Life force generation
It doesn’t have to always be on AA we have heals and utilities for a reason it depends on how effective it is and the CD. In regard to scepter the last AA chain should get it,Feast of Corruption needs to let go of extra damage and give more LF instead,axe#2 needs reduce cast time and CD then the OH’ needs decent ones currently OH dagger is missing one I would recommend per condition transferred,remove regen from focus#4,reduce the CD and increase the velocity.
Robert has notes for axe and scepter changes maybe that will be included hope he doesn’t forget focus and OH dagger. Hopefully the next patch is this Tuesday.
“Revenant is actual proof that devs read the necromancer forum” – Pelopidas.2140
The Dhuumfire thread
The Dhuumfire thread
(edited by Sagat.3285)
So I’m kind of wondering. Is LF generation on auto attack a major factor in the viability of a weapon?
On one hand, having LF generation on an auto attack means that the weapon will supply a steady and reliable inflow of LF. Something a lot of the currently “less valid” weapons like the scepter and axe seem to miss a bit. Having LF generation on axe #2 is pretty nice for some burst LF, but it has quite a big impact if for some reason that attack doesn’t finish (you dodge, opponent dodges, you have to heal right away, opponent CCs you, etc etc), since these abilities generally come with cooldowns.
You absolutely need reliable LF generation in every build. Just like Mesmer can easily build clones in just about every setup, Warrior can always get adrenaline easily, Necromancer needs reliable LF. This also shouldn’t be reliant upon traits or utilities, those should be extra; your weapons alone should provide enough LF to utilize Death Shroud reasonably often.
The disparity between LF generation doesn’t stop on its own though, and this is where it is important. If I am making a Necromancer build that uses Dagger/Warhorn (we’ll just use one weapon set each), and you are making one that uses Scepter/Dagger, we start off with a massive LF generation disparity. I generate massive LF through AAs and other weapon skills, you on the other hand generate very low LF from just the 3 skill that’s it. Now what happens? If you want to just match my base LF generation, you have to spec for it, taking a different set of traits and utilities than you normally would. This isn’t done to specialize your build, it is done simply to make up for a large weakness, and one that you don’t honestly gain anything for. Now with you taking sustain-specific traits and utilities, you are passing up on damage, or condition output, or something else. If you grab Spectral Grasp to gain LF, you can no longer run Corrupt Boon/Spectral Walk/Flesh Wurm, you have to give up either a huge damage spike or a really important defensive skill. I on the other hand can pick anything including whatever LF generation you did, so at the end of the day we can make nearly the same build except for weapons, do similar damage, have similar utility, but I have far more LF generation and DS usage, making your build noticeably weaker.
This extends to other weapons. Now, I don’t mean to argue that everything needs the exact same LF generation. Dagger/Warhorn/Greatsword should generate the most LF because they will take the most damage and need the extra defense. But that is all the extra LF they should gain, they should gain just enough more than the other weapons to make up for that increased risk, but no more than that.
The TL;DR is it isn’t needed on AA, but some kind of reliable LF generation, and can’t be tied to a single easy to miss skill, and has to be from the weapon itself. Traits and utilities should exist to empower and augment your build, not make up for base deficiencies caused by a weapon that is too weak. If this isn’t the case, your weaker weapon causes you to make choices to make up for that weakness, which in turn weakens the rest of your build.
The issues of axe go beyond life force generation. It is actually decent for that bit, but basically all the weapon does is damage, and poorly at that. Then there’s Unholy Feast, which is actually a good skill, but isn’t worth the other two skills.
It’s definitely possible for weapons without LF generation on the auto to function. The main issue is that skills besides autoattacks tend to have undertuned generation. Axe #2 needs 25% LF generation. Scepter #3 needs to be increased to 8% per unique condition. This is pretty much minimum for it to really work. Here, have a bunch of math. Keep in mind all of these assume you use the skills as often as possible.
Dagger auto chain: About 2 seconds. Generates 8% LF, so 4% LF per second.
Ghastly Claws: 12% LF. 8 second cooldown, 2.25 second cast time. Assuming used as often as possible, about 10.25 seconds between each use (due to cast time). About 1.17% LF per second untraited. If traited, cooldown reduced to time between each use reduced to 6.5 seconds, time between each use reduced to 8.75 seconds. About 1.37% LF per second traited.
Scepter: 3% LF per unique condition, 10 second cooldown. Assuming 4 unique conditions, that equals about 1.2% LF per second.
Having axe and scepter increased to 20% and 8%, respectively, would make them more valuable for LF, though dagger would still have an edge over them. Here’s how they’d fare that way.
Ghastly Claws: 20% LF. 8 second cooldown, 2.25 second cast time. Assuming used as often as possible, about 10.25 seconds between each use (due to cast time). About 1.95% LF per second untraited. If traited, cooldown reduced to time between each use reduced to 6.5 seconds, time between each use reduced to 8.75 seconds. About 2.28% LF per second traited.
Scepter: 8% LF per unique condition, 10 second cooldown. Assuming 4 unique conditions, that equals 32% LF every 10 seconds, or about 3.2% LF per second.
In axes case, the lower LF per second compared to dagger is made up for with burst LF generation. Same with scepter. Admittedly this may be too high since you will be doing things besides using those skills, but they should be increased. I also suggest LF increases on OH dagger and Focus.
OH Dagger: 4% LF per condition transferred.
Focus: #4 LF increased to 4% per bounce (effectively 4% increase if all 4 bounces land).
Jesusmancer
(edited by The Wizland.8435)
Problem here is that we first need to decide for what and for where, PvP, WvW, open PvE or Dungeon. Is it Condi or power, or some kind of mix.
Why is this importent, well not all build benefit from LF (atleast not as DS is right now).
Lets take PvE (dungeons) as an ex. Power build with wells is the main playstyle, the max damage will here be to ignore DS completely and go full D/F and just AA, not very fun, granted but it works. So unless DS become worth using, then why even think about how to get LF.
Lets take another ex. Open PvE condi build, here scepter shine (well as good as condi necro can shine.. sad sad story), again this build only have 1 reason to use DS and thats as a last option “I need to run” safety net. Its lower dmg then just doing scepter rotation and dont really bring the benefits that makes it worth getting more/faster LF.
My point is mainly, I dont need LF untill there is a reason for me to go into DS and that reason is just not there atm for many builds.
Problem here is that we first need to decide for what and for where, PvP, WvW, open PvE or Dungeon. Is it Condi or power, or some kind of mix.
Why is this importent, well not all build benefit from LF (atleast not as DS is right now).
Lets take PvE (dungeons) as an ex. Power build with wells is the main playstyle, the max damage will here be to ignore DS completely and go full D/F and just AA, not very fun, granted but it works. So unless DS become worth using, then why even think about how to get LF.
Lets take another ex. Open PvE condi build, here scepter shine (well as good as condi necro can shine.. sad sad story), again this build only have 1 reason to use DS and thats as a last option “I need to run” safety net. Its lower dmg then just doing scepter rotation and dont really bring the benefits that makes it worth getting more/faster LF.
My point is mainly, I dont need LF untill there is a reason for me to go into DS and that reason is just not there atm for many builds.
This only applies to PvE it doesn’t bring the best out of the combat system. There is no reason you don’t want to use DS vs players(PvP/WvW).
“Revenant is actual proof that devs read the necromancer forum” – Pelopidas.2140
The Dhuumfire thread
The Dhuumfire thread
(edited by Sagat.3285)
This only applies to PvE it doesn’t bring the best out of the combat system. There is no reason you don’t want to use DS vs players(PvP/WvW).
This is ganerally true, yes.
But since Open PvE is the main focus for the majorite of players this is still a main consern.
To be honest I will welcome anything that makes DS more viable in open PvE and or in dungeons. And this go for both power and condi builds btw.
The TL;DR is it isn’t needed on AA, but some kind of reliable LF generation, and can’t be tied to a single easy to miss skill, and has to be from the weapon itself. Traits and utilities should exist to empower and augment your build, not make up for base deficiencies caused by a weapon that is too weak. If this isn’t the case, your weaker weapon causes you to make choices to make up for that weakness, which in turn weakens the rest of your build.
Thanks for a very extensive reply. And I totally agree with most of the things you mentioned.
The thing is (and this is one of the reasons I made this topic), is there realistically any good weapon skill that we can put it on other than auto attacks? By design there are abilities with long cooldowns, or abilities you don’t always want to use the moment they are up.
I’m fine with some disparities, especially since certain weapons have a different role to play. A dagger player is bound to take more face damage than a scepter condimancer for example, so extra LF generation is appropriate. But not to the extend where you’re trivially filling a bar in the blink of an eye, whereas the other spec has trouble filling it in a whole fight.
The issues of axe go beyond life force generation. It is actually decent for that bit, but basically all the weapon does is damage, and poorly at that. Then there’s Unholy Feast, which is actually a good skill, but isn’t worth the other two skills.
I fully realize this. And I’m not saying that ALL that is wrong with the weapons other than dagger or staff is the lack of LF generation.
But I do think it’s a major aspect. Maybe not so much on axe, as #2 is decent and it’s also often combined with warhorn or focus OH. But definitely on the Scepter and GS (the latter might be fixed now), as well as some of the offhands.
Warhorn for example generates a ton with Locust Swarm, and Focus #4 isn’t half bad either. OH dagger on the other hand has nothing at all.
Problem here is that we first need to decide for what and for where, PvP, WvW, open PvE or Dungeon. Is it Condi or power, or some kind of mix.
Why is this importent, well not all build benefit from LF (atleast not as DS is right now).
Very true. And I’m quite sure that this is taken into consideration to some point. I mean take Axe vs Dagger. Dagger generates more LF, but dagger is also point blank and often in need of that extra sustain.
The problem is that the imbalances are too large. And, especially for the more PvP oriented things, Death Shroud is sold as our “sustain”, our “active defense”, our “reason to not get more damage”, etc.
If I pick up Scepter/Dagger conditions, I have EXTREMELY little access to shroud. And that’s making builds more one dimensional as you’re pigeonholed into certain traits and utility skills.
My issue is that the difference currently are not just “noticeable”, but mind-staggering large in some cases. And it’s been picked up in the recent surge of “weapon balance suggestion” threads and I really haven’t seen my good solutions other than: ‘put LF on AA’.
The thing is (and this is one of the reasons I made this topic), is there realistically any good weapon skill that we can put it on other than auto attacks? By design there are abilities with long cooldowns, or abilities you don’t always want to use the moment they are up.
In general the answer is yes, there could be skills designed that could generate LF outside of the AA and be reliable sources of it. An example could be Mark of Blood, it has a crazy short CD (not quite 5s), is really reliable to hit, and wants to be used on CD by design, yet it doesn’t overload a skill. If staff had a comparable LF gain/second from MoB and no LF on AA, it really wouldn’t be a noticeable difference (though people would complain about the AA more, which goes to show why that AA is so lacking).
On the other hand, Ghastly Claws is a bad source of reliable LF, because it overloads a skill; while you do want to use it nearly on CD, it is your main source of burst on Axe, by loading it with all the LF generation that Axe has you end up saying to enemies “Just dodge this one skill and I both don’t deal damage AND don’t gain Death Shroud ever”. Gravedigger would be another example.
So yes, non AAs can be made to function as the source of LF generation, but they have to be low CD, high generation, reliable to land, and can’t be the main damage/utility focal point of that weapon.
So yes, non AAs can be made to function as the source of LF generation, but they have to be low CD, high generation, reliable to land, and can’t be the main damage/utility focal point of that weapon.
Agreed, and that’s also the reason Scepter 3 is bad: it has a long-ish 10" cooldown, and it tries to be both a source of LF generation AND a big-damage skill.
A bad necromancer always blames the corpse.