Guild Wars 2

Wintermute.5408:

I’m starting to think for PVE scourges will run staff of all things.

I genuinely don’t see how. It seems to be a dps loss compared to dagger. Staff pretty much needs Terror (competes with Master of Corruption), Terrifying Descent and Soul Marks to be any good, at which point you sunk two traits into it and lost Master of Corruption.

And Terror just looks… bad.

I’d rather have traits that proc on F1 to also proc on staff to give that weapon a bit more of a purpose. But the idea of these traits additonally modify a certain weapon skill or AA is actually quite nice.

Agreed, it seems awesome. Should have more traits that actually change weapons in a bigger way.

Condi Scourge dps is currently really strong. I don’t think anyone is debating that? So, if it is already very good, why do you feel the need to make it better? That is exactly what you want. As strong as it is now, having some issues generating LF, what would it be like if LF was generation was easy? This is a good balance.

Zefiris.8297:

Wintermute.5408:

I’m starting to think for PVE scourges will run staff of all things.

I genuinely don’t see how. It seems to be a dps loss compared to dagger. Staff pretty much needs Terror (competes with Master of Corruption), Terrifying Descent and Soul Marks to be any good, at which point you sunk two traits into it and lost Master of Corruption.

And Terror just looks… bad.

Compared to what dagger? Mainhand is literally useless for condi as it is, and I have doubts anything will change with it. Offhand offers transfer of 3 condis (reaper got bleeds out of it, but not scourge), and 2 bleeds and some boon corruption (lol) with Enfeeble.

Now, staff has:
2: 2 bleeds with slightly lower duration and slightly lower damage than dagger5.
3: 3 poisons (have trouble comparing it to anything, not in mood to do math)
4: transfer of 3 condis
5: breakbar damage, 1 torment, 1 burn

Assuming traits:

Terrifying descent – Curses will remain mandatory, but with DC gone with reaper, there is no point in Chilling Darkness anymore, and Plague Sending is generally not used.

Soul marks – same reasoning. Mandatory line with not much else to choose from.

Demonic lore – up for debate. Big shade may end up more useful.

I mean, it obviously isn’t second coming in terms of condis. But staff more than makes up for loss of offhand dagger for its functionality, and offers much needed LF generation. Inability to use scepter will be sad, but may be bypassed by some smart rotation. And staff1 generates LF as well.

Overall, I’d rather ask for Staff1 to get condi attached to it, and turn it into full pledged secondary condi weapon. Potential is there, and IMHO it’s better than expect them to suddenly rework dagger mainhand for condi use. Because most likely it won’t happen.

MachineManXX.9746:

Condi Scourge dps is currently really strong. I don’t think anyone is debating that? So, if it is already very good, why do you feel the need to make it better? That is exactly what you want. As strong as it is now, having some issues generating LF, what would it be like if LF was generation was easy? This is a good balance.

Because PVE is a thing, and bosses don’t die in 5 seconds there. Burst damage is nothing if you can’t maintain it. Best regards.

Wintermute.5408:

MachineManXX.9746:

Condi Scourge dps is currently really strong. I don’t think anyone is debating that? So, if it is already very good, why do you feel the need to make it better? That is exactly what you want. As strong as it is now, having some issues generating LF, what would it be like if LF was generation was easy? This is a good balance.

Because PVE is a thing, and bosses don’t die in 5 seconds there. Burst damage is nothing if you can’t maintain it. Best regards.

I actually agree with you. And I think what you said about staff will end up being the optimal rotation with Scepter / X.

i hope 98% of you are off arenet’s radar when it comes to advice. power on scourge? do you even read traits? this kitten isn’t hard people.

“Sand Soul: Gain concentration and expertise for each of your active sand shade
Concentration: +75 per Shade
Expertise: +75 per Shade”

why in the kitten hell would you go full power on scourge? i’ve said since leak day 1 this was a hybrid spec. and with no obvious hybrid mainhand weapon, scourge falls flat. you can argue tormenting sigil would help a bit. but let’s be honest, 5s ICD with a single 5s torment tick is hardly worthy of a mainhand hybrid. scepter 3 doesn’t fit the bill. dagger auto is the only thing that can keep up with f5, and f4 spam off CD. oh and staff auto, but… c’mon, staff has needed attention for a long long time. and it’s never getting a look from a competent necro dev, so i’ll leave that one for now. and ask you to objectively look at necro’s current state and ask yourself, are the weapons really fitting the class at all?

Axe; long range power based weapon with vulnerability on auto attack. mediocre damage even at 25vuln. ghastly claws, doesn’t come close to any other class’ burst weapon skills without . unholy feast the added under 25% secondary burst was a nice try by the team, comparatively it falls short of being useful at all in pve content(stuff dies before you get the 1s cast off). axe is in a good spot in wvw/spvp. (good at dodge baiting)

staff; …. only good in zergs … on vanilla necro …. thats it

dagger; AA chain has no utility outside of LF gain. life siphon was changed to include more dmg/heal if you’re bleeding…. self bleed on #3 with a 25s cooldown… why? no i seriously want to know why they attempted to band-aid this weapon instead of fixing it? fixing as in bringing it up to par with other classes, i know necro doesn’t get dmg traits outside of close to death(if you’re under 50 vs a necro you’re dead anyway.) and axe’s unholy fervor. so increasing its damage by a small amount wouldn’t hurt overall, considering its a high risk/reward type of weapon.

not covering offhand, or greatsword. irrelevant in this topic. and GS they tried to follow a theme wich was stupid because that theme made GS extremely slow AA thats completely useless. the only use for it is utility, and lucky hits with gravedigger.

whatever, i’m at a loss on this class… this game, i don’t enjoy any other class so unless they stop approaching necro with abashed dichotomy in the current game, and actually make meaningful improvements to the core, a lot of like-minded players will most likely become embittered with it all.

Honestly if I want new weapon, its long range weapon, 1200. Because staff is clearly not a damage weapon. But it will be part of Elite spec, limit the option to core.

Was thinking about it, and I think a good Condition to add to Mainhand Dagger would be Poison.

I had thought about wanting Torment on the auto attack, but I saw it being overpowered, also with Dagger having an Immobilize, it wouldn’t make much sense. I had thought about Bleeding then too, but it would just end up just stacking Bleeding faster than Scepter. I don’t want a future where if Dagger gets a Condition, then it’s just camped, and Scepter is only for Ranged in PvE.

Also if they removed the ICD on Demoic Lore for PvE in the future, it’d just be spam Dagger nonstop. For the best playstyle with adding a Condition to Dagger I just think Poison would be a good addition. Necro doesn’t have much Poison outside of Reaper Shroud 4, Corrosive Poison Cloud, part of the Scepter auto, and Chilblains on
Staff 3. All of these don’t amount to much, and can’t really stack a good amount reliably.

Also we wouldn’t even really have Poison Duration capped in PvE most likely, because I expect Torment or Balthazar Runes to be used. When looking at just a filler Condition to have when weapon swapping on CD for Life Force generation for Sand Shades. I just see this being fair.

Anyone else think adding Poison works?

Wintermute.5408:

Zefiris.8297:

Wintermute.5408:

I’m starting to think for PVE scourges will run staff of all things.

I genuinely don’t see how. It seems to be a dps loss compared to dagger. Staff pretty much needs Terror (competes with Master of Corruption), Terrifying Descent and Soul Marks to be any good, at which point you sunk two traits into it and lost Master of Corruption.

And Terror just looks… bad.

Compared to what dagger? Mainhand is literally useless for condi as it is, and I have doubts anything will change with it. Offhand offers transfer of 3 condis (reaper got bleeds out of it, but not scourge), and 2 bleeds and some boon corruption (lol) with Enfeeble.

Now, staff has:
2: 2 bleeds with slightly lower duration and slightly lower damage than dagger5.
3: 3 poisons (have trouble comparing it to anything, not in mood to do math)
4: transfer of 3 condis
5: breakbar damage, 1 torment, 1 burn

Assuming traits:

Terrifying descent – Curses will remain mandatory, but with DC gone with reaper, there is no point in Chilling Darkness anymore, and Plague Sending is generally not used.

Soul marks – same reasoning. Mandatory line with not much else to choose from.

Demonic lore – up for debate. Big shade may end up more useful.

I mean, it obviously isn’t second coming in terms of condis. But staff more than makes up for loss of offhand dagger for its functionality, and offers much needed LF generation. Inability to use scepter will be sad, but may be bypassed by some smart rotation. And staff1 generates LF as well.

Overall, I’d rather ask for Staff1 to get condi attached to it, and turn it into full pledged secondary condi weapon. Potential is there, and IMHO it’s better than expect them to suddenly rework dagger mainhand for condi use. Because most likely it won’t happen.

This is a reply for PvE.

Staff is incredibly slow, and clunky. It wouldn’t generate enough Life Force compared to Mainhand Dagger for Sand Shade skills. This is for PvE though. In PvP and WvW Staff will be used as always.

The staff transfer also has a longer cast, and longer CD than Offhand Dagger. Which would feel clunky.

Scourge basically gets a penalty when having to switch to Mainhand Dagger to keep using Sand Shades for DPS and support. You’d lose more DPS not switching to it, but if they add a Condition to the auto, then it would fix this.

Staff Marks cast slow, the auto has a slow travel of 1.32 seconds as well. Mainhand Dagger just builds Life Force faster, and always will. Unless they just simply made Staff faster, then I don’t see it ever being used for Scourge unless the fight has a ton of adds, because Staff gives more Life Force per target. This may work in Fractals, but not for Raid bosses.

Not going to edit and rewrite this, but now that I think about it, in Fractals Staff may be great for speed clearing adds, and then switching to Mainhand Dagger for single target. Only thought this after realizing the Life Force gains with staff go up a ton when there are more targets to hit.

It will really depend on Life Force testing though. Will Mainhand Dagger, or Staff generate more Life Force in 9 seconds.

When I was testing it, I would spam Mainhand Dagger auto with Sand Shade skills, and then swap and use Feast of Corruption instantly. This would keep things flowing great, but the Demo will end soon, and I can’t test it with Staff now.

If anything Staff may be used for clearing groups of enemies fast on Scourge. If there are 5 Enemies the auto gives 20% Life Force, which is going to be insane for Sand Shade AoE.

Wintermute.5408:

Compared to what dagger? Mainhand is literally useless for condi as it is

It has no conditions, this is true. And yet…

…at least in the (not super representative) tests we could do, I always outdamaged a scepter only build with it. Every time. Staff, too, I outdamaged (tho that is probably less representative, because groups might make staff better).

If the life force from dagger outperforms the scepter conditions, then dagger is a reasonable choice even if it is a power weapon.

Of course, I kept the time in dagger to a minimum, but also remember that we do not use shroud in this build, meaning we can switch from and to dagger on cooldown, which synergizes heavily with “on weapon swap” sigils.

Zefiris.8297:

Wintermute.5408:

Compared to what dagger? Mainhand is literally useless for condi as it is

It has no conditions, this is true. And yet…

…at least in the (not super representative) tests we could do, I always outdamaged a scepter only build with it. Every time. Staff, too, I outdamaged (tho that is probably less representative, because groups might make staff better).

If the life force from dagger outperforms the scepter conditions, then dagger is a reasonable choice even if it is a power weapon.

Of course, I kept the time in dagger to a minimum, but also remember that we do not use shroud in this build, meaning we can switch from and to dagger on cooldown, which synergizes heavily with “on weapon swap” sigils.

I’m glad some people understand this. A lot are too stubborn to listen.

Just turn staff one into a projectile finisher (it’s already 20% there), and you have your condition swap weapon.

nekretaal.6485:

Just turn staff one into a projectile finisher (it’s already 20% there), and you have your condition swap weapon.

No matter what they do to Staff it just simply generates Life Force slower than Mainhand Dagger.

if anything, dagger auto should add cripple.

Ramoth.9064:

if anything, dagger auto should add cripple.

…and deal +20% damage to crippled foes.

(Isn’t that the actual way ANet overloads dagger with combo-gimmicks?)

Anyway, it would be pretty cool for power necro dps.

A damage condition on dagger would buff condi sustain even more. In relation to its damage potential condi sustain is already too high.

I would like for dagger main-hand to have some condi damage added to work for condi builds too.
I like the dagger skins…and like the idea of dagger + torch…

Whatever happens, Dagger really does need some love.

Zefiris.8297:

Not to mention that power is weak right now – giving it a bit more damage that way wouldn’t exactly hurt the game.

If power is weak what’s the point of making condi stronger by giving it another weapon option? Just found that a little ironic :P

Dinas Dragonbane.2978:

Zefiris.8297:

Not to mention that power is weak right now – giving it a bit more damage that way wouldn’t exactly hurt the game.

If power is weak what’s the point of making condi stronger by giving it another weapon option? Just found that a little ironic :P

With one trait, Deathly Chill, Reaper can sneak into a lower meta tier. Buff power by 10k dps to the mid 30s and Deathly Chill will still add chunk more dps even on full Berserker. Nerf Deathly Chill and Reaper receives a lot of hate in PvE. I think something is going to happen to Reaper when Scourge condi releases; core, too.

Dinas Dragonbane.2978:

Zefiris.8297:

Not to mention that power is weak right now – giving it a bit more damage that way wouldn’t exactly hurt the game.

If power is weak what’s the point of making condi stronger by giving it another weapon option? Just found that a little ironic :P

Because if they do buff power necro, it will likely be greatsword (our main power weapon) that gets a lot of the love. It’s a pipe dream that dagger will ever be a meta power weapon but, given what people are saying with scourge, it can bloom as a condi weapon (or hybrid).

I agree with the topic. I think the consensus is that we would still want to keep Dagger as a power weapon, but offer a bit of condition pressure to open up more builds and lessen the DPS drop switching to it in a Condition build would cause.

Thankfully, Path of Fire has given us the charge/ammo mechanic. Along with it, many underperforming skills on weapons such as Throw Axe on Warrior were given this new tech. I would actually do the same with Dark Pact and this topic is a good place to suggest such thing.

So, to please both sides I’d go with the version of Dark Pact linked in attachments. For few seconds, every Dagger hit would cause bleeding (duration is tbd) on a foe stuck by the ability. This would add another skill to the possible rotation as maybe even bring Life Siphon into it, since the skill hits 9 times.

Rym.1469:

I agree with the topic. I think the consensus is that we would still want to keep Dagger as a power weapon, but offer a bit of condition pressure to open up more builds and lessen the DPS drop switching to it in a Condition build would cause.

Thankfully, Path of Fire has given us the charge/ammo mechanic. Along with it, many underperforming skills on weapons such as Throw Axe on Warrior were given this new tech. I would actually do the same with Dark Pact and this topic is a good place to suggest such thing.

So, to please both sides I’d go with the version of Dark Pact linked in attachments. For few seconds, every Dagger hit would cause bleeding (duration is tbd) on a foe stuck by the ability. This would add another skill to the possible rotation as maybe even bring Life Siphon into it, since the skill hits 9 times.

That’s a good idea overall, but the self Bleeding does a lot of damage, and with an ammo mechanic could kill you easy. Having to use Life Siphon defeats the purpose of the Dagger. Switching to the dagger is solely for Life Force as Scourge to maintain DPS with Sand Shades.

Life Siphon is a 3 second cast, which would be 33% of the 9 second weapon swap CD wasted. Dark Pact is a 1 second cast, which would give 8 seconds left to gain Life Force before switching back. It wouldn’t really have to be an ammo mechanic, but just a short buff to work, because we wouldn’t be staying in it forever.

If they did add a Condition to Mainhand Dagger, they might have to nerf the Power Damage and scaling to balance it. So your idea is a good idea.

In a support Condition Build that would be using Mainhand Dagger mainly, it might kill you though with an ammo mechanic, unless you had Offhand Dagger for Deathly Swarm, or a good healer in a Raid.

dagger should have the buff thief got and if they add cripple on the second hit of the auto chain would be nice dagger, also the dagger trait is awful

Kam.4092:

Rym.1469:

I agree with the topic. I think the consensus is that we would still want to keep Dagger as a power weapon, but offer a bit of condition pressure to open up more builds and lessen the DPS drop switching to it in a Condition build would cause.

Thankfully, Path of Fire has given us the charge/ammo mechanic. Along with it, many underperforming skills on weapons such as Throw Axe on Warrior were given this new tech. I would actually do the same with Dark Pact and this topic is a good place to suggest such thing.

So, to please both sides I’d go with the version of Dark Pact linked in attachments. For few seconds, every Dagger hit would cause bleeding (duration is tbd) on a foe stuck by the ability. This would add another skill to the possible rotation as maybe even bring Life Siphon into it, since the skill hits 9 times.

That’s a good idea overall, but the self Bleeding does a lot of damage, and with an ammo mechanic could kill you easy. Having to use Life Siphon defeats the purpose of the Dagger. Switching to the dagger is solely for Life Force as Scourge to maintain DPS with Sand Shades.

Life Siphon is a 3 second cast, which would be 33% of the 9 second weapon swap CD wasted. Dark Pact is a 1 second cast, which would give 8 seconds left to gain Life Force before switching back. It wouldn’t really have to be an ammo mechanic, but just a short buff to work, because we wouldn’t be staying in it forever.

If they did add a Condition to Mainhand Dagger, they might have to nerf the Power Damage and scaling to balance it. So your idea is a good idea.

In a support Condition Build that would be using Mainhand Dagger mainly, it might kill you though with an ammo mechanic, unless you had Offhand Dagger for Deathly Swarm, or a good healer in a Raid.

The self-bleeding already exists on the skill and on live it’s 2x with the same duration. I just split both Corruption and self-bleed over two charges. With Quickness, Dagger builds Life Force very quickly. Both Dark Pact and Life Siphon cast times go down in half with that boon.

Brokensunday.4098:

dagger should have the buff thief got and if they add cripple on the second hit of the auto chain would be nice dagger, also the dagger trait is awful

Yes, out closest range weapon trait works only if we have high HP, like wtf… Its like that for more then 2 years, but since nobody even use dagger, we stayed silent. Or maybe we don’t use the dagger partially because the trait is lame…

Rym.1469:

I agree with the topic. I think the consensus is that we would still want to keep Dagger as a power weapon, but offer a bit of condition pressure to open up more builds and lessen the DPS drop switching to it in a Condition build would cause.

Thankfully, Path of Fire has given us the charge/ammo mechanic. Along with it, many underperforming skills on weapons such as Throw Axe on Warrior were given this new tech. I would actually do the same with Dark Pact and this topic is a good place to suggest such thing.

So, to please both sides I’d go with the version of Dark Pact linked in attachments. For few seconds, every Dagger hit would cause bleeding (duration is tbd) on a foe stuck by the ability. This would add another skill to the possible rotation as maybe even bring Life Siphon into it, since the skill hits 9 times.

This is pretty decent idea, it might make it to powerful tho. Probably should work only on auto attacks. But it turns the weapon both power and condi at the same time. I like having versatile options.

After some consideration I think this is actually great idea. Can work with both power and add that slightly lacking damage(compared to other dagger using professions). Also can tun into hybrid weapon. However the buff shouldn’t be more then 8sec. long and also doesn’t really benefit from ammo mechanic, except for the immobilize part. We will swap to this weapon and back to our main weapon on cd if using it as condi supplement weapon set. So more then 8 sec duration is overkill. Also the trait need to change obviously. Maybe something like:
-Chance on hit: 20-33% double attack(Necrotic Slash) (also another way to apply more bleeds)
-flat movement speed increase: 15% in combat
-Dagger Skill Recharge Reduced: 20%

Rym.1469:

Kam.4092:

Rym.1469:

I agree with the topic. I think the consensus is that we would still want to keep Dagger as a power weapon, but offer a bit of condition pressure to open up more builds and lessen the DPS drop switching to it in a Condition build would cause.

Thankfully, Path of Fire has given us the charge/ammo mechanic. Along with it, many underperforming skills on weapons such as Throw Axe on Warrior were given this new tech. I would actually do the same with Dark Pact and this topic is a good place to suggest such thing.

So, to please both sides I’d go with the version of Dark Pact linked in attachments. For few seconds, every Dagger hit would cause bleeding (duration is tbd) on a foe stuck by the ability. This would add another skill to the possible rotation as maybe even bring Life Siphon into it, since the skill hits 9 times.

That’s a good idea overall, but the self Bleeding does a lot of damage, and with an ammo mechanic could kill you easy. Having to use Life Siphon defeats the purpose of the Dagger. Switching to the dagger is solely for Life Force as Scourge to maintain DPS with Sand Shades.

Life Siphon is a 3 second cast, which would be 33% of the 9 second weapon swap CD wasted. Dark Pact is a 1 second cast, which would give 8 seconds left to gain Life Force before switching back. It wouldn’t really have to be an ammo mechanic, but just a short buff to work, because we wouldn’t be staying in it forever.

If they did add a Condition to Mainhand Dagger, they might have to nerf the Power Damage and scaling to balance it. So your idea is a good idea.

In a support Condition Build that would be using Mainhand Dagger mainly, it might kill you though with an ammo mechanic, unless you had Offhand Dagger for Deathly Swarm, or a good healer in a Raid.

The self-bleeding already exists on the skill and on live it’s 2x with the same duration. I just split both Corruption and self-bleed over two charges. With Quickness, Dagger builds Life Force very quickly. Both Dark Pact and Life Siphon cast times go down in half with that boon.

I know, but you want to be auto attacking with Mainhand Dagger for Life Force. If Dark Pact did a buff for Bleeding that lasted 10 seconds, then it would sync up great with weapon swap. That would be worth it, but Life Siphon would not be. Either way I’d rather there just be bleeding or Poison on the Mainhand Dagger auto attack.

mazut.4296:

Rym.1469:

I agree with the topic. I think the consensus is that we would still want to keep Dagger as a power weapon, but offer a bit of condition pressure to open up more builds and lessen the DPS drop switching to it in a Condition build would cause.

Thankfully, Path of Fire has given us the charge/ammo mechanic. Along with it, many underperforming skills on weapons such as Throw Axe on Warrior were given this new tech. I would actually do the same with Dark Pact and this topic is a good place to suggest such thing.

So, to please both sides I’d go with the version of Dark Pact linked in attachments. For few seconds, every Dagger hit would cause bleeding (duration is tbd) on a foe stuck by the ability. This would add another skill to the possible rotation as maybe even bring Life Siphon into it, since the skill hits 9 times.

This is pretty decent idea, it might make it to powerful tho. Probably should work only on auto attacks. But it turns the weapon both power and condi at the same time. I like having versatile options.

After some consideration I think this is actually great idea. Can work with both power and add that slightly lacking damage(compared to other dagger using professions). Also can tun into hybrid weapon. However the buff shouldn’t be more then 8sec. long and also doesn’t really benefit from ammo mechanic, except for the immobilize part. We will swap to this weapon and back to our main weapon on cd if using it as condi supplement weapon set. So more then 8 sec duration is overkill. Also the trait need to change obviously. Maybe something like:
-Chance on hit: 20-33% double attack(Necrotic Slash) (also another way to apply more bleeds)
-flat movement speed increase: 15% in combat
-Dagger Skill Recharge Reduced: 20%

Even if they buffed the Trait for Dagger, we wouldn’t be using Blood Magic over Soul Reaping. Soul Reaping has too much that helps Scourge for DPS and support. Also Necrotic Slash already hits twice by default.

These are good ideas, but they sort of over complicate an easy problem to fix. Just adding a Condition to the Mainhand Dagger auto attack fixes things.

Vitali.5039:

Dagger
What condi spec need: damaging condition application and life force generation.
Suggestion: reduce AA aftercast (more attack = more crits = more bleeding) and empowering Life Siphon to torment foes at each pulse while the caster its afflicted by bleeding.

^repost: more power and condition damage (from AA crits), faster life force generation and a reason to use both dark pact and life siphon.

Tematic reason: if someone its stealing your life you’ll be.. tormented?

Vitali.5039:

Vitali.5039:

Dagger
What condi spec need: damaging condition application and life force generation.
Suggestion: reduce AA aftercast (more attack = more crits = more bleeding) and empowering Life Siphon to torment foes at each pulse while the caster its afflicted by bleeding.

^repost: more power and condition damage (from AA crits), faster life force generation and a reason to use both dark pact and life siphon.

Tematic reason: if someone its stealing your life you’ll be.. tormented?

Personally I’m really not a fan of “do torment with life siphon if you have bleeding” because you’re not in control of the random condi removal going around. Seems similar to beta mallyx rev which ran into problems because of the same reason.

Kam.4092:

mazut.4296:

Rym.1469:

I agree with the topic. I think the consensus is that we would still want to keep Dagger as a power weapon, but offer a bit of condition pressure to open up more builds and lessen the DPS drop switching to it in a Condition build would cause.

Thankfully, Path of Fire has given us the charge/ammo mechanic. Along with it, many underperforming skills on weapons such as Throw Axe on Warrior were given this new tech. I would actually do the same with Dark Pact and this topic is a good place to suggest such thing.

So, to please both sides I’d go with the version of Dark Pact linked in attachments. For few seconds, every Dagger hit would cause bleeding (duration is tbd) on a foe stuck by the ability. This would add another skill to the possible rotation as maybe even bring Life Siphon into it, since the skill hits 9 times.

This is pretty decent idea, it might make it to powerful tho. Probably should work only on auto attacks. But it turns the weapon both power and condi at the same time. I like having versatile options.

After some consideration I think this is actually great idea. Can work with both power and add that slightly lacking damage(compared to other dagger using professions). Also can tun into hybrid weapon. However the buff shouldn’t be more then 8sec. long and also doesn’t really benefit from ammo mechanic, except for the immobilize part. We will swap to this weapon and back to our main weapon on cd if using it as condi supplement weapon set. So more then 8 sec duration is overkill. Also the trait need to change obviously. Maybe something like:
-Chance on hit: 20-33% double attack(Necrotic Slash) (also another way to apply more bleeds)
-flat movement speed increase: 15% in combat
-Dagger Skill Recharge Reduced: 20%

Even if they buffed the Trait for Dagger, we wouldn’t be using Blood Magic over Soul Reaping. Soul Reaping has too much that helps Scourge for DPS and support. Also Necrotic Slash already hits twice by default.

These are good ideas, but they sort of over complicate an easy problem to fix. Just adding a Condition to the Mainhand Dagger auto attack fixes things.

I think if we are already discussing adding conditions to dagger for the sake of PvE, making sure Necromancers get to use more than just auto-attack would be a good idea. Especially Life Siphon, since it’s such a good animation, but we were never able to really make use of it in PvE.

Add what it takes to those skills, in the end the condition-addition change can be made just for PvE.

Rym.1469:

Kam.4092:

mazut.4296:

Rym.1469:

I agree with the topic. I think the consensus is that we would still want to keep Dagger as a power weapon, but offer a bit of condition pressure to open up more builds and lessen the DPS drop switching to it in a Condition build would cause.

Thankfully, Path of Fire has given us the charge/ammo mechanic. Along with it, many underperforming skills on weapons such as Throw Axe on Warrior were given this new tech. I would actually do the same with Dark Pact and this topic is a good place to suggest such thing.

So, to please both sides I’d go with the version of Dark Pact linked in attachments. For few seconds, every Dagger hit would cause bleeding (duration is tbd) on a foe stuck by the ability. This would add another skill to the possible rotation as maybe even bring Life Siphon into it, since the skill hits 9 times.

This is pretty decent idea, it might make it to powerful tho. Probably should work only on auto attacks. But it turns the weapon both power and condi at the same time. I like having versatile options.

After some consideration I think this is actually great idea. Can work with both power and add that slightly lacking damage(compared to other dagger using professions). Also can tun into hybrid weapon. However the buff shouldn’t be more then 8sec. long and also doesn’t really benefit from ammo mechanic, except for the immobilize part. We will swap to this weapon and back to our main weapon on cd if using it as condi supplement weapon set. So more then 8 sec duration is overkill. Also the trait need to change obviously. Maybe something like:
-Chance on hit: 20-33% double attack(Necrotic Slash) (also another way to apply more bleeds)
-flat movement speed increase: 15% in combat
-Dagger Skill Recharge Reduced: 20%

Even if they buffed the Trait for Dagger, we wouldn’t be using Blood Magic over Soul Reaping. Soul Reaping has too much that helps Scourge for DPS and support. Also Necrotic Slash already hits twice by default.

These are good ideas, but they sort of over complicate an easy problem to fix. Just adding a Condition to the Mainhand Dagger auto attack fixes things.

I think if we are already discussing adding conditions to dagger for the sake of PvE, making sure Necromancers get to use more than just auto-attack would be a good idea. Especially Life Siphon, since it’s such a good animation, but we were never able to really make use of it in PvE.

Add what it takes to those skills, in the end the condition-addition change can be made just for PvE.

The only reason to use Mainhand Dagger on Scourge is to auto attack for Life Force. It doesn’t need to be made into a full on condition weapon. Just adding Bleeding or Poison to the auto attack is fine. Wasting potential Life Force gains on the other Mainhand Dagger skills would be a waste, since it’s about gaining Life Force fast in a 9 second window for your Sand Shades, then weapon swapping back to Scepter/Dagger.

Kam.4092:

Rym.1469:

Kam.4092:

mazut.4296:

Rym.1469:

I agree with the topic. I think the consensus is that we would still want to keep Dagger as a power weapon, but offer a bit of condition pressure to open up more builds and lessen the DPS drop switching to it in a Condition build would cause.

Thankfully, Path of Fire has given us the charge/ammo mechanic. Along with it, many underperforming skills on weapons such as Throw Axe on Warrior were given this new tech. I would actually do the same with Dark Pact and this topic is a good place to suggest such thing.

So, to please both sides I’d go with the version of Dark Pact linked in attachments. For few seconds, every Dagger hit would cause bleeding (duration is tbd) on a foe stuck by the ability. This would add another skill to the possible rotation as maybe even bring Life Siphon into it, since the skill hits 9 times.

This is pretty decent idea, it might make it to powerful tho. Probably should work only on auto attacks. But it turns the weapon both power and condi at the same time. I like having versatile options.

After some consideration I think this is actually great idea. Can work with both power and add that slightly lacking damage(compared to other dagger using professions). Also can tun into hybrid weapon. However the buff shouldn’t be more then 8sec. long and also doesn’t really benefit from ammo mechanic, except for the immobilize part. We will swap to this weapon and back to our main weapon on cd if using it as condi supplement weapon set. So more then 8 sec duration is overkill. Also the trait need to change obviously. Maybe something like:
-Chance on hit: 20-33% double attack(Necrotic Slash) (also another way to apply more bleeds)
-flat movement speed increase: 15% in combat
-Dagger Skill Recharge Reduced: 20%

Even if they buffed the Trait for Dagger, we wouldn’t be using Blood Magic over Soul Reaping. Soul Reaping has too much that helps Scourge for DPS and support. Also Necrotic Slash already hits twice by default.

These are good ideas, but they sort of over complicate an easy problem to fix. Just adding a Condition to the Mainhand Dagger auto attack fixes things.

I think if we are already discussing adding conditions to dagger for the sake of PvE, making sure Necromancers get to use more than just auto-attack would be a good idea. Especially Life Siphon, since it’s such a good animation, but we were never able to really make use of it in PvE.

Add what it takes to those skills, in the end the condition-addition change can be made just for PvE.

The only reason to use Mainhand Dagger on Scourge is to auto attack for Life Force. It doesn’t need to be made into a full on condition weapon. Just adding torment to the auto attack is fine. Wasting potential Life Force gains on the other Mainhand Dagger skills would be a waste, since it’s about gaining Life Force fast in a 9 second window for your Sand Shades, then weapon swapping back to Scepter/Dagger.

There we go.

Vitali.5039:

Vitali.5039:

Dagger
What condi spec need: damaging condition application and life force generation.
Suggestion: reduce AA aftercast (more attack = more crits = more bleeding) and empowering Life Siphon to torment foes at each pulse while the caster its afflicted by bleeding.

^repost: more power and condition damage (from AA crits), faster life force generation and a reason to use both dark pact and life siphon.

Tematic reason: if someone its stealing your life you’ll be.. tormented?

actually weaken

Brokensunday.4098:

Vitali.5039:

Vitali.5039:

Dagger
What condi spec need: damaging condition application and life force generation.
Suggestion: reduce AA aftercast (more attack = more crits = more bleeding) and empowering Life Siphon to torment foes at each pulse while the caster its afflicted by bleeding.

^repost: more power and condition damage (from AA crits), faster life force generation and a reason to use both dark pact and life siphon.

Tematic reason: if someone its stealing your life you’ll be.. tormented?

actually weaken

They should explode into blood.

I really enjoy Dagger/Dagger celestial Necro…. That would be OP giving that to daggers across the board….

Giving this suggestion to PvP only though, that could open up some more builds because as it stands, Sage/Menders Amulet makes the best use of dagger main hand.

Not happening. Dagger is already very strong and with well defined role – swift attacking power weapon with strong sustain (life leech, life force generation, amount of life stealing hits if you went blood magic), and traditional boon corrupt (+ nice immob).

It is mostly for that very high sustain that dagger is not #1 power weapon, and obviously can’t get condi damage. For what it does, it’s already strong enough.

What necro does need is some decent life force generation on condi weapons …one that’s actually tied to condi and not spamming power aa on a condi weapon (staff).
Torch could use some Lf generation.
And necro in general could use a condi melee mainhand. Mace is still free for him, so that’s a nice candidate to begin with.

ZeftheWicked.3076:

Not happening. Dagger is already very strong and with well defined role – swift attacking power weapon with strong sustain (life leech, life force generation, amount of life stealing hits if you went blood magic), and traditional boon corrupt (+ nice immob).

It is mostly for that very high sustain that dagger is not #1 power weapon, and obviously can’t get condi damage. For what it does, it’s already strong enough.

What necro does need is some decent life force generation on condi weapons …one that’s actually tied to condi and not spamming power aa on a condi weapon (staff).
Torch could use some Lf generation.
And necro in general could use a condi melee mainhand. Mace is still free for him, so that’s a nice candidate to begin with.

If you think we could use a Condition Mainhand weapon, then why not add a Condition to Mainhand Dagger? Waiting another two years for the next Elite Spec, which won’t be Condition probably for one is dumb.

Because there are such things as a power budget and a role. Mind you a-net’s just getting aquainted with the latter.

But in dagger’s case both are very strong and clear. It’s the solid melee “blood power” weapon that delivers tons of health and life force while outputting very respectable (for a necro) power dps.

Also take a longer moment to ponder on why you want the dagger buff.
I’ll go on a limb and guess it’s because scourge lacks any LF without a dagger, but scourges are in need of condi weapons, not power one.

This is a clear case of necro having a huge hole in his weapon selection – no melee condi weapon with decent life force generation.
And how is it that some get two handed weapons (Renegade, Deadeye), spellbreaker gets two, while necro has to settle for a measely offhand?

If anything i’d say they could add scourge specific trait that would help generate life force for condi builds. Well there’s always the staff, but that’s like saying “maybe this pistol can’t fire shots, but you can always bash your enemies to death with it!”.

ZeftheWicked.3076:

Because there are such things as a power budget and a role. Mind you a-net’s just getting aquainted with the latter.

But in dagger’s case both are very strong and clear. It’s the solid melee “blood power” weapon that delivers tons of health and life force while outputting very respectable (for a necro) power dps.

Also take a longer moment to ponder on why you want the dagger buff.
I’ll go on a limb and guess it’s because scourge lacks any LF without a dagger, but scourges are in need of condi weapons, not power one.

This is a clear case of necro having a huge hole in his weapon selection – no melee condi weapon with decent life force generation.
And how is it that some get two handed weapons (Renegade, Deadeye), spellbreaker gets two, while necro has to settle for a measely offhand?

If anything i’d say they could add scourge specific trait that would help generate life force for condi builds. Well there’s always the staff, but that’s like saying “maybe this pistol can’t fire shots, but you can always bash your enemies to death with it!”.

See the idea for making dagger our condi melee weapon were:
1. We currently lack a condi melee weapon (anet filled in many missing weapons in PoF but not for necro oddly enough).
2. Scourge is a condi/support spec, that relies heavily on life force generation but currently lacks a condi weapon for LF gen.
3. Dagger is under performing in pve, where a lot of the demands are coming from.

My suggestion was to keep #2 and #3 exactly as they are, but just add torment to each attack on auto (pve only if need be). This would mean people in pvp or wvw could carry on as they were before whilst pve users (power or condi) would both receive a damage buff.
And as it has been stated, we’re not going to be getting another weapon for a few years. If we are to get a condi melee weapon before 2 years are over, this is the best route.

I doubt a-net would let us keep things as they are if aa was to get such a buff. Dagger’s damage is good but not best because of it’s crazy good lf generation and life leech. Something would get the axe for those torment stacks.

Meanwhile staff is still being as useless as it was and it’s aa is still a pure power projectile on a condi weapon…

You can’t buff Dagger just because of a LF regen problem on Scourge without affecting the whole range of builds that use it. The solution to a LF regen problem on Scourge has nothing to do with buffing a single weapon. That’s some of the most thoughtless solution we could possibly get. … unless of course if you only want dagger to be mildy useful as a Scourge weapon. I don’t think you guys see the corner you’re backing yourself into.

ZeftheWicked.3076:

I doubt a-net would let us keep things as they are if aa was to get such a buff. Dagger’s damage is good but not best because of it’s crazy good lf generation and life leech. Something would get the axe for those torment stacks.

Meanwhile staff is still being as useless as it was and it’s aa is still a pure power projectile on a condi weapon…

If it were pve only, it would be balanced given that dagger is absolutely terrible in pve.

Obtena.7952:

You can’t buff Dagger just because of a LF regen problem on Scourge without affecting the whole range of builds that use it. The solution to a LF regen problem on Scourge has nothing to do with buffing a single weapon. That’s some of the most thoughtless solution we could possibly get. … unless of course if you only want dagger to be mildy useful as a Scourge weapon. I don’t think you guys see the corner you’re backing yourself into.

Please enlighten me as to all these Pve builds that run dagger mainhand. Because last time I checked, no serious builds run it.

I don’t get your question … any build a player in PVE decides to use dagger mainhand is a build that runs dagger mainhand. Your logic is irrelevant anyways; I can assure you that Anet does not take changes like this lightly because something metapushers might label as ‘not serious’. Anet has shown they will buff a wide range of skills and weapons, or nerf them, contrary to what any metapusher thinks should be done. in fact, it’ve quite common for Anet to affect what’s meta based on changes to things, os it seems to me that what is ‘serious’ or not has no bearing on if it’s a good idea to buff something or not.

On the other hand, I can say factually on history, changing a weapon that can be used in any build is a balancing issue that we know Anet considers.

The whole approach people are asking for here makes little sense. If LF regain is a Scourge issue, then it should be solved within the Scourge skills/tools to maintain the overall levels of the Necro class as a whole.

Obtena.7952:

I don’t get your question … any build a player in PVE decides to use dagger mainhand is a build that runs dagger mainhand. Your logic is irrelevant anyways; I can assure you that Anet does not take changes like this lightly because something metapushers might label as ‘not serious’. Anet has shown they will buff a wide range of skills and weapons, or nerf them, contrary to what any metapusher thinks should be done. in fact, it’ve quite common for Anet to affect what’s meta based on changes to things, os it seems to me that what is ‘serious’ or not has no bearing on if it’s a good idea to buff something or not.

On the other hand, I can say factually on history, changing a weapon that can be used in any build is a balancing issue that we know Anet considers.

The whole approach people are asking for here makes little sense. If LF regain is a Scourge issue, then it should be solved within the Scourge skills/tools to maintain the overall levels of the Necro class as a whole.

Your previous statement suggested many builds would be affected by the additional condition on auto. Power builds would receive a slight damage buff but it wouldn’t change how they were played. Sustain builds, same as before.
And there are plenty of weapons throughout gw2 that can be used for multiple roles two exambles being Staff and Greatsword both of which can be played as condi or power. Allowing dagger mainhand to be viable for both condi or power seems like a fair buff, given how underused it already is.

I once was running a open world power build with Dagger mainhand, it was to get the 25 cruelty stack and then swap to Greatsword. Replaced with Axe changes

Maybe Lahmia.2193 should not have asked about serious build but about good builds (wich lead to performing wich lead to meta). Woah, those daggers changes could be so “gamebreaking”! Its not like MH dagger it’s one of the worst weapons we have PvP wise against players with hands while not dealing enough damage for the utility it give..

And to me Dagger mainhand isn’t a 100% power weapon anymore since Dark Pact’s changes.

Lahmia.2193:

Obtena.7952:

I don’t get your question … any build a player in PVE decides to use dagger mainhand is a build that runs dagger mainhand. Your logic is irrelevant anyways; I can assure you that Anet does not take changes like this lightly because something metapushers might label as ‘not serious’. Anet has shown they will buff a wide range of skills and weapons, or nerf them, contrary to what any metapusher thinks should be done. in fact, it’ve quite common for Anet to affect what’s meta based on changes to things, os it seems to me that what is ‘serious’ or not has no bearing on if it’s a good idea to buff something or not.

On the other hand, I can say factually on history, changing a weapon that can be used in any build is a balancing issue that we know Anet considers.

The whole approach people are asking for here makes little sense. If LF regain is a Scourge issue, then it should be solved within the Scourge skills/tools to maintain the overall levels of the Necro class as a whole.

Your previous statement suggested many builds would be affected by the additional condition on auto.

Let me correct you … all builds using mainhand dagger would be affected by the additional condition on auto … and if you don’t think that matters to people, most importantly Anet, for considering if this is a reasonable change to be made and how it affects their view of the concept of the weapon and it’s balance to the class overally, then I don’t think you are paying attention to how the game has worked and changed over the last 5 years.

Maybe you don’t think the change is significant enough to warrant all the fuss. From a purely DPS view, that’s probably correct. DPS output is not the only thing that is considered. The meta mindset will not give you the proper perspective because Anet is not balancing and making changes because of the meta.

Frankly, this isn’t even the best solution to the LF ‘problem’ on Scourge, even if you reject swapping weapons as a solution. The whole premise that we push for some lame amount of condi on dagger to get better LF regen with Scourge is just garbage to begin with. The suggestion to add condi on dagger is such a blatant attempt at power creep that I can’t even believe anyone would think this a serious suggestion.

Obtena.7952:

The suggestion to add condi on dagger is such a blatant attempt at power creep that I can’t even believe anyone would think this a serious suggestion.

The problem with redditors like you is your strange, and slightly bewildering idea that this is a)power creep and b)bad. No idea why you guys even have this power creep meme, because it’s really, really silly.

If something is bad and unused, buffing it is not “power creep” or whatever word salad you want to shout, it’s bringing it up to par.

Zefiris.8297:

Obtena.7952:

The suggestion to add condi on dagger is such a blatant attempt at power creep that I can’t even believe anyone would think this a serious suggestion.

The problem with redditors like you is your strange, and slightly bewildering idea that this is a)power creep and b)bad. No idea why you guys even have this power creep meme, because it’s really, really silly.

If something is bad and unused, buffing it is not “power creep” or whatever word salad you want to shout, it’s bringing it up to par.

Necromancer in GW2 doesn’t know power creep. We’d really like to know what it looks like, it seems interesting. (seriously, that’s not power creep if your profession is so behind the others it’s a joke)

Zefiris.8297:

Obtena.7952:

The suggestion to add condi on dagger is such a blatant attempt at power creep that I can’t even believe anyone would think this a serious suggestion.

The problem with redditors like you is your strange, and slightly bewildering idea that this is a)power creep and b)bad. No idea why you guys even have this power creep meme, because it’s really, really silly.

If something is bad and unused, buffing it is not “power creep” or whatever word salad you want to shout, it’s bringing it up to par.

Just because the weapon is unused does not mean this is not power creep. The funny thing is that no one acknowledges that the performance of a condition-upgraded dagger, even in Scourge, will still be pretty poor compared to a optimized Scepter Condi setup … and then tell me this isn’t a bad idea? Please tell me what a condi-upgraded dagger Scourge setup even looks like … it looks like a non-optimized condition setup using Viper armor and missing out on the best condition traits while relying on a power weapon to deliver damage. That’s garbage … and that’s the best solution for LF regen on Scourge you are going to support … GG.

This suggestion solves no problem, other than giving dagger a little more DPS in a completely useless way; no power build can do anything with that addition outside of Scourge and I’m doubtful it’s better DPS than Scepter will be on Scourge. It’s just more damage tacked onto dagger, just because people can’t be bothered to swap weapons while using Scourge. If that’s not the definition of power creep, then power creep doesn’t exist.