Guild Wars 2

Anet ples add a damaging condition to the auto attack on main hand dagger. Doesn’t matter if it’s bleeding, torment or poison.

It would open up more options.

I actually agree.
As a power build it wouldn’t really affect the dagger’s viability, but it opens up the option to use it as a condi weapon.
A autoattack chain something like:

3s torment
3s torment
x2 4s torment

would be nice, it is a melee weapon so it should not be too weak.

Not to mention that power is weak right now – giving it a bit more damage that way wouldn’t exactly hurt the game.

I usually dont like that solution much as it further softens the identity of the weapon, but yeah, condi and maybe a small life siphon on the chain would be cool for scourge, and a buff for core necro. I mean, a reaper wont pick dagger, he has a meele shroud and a greatsword that is superior. It would only really benefit base necro.

Dagger
What condi spec need: damaging condition application and life force generation.
Suggestion: reduce AA aftercast (more attack = more crits = more bleeding) and empowering Life Siphon to torment foes at each pulse while the caster its afflicted by bleeding.

Zefiris.8297:

Not to mention that power is weak right now – giving it a bit more damage that way wouldn’t exactly hurt the game.

If power is weak … how would adding conditions to dagger fix that. It’s a completely different set of stats than a power build.

I would actually prefer a boost to the core dagger damage, not a condition … of if it got a condition, a support one, not a damage one. We already have mad awesome condition weapons. Condition dagger would just be … meh.

Obtena.7952:

Zefiris.8297:

Not to mention that power is weak right now – giving it a bit more damage that way wouldn’t exactly hurt the game.

If power is weak … how would adding conditions to dagger fix that.

The suggestion is not to improve power builds. I was talking about its possible side effects. Check the topic.

I get the topic. If the topic isn’t to improve power builds and power is weak right now, and conditions is strong … so you want to add conditions to one of the best power weapons? Um, OK. So you end up with a mediocre power weapon with a crap condition attached to it … GG>

The suggestion is so there is an actual alternative condi mainhand weapon. We currently have scepter, which is meh, and staff, which is complete garbage. And don’t even mention Axe.
Our lack of reasonable weapon choice for condi is quite sad.

Power being fixed is independent of this, but a condition power wouldn’t care for being on dagger wouldn’t be a balance problem once power is fixed.

Scepter is a meh condition weapon? Wow. Not sure what game you are playing. The whole idea there is a need for a condi alternative doesn’t make sense, especially if you can’t make a great condition build with one of the best condition classes and it’s condition weapon in the game. /shrug

The idea we need a second condition weapon when the first one is already sufficient to make a really good condition build, while power builds lag behind doesn’t really make sense to me, especially if that second condition weapon is one of the better weapons to make power builds. ???

Glad to see I’m not the only one that thinks this. Given that torment is pretty much the main Scourge condition (though burning contributes a large amount too), it would be the best suited condi for Dagger Mh.

Why everyone is talking about dagger AA? Look at Dagger #3 it’s 25s CD and converts 2 boons (single target). Back then when Axe converts 1 boon, it’s understandable for its 25s CD. Now, Axe does AOE 2 boons conversion on 12s CD. Dagger #3’s CD should be lower to 15s …

Lahmia.2193:

Glad to see I’m not the only one that thinks this. Given that torment is pretty much the main Scourge condition (though burning contributes a large amount too), it would be the best suited condi for Dagger Mh.

I disagree mh dagger is tied to bloodmagic and as as such bleed is a more suitable condition for our dagger thematically atleast.

geekilo.8512:

Why everyone is talking about dagger AA? Look at Dagger #3 it’s 25s CD and converts 2 boons (single target). Back then when Axe converts 1 boon, it’s understandable for its 25s CD. Now, Axe does AOE 2 boons conversion on 12s CD. Dagger #3’s CD should be lower to 15s …

That because dagger 3 also has immob (which when used at the right time is really strong). A shorter casttime would help dagger 3 more then a shorter cooldown.

geekilo.8512:

Why everyone is talking about dagger AA? Look at Dagger #3 it’s 25s CD and converts 2 boons (single target). Back then when Axe converts 1 boon, it’s understandable for its 25s CD. Now, Axe does AOE 2 boons conversion on 12s CD. Dagger #3’s CD should be lower to 15s …

Because Scourge is starved for life force in condition builds and dagger AA is the best method of getting it. The problem is, it sucks for actual condi damage.

Obtena.7952:

The idea we need a second condition weapon when the first one is already sufficient to make a really good condition build, while power builds lag behind doesn’t really make sense to me

With Scourge we lose the option of using GS for chill spinning, nightfall to procc blind into chill and grasping darkness for more chill into bleeds. It’s a noticeable gap that assuming nothing is done, Scepter/Dagger + Scepter/Torch will not be able to fill adequately. Add to that the fact that the mentioned sets have pretty awful LF generation so you will not be able to spam Shades/Shade skills as often to try and make up the loss of GS and deathly chill. I think if dagger got a damaging condition on auto we would have something rotate to after having done scepter rotations and we can refill life force and use more shade skills until its time for scepter again.

I think the devs themselves have been considering this change for some time but have yet to take the final step. Maybe they will want to see how Scourge performs in content like raids before making a decision. But I think it’s needed and it would fit very well with what we’re getting with Scourge.

That’s not a gap, that’s a build choice. The idea of especs is that you get to choose flavour, not evolve into increasingly better and more powerful builds. Making an espec ‘fill a gap’ simply renders choices irrelevant.

I disagree tho.

disagree but why they cant give us a free wep .. we really need it we got staff scepter dagger and axe not including off hand we need a condi mele wep =[

Muchacho.2390:

Lahmia.2193:

Glad to see I’m not the only one that thinks this. Given that torment is pretty much the main Scourge condition (though burning contributes a large amount too), it would be the best suited condi for Dagger Mh.

I disagree mh dagger is tied to bloodmagic and as as such bleed is a more suitable condition for our dagger thematically atleast.

In that sense, yes you are right. But would you rather theme over usability? We have sceptre as our bleed ranged weapon.

Aktium.9506:

I disagree tho.

Clearly. The difference is that my opinion is based on how the game is intended to work; we can freely swap between a weapon that is optimized for condition damage and life force regen . Your’s is just based off of your desire to be given everything in one weapon.

Yeah i think they HAVE to do this. or else Scourge is gonna fall flat on its face in pve. Currently mh dagger is in a weird state. Compeating against both greatsword and axe. And this makes Balancing of power Reaper really hard to do.. I think they might have alrdy been moving into the direction of making it a condi mh weapon. why else would they keep buffing axe and greatsword. Yet completely ignore dagger exept putting self harming condis on the 3 skill. Which got Great syngery with Condi necro. Crossing fingers

Obtena.7952:

Aktium.9506:

I disagree tho.

Clearly. The difference is that my opinion is based on how the game is intended to work; we can freely swap between a weapon that is optimized for condition damage and life force regen . Your’s is just based off of your desire to be given everything in one weapon.

Hm, I’d say your opinion is based on a lack of foresight and comprehension of how the game actually does work. Falsely trying to impose your delusional fantasies on why I think dagger getting a damage condi is a good idea won’t change that. Having an option for a melee condi weapon would not invalidate the existence of scepter. You almost seem to think it would. But the reality is that scepter alone as the only option for a condi weapon is not enough. It will not be enough.

And the easiest way to remedy this is to change an existing weapon. And what better candidate than dagger mainhand? Would it be strong to have a weapon like dagger inflict conditions while also building life force? Yes of course it would be, but it’s an established concept in GW2 where melee weapons in general have a bigger pay-off than ranged weapons due to the simple requirement of melee weapons having to be in melee range to do their thing.

Anyway, I can respect your opinion. Even if it is ignorant.

I would love condi on dagger AA for Scourge.

better yet, add condis to Quickening Thirst. There is little to no reason to ever pick this trait no matter how many daggers you wield. Something like.

“Increases movement speed while wielding a dagger. Dagger skills recharge faster and apply bleeding if activated while above the health threshold.” Done.

Bleeding is a better option. C’mon! It’s a dagger, daggers make people bleed, right?

Lahmia.2193:

Muchacho.2390:

Lahmia.2193:

Glad to see I’m not the only one that thinks this. Given that torment is pretty much the main Scourge condition (though burning contributes a large amount too), it would be the best suited condi for Dagger Mh.

I disagree mh dagger is tied to bloodmagic and as as such bleed is a more suitable condition for our dagger thematically atleast.

In that sense, yes you are right. But would you rather theme over usability? We have sceptre as our bleed ranged weapon.

Personally i dont care but i am certain Anet cares about it. Hence why i think bleed is the only possible canditate for a damage condition on dagger.

Giving the attack speed of dagger auto, torment is just way to strong of a condition to put on it in any PvP scenario and don’t even get me started on the ridiculousness that Demonic Lore would become. Plus, bleed just fits it a lot better thematically.

What about Dagger #1 transfering condictions, like underwater shroud? Maybe in the third attack..
Would make Dagger more condi oriented, and synergize with Dagger #3 and corruptions in general.

Don’t see this happening because it would cause more power creep. Power scourge is already super strong in a spvp environment solely because axe and dagger build so much life force so quickly even though scourges traitline really doesn’t have anything appealing to a power based build.

People realize that scourge unlike base necro and reaper are outright craving life force and condi simply doesn’t generate it as quickly as power weps do, been that way for a while doubt it will change especially considering how scourge is mostly likely going to beat reaper in condi damage.

Faster life force gain for condi would pretty much equal more dumhnfire procs all without the need for utility skills that specialize in giving lifeforce.

Aktium.9506:

Obtena.7952:

Aktium.9506:

I disagree tho.

Clearly. The difference is that my opinion is based on how the game is intended to work; we can freely swap between a weapon that is optimized for condition damage and life force regen . Your’s is just based off of your desire to be given everything in one weapon.

Hm, I’d say your opinion is based on a lack of foresight and comprehension of how the game actually does work.

Really? So my understanding that you can swap weapons in the game to get the advantages of either one is a lack of comprehension and foresight? Like it wasn’t intended to work that way or shouldn’t in the future … as a meaningful game mechanic? Seems you have some explaining to do there if you want to be taken seriously, considering that’s exactly how the game has worked for the last 5 years.

It’s funny that somehow the emergence of Scourge is making people call for a new melee condi weapon … almost like the last 5 years where life force was JUST as relevant to condi-build necro’s didn’t even exist!!! This trick isn’t going to work … it’s a clear case of asking for significant power creep at the expense of removing meaningful choices. Espec is not an evolution of power, it’s an alternate playstyle in a class.

Obtena.7952:

Aktium.9506:

Obtena.7952:

Aktium.9506:

I disagree tho.

Clearly. The difference is that my opinion is based on how the game is intended to work; we can freely swap between a weapon that is optimized for condition damage and life force regen . Your’s is just based off of your desire to be given everything in one weapon.

Hm, I’d say your opinion is based on a lack of foresight and comprehension of how the game actually does work.

Really? So my understanding that you can swap weapons in the game to get the advantages of either one is a lack of comprehension and foresight? Like it wasn’t intended to work that way? That’s an interesting point of view given that’s exactly how the game has worked for the last 5 years … perhaps you want to explain yourself.

It’s funny that somehow the emergence of Scourge is making people call for a new melee condi weapon … almost like the last 5 years where life force was JUST as relevant to condi-build necro’s didn’t even exist!!! This trick isn’t going to work … it’s a clear case of asking for significant power creep at the expense of removing meaningful choices. Espec is not an evolution of power, it’s an alternate playstyle in a class.

The thing is with core necro condi build’s had the same problem building up lifeforce, but they didnt need it that much as the core necro skills suck for a condi build. It was mostly there to soak up damage and for the instant fear, of course you use the other skills too, but just because its better to use skills than to do nothing.

And yeah, we have the option to use a weapon with better life force gain, but why should this be an option? Does the warrior have a weapon that generates no or much much less adrenalin? Does the mesmer have a weapon without clones or phantasms?

The scourge plays different compared to the base necro, and base necro already has a very limited weapon choice, its basicly always Staff and X, and staff only because we don’t have a second weapon for the intended playstyle and staff is just in the middle of everything.

Limiting the weapon section further by this horribly lifeforce gain on skills is just deadly in terms of build variety.

Obtena.7952:

almost like the last 5 years where life force was JUST as relevant to condi-build necro’s didn’t even exist!!!

You prove my point, lad. Life force generation was never a problem for the early Viper Horror build nor the later Condi GS build in raids. The former making little use of shroud in general and the latter using shroud only at short intervals on top of having GS which has decent LF generation on the auto and from Death Spiral.

In PvP every single relevant build the past few years uses staff, warhorn, Soul Marks and Spectral Armor. Those things obviously have no place in raids.

And Scourge undoubtedly consumes life force at a much more rapid pace than Reaper with less means of generating it. This will become a problem.

If the problem is that Scourge consumes LF at a much higher rate, the solution isn’t a weapon that gives more LF .. that’s nonsense. So you make a weapon that’s sufficient to gain LF on Scourge … then is OP for life force gain on not-Scourge? I don’t think you have thought this through very well, Lad. Besides … nothing has prevented you at all from using a weapon that gives you good LF gain on Scourge.

So we are back to the relevance of making choices, which you seem to continually ignore … and of course my complete lack of comprehension that making these choices has been available through weapon swapping for 5 years now … and will continue to be in the future.

Brujeria.7536:

Limiting the weapon section further by this horribly lifeforce gain on skills is just deadly in terms of build variety.

Is it? It’s a fact that weapon swapping addresses these kinds of problems for the last 5 years in the game; I have no reason to believe all of the sudden, that mechanic will stop working on one espec.

Obtena.7952:

If the problem is that Scourge consumes LF at a much higher rate, the solution isn’t a weapon that gives more LF .. that’s nonsense. So you make a weapon that’s sufficient to gain LF on Scourge … then is OP for life force gain on not-Scourge? I don’t think you have thought this through very well, Lad. Besides … nothing has prevented you at all from using a weapon that gives you good LF gain on Scourge.

So we are back to the relevance of making choices, which you seem to continually ignore … and of course my complete lack of comprehension that making these choices has been available through weapon swapping for 5 years now … and will continue to be in the future.

Brujeria.7536:

Limiting the weapon section further by this horribly lifeforce gain on skills is just deadly in terms of build variety.

Is it? It’s a fact that weapon swapping addresses these kinds of problems for the last 5 years in the game; I have no reason to believe all of the sudden, that mechanic will stop working on one espec.

It really isn’t, though. Condi Reaper doesn’t stay in Shroud for long, so the current levels of life force gain are sufficient to keep you topped off. Adding more life force gain won’t change that because you’re already full life force.

Condi Necro has the same situation: you don’t want to use Shroud for even a millisecond more than you have to to survive because it kills your pressure. Current levels of life force gain are adequate (and why wouldn’t you want core condi Necro to have a buff? It’s downright terrible.)

Scourge, however, is constantly demanding life force, and current options just aren’t enough without brutally murdering your DPS, as you’re built for condition damage and not Power.

That makes no sense … so when you are in shroud, it’s not a constant demand on your LF? It sure is!!!

If anything , Scourge is broken in that sense … I can regain LF AND use those my skills require it; not an option in shroud. That’s why I think the current LF gains with the current weapons on scourge are balanced

Besides … since when was anyone prevented from using a good LF gain weapon on Scourge if they want to spam shades? I didn’t see that mechanic when I tested it … #choices. This isn’t a discussion about LF gain on Scourge … it’s a discussion about the blatant request for power creep to get spamming shade ability with highly effective condition damage not just on one build (which you can already do), but on one WEAPON. That’s unreasonable IMO.

Obtena.7952:

That makes no sense … so when you are in shroud, it’s not a constant demand on your LF? It sure is!!!

If anything Scourge is broken in that sense … I can regain LF AND use those my skills that require it; not an option in shroud. That’s why the current LF gains with scourge are balanced with shroud IMO.

Besides … since when was anyone prevented from using a good LF gain weapon on Scourge if they want to spam shades? I didn’t see that mechanic when I tested it … #choices.

Condition builds don’t spend much time in Shroud, so they can refill fully anyway in between uses. I don’t see why this is such a hard concept for you to grasp.

If you use a good life force gain weapon, your damage drops by a crapton. We’re talking 25-40% drop in damage here. It’s not really a choice when you’re locked into a low damage mode just to use your abilities that you need to deal damage.

I don’t see a problem with that at all; many if not all classes have had to make those kinds of tradeoffs when making a build and gearing up for 5 years now; why is Scourge different? Because you want to be able to spam shades, have access to high condition damage while maintaining access to yet another weapon on top of that? Is there any deficiency you are willing to accept on your Scourge?

Obtena.7952:

How much damage this deals is not relevant. The reason for espec is not power creep. Since Anet isn’t making Scourge because of competitve PVE, then that argument is irrelevant as well.

/topic

Other classes are locked into low damage modes to deal damage? Pretty sure that has never been the case.

Deficiencies in Scourge? There are craptons! Pathetic mobility, no attack negation mechanics (which all other classes have in spades), no Stability, and the damage can largely be avoided by moving 5 feet to the side.

Literally the least they can do is have the condition pressure that they are intended to have.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Other classes are locked into low damage modes to deal damage? Pretty sure that has never been the case.

Deficiencies in Scourge? There are craptons! Pathetic mobility, no attack negation mechanics (which all other classes have in spades), no Stability, and the damage can largely be avoided by moving 5 feet to the side.

Literally the least they can do is have the condition pressure that they are intended to have.

Really? You’re going to tell me that without this new high LF gen, condition damage melee weapon, Scourge is low damage mode? Let me introduce you to a thing called daggers … #choice … it’s hard.

Yes, mainhand dagger exists. And it deals no damage in condition builds.

Congrats on discovering the point of this thread.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Yes, mainhand dagger exists. And it deals no damage in condition builds.

Congrats on discovering the point of this thread.

Scourge isn’t limited to condition builds if you want to spam shades to get high damage. #choices…

The first thing I found playing shades … the spammable wells I always wanted for my daggers .. and they stack with wells. We are so hard done by ><

Obtena.7952:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Yes, mainhand dagger exists. And it deals no damage in condition builds.

Congrats on discovering the point of this thread.

Scourge isn’t limited to condition builds if you want to spam shades to get high damage. #choices The first thing I found playing shades … the spammable wells I always wanted for my daggers.

If you’re playing Power, then the shades aren’t doing much damage. You either get to use the F2-F5 a lot, or you actually get to have an impact when using them.

Doesn’t this seem problematic?

That statement doesn’t mean much to me “not doing much damage” … the relevant comparison is how much damage you can do, not how much shades do. Doing more damage than not having them … while being able to continuously gain LF as well .. that’s not a problem IMO; that’s the tradeoff you get choosing Scourge over not Scourge. If you don’t like that tradeoff, you have two other options you can still choose from. Thank Anet for #choice.

I mean, dagger is already a high damage choice on necro to begin with … so it seems to me that even if shades aren’t doing much damage on their own, it’s still adding to a high damage build anyways. I’m willing to bet Scourge is the new DPS build on Necros … condition or not. Reaper wasn’t THAT much higher than core Necro.

No, I don’t see a problem with any of this …

On Power, it’s high damage. On condition, it’s crap.

Low life force gain on condition weapons means you can EITHER A. have the shades actually do anything or B. be able to use the shades. You can’t do both right now. Net result is that you have 5 skills that effectively don’t do anything, because they either can’t be used or they only make up for what you’re trading off to use them in the first place.

If you swap to dagger, then you can use the shades, but at that point, all they’re doing is making up for the damage loss by swapping to dagger. You’re not getting anything out of them.

And yes, Reaper IS that much higher than core Necro. Deathly Chill puts out at least a third of Condi Reaper’s damage output, probably more.

Nobody is asking for Dagger to become a pure condi weapon, or even outpace Scepter in that regard. They’re just asking for a bit of damaging conditions on mainhand dagger to lessen the tradeoff and honestly buff an underpowered weapon.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

On Power, it’s high damage. On condition, it’s crap.

Low life force gain on condition weapons means you can EITHER A. have the shades actually do anything or B. be able to use the shades. You can’t do both right now. Net result is that you have 5 skills that effectively don’t do anything, because they either can’t be used or they only make up for what you’re trading off to use them in the first place.

If you swap to dagger, then you can use the shades, but at that point, all they’re doing is making up for the damage loss by swapping to dagger. You’re not getting anything out of them.

And yes, Reaper IS that much higher than core Necro. Deathly Chill puts out at least a third of Condi Reaper’s damage output, probably more.

Nobody is asking for Dagger to become a pure condi weapon, or even outpace Scepter in that regard. They’re just asking for a bit of damaging conditions on mainhand dagger to lessen the tradeoff and honestly buff an underpowered weapon.

This.

I’m starting to think for PVE scourges will run staff of all things. Torch will go with scepter most likely, and offhand dagger is only used for one thing – corruption condi transfer. Yes, there is Enfeebling Blood, but it’s nothing spectacular. Staff gets to transfer same 3 condis as well, has some form of damaging condition on all 4 marks that will more than make up for EB loss, and, with SR probably being mandatory on scourge, will generate LF. Even if damage will be subpar, we may spend our time in staff after all marks are burned unloading utilities and shroud skills, and then jumping back to happy scepter AAing.

I would like to see burning added to the third hit if Dhuumfire is traited.

Edit: Also, add 150 to 225 healing if dagger is traited.

Anchoku.8142:

I would like to see burning added to the third hit if Dhuumfire is traited.

Edit: Also, add 150 to 225 healing if dagger is traited.

I’d rather have traits that proc on F1 to also proc on staff to give that weapon a bit more of a purpose. But the idea of these traits additonally modify a certain weapon skill or AA is actually quite nice.