Guild Wars 2

Recently this issue cropped up when i was dueling in WvW and its been bugging me ever since. Noticing this discussion splitting other Necromancers in this thread i thought i would start a topic for it specifically.

I’ll start with what got me on this chain of thought, couple days ago in WvW i was doing my thing when i nuked down a Ranger. After stomping him he starts whispering me about it being a cheap shot and him wanting some 1v1s, which i agreed too.

His guild is a pretty decent small scale guild who i fight a lot in WvW when roaming and i know a lot of there members, so this 1v1 quickly turned into a long queue of people wanting to fight me.

The ranger comes back to 1v1, i kill him. He comes back on an perplex Engineer and i beat him 6/6 times. I then spend about 2 hours 1v1ing the rest of the guild members, losing only to a mace/ GS Warrior (-65%/ -98% condi’s and healing signet spec) Having opened one of there guild members streams i hear the Ranger listing off everything wrong and OP about Necros as excuses (staff 2-5 to win apparently, flesh golem is a must to win, sitting on marks, condi nuking, too much health and so on).

Now to get to the point one of the things he was moaning about was me building life-force before duels so i simply said its our class mech why wouldn’t i, I’m not going to start handicapped so he can have an advantage.

His arguments were mainly revolved around Lifeforce being built in combat and it apparently being easy to build in duels and Necromancers should duel with little to no LF (he also seemed pretty clueless on Necros as a whole as be thought LF degrades when were not in combat).

My argument was its our class mech that isn’t built solely through combat, nor does it decay when out of combat and having a pool is our only main defense as-well as access to DS skills. It’s extremely difficult to build LF in 1v1 situations were there’s not mass death or AoE’s flying around as there are very few skills that build it effectively small scale. 1v1ing a Necro with no LF would be like fighting half a class.

• TL;DR Guy cries a lot about losing tons of times to a Necro and blames LF as one of the reasons.

I’m interested to hear your thoughts on LF building for duels or what you think the general ‘unspoken’ rules of dueling are.

My views are that Lifeforce is our class mech, its our only form of damage migration outside of blinds and being something that doesn’t decay (such as adrenaline) its not a combat related mech to have.

To put it more simply, i never ask a Thief to blow his initiates or steals, i don’t ask Guardians to blow there actives on there virtues, i don’t ask Elementalists to put all there attunements on CD or tool-belts for Engineers so on and so fourth.

When i 1v1 people in duels my only ‘expectations’ is to not have anything misc, such as sigil or rank stacks. A clean duel with my class at there peak vs. there class at there peak.

Death shroud is a very important necro class-mechanic. If you aren’t traited for marks to give 3% lifeforce when triggered, it’s pretty hard to build in 1v1. When you can finally use it you are already dead.

It’s fair to have some lifeforce at start I think. It’s like a ranger fighting without pets.

I think you summed it up perfectly when you said “I’m not going to start handicapped so he can have an advantage.”

I started a similar topic a month ago
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/necromancer/Life-Force-in-WvW-duels/

People who say we should start with zero are those who don’t play necro. Other than those there seem to be 2 mentalities regarding life force in WvW:

1. Since this simulates a “real” encounter you’d have in WvW, it’s safe to assume that the necro has full life force, you definitely won’t ever encounter a necro in the middle of nowhere with 0% lf.

2. Necros should start with the amount of life force they have available at the start of an sPvP match, so 20-30% if you desummon minions.

My personal style/experience:
I almost never fill my life force completely, I start with 20% or whatever is left from the last duel. The reason: I’m impatient… I’d rather get the next duel going than running off somewhere to kill npcs.
Of course this causes me some losses that would’ve been clear wins otherwise, but that just makes dueling more exciting for me (and my opponent).

Building LF outside or in-between duels is not an issue, as you’ve pointed out it takes acouple seconds to summon and de-summon minions for 40% and it usually takes less then an min whilst golem is on recharge (I usually have to dismiss Flesh Golem between duels anyway because he stays aggro locked on the person i was dueling and bringing out a new one is the only way to fix that).

For WvW encounters your right too, I’m always 100% and there’s no two ways about it. I kill every critter in sight when roaming and ill de-summon minions if none can be found. An ‘realistic’ 1v1 encounter scenario for me (without corruption stacks, leech and kill) would be full LF.

Interested to hear other peoples thoughts!

Lifeforce ‘enables’ us to use DS skills (by entering / staying in DS). Lifeforce is also our damage soaking mechanic.

You are not gonna forego the skill usage aspect, so starting a duel with <100% lifeforce lowers your effective hp bar (which the necro is designed around) to sub 100%. That makes no sense to me on so many levels.
And that is not even going into playstyle aspects like difficulty of building lf or healing damage up again as a necro.

IMO it is the necro’s choice to start the duel with <100%, just like it’s the thief’s or guard’s choice to blow their class’ mechanics before a duel. Full lf bar should be default though, just like others starting with their class’ mechanics available.

In the end it comes down to players judgement. You make your choices and live with the consequences and apparently the guild seems to be cool with you starting at 100%, else they wouldn’t have dueled you for hours.

I always start any dual/gvg with 100% lf.
To be without any as a condi necro is just a huge disadvantage.
But good job on getting their jimmies all ruslted up by beating then.

Not sure why anyone would consider a necro starting with decent LF would be OP. It’s the class mechanic, it’d be like a ranger starting a fight with a dead pet or a thief blowing all their initiative and steal before the fight.

Sounds like these guys were just being sore losers.

duels start with 0% whenever i dueled ppl, idk.

I never purposely unfill my LF bar when I’m dueling. I don’t care if its a proper duel or when I’m just sitting at home point waiting for someone to come. In fact, I’d specifically summon Flesh Wurm over and over to kill him if I was stuck on home point for a significant period of time to slowly build it up, along with getting LF from boxes or whatever around me if possible. Along with that, I specifically make sure that unless I’m dueling a warrior, I always dagger auto (or if not dagger than staff) them to death to get my LF bar as full as possible. There is no reason a Necro should ever allow themselves to be at 0% LF after a fight unless you’re in sPvP, just respawned, and can’t build it up.

There are no two ways around it, and you said it yourself: “I’m not going to start handicapped so he can have an advantage.”

If you Duel on a SPvP duel server it is the etiquette to start and show you are at 0.In WvW its fair game.

Banjal.7328:

If you Duel on a SPvP duel server it is the etiquette to start and show you are at 0.In WvW its fair game.

I feel the point of this thread is to figure out why it’s etiquette? Also people who are dueling in wvw probably say it’s ‘etiquette’ as well I’m assuming. I feel you should start with 0% in a ‘fair, 1v1, no one kitten with us we’re dueling’ scenario no matter how well/poorly your build accumulates LF; but I also feel its ok to line of sight someone/use terrain as well as kite for extend periods to get CDs back which could potentially change a fight. I don’t spend much time in duel servers OR duel in WvW but if I was being ‘fair’ I would start with 0 LF.

Its not Spvp, it is WvW. Do you roam around without 100% Life force? I don’t.

If you are simulating a 1v1 situation where you might happen to roam into each other, then I don’t see what the problem is with filling up your DS bar. I will sometimes duel with half a bar or less… but I don’t ever duel if I don’t have at least 10%. And if it is a good player, I am always going to grab 100%.

The DS#3 alone for interupt makes 0% LF unfair fight… Its not being able to use class mechaninc. Go tell ele/mesmer to not attune/shatter for first 10 seconds or thief to not open with gap closer, ranger without pet ( opening strike or whats its called ) blalbla…………..
…….BUT 100% is A LOT for 1v1 . Heres my personal scale:

a) 0% LF …The game is spammy, and you SHOULD be able to drop a flash-fear , or for power necros DS#2 is gap closer – so why shouldnt it be allowed as a opener? Weakness / fury / retal are also damage modifiers that add up in the long run (a.k.a. from start , not 1k hp last ditch effort) …Unfair fight, got caught off-guard

b) 20% LF….U ususaly get that in spvp, it allows to use 1-2 skills, trait bonuses and mini-burst avoidance , since about half of it will still go over now. IMO min. for fair fight, a bit low, do this if ur confident

c) 50% LF ….With this i didnt find myself with too little or too much…… I have acces to my proff. skill when theyre on CD (like any other spammy Gw2 class) , i can take a big hit cz i cant vigor-dodge it , nor am I able to facetank everything + getting a 5x 3k lifeblast = 15k dmg headstart Max. for fair fight on condi, if power necro, this should be your sweet middle

d) 100% LF ……While it is a realistic/normal scenario in WvW solo roaming , I think necros are strong enough 1v1 to not need that much. Ive 100-0ed poeple with DS only.
10 seconds ~ 7x life lasts = 14-21k dmg
+ bleeds /fear / torment since that was on a hybrid spec
+after that , i still have 25k hp / 2500 armor + heal on that same hybrid without bloodlust
For super fair duel in WvW it is too much. Just tell the thief that 10min hide and seek also doesnt count

I posted this way before multiple times, just making LF generation scale with your current LF% would be optimal, over 70% LF i rarely need or want more big LF generation, but the 0-30 is a pain in the butt (especially since low LF is no longer a ok thing/usable as a small shield in trade of the damage and utility DS gives).

Do any people who play necro ever advocate for starting with 0% LF or is it all coming from the opponent? My guess is the latter and my guess is that most necros in these “formal” duels comply because we don’t want someone to minimize our win.

People who play necro know that by starting off with 0% LF you are handicapping yourself. It is bullkitten that other classes can dictate how we as necromancers duel. As multiple people have said, it is our class mechanic and a major part of our defense. Also, DS is not an “I win” button.

If we as a necro community take a hard stand against 0% LF at the start of duels, eventually permastun warriors, AI driven mesmers and unable to target thieves will get over it and duel fairly.

Also, I play a power necro so my view is somewhat skewed by that.

Day one Necro here and I think 0% LF at the start is fine.

IMO if you need full LF to win a 1v1,you should work on your build.It’s about as bad as a Mesmer popping moa morph right at the start.

Banjal.7328:

Day one Necro here and I think 0% LF at the start is fine.

IMO if you need full LF to win a 1v1,you should work on your build.It’s about as bad as a Mesmer popping moa morph right at the start.

I think it is great that you have been playing necro for a while and know the class well enough to do well in duels starting with 0% LF. I also think that you have to take others who play the class into account.

I am not that good, but have been playing necro for a while and can sometimes do okay with 0%. There are other people who are just starting to play necro and will get absolutely crushed. We can argue that over time, they will learn to play better, especially if they start off playing with 0% LF but that is not the point. The point is that having 0% LF at the start of the duel is a handicap for the necro but that having some percentage of LF at the beginning does not give an unfair advantage to the necro.

Also, it is nothing like a mesmer popping Moa Morph at the beginning of a duel. Moa Morph basically makes the opponent a sitting duck for 10 seconds. Having some low percentage of life force might make for mitigation of one attack or a tainted shackles + fear or a couple life blasts.

Banjal.7328:

Day one Necro here and I think 0% LF at the start is fine.

Imo it is not fine at all, and there are two reasons for that:

1. Our regular healing is pathetic considering how much health we have. A standard necro build will heal with Consume Conditions for somewhere between 6-7k hp… every 25 seconds. Let’s be generous here and assume we’ll sprinkle some regeneration on top of that and average 8k/25sec, that is somewhere between 30-40% of a necro’s total health.
The point is, you can’t recover from big hits to your regular health pool. You have to anticipate bursts and soak them up with life force. If you start with 0% and your opponent opens with a 5k hit… that is 1 main heal right there, gone for the rest of the fight.
Imo our healing could be stronger anyway, but it is balanced around the fact that we can protect our regular hp with a faster regenerating second hp bar.

2. If you really had to start without life force, you’d be very limited in how you can open a fight. Every necro would struggle for life force in the beginning. They would all have to stick to certain skills that generate it, most of which need to hit the enemy so not only would it be limiting our initial use of skills but become very predictable for the opponent. If they know what generates life force they could try to avoid those skills in particular and dry us out before the fight has even started.
Some builds do of course generate lf better than others, but this is another issue: you’d limit build diversity. For example all condi necros who pick Spectral Attunement with Grasp, Wall and Armor would have a clear advantage over those who don’t.

So again, imo at least 20% for every fight, but above that it totally depends on the opponent.

duels are about improving yourself, starting with 0% life force forces you to actually realize how to gain life force and apply that to real combat situations. too many people take the kitten/duel thing too seriously. personally i find duels a great way to learn your own class, and the opponents class. plus starting at 0% makes me feel more accomplished i guess when beating people, although beating people on necro is as easy as throwing your keyboard at a wall ever since that june patch (excluding warriors, spvp pov) :p

Oblivion.8307:

starting with 0% life force forces you to actually realize how to gain life force and apply that to real combat situations.

You need to know how to regenerate life force even when you start with more than 0%. And there’s really not much to learn other than “press button of the skill that gives lf..”

i guess, spvp is 0% anyways, i’m unsure of wvw etiquette.

Anets view of the Necro essentially is an attrition class(getting stronger over time, as the battle progresses) through the use/manipulation of conditions. I don’t see how that doesn’t apply to death shroud? When you log on to your necro it starts with 0 LF. As the battle progresses and your conditions stacks get to ticking your minions are bashin away you land hits that suck life force from your opponent(s) then you’re able to go in to this form that (isn’t by itself op but with your 14 other skills should be enough as has its own skill set complete with its own HP bar) is hopefully able to keep the battle in your favor or go down swinging. The fear and the AoE immobilize are instant cast, and as above poster mentioned all the effects that can happen going in to DS(when traited ofcourse (retal, fury, AoE weakness&bleeding, AoE3stack vuln)). So with just 10% LF and ONE CLICK you can inflict conditions and get a guaranteed fear and maybe even the immobilize before that 10% gets ate up.

I feel it’s like a mesmer starting with all of its clones, or a warrior with full adrenaline… if we’re gonna try to compare classes lol.

It’s an unsolvable issue because Anet has no idea what they are balancing Necro around. And a mechanic like this really can’t be balanced when sometimes you start a fight with zero and other times have a whole second life bar.

Dueling is kind of a joke in this game anyway because the classes are not balanced with any intent at 1v1 balance. At least 2 to 3 professions or at least builds within, are always OP at any one time.

I love to fight people 1v1 just out in WvW, because the randomness of it is part of the charm and challenge. They might have more buffs, less buffs, better gear, worse gear, bloodlust advantage, etc, that is all part of it.

But in dueling people expect to create a fair setting which can’t be done, because the game wasn’t built or balanced to bring that about. And the LF question is one of those reasons why.

Reasonably you should be trying to mimic a real organic game situation though, and in WvW the real game situation is most Necro’s will have full LF if you run into them in the field. Only if you engage one right out of another fight, might they be low.

In sPVP you start with none as per the game mode, and have little time to pre-generate it, so your first fight vs a Necro he is not likely to have much or any to start, which makes more sense for sPVP players to duel without it.

SweetCream.8051:

I feel it’s like a mesmer starting with all of its clones, or a warrior with full adrenaline… if we’re gonna try to compare classes lol.

Difference is, they can use utility skills to do that for free, we can get the inditial ds running, but not in such a reliable way as they can. But that aint the problem, the real problems with DS is a) Flat LF generation b) CC/self drain of DS c) No healing in it/from it.

Pendragon.8735:

It’s an unsolvable issue because Anet has no idea what they are balancing Necro around. And a mechanic like this really can’t be balanced when sometimes you start a fight with zero and other times have a whole second life bar.

Dueling is kind of a joke in this game anyway because the classes are not balanced with any intent at 1v1 balance. At least 2 to 3 professions or at least builds within, are always OP at any one time.

I love to fight people 1v1 just out in WvW, because the randomness of it is part of the charm and challenge. They might have more buffs, less buffs, better gear, worse gear, bloodlust advantage, etc, that is all part of it.

But in dueling people expect to create a fair setting which can’t be done, because the game wasn’t built or balanced to bring that about. And the LF question is one of those reasons why.

Reasonably you should be trying to mimic a real organic game situation though, and in WvW the real game situation is most Necro’s will have full LF if you run into them in the field. Only if you engage one right out of another fight, might they be low.

In sPVP you start with none as per the game mode, and have little time to pre-generate it, so your first fight vs a Necro he is not likely to have much or any to start, which makes more sense for sPVP players to duel without it.

/thread
/applaude
/salute

SweetCream.8051:

When you log on to your necro it starts with 0 LF.

Unless your talking about the very start of the game, LF remains what it was when you log out and never degens.

The only time it ever decreases is when you equip or unequip items that boost health (which in-itself shows its more a stat/ static bonus mech then say a combat-only related such as adrenaline that degens when not in combat).

Pendragon.8735:

Reasonably you should be trying to mimic a real organic game situation though, and in WvW the real game situation is most Necro’s will have full LF if you run into them in the field.

I think you summed up my thought process perfectly with this part.

SweetCream.8051:

I feel it’s like a mesmer starting with all of its clones, or a warrior with full adrenaline… if we’re gonna try to compare classes lol.

Except before healing signet was buffed popping healing surge to fill your adrenaline was standard operating procedure for warriors, with the idea being that by the time it came off cool down you’d still be alive with your high hp and armor.

Ascii.9726:

SweetCream.8051:

When you log on to your necro it starts with 0 LF.

Unless your talking about the very start of the game, LF remains what it was when you log out and never degens.

The only time it ever decreases is when you equip or unequip items that boost health (which in-itself shows its more a stat/ static bonus mech then say a combat-only related such as adrenaline that degens when not in combat).

You also lose some when you waypoint to a new zone (say, Lion’s Arch from Cursed Shore). A bit of an annoyance that is probably a bug.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

You also lose some when you waypoint to a new zone (say, Lion’s Arch from Cursed Shore). A bit of an annoyance that is probably a bug.

I think that’s down to vitality on armors were it ‘re-equips’ stuff (like when you weapon swap to a set with vitality and then swap back and it drops abit) and also the WvW max health buff, either that or a bug.

Simplest way to test is just strip down naked in sPvP lobby and log out and in/ move between games/ areas, it stays the same.

I will say Symbolic brought up one good point, and that was if you’re dueling simply for the sake of trying to get better (and not just to win) then I see a valid argument for starting with 0% LF as a kind of “handicap”, and also to learn how to make LF quickly.

However, I’d say if you’re taking it seriously and your goal is to win, there is no reason you shouldn’t be at 100%.

Pendragon.8735:

But in dueling people expect to create a fair setting which can’t be done, because the game wasn’t built or balanced to bring that about. And the LF question is one of those reasons why.

Reasonably you should be trying to mimic a real organic game situation though, and in WvW the real game situation is most Necro’s will have full LF if you run into them in the field. Only if you engage one right out of another fight, might they be low.

In sPVP you start with none as per the game mode, and have little time to pre-generate it, so your first fight vs a Necro he is not likely to have much or any to start, which makes more sense for sPVP players to duel without it.

I tend to disagree with that part of your post, especially “Reasonably you should be trying to mimic a real organic game situation […]”.
From my experience, arranged duels at mill are primarily meant to be fair. At least the people I fight usually agree to fight without sigil / guard stacks etc. Which is kind the opposite of “I use everything I would use in a real WvW encounter”.
Also, the fact that you start when you’re both ready (no one starting a fight vs. an unaware opponent) and the area alone make it very different from a real organic game situation. So it doesn’t make much sense to try to mimic one in a duel in my opinion. If I want to practise random encounters with all their randomness and imbalance I just go out and roam.
My approach to every duel is making it as fair as possible.

The inherent problem of Necro and Warrior in 1on1 is that their class mechanics include carrying over “resources” gained from a previous encounter to the next one while bringing benefits gained previously and outside of the duel is usually a no-go (see comment about stacks above).

In my opinion, neither War nor Necro are designed to go toe-to-toe with a single enemy with 0% adr./LF. However, they are probably also not meant to start with 100%. So 0% is a handicap, 100% is most certainly a rather big advantage. Somewhere inbetween is the sweet spot to start a fair duel. The best would probably be to make multiple duels with different percentages of adrenaline/LF started. This and/or communicate with your opponent, decide how much adrenaline/LF is allowed etc.

Oblivion.8307:

too many people take the kitten/duel thing too seriously.

+1

Arbitrary rules made up by players. Playing to win is fun of course nobody likes to lose but I saw somebody make a claim something should be nerfed because it wasn’t allowed on dueling server rolf. Not saying that is what the OP thinks but agree with symbolic 100%.

oZii.2864:

Oblivion.8307:

too many people take the kitten/duel thing too seriously.

+1

Arbitrary rules made up by players. Playing to win is fun of course nobody likes to lose but I saw somebody make a claim something should be nerfed because it wasn’t allowed on dueling server rolf. Not saying that is what the OP thinks but agree with symbolic 100%.

Yeah at the end of the day, people will always make up excuses when they lose. If the necro OP had LOST the duel, his challenger wouldn’t have bothered to say anything about the life force %.

I often don’t use my ultimate in a duel, especially if I feel like I have outmatched the guy I am dueling heavily. Sometimes I leave epidemic on my bar, even though it has no use in a 1v1. Duels are suppose to be fun, and give people a chance to try their rock against your paper, or visa versa.

Overly serious people ruin what is suppose to be for fun.

Haha, I hope nobody took what I said as being super serious about duels. I actually do not duel that often and rarely pay attention to my LF pool before I do. I do agree with Symbolic as many others here have that many people duel in order to get better and starting with 0% LF can help to accomplish that goal.

Additionally, however, it is somewhat limiting. I am not saying I would use this strategy, but lets say a power necro wants to open by dark path → dagger 3 (start cast while dark path is traveling) → dual wells → dagger auto. How will they know if this is an effective opening strategy if they have to build LF first? I know that there are ways around this (e.g. sac a minon) but that is still time you wasted with your opener.

Another example would be starting the fight off in DS. I can’t say I have ever tried this but let’s say someone wants to try a build where they are using DS as offensively as possible for initial burst and want to get as many attacks off in DS before the LF pool is drained by the opponent’s attacks. Or someone who’s build relies on flashing DS at the start of a fight for fury, retal, weakness and bleed, etc.

So, I definitely agree that you learn certain things about the class and certain techniques when starting with 0% LF but you also limit yourself from others. Whether these others are good or not, how will you know unless you use them? Additionally, in the spirit of duels helping people improve, how will you help the person you are dueling with improve if they do not know how to handle someone who starts a fight with some degree of LF?

Not trying to be argumentative but just thinking of all the options

You can tell the ranger to not use his pet until you fill your ds, or something like that, and hear his excuses about it.

Morbridae.8607:

You can tell the ranger to not use his pet until you fill your ds, or something like that, and hear his excuses about it.

Better comparison is disable warrior from building adrenaline and mesmers unable to use clones for shattering.

Well, full life force vs 1 other is kinda strong. (Excluding vs a CC or high burst person)
Problem is, it’s our only real defense excluding some chills/fear little bit of blind.
It falls flat vs 2+ or 1shot mechanics. (Which happen lots more in this game than 1v1 duels)
So it’s set up to make others unhappy, and us.

Same sort of deal with CC stops all of our defense, having no escape/mobility, but letting us overload condi clean cap if were not delt with first. Un-fun for others who clean, un-fun for us who’s CC’ed and focused first as the best counter strat.

Bweaty.9187:

Well, full life force vs 1 other is kinda strong.

Its strong if you got the current Sarmor/15SR trait.