnt have anything to do with healing and siphoning.
b) Life siphoning can only heal for as much as it deals damage (thus signet of locus would deal 1000~ damage at level 80 to everyone in a area, no special heal part, but instead the damage dealt being added to your hp, same for all other applications).
c) Necro damage overall is less from both from weapon sources and wells, having a capped 100 siphon pre hit doesnt seem like such a problem if the class really is about attrition. Also it is always possible to just, you know change to vampiric only siphons off non crits and vampiric precision changing that so you siphon on crits too.

“Uses blood of the victims..”

But blood IS condition damage. (Bleeding.)

Your saying it uses blood. (which is condition damage.) isn’t that a bit contradicting?

Just give Lifesteal a crap coefficient like Bleed has and base the damage/health return off of Healing Power. This will help keep it in check because if you stack the hell out of Healing Power to bump up Lifesteal, you had to sacrifice increasing another stat that could have helped your offense or defense.

You could even pre-nerf a little by making the Bloodthirst trait only improve the base value of the siphons.

Overkillengine.6084:

Just give Lifesteal a crap coefficient like Bleed has and base the damage/health return off of Healing Power. This will help keep it in check because if you stack the hell out of Healing Power to bump up Lifesteal, you had to sacrifice increasing another stat that could have helped your offense or defense.

You could even pre-nerf a little by making the Bloodthirst trait only improve the base value of the siphons.

That would turn “Healing Power” into an offensive stat, because the siphons you have would be much stronger.

And giving it a “crap” coefficient, doesn’t help the problem. (its far too weak.)

Daecollo.9578:

Too Frisky.9165:

Softspoken.2410:

So anyways, nobody was trying to suggest making life siphon mechanics try and proc off of stacks of bleeding, despite any confusing statements. In light of this, Too Frisky, do you still find Daecollo’s suggested changes too much / too little?

(I’m just worried you’re both getting far afield of your original topics.)

Let me put it this way. He mentions gaining up to 246 health per critical hit but by his wording, suggests that life steal/gain is BASED off of condition damage. The literal interpretation suggests that simply scoring a critical hit at all will grant the Necromancer 246 health. That’s absurd.

Yes, quite absurd, I’d only need to get 100ish (wanting to make this easier!) critical hits to fully heal myself, I can do that in like 2 seconds tops!

Confusing for example, doesn’t tick at all unless the enemy uses an ability.

I have about 25000 Life. (24700ish, but lets just say 25000!)
Healing for 1% (250 heal.) of his life per critical is too overpowered. (currently it heals for 0.15% (37))

Eh you have to be really REALLY careful with siphon traits. Right now they are somewhat weak, mainly because when you go into DS, they don’t do any healing (not sure if they proc siphon damage in DS though). But if you buff them up even slightly, then necros become really hard to deal with.

I will contend that the main weakness with any siphon based builds is that regen/siphon do nothing while in DS. Let those effects heal you through DS and it will be much better.

I won’t go into how much it irritates me that I don’t get life force while in DS from killing things even though the game makes it clear that killing things gives me life force. Reduce the effect to half, or even a quarter, but at least give us SOMETHING for killing a mob while in DS.

Bhawb.7408:

He said that Life steal should give life force as well, so every time I steal health I should also get life force. His post and my response had absolutely nothing to do with healing power.

My apologies some people say HP instead of healing power, I’m not exactly sure how I got mixed up since I understood your first use of HP.

Daecollo.9578:

And giving it a “crap” coefficient, doesn’t help the problem. (its far too weak.)

No matter what stat it scales with it would have to be a “crap” coefficient. The 5% coefficient that bleeds get would mean +50 damage at 1000 of whatever stat. +50 would put you close to (or over if affected by Bloodthirst) the 100 damage/heal per Siphon Health tick. As I showed in my previous post this would put you at a steady 500 dmg/heal per second with spikes up in the 1k range. Add in some sigils and consumables and you are kitten near unkillable.

As long as we have weapons that attack at such a high rate it will be very difficult to buff Siphon Health mechanics.

Cayl Bourne.8073:

Daecollo.9578:

And giving it a “crap” coefficient, doesn’t help the problem. (its far too weak.)

No matter what stat it scales with it would have to be a “crap” coefficient. The 5% coefficient that bleeds get would mean +50 damage at 1000 of whatever stat. +50 would put you close to (or over if affected by Bloodthirst) the 100 damage/heal per Siphon Health tick. As I showed in my previous post this would put you at a steady 500 dmg/heal per second with spikes up in the 1k range. Add in some sigils and consumables and you are kitten near unkillable.

As long as we have weapons that attack at such a high rate it will be very difficult to buff Siphon Health mechanics.

With such long cool-downs and having to channel them, and them being slow channels, it doesn’t really matter if they have a high rate or not.

Daecollo.9578:

With such long cool-downs and having to channel them, and them being slow channels, it doesn’t really matter if they have a high rate or not.

-Dagger 1 attacks over 3 times per second.
-Axe 2 is on a 6.5 or 8 second CD and attacks over 3.5 times per second.
-Dagger 2 is on a 12 second CD and attacks at 2.6 times per second with healing already built in.
-Even the widely hated for being horrendously slow Axe 1 hits at over 2.6 times per second.

Assuming a 50% crit rate and 100 Siphon Health per hit, you can multiply any of these numbers by 150 to find out how much unmitigated damage they do AND how much healing they provide.

Or how about a 20 second period where you spend 10 seconds in each weapon.
Dagger: Dagger2 x 9 + Dagger1 x 19.5 = 28.5 attacks for 4275 damage/healing
Axe: Axe2 x 16 + Axe1 x 7.33 = 23.33 attacks for 3500 damage/healing
Grand Total: 7775 damage and healing in 20 seconds.

Most #6 heal skills do less healing than this on a longer cooldown and do no damage.

Siphon Health traits have INCREDIBLE potential and I think Rennoko was on the right track by saying that if they healed us while in DS we would be on our way to a really strong attrition build.

BTW: Siphons do about 40 damage per hit/crit right now so the 20 seconds total is 3110 damage/healing. Not too shaby.

Daecollo.9578:

Andele.1306:

a) Again life siphoning is direct damage, it ignores armor because it uses the blood of the victim itself (well it should but doesnt for balance reasons on dagger 2 and transfusion), thus Vitality/your hp or if it would be to snowbally Power, condition damage (Curses/Hex skills) doesnt have anything to do with healing and siphoning.
b) Life siphoning can only heal for as much as it deals damage (thus signet of locus would deal 1000~ damage at level 80 to everyone in a area, no special heal part, but instead the damage dealt being added to your hp, same for all other applications).
c) Necro damage overall is less from both from weapon sources and wells, having a capped 100 siphon pre hit doesnt seem like such a problem if the class really is about attrition. Also it is always possible to just, you know change to vampiric only siphons off non crits and vampiric precision changing that so you siphon on crits too.

“Uses blood of the victims..”

But blood IS condition damage. (Bleeding.)

Your saying it uses blood. (which is condition damage.) isn’t that a bit contradicting?

Bleeding, being hurt thus losing blood is a condition, using the actual fluid (or life force) to rip itself out of a body causing damage to the flesh and bones is the same as hitting someone with a whip made of lightning, direct damage.

Cayl Bourne.8073:

Daecollo.9578:

With such long cool-downs and having to channel them, and them being slow channels, it doesn’t really matter if they have a high rate or not.

-Dagger 1 attacks over 3 times per second.
-Axe 2 is on a 6.5 or 8 second CD and attacks over 3.5 times per second.
-Dagger 2 is on a 12 second CD and attacks at 2.6 times per second with healing already built in.
-Even the widely hated for being horrendously slow Axe 1 hits at over 2.6 times per second.

Assuming a 50% crit rate and 100 Siphon Health per hit, you can multiply any of these numbers by 150 to find out how much unmitigated damage they do AND how much healing they provide.

Or how about a 20 second period where you spend 10 seconds in each weapon.
Dagger: Dagger2 x 9 + Dagger1 x 19.5 = 28.5 attacks for 4275 damage/healing
Axe: Axe2 x 16 + Axe1 x 7.33 = 23.33 attacks for 3500 damage/healing
Grand Total: 7775 damage and healing in 20 seconds.

Most #6 heal skills do less healing than this on a longer cooldown and do no damage.

Siphon Health traits have INCREDIBLE potential and I think Rennoko was on the right track by saying that if they healed us while in DS we would be on our way to a really strong attrition build.

BTW: Siphons do about 40 damage per hit/crit right now so the 20 seconds total is 3110 damage/healing. Not too shaby.

But by going Axe or Dagger, you cut the necromancer’s own damage by so much, it may or may not be worth it, and your not taking into account your enemys dodges/buffs as well, YES IF YOUR CONSTANTLY hitting your enemy, you will get that healing, but where in pvp/pve situation where you are just constantly hitting your enemy? NONE.

If you compare that to the elementalist spec regen boon… its 5000 healing every 20 seconds, and thats just one out of 2 of the regenerations they can recieve, on top of there healing for 2-3k when they roll, all there condition cures and there other heals, and there “6” healing ability.

Not only this, Elementalist has vigor/protection as well, which Necromancer does not, necromancers have NOTHING to help there dodges, they are punching bags with no immunity buttons, in a game where a well placed dodge can stop your entire health bar from going under.

Daecollo.9578:

But by going Axe or Dagger, you cut the necromancer’s own damage by so much, it may or may not be worth it, and your not taking into account your enemys dodges/buffs as well, YES IF YOUR CONSTANTLY hitting your enemy, you will get that healing, but where in pvp/pve situation where you are just constantly hitting your enemy? NONE.

If you compare that to the elementalist spec regen boon… its 5000 healing every 20 seconds, and thats just one out of 2 of the regenerations they can recieve, on top of there healing for 2-3k when they roll, all there condition cures and there other heals, and there “6” healing ability.

Not only this, Elementalist has vigor/protection as well, which Necromancer does not, necromancers have NOTHING to help there dodges, they are punching bags with no immunity buttons, in a game where a well placed dodge can stop your entire health bar from going under.

I never said it was a bunker build. All I did was math out a little of the potential DAMAGE and HEALING of taking 20 points in the “defensively oriented” Blood Magic tree.

Since it is only a 20 point commitment you can easily fit it into just about any build that you like. Any build with 50% crit chance will be capable of these numbers but a build with 0% crit could still put out 2/3 of that and would only have to commit 15 trait points. That is to say, Axe and Dagger do not do low damage in any build with power and do very high damage in a ’Zerker type of build.

Life Stealing does not critical…

Daecollo.9578:

Life Stealing does not critical…

Wow….

Critting produces an extra source of Siphon Health when traited for Vampiric Pecision. All my calculations were based on a 50% crit rate producing 50% more individual Siphons.

I also tend to agree that you cannot compare this to a D/D elementalist. Personally I find their water attunment heals too strong as is, and expect them to get reduced in effectiveness eventually.

I think the reason people get so hung up on these traits is because in the current “meta” game, burst is king, and by that very chain, sustained healing is garbage. Trust that eventually Anet will realize the burst damage is out of control, and “zerker” / “knight” is the norm for 80% of the players.

And you also hit the nail on the head about those 20 points. There are many crit based necro builds, and its very easy with a condition or power build to get these 20 points. If you make these traits any stronger they will be required in all those builds, whereas right now they are a mixed bag for PVP (maybe worth it maybe not).

As much as I like buffs, I don’t like redesigning traits to make them mandatory. All that does is kill build diversity. The very fact that siphon is not so good at PVP is the only reason everyone doesn’t take it.

I think people are confused. Life siphon skills have 2 components, the damage component and the heal component. They are 2 separate figures. The healing component of some life siphoning skills is affected by healing power, but it does not affect the damage component. So there is no offensive power gained from stacking healing power.

Bottomline is right now all life siphoning traits do not scale with healing power, which does not make any sense. Fix these traits (along with bloodthirst not affecting all life siphoning skills either), and then we can talk about more drastic changes if necessary.

Skyro.3108:

I think people are confused. Life siphon skills have 2 components, the damage component and the heal component. They are 2 separate figures. The healing component of some life siphoning skills is affected by healing power, but it does not affect the damage component. So there is no offensive power gained from stacking healing power.

Bottomline is right now all life siphoning traits do not scale with healing power, which does not make any sense. Fix these traits (along with bloodthirst not affecting all life siphoning skills either), and then we can talk about more drastic changes if necessary.

Not true, just like in the original game, the prime definition of life siphon (vampiric) deals 25 additional damage and then gives you 25 hp pre hit at level 80 being a single component of transfer, Signet of the Locus works the same since it heals for a base of 936 hp at level 80 pre target, despite the additional heal component being 778 because the first 158 is actual siphoning, same with wells and on crit siphons. Ironically the Dagger Life siphon isnt a actual siphon but a 2 component spell that heals upon tick check ignoring if it deals damage while the other skills if blocked dont heal for the siphon. Currently some scale of healing power, some from power and some dont scale at all past your current level (or the fractal/other level 81+ zone bloodlust bug).

Softspoken.2410:

digiowl.9620:

A heal signet thief chewing omnom will outperform a necromancer using traits…

You’re comparing a dedicated healing skill to a collection of two or three traits, one of which is a Master Minor trait. (Nourishment buffs aren’t really relevant from a class comparison perspective.)

A thief with signet still heals for just as much if not more than a necro with both lifesteal on hit and crit and 50% improvement. That’s 2 traits and a minor trait that a thief can cover with just his heal signet. Ayraswag has a lifesteal vid up on youtube that shows the power of lifesteal of thieves. Seems silly that a thief can lifesteal more efficiently than a necromancer can.

Dietzen.6127:

Softspoken.2410:

digiowl.9620:

A heal signet thief chewing omnom will outperform a necromancer using traits…

You’re comparing a dedicated healing skill to a collection of two or three traits, one of which is a Master Minor trait. (Nourishment buffs aren’t really relevant from a class comparison perspective.)

A thief with signet still heals for just as much if not more than a necro with both lifesteal on hit and crit and 50% improvement. That’s 2 traits and a minor trait that a thief can cover with just his heal signet. Ayraswag has a lifesteal vid up on youtube that shows the power of lifesteal of thieves. Seems silly that a thief can lifesteal more efficiently than a necromancer can.

Thieves are a little squishier then necromancers and there healing actually got looked at afterwords, whereas necromancers were mostly just nerfed and left alone.

Daecollo.9578:

Dietzen.6127:

Softspoken.2410:

digiowl.9620:

A heal signet thief chewing omnom will outperform a necromancer using traits…

You’re comparing a dedicated healing skill to a collection of two or three traits, one of which is a Master Minor trait. (Nourishment buffs aren’t really relevant from a class comparison perspective.)

A thief with signet still heals for just as much if not more than a necro with both lifesteal on hit and crit and 50% improvement. That’s 2 traits and a minor trait that a thief can cover with just his heal signet. Ayraswag has a lifesteal vid up on youtube that shows the power of lifesteal of thieves. Seems silly that a thief can lifesteal more efficiently than a necromancer can.

Thieves are a little squishier then necromancers and there healing actually got looked at afterwords, whereas necromancers were mostly just nerfed and left alone.

The video I was referring to has been uploaded within the last 3 days if I’m not mistaken, so unless the healing has been looked at really recently, they still heal a lot better than we do.