(edited by Obtena.7952)
Main Hand Dagger Condi
Unholy Fervor give bonus damage to axe skills if there is vulnerability on them. Axe 1 inflicts vulnerability. heavens, nooooooooooooo.
But not being in line with the intent of the weapon? The weapon already has a skill that wants your foes to bleed.
Again, I’ve explained why that’s a reason to NOT add bleed to dagger AA. The weapon takes advantage of bleeding foes; that does not mean it’s intent is to be a condition application weapon. Enabling the weapon to give the extra dagger 2 advantage without thought is a stupid implementation.
I love how you just ignored the part there about Axe having received a very similar change. In fact, it happened in the exact same patch as Life Siphon started caring about Bleeding! They’re even both #2 skills and channels!
I don’t see how the two influence each other’s concepts. Axe does both, doesn’t necessarily mean that dagger needs to as well. Of course, it doesn’t mean dagger can’t but that’s neither here nor there. I’ve given reasons I don’t think it should.
No its completely here, and not there. You’ve given reasons that have been proved invalid.
But not being in line with the intent of the weapon? The weapon already has a skill that wants your foes to bleed.
Again, I’ve explained why that’s a reason to NOT add bleed to dagger AA. The weapon takes advantage of bleeding foes; that does not mean it’s intent is to be a condition application weapon. Enabling the weapon to give the extra dagger 2 advantage without thought is a stupid implementation.
I love how you just ignored the part there about Axe having received a very similar change. In fact, it happened in the exact same patch as Life Siphon started caring about Bleeding! They’re even both #2 skills and channels!
I don’t see how the two influence each other’s concepts. Axe does both, doesn’t necessarily mean that dagger needs to as well. Of course, it doesn’t mean dagger can’t but that’s neither here nor there. I’ve given reasons I don’t think it should.
Your reasons have been…nonexistent, really. You’ve basically been saying “I don’t think it should have bleeding because then it would have bleeding and I don’t think it should have that.”
But not being in line with the intent of the weapon? The weapon already has a skill that wants your foes to bleed.
Again, I’ve explained why that’s a reason to NOT add bleed to dagger AA. The weapon takes advantage of bleeding foes; that does not mean it’s intent is to be a condition application weapon. Enabling the weapon to give the extra dagger 2 advantage without thought is a stupid implementation.
I love how you just ignored the part there about Axe having received a very similar change. In fact, it happened in the exact same patch as Life Siphon started caring about Bleeding! They’re even both #2 skills and channels!
I don’t see how the two influence each other’s concepts. Axe does both, doesn’t necessarily mean that dagger needs to as well. Of course, it doesn’t mean dagger can’t but that’s neither here nor there. I’ve given reasons I don’t think it should.
And just because you don’t see something doesn’t mean your opinion is anymore correct. It just means you don’t see it.
But not being in line with the intent of the weapon? The weapon already has a skill that wants your foes to bleed.
Again, I’ve explained why that’s a reason to NOT add bleed to dagger AA. The weapon takes advantage of bleeding foes; that does not mean it’s intent is to be a condition application weapon. Enabling the weapon to give the extra dagger 2 advantage without thought is a stupid implementation.
I love how you just ignored the part there about Axe having received a very similar change. In fact, it happened in the exact same patch as Life Siphon started caring about Bleeding! They’re even both #2 skills and channels!
I don’t see how the two influence each other’s concepts. Axe does both, doesn’t necessarily mean that dagger needs to as well. Of course, it doesn’t mean dagger can’t but that’s neither here nor there. I’ve given reasons I don’t think it should.
Your reasons have been…nonexistent, really. You’ve basically been saying “I don’t think it should have bleeding because then it would have bleeding and I don’t think it should have that.”
No that’s actually unfair and dishonest; there have been many reasons given for why I don’t think this should happen. Dismiss them as you wish, but they are well documented in this thread. Even my previous post gives one (of many) good explanation to why I don’t think bleed should be on dagger AA. You simply ignore them.
(edited by Obtena.7952)
But not being in line with the intent of the weapon? The weapon already has a skill that wants your foes to bleed.
Again, I’ve explained why that’s a reason to NOT add bleed to dagger AA. The weapon takes advantage of bleeding foes; that does not mean it’s intent is to be a condition application weapon. Enabling the weapon to give the extra dagger 2 advantage without thought is a stupid implementation.
I love how you just ignored the part there about Axe having received a very similar change. In fact, it happened in the exact same patch as Life Siphon started caring about Bleeding! They’re even both #2 skills and channels!
I don’t see how the two influence each other’s concepts. Axe does both, doesn’t necessarily mean that dagger needs to as well. Of course, it doesn’t mean dagger can’t but that’s neither here nor there. I’ve given reasons I don’t think it should.
Your reasons have been…nonexistent, really. You’ve basically been saying “I don’t think it should have bleeding because then it would have bleeding and I don’t think it should have that.”
No that’s actually unfair and dishonest; there have been many reasons given for why I don’t think this should happen. Dismiss them as you wish, but they are well documented in this thread.
Its perfectly fair and honest, and it was addressed by your sequence of contradictions.
again you said:
Bleed goes against the intentions of the weapon
The intentions of the weapon can change
Bleed won’t change the intentions of the weapon
Bleed shouldn’t be applied to a weapon that benefits from bleeding.
And here we are.
But not being in line with the intent of the weapon? The weapon already has a skill that wants your foes to bleed.
Again, I’ve explained why that’s a reason to NOT add bleed to dagger AA. The weapon takes advantage of bleeding foes; that does not mean it’s intent is to be a condition application weapon. Enabling the weapon to give the extra dagger 2 advantage without thought is a stupid implementation.
I love how you just ignored the part there about Axe having received a very similar change. In fact, it happened in the exact same patch as Life Siphon started caring about Bleeding! They’re even both #2 skills and channels!
I don’t see how the two influence each other’s concepts. Axe does both, doesn’t necessarily mean that dagger needs to as well. Of course, it doesn’t mean dagger can’t but that’s neither here nor there. I’ve given reasons I don’t think it should.
Your reasons have been…nonexistent, really. You’ve basically been saying “I don’t think it should have bleeding because then it would have bleeding and I don’t think it should have that.”
No that’s actually unfair and dishonest; there have been many reasons given for why I don’t think this should happen. Dismiss them as you wish, but they are well documented in this thread. Even my previous post gives one (of many) good explanation to why I don’t think bleed should be on dagger AA. You simply ignore them.
Oh, I’m sorry, I was only counting reasons given that weren’t directly addressed.
- would be too strong
Strength of a damaging condition added depends on condition, stack count, and stack duration. Keeping these low ensures this isn’t a problem unless dagger is already where it needs to be on damage (you’ve said yourself that it isn’t.)
- Would make Scepter irrelevant
Scepter has a massive range advantage and would still put out higher DPS in a condition build than a low stack condition.
- would encourage people camping dagger
You weren’t able to back this up and actually immedietly backtracked when called out on it.
- would remove choice
It would actually open up a new choice to condition builds
- would discourage swapping
Low stacks=only using dagger for building life force/sustain. Swapping necessary for higher damage output.
- isn’t on theme for the weapon/against the identity
Weapon already has a skill that wants the target bleeding. Giving it a way to actually accomplish that goal is called “synergy” not “lack of identity” or “changing identity.”
- bleeding on target would be braindead if added to auto
To be fair, I haven’t addressed this one yet because I thought it was so obvious, but this would require completing a full auto chain before using Life Siphon. And I mean right before with a short Bleed, as in no time to do anything else if you wanted to maximize the damage. Considering Life Siphon has a range advantage over the auto of 470, this is hardly a sure thing.
- bleeding should be achieved through other means
Why? Should Ghastly Claws lose its damage buff versus Vulnerable targets because the auto applies Vulnerability? Should Scepter not inflict conditions with the auto or Grasping Dead because Feast of Corruption wants conditions on the target?
Bring up a legitimate argument that’s not “I don’t like it” and I’ll answer it completely in 5 sentences or less.
(edited by Drarnor Kunoram.5180)
Wow, lots of… discussion.
I started playing with math and some broad, sweeping assumptions. C&C is welcome.
Warning, I used en.gw2skills.net build editor for power damage calculations but the numbers for condition damage just would not quite match the wiki so some of it was based on wiki’s condition damage formulas.
———————————————-
One 3.5 sec bleed on 2 of 3 dagger AA strikes in a 2 sec rotation should give a stack of 3.5 bleeds or a stack of 7 bleeds with capped condi duration. Using ascended Viper’s and assuming capped bleed duration and no rune or consumable stat’s for a total of 1385 condition damage, my awful math skills say that adds about 735 condi dps with close to 1.2k power dps on dagger AA for roughly a 60% dps increase. Barbed Precision would likely proc along with Blood Bond in addition to the 20% boost to Life Siphon.
At first, I thought that might be too much for Arenanet to accept; especially if a bleeds are available from sigils of earth and geomancy in PvE/WvW, if we only want the boost to Life Siphon.
However, if I look at it another way, the same, bare Viper’s condi-Reaper has three 5-sec bleeds on a sub-3 sec AA rotation (call it an 11 bleed stack with 100% duration) for ~ 1.155 kdps in addition to the ~ 1k dps power damage on a 3-target cleave vs dagger’s 2. (Thinking about hit-box size.) This is a lower-tier meta’s AA for comparison without taking into account Gravedigger. Also, this ignores crit’s, assuming they proc with close to the same frequency and damage for GS and dagger.
So, if we want MH dagger dps to be viable in a raid, it would need >80% increase in dps to equal greatsword with Deathly Chill in a hybrid build and not counting crit’s.
For comparison, scepter AA is three 4.5 sec bleeds on a 2.4 sec rotation for 5.625 stacks without lingering curses or 16.875 stacks with LC, 100% duration bonus, and an extra 150 condition damage (1535 total) for 1.925 k dps. Add in about 400 dps for power damage, 470 dps for poison, and that is almost 2.8 k dps that is super easy to apply, super slow, and super boring, too, because it takes 17 seconds to peak, if the target waits that long. It does not have a cleave, though, unless you count Epidemic in the case of add’s, and crit’s on scepter will be much less significant than dagger or GS.
Those numbers were for a hybrid build with 100% duration bonus. Full Berserker’s Reaper AA with sigil of force and signet of spite is supposedly 1.445 kdps without critical hits, runes, or consumables until Close to Death kicks in and raises dps to 1.734 on AA but, then, it is time to start spinning and forget AA. Dagger on Berserker AAs with about 1.47 kdps, or 1.764 kdps for targets under 50%, without crit’s or Gravedigger’s dizzying awesomeness. The two look pretty similar with the exception of Gravedigger’s instant cool down when a target is <50%. Imagine Life Siphon having a 1.5 sec ICD when targets are <50%.
With Berserker’s 50% crit rate out of shroud and 214% crit bonus, I figure AA dps is roughly doubled but that is only when standing <130 away from the target. Outside of that, it is close to zero whereas scepter continues slapping happily up to 900. Against power-Reaper’s Gravedigger or vanilla-Necro’s high-dps kiting with scepter, dagger falls way short but I cannot say it is because of AA. Rather scepter is optimized for condition damage builds and will only work as condi while greatsword is a magical blender with an option to bleed.
Has anyone considered adding bleeds to Life Siphon or Dark Pact or tack bleeds onto main hand weapons with a Scourge trait? Perhaps Arenanet should buff those two skills further. They seem weak compared to Gravedigger and Death Spiral.
That was probably a huge waste of time but hope it gives a basis for further discussion.
I saw two more pages to the thread, and was happy at first, then saw it’s just more arguing with Obtena. Your replies seriously give me a headache man. This is past normal discussion, and is just you saying no to everything, and acting like you’re some all knowing person when it comes to class development, and balance.
Can you just please Chill a bit, and let more people post criticism for a bit. We get your views, but we disagree with you. You post like this in so many threads. I always wonder if you’re trolling or not.
This thread is a great suggestion, and just because you dislike it, or disagree with it doesn’t give you the right to just go off like this. You do this so much on this forum, and it leads to the same thing in every thread.
Just chill for a bit :/
But not being in line with the intent of the weapon? The weapon already has a skill that wants your foes to bleed.
Again, I’ve explained why that’s a reason to NOT add bleed to dagger AA. The weapon takes advantage of bleeding foes; that does not mean it’s intent is to be a condition application weapon. Enabling the weapon to give the extra dagger 2 advantage without thought is a stupid implementation.
I love how you just ignored the part there about Axe having received a very similar change. In fact, it happened in the exact same patch as Life Siphon started caring about Bleeding! They’re even both #2 skills and channels!
I don’t see how the two influence each other’s concepts. Axe does both, doesn’t necessarily mean that dagger needs to as well. Of course, it doesn’t mean dagger can’t but that’s neither here nor there. I’ve given reasons I don’t think it should.
Your reasons have been…nonexistent, really. You’ve basically been saying “I don’t think it should have bleeding because then it would have bleeding and I don’t think it should have that.”
No that’s actually unfair and dishonest; there have been many reasons given for why I don’t think this should happen. Dismiss them as you wish, but they are well documented in this thread. Even my previous post gives one (of many) good explanation to why I don’t think bleed should be on dagger AA. You simply ignore them.
Oh, I’m sorry, I was only counting reasons given that weren’t directly addressed.
- would be too strong
Strength of a damaging condition added depends on condition, stack count, and stack duration. Keeping these low ensures this isn’t a problem unless dagger is already where it needs to be on damage (you’ve said yourself that it isn’t.)
- Would make Scepter irrelevant
Scepter has a massive range advantage and would still put out higher DPS in a condition build than a low stack condition.
- would encourage people camping dagger
You weren’t able to back this up and actually immedietly backtracked when called out on it.
- would remove choice
It would actually open up a new choice to condition builds
- would discourage swapping
Low stacks=only using dagger for building life force/sustain. Swapping necessary for higher damage output.
- isn’t on theme for the weapon/against the identity
Weapon already has a skill that wants the target bleeding. Giving it a way to actually accomplish that goal is called “synergy” not “lack of identity” or “changing identity.”
- bleeding on target would be braindead if added to auto
To be fair, I haven’t addressed this one yet because I thought it was so obvious, but this would require completing a full auto chain before using Life Siphon. And I mean right before with a short Bleed, as in no time to do anything else if you wanted to maximize the damage. Considering Life Siphon has a range advantage over the auto of 470, this is hardly a sure thing.
- bleeding should be achieved through other means
Why? Should Ghastly Claws lose its damage buff versus Vulnerable targets because the auto applies Vulnerability? Should Scepter not inflict conditions with the auto or Grasping Dead because Feast of Corruption wants conditions on the target?Bring up a legitimate argument that’s not “I don’t like it” and I’ll answer it completely in 5 sentences or less.
^Pretty much this
Oh, I’m sorry, I was only counting reasons given that weren’t directly addressed.
- would be too strong
Strength of a damaging condition added depends on condition, stack count, and stack duration. Keeping these low ensures this isn’t a problem unless dagger is already where it needs to be on damage (you’ve said yourself that it isn’t.)
- Would make Scepter irrelevant
Scepter has a massive range advantage and would still put out higher DPS in a condition build than a low stack condition.
- would encourage people camping dagger
You weren’t able to back this up and actually immedietly backtracked when called out on it.
- would remove choice
It would actually open up a new choice to condition builds
- would discourage swapping
Low stacks=only using dagger for building life force/sustain. Swapping necessary for higher damage output.
- isn’t on theme for the weapon/against the identity
Weapon already has a skill that wants the target bleeding. Giving it a way to actually accomplish that goal is called “synergy” not “lack of identity” or “changing identity.”
- bleeding on target would be braindead if added to auto
To be fair, I haven’t addressed this one yet because I thought it was so obvious, but this would require completing a full auto chain before using Life Siphon. And I mean right before with a short Bleed, as in no time to do anything else if you wanted to maximize the damage. Considering Life Siphon has a range advantage over the auto of 470, this is hardly a sure thing.
- bleeding should be achieved through other means
Why? Should Ghastly Claws lose its damage buff versus Vulnerable targets because the auto applies Vulnerability? Should Scepter not inflict conditions with the auto or Grasping Dead because Feast of Corruption wants conditions on the target?Bring up a legitimate argument that’s not “I don’t like it” and I’ll answer it completely in 5 sentences or less.
I’m only going to address and correct your recap of the concerns that I ACTUALLY have (not sure where you made up the others from):
1. The build choice argument is lame; there are not more builds opening up because of this simple suggestion; at most, a condition might give a player pause to rethink a trait or a sigil. By you’re own admittance, if you only put bleed on the last chain so it’s not a braindead bleed on target, then this is made even less effective as a ‘choice’ for condition build applications. Claiming we get all these new build options as a smokescreen to get this on dagger is dishonest IMO.
2. Bleeding shouldn’t only be open to us with other means … but it already IS open to us from other means. Adding bleed to dagger is actually redundant and doesn’t make players think about how to take advantage of effective their builds give or think about applying effects their builds have. Maybe you think making the game dumber is a good thing; I do not.
3. Any bleed added to auto removes any thoughtful execution of Dagger 2 that exists … if the target is always bleeding, the effect is always active. They might as well just buff Dagger 2 another 20% and be done. Adding an way to get a special event effect permanently is dumb.
4. It would be too strong; No, I did not say it would be too strong. I object to the thoughtless idea that putting a condition on a power weapon as an effective way to buff its DPS. Taking advantage of a condition on dagger that with different traits/skills/gear prefix would actually be a DPS loss compared to vanilla builds using dagger. This is one of the primary reasons I dislike this idea; condi buffing dagger is a dead end. That may change with Scourge but it’s speculative.
5. It would make Scepter irrelevant; No, I didn’t say that. People argued that they wanted a melee condition weapon because of a ‘gap’. I’m pointing out to them that Scepter used at melee range already fills that gap.
6. Weapon identity. I think this is a strong point that people easily gloss over because they misunderstand what weapon concept is; I don’t blame them because Anet doesn’t explicitly explain them. Still, they exist and there are strong hints of what those concepts are. I haven’t got a problem if you want to propose dagger be something else as a concept. I do have a problem if you want to add an effect and claim it ‘fits’ what dagger should be.
I’m not the only one that objects to this idea in the thread either, for much the same reasons I hold. If there is one overall concluding statement I can make, it’s stated simply: There are better opportunities to address these issues than the path chosen by this idea.
(edited by Obtena.7952)
In my country ther’s a proverb:
“Non tentare di insegnare a cantare ad un maiale:
sprechi il tuo tempo e infastidisci il maiale.”
Don’t try to teach how to sing to a pig:
you lose your time and make the pig annoyed
But I could try..
1. The build choice argument is lame; there are not more builds opening up because of this simple suggestion; at most, a condition might give a player pause to rethink a trait or a sigil. By you’re own admittance, if you only put bleed on the last chain so it’s not a braindead bleed on target, then this is made even less effective as a ‘choice’ for condition build applications. Claiming we get all these new build options as a smokescreen to get this on dagger is dishonest IMO.
Maybe there will not be new builds cause someone have already tried all the avaiable combination but surely all those builds will be more viable while not becoming OP.
2. Bleeding shouldn’t only be open to us with other means … but it already IS open to us from other means. Adding bleed to dagger is actually redundant and doesn’t make players think about how to take advantage of effective their builds give or think about applying effects their builds have. Maybe you think making the game dumber is a good thing; I do not.
Noone wan’t to play a dumber game here, ther’re too many dumb games out there.
3. Any bleed added to auto removes any thoughtful execution of Dagger 2 that exists … if the target is always bleeding, the effect is always active. They might as well just buff Dagger 2 another 20% and be done. Adding an way to get a special event effect permanently is dumb.
And I that was certain that the only good thing about Life Siphon was actually the healing part that take advantage of the bleed the caster have on itself and not the +20% “overpowered damage”..
4. It would be too strong; No, I did not say it would be too strong. I object to the thoughtless idea that putting a condition on a power weapon as an effective way to buff its DPS. Taking advantage of a condition on dagger that with different traits/skills/gear prefix would actually be a DPS loss compared to vanilla builds using dagger. This is one of the primary reasons I dislike this idea; condi buffing dagger is a dead end. That may change with Scourge but it’s speculative.
Noone will run a Dagger power build with traits/skills/gear grefix that would drop the overall dps only to have a little more damage from it. Oh, actually dagger isn’t even our best power weapon and neither the second.
5. It would make Scepter irrelevant; No, I didn’t say that. People argued that they wanted a melee condition weapon because of a ‘gap’. I’m pointing out to them that Scepter used at melee range already fills that gap.
This is just a dumb thing to say, peoples aren’t asking specifically for a damaging condition weapon to use at close range but a fast life force building one also good for condition builds. If scepter could make us gain the needed life force noone would run dagger.
6. Weapon identity. I think this is a strong point that people easily gloss over because they misunderstand what weapon concept is; I don’t blame them because Anet doesn’t explicitly explain them. Still, they exist and there are strong hints of what those concepts are. I haven’t got a problem if you want to propose dagger be something else as a concept. I do have a problem if you want to add an effect and claim it ‘fits’ what dagger should be.
Nothing to say here if not that we think about the concept of dagger differently.
There are better opportunities to address these issues than the path chosen by this idea.
Such as boost power damage overshadowing greatsword’s dps?
i would rather have staff completely reworked than see just bleeding added to dagger
I want this too. Staff has so many great skins that I only ever get to see it when I go PvP for my seasonal Plat/Leggy badge. Which isn’t much since I usually only do the minimum req games. It would be nice if it had some use in PvE too since that seems to have become my main game mode in recent months.
But tbh, no offense to Anet, but I just don’t see them putting in the work to rework an an entire weapon set when they can simply change a single auto attack chain.
Anything to stop Scepter/Torch + Scepter/Dagger in raids from happening, man. I can’t go back to having basically no rotation like the old build after Condi GS. Like 800 LI gained on Necro almost exclusively and I’ll seriously drop Necro to play Engi in raids if it happens.
Oh, I’m sorry, I was only counting reasons given that weren’t directly addressed.
- would be too strong
Strength of a damaging condition added depends on condition, stack count, and stack duration. Keeping these low ensures this isn’t a problem unless dagger is already where it needs to be on damage (you’ve said yourself that it isn’t.)
- Would make Scepter irrelevant
Scepter has a massive range advantage and would still put out higher DPS in a condition build than a low stack condition.
- would encourage people camping dagger
You weren’t able to back this up and actually immedietly backtracked when called out on it.
- would remove choice
It would actually open up a new choice to condition builds
- would discourage swapping
Low stacks=only using dagger for building life force/sustain. Swapping necessary for higher damage output.
- isn’t on theme for the weapon/against the identity
Weapon already has a skill that wants the target bleeding. Giving it a way to actually accomplish that goal is called “synergy” not “lack of identity” or “changing identity.”
- bleeding on target would be braindead if added to auto
To be fair, I haven’t addressed this one yet because I thought it was so obvious, but this would require completing a full auto chain before using Life Siphon. And I mean right before with a short Bleed, as in no time to do anything else if you wanted to maximize the damage. Considering Life Siphon has a range advantage over the auto of 470, this is hardly a sure thing.
- bleeding should be achieved through other means
Why? Should Ghastly Claws lose its damage buff versus Vulnerable targets because the auto applies Vulnerability? Should Scepter not inflict conditions with the auto or Grasping Dead because Feast of Corruption wants conditions on the target?Bring up a legitimate argument that’s not “I don’t like it” and I’ll answer it completely in 5 sentences or less.
I’m only going to address and correct your recap of the concerns that I ACTUALLY have (not sure where you made up the others from):
1. The build choice argument is lame; there are not more builds opening up because of this simple suggestion; at most, a condition might give a player pause to rethink a trait or a sigil. By you’re own admittance, if you only put bleed on the last chain so it’s not a braindead bleed on target, then this is made even less effective as a ‘choice’ for condition build applications. Claiming we get all these new build options as a smokescreen to get this on dagger is dishonest IMO.
2. Bleeding shouldn’t only be open to us with other means … but it already IS open to us from other means. Adding bleed to dagger is actually redundant and doesn’t make players think about how to take advantage of effective their builds give or think about applying effects their builds have. Maybe you think making the game dumber is a good thing; I do not.
3. Any bleed added to auto removes any thoughtful execution of Dagger 2 that exists … if the target is always bleeding, the effect is always active. They might as well just buff Dagger 2 another 20% and be done. Adding an way to get a special event effect permanently is dumb.
4. It would be too strong; No, I did not say it would be too strong. I object to the thoughtless idea that putting a condition on a power weapon as an effective way to buff its DPS. Taking advantage of a condition on dagger that with different traits/skills/gear prefix would actually be a DPS loss compared to vanilla builds using dagger. This is one of the primary reasons I dislike this idea; condi buffing dagger is a dead end. That may change with Scourge but it’s speculative.
5. It would make Scepter irrelevant; No, I didn’t say that. People argued that they wanted a melee condition weapon because of a ‘gap’. I’m pointing out to them that Scepter used at melee range already fills that gap.
6. Weapon identity. I think this is a strong point that people easily gloss over because they misunderstand what weapon concept is; I don’t blame them because Anet doesn’t explicitly explain them. Still, they exist and there are strong hints of what those concepts are. I haven’t got a problem if you want to propose dagger be something else as a concept. I do have a problem if you want to add an effect and claim it ‘fits’ what dagger should be.
I’m not the only one that objects to this idea in the thread either, for much the same reasons I hold. If there is one overall concluding statement I can make, it’s stated simply: There are better opportunities to address these issues than the path chosen by this idea.
Omg there are ways to self bleed already, why would you add self bleed to dagger 3 arenanet? Why? Obetna is going to tell you how dumb and redundant that is.
And omg remove vulnerability from axe 1 already, how dare you make weapons have synnergy.
Oh obtena, how about you throw some of these “better solutions” our way. If you constantly say “there are better eats to deal with this” it sounds like you already have the answer. Probably because you think you work at arenanet. Let’s see how your own solutions stand up to your own tenets lmao.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cauterizing_Strike
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Searing_Slash_
Lmao. How dare you Arenanet, how dare you.
i would rather have staff completely reworked than see just bleeding added to dagger
I want this too. Staff has so many great skins that I only ever get to see it when I go PvP for my seasonal Plat/Leggy badge. Which isn’t much since I usually only do the minimum req games. It would be nice if it had some use in PvE too since that seems to have become my main game mode in recent months.
But tbh, no offense to Anet, but I just don’t see them putting in the work to rework an an entire weapon set when they can simply change a single auto attack chain.
Anything to stop Scepter/Torch + Scepter/Dagger in raids from happening, man. I can’t go back to having basically no rotation like the old build after Condi GS. Like 800 LI gained on Necro almost exclusively and I’ll seriously drop Necro to play Engi in raids if it happens.
its not even just about the autoattack, the entire weapon is the least creative of all they’ve made. 4 the same looking skills and a generic autoattack projectile. i want spells and not 4 aoe traps.
i would rather have staff completely reworked than see just bleeding added to dagger
I want this too. Staff has so many great skins that I only ever get to see it when I go PvP for my seasonal Plat/Leggy badge. Which isn’t much since I usually only do the minimum req games. It would be nice if it had some use in PvE too since that seems to have become my main game mode in recent months.
But tbh, no offense to Anet, but I just don’t see them putting in the work to rework an an entire weapon set when they can simply change a single auto attack chain.
Anything to stop Scepter/Torch + Scepter/Dagger in raids from happening, man. I can’t go back to having basically no rotation like the old build after Condi GS. Like 800 LI gained on Necro almost exclusively and I’ll seriously drop Necro to play Engi in raids if it happens.
its not even just about the autoattack, the entire weapon is the least creative of all they’ve made. 4 the same looking skills and a generic autoattack projectile. i want spells and not 4 aoe traps.
I’d love to have trident and staff swapped
i would rather have staff completely reworked than see just bleeding added to dagger
I want this too. Staff has so many great skins that I only ever get to see it when I go PvP for my seasonal Plat/Leggy badge. Which isn’t much since I usually only do the minimum req games. It would be nice if it had some use in PvE too since that seems to have become my main game mode in recent months.
But tbh, no offense to Anet, but I just don’t see them putting in the work to rework an an entire weapon set when they can simply change a single auto attack chain.
Anything to stop Scepter/Torch + Scepter/Dagger in raids from happening, man. I can’t go back to having basically no rotation like the old build after Condi GS. Like 800 LI gained on Necro almost exclusively and I’ll seriously drop Necro to play Engi in raids if it happens.
its not even just about the autoattack, the entire weapon is the least creative of all they’ve made. 4 the same looking skills and a generic autoattack projectile. i want spells and not 4 aoe traps.
I’d love to have trident and staff swapped
Frozen Abyss on land with deathly chill <3
Surrender and serve me in life, or die and slave for me in death.
its not even just about the autoattack, the entire weapon is the least creative of all they’ve made. 4 the same looking skills and a generic autoattack projectile. i want spells and not 4 aoe traps.
I know, I meant the auto on dagger. Just changing the auto on staff would not be enough. Unless the auto change was silly strong. But that’s bad design. That’s why I said it’s more likely they would just add a little something to dagger auto, since its a smaller workload than a fullscale weapon set rework.
I want a Necro version of Prime Light Beam on a reworked Staff though. The damage bubble thing from Lupi would be really rad too. But this stuff is just wishful thinking.
Oh obtena, how about you throw some of these “better solutions” our way.
No problem … if you guys want to solve a “need more LF regen for condition builds” problem, then the staff is a step away from being that weapon. I didn’t even have to think too hard about it and neither would anyone else with lots of Necro experience.
1. Its got the conditions flavour to it already
2. Its got the range to match the Scepter if you want to use that as a strategy
3. Its got the LF regen people desire
4. Its AOE so it plays right into how Shades work for Area Control
1. I would fix #2 to be a more significant conditions contribution. That’s tweeking numbers
2. Staff has been missing a Combo Field for a LONG time, just like Guardian Scepter/Sword were missing Symbols … It would be a nice addition. To be honest, I don’t recall what the various combo finishers do but I don’t think it would be too hard to come up with an appropriate field inline with the theme of the Staff.
3. I would probably remove piercing to an AOE or tweek AA speed … because the projectile is bloody slow and people/NPC’s don’t tend to line up for you, but bunch up. Either works IMO.
The Staff weapon concept is already inline with the things that people are looking for. It’s way easier to think of ways to improve Staff for a role it’s already partially good at than it is to thoughtlessly adjust dagger INTO a concept that even buffed, it would be at best, average.
Staff is very slow on the life force generation. It also already does have a combo field on 3.
The issue with staff is that it just does no damage and it requires a trait to generate life force on anything but the auto. Dagger is at least close to being sufficient.
Basically, adding bleeds on Dagger auto fulfills the role without requiring a total rework, which is what Staff needs. You’re constantly screaming pointlessly about the “identity” of a weapon. Staff doesn’t have one aside from “1200 range”.
Necrotic Slash – x2 bleeds, 1 second duration
Necrotic Stab – x1 bleed, 3 second duration
Necrotic Bite – x1 bleed, 3 second duration
At 100% bleed duration, you could maintain ~8 stacks of bleeding. Enough to make it more viable but not too much as to diminish Sceptre.
Surrender and serve me in life, or die and slave for me in death.
Staff is very slow on the life force generation. It also already does have a combo field on 3.
The issue with staff is that it just does no damage and it requires a trait to generate life force on anything but the auto. Dagger is at least close to being sufficient.
Basically, adding bleeds on Dagger auto fulfills the role without requiring a total rework, which is what Staff needs. You’re constantly screaming pointlessly about the “identity” of a weapon. Staff doesn’t have one aside from “1200 range”.
Hey, you can delude yourself all you want about what is rework and what isn’t; any suggestion is going to take Anet to do something. Staff is ALREADY closer to that “LF regen Condi” weapon than any AA condi-buffed dagger will ever be. These are just semantics … The amount of LF regen on staff is more dependent on the scenario than dagger is; I don’t think it’s a forgone conclusion that Staff is worst than dagger in that respect, or even inappropriate … I don’t think anyone established that we need the HIGHEST LF regen to solve this problem, just more than what Scepter gives. Staff does that.
Still, if Anet is willing to change a weapon, none of it’s stats are set in stone. If it would be reasonable or necessary to up the LF regen on Staff, it could be done, without breaking it’s concept. Conceptually, Staff is a more appropriate weapon to address these LF regen/condi problems than dagger will ever be.
(edited by Obtena.7952)
You say that “conceptually, staff is a more appropriate weapon” when Staff doesn’t have a concept, but Dagger does. And dagger’s concept is dealing with blood.
Is Staff currently closer to actually being a condition weapon that generates life force? Yes, because currently it actually has some damaging conditions on it while dagger does not.
But on theme, Dagger is closer to being that weapon. Life Siphon, you rip the blood out of your target and into yourself to recover. Dark Pact, you pay in blood to cripple your target. Adding bleed stacks to the auto turns the theme of that chain into pulling the blood and life energy from the target.
Staff doesn’t have a concept to work with, though. It’s in dire need of one, but until it has one, it really can’t be directed toward any given role.
Staff doesn’t have a concept? I would beg to differ. I think it’s concept is pretty clear … AOE effects that ‘mark’ targets applying debilitating conditions at range. I mean, how is that not a straight forward concept? It’s about as ‘vanilla’ a staff conceptualization as you can get …
Regardless, if the concepts are too abstract for you, then simply looking at what Staff does and how it does it in the current ‘space’ of Necro condi builds should be a simpler way to conclude how it is closer to what people are asking for. The point isn’t to argue what has the ‘best’ or ‘clearest’ concept; that’s only one aspect to be considered. The point is what weapon is most likely to address the problems people have defined; if we stick to LF regen on a condition build, Staff is clearly closer to solving that problem, technically and conceptually.
(edited by Obtena.7952)
What about giving dagger paralysis effect or something for melee? or something which could make a build Axe/Dagger useful?
Imagine if you could go into melee range use dagger para then use for an example axe.
Staff has one “debilitating” skill on it in Chillblains. It has two CC skills, one hard (Reaper’s Mark), one soft (Chillblains). It has one condition transfer skill. Then there’s Mark of Blood which is a DoT/HoT skill sort of (you don’t get both unless you’re in melee range).
None of the skills actually work together. There isn’t a theme at all there. Cool, everything but the auto has the same delivery method. That’s not a theme or identity. Staff is just a hodepodge of random skills only unified by their range.
Scepter has an identity: conditions.
Axe has an identity: execution.
Dagger has an identity: blood.
Greatsword has an identity: brawling.
Staff does not have an identity.
Staff could potentially be used to fill the “condition build life force builder” weapon, but it needs a total rework to do so. Dagger mainhand, meanwhile, would need only a small change and would strengthen its conceptual identity in the process, as well as moving it away from being in direct competition with Greatsword.
Staff is the utility weapon which is why its so “hodgepodge”
Moreover staff already has a role to itself that it fills, and fills well. It’s a mainstay in both sPvP and WvW.
Dagger on the other hand is just a power melee weapon that competes directly with greatsword, and because of that is never used in any of the gamemodes.
If dagger was given some level of synergy with condis, it would actually have a place because it would not have a direct competitor for its slot.
While making staff more interactive would be nice, staff is hardly in need of a rework since its already competitive in several modes.
Sanity is for the weak minded.
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(edited by Crinn.7864)
Is Staff competitive, or used only because there’s no other choice? It’s our only 1200 range weapon, and it also is AoE, so no matter how pathetic the actual skills are, it will get used in WvW. In PvP, there’s no other secondary weapon that applies damaging conditions, so it gets used on Condition builds.
No, you can’t even say it’s used in either mode for the unblockable AoE CC, because Warhorn provides longer CC on a shorter cooldown and cast time with less protection against it.
Staff could potentially be used to fill the “condition build life force builder” weapon, but it needs a total rework to do so. Dagger mainhand, meanwhile, would need only a small change and would strengthen its conceptual identity in the process, as well as moving it away from being in direct competition with Greatsword.
That’s not really an accurate assessment … Staff ALREADY has the ingredients on it to address the concerns people are expressing. Making Staff a more appropriate ‘LF regen Condi" weapon does not require much more than some changes to the numbers that already exist on it; I question even now why anyone use use a condi buffed dagger over the current version of staff. What does that build even look like? What’s it used for?
There is a big problem with the whole approach in this thread; There isn’t a problem trying to be solved. What you have is a bunch of people that WANT a reason to use the dagger coming up with reasons it would be good to do so. The problem is that there are BETTER ways to solve the problems those reasons address. I mean, the whole problem that there isn’t much LF regen on a condi build isn’t even necessarily a weapon buff solution in the first place! Why would anyone want to be locked into a WEAPON to address that problem? Why would any Scepter Necro want a melee weapon to do that? Do you really expect me to believe that Scepter Condi users WANT to go to melee range to replen their LF with a dagger? Have you put any thought into the fact that if people want to be melee condi, they are already using the superior Reaper GS chill approach to do that? Do you honestly think a condi buffed dagger has a role in either the Secpter or GS condi builds?
I honestly don’t think anyone has thought this suggestion through. You’re all so desperate to get ANY buff on dagger to make it more desirable to use, that you’re willing to suggest of marginal ones to get it hoping something clicks with Anet. I think that’s tragic.
(edited by Obtena.7952)
Fun fact: melee range happens in all game modes, even on condition builds. It’s true!
The reasons for the desire of this change are simple:
1. Scourge has an immense appetite for Life Force.
2. Condition builds (of which Scourge is intended to enhance) are godawful at generating life force.
3a. Weapons are the best source of Life Force. Utilities generate it too slowly overall (may have great burst generation, but are then accompanied by long cooldowns).
3b. Staff generates life force too slowly and completely kills damage output beyond redemption for serious consideration.
4. Dagger is an underperforming weapon, but has great life force generation.
5. Swapping to dagger to provide life force in a condition build cuts damage too much to actually gain any advantage.
6. Adding damaging conditions to dagger auto reduces the damage loss for condition builds while they build life force. It also significantly improves the damage output for Power builds, as they frequently stack Might well.
7. Dagger already has skills that deal with Bleeding.
Proposal: add short bleeds to the dagger auto. This helps solve most of the problems the weapon currently has, is a small change, and gives a viable option for life force gain for condition specs in many areas of the game.
Staff would need just as much of a change to the auto-attack as well as numbers buffs on 4/5 skills (Putrid Mark is probably fine as-is from a numbers standpoint). In addition, this would go against the common balancing aspect of “risk vs. reward.” Condition builds are already fairly safe due to their ranged capabilities, which is one of the reasons Power Necro is currently so terrible. Buffing Staff up to the point where it becomes the life force generation weapon for condition builds is going oddly against that. Why should the safest weapon also be the best life force generatior?
Staff is the utility weapon which is why its so “hodgepodge”
Moreover staff already has a role to itself that it fills, and fills well. It’s a mainstay in both sPvP and WvW.
Dagger on the other hand is just a power melee weapon that competes directly with greatsword, and because of that is never used in any of the gamemodes.
If dagger was given some level of synergy with condis, it would actually have a place because it would not have a direct competitor for its slot.
While making staff more interactive would be nice, staff is hardly in need of a rework since its already competitive in several modes.
This is what I call ‘chasing’ meta; the idea that a large portion of a toolset being competitive is a necessary part of a healthy toolset, and using that idea to justify the need to change. I don’t believe that’s a compelling reason for change, because Anet is either incapable or not interested in doing so; evidence of the 5 years we HAVEN’T had a large range of ‘competitive’ weapons on every class.
I don’t disagree because because I do think you’re right .. it would be NICE for weapons to be more inline with each other and have some ‘place’ in the game. I just think that kind of thinking doesn’t provoke Anet. They simply provide a wide range of concepts for us to mix and match; they aren’t really concerned with ensure these combination ‘do’ something in a certain upper range of performance.
(edited by Obtena.7952)
Fun fact: melee range happens in all game modes, even on condition builds. It’s true!
That’s right … We have a GS and a Scepter condi builds. So again, I’m seriously questioning where a melee condi weapon fits into EITHER of those builds … and even why the issues people express that a condi dagger would solve are not already solved with a Staff.
GS beats dagger in melee damage and LF regen; Scepter beats dagger in condition application. How does creating a marginally applicable weapon in any of those categories help either of those groups of condi users? What is that build look like and what is it used for?
You list the reasons this is desired. You can list 100 reasons this or anything else is desired; being desirable is less than compelling. The question is what problem are you trying to solve and why is the condi buffed dagger the BEST way to solve that. I think that solving ‘LF regen on condi’ builds is NOT best solved with a condi buffed dagger, simply because of how close Staff already is to doing that as well as being a meaningful alternative in either a Scepter or a GS condi build. It’s not even clear that a weapon buff approach is the best way to address that problem, so how anyone in this thread has nailed down “bleed on dagger AA” is beyond me.
(edited by Obtena.7952)
Yes, staff need a buff to save us from the hard choice of weaponswap.
Surely the theme of our field control utility weapon is to give us good dps and to achieve that I suggest to make marks more like wells, conditioning repetitively every pulse (for the actual condition stack and duration and yes, even fear) and giving 4% life force on every pulse + unblockable while traited, staff is so underused in PvP and WvW and a buff is what it need! I’m sure that will not be OP at all!
Obviously I don’t think this kitten but seems that spout nonsense is a trend.
Oh ANET, buff everything but not the dagger, pls
Lol all your arguments about stuff arenanet wont do, has been done by arenanet.
Look above, weaver sword on fire, inflicts burning, takes advantage of people who are burning. Exactly what was suggested for the dagger here.
You’re so desperate to argue yourself out of the hole you’ve dug yourself, its tragic!
No one would take staff as anything more than a utility weapon they can’t wait to get out of. For it to be any good it needs to be more than a fire and forget weapon, and none of your laughable tweaks would do that.
If understanding meta is so hard for you, you really should get yourself acquainted to competitive game modes before you spout these nonsensical arguments. Its a farce!
If understanding meta is so hard for you, you really should get yourself acquainted to competitive game modes before you spout these nonsensical arguments. Its a farce!
You want to talk about competitive game modes while supporting the idea of condi buffed daggers? That’s a seemingly contradictory position. Perhaps you want to clear it up by presenting a competitive build that reaps the benefits of this condi buffed dagger or you all talk?
No one is being specific about competitive game modes in this discussion except for you. I don’t think it’s an unreasonable ask: If the condi buffed dagger is so awesome to fix certain condi builds, competitive or not, then obviously you and others have put some effort into what those builds are, how they would work and where they are used … why so sheepish? Obviously I’m open and interested to a discussion on that. Show me I’m wrong; that these builds exist. So far you got … chill on dagger; at best, an inferior copy cat of the GS. Not a good first show.
No one would take staff as anything more than a utility weapon they can’t wait to get out of. For it to be any good it needs to be more than a fire and forget weapon.
… and? You’re re-iterating what I said here; no where did I give the impression that staff would sufficiently fill the ‘condi LF regen’ role as it exists now, to be clear, I simply believe it’s an easier ‘sell’ to buff staff to address the reasons people want to buff dagger. Of course you didn’t comprehend that, or chose to not do so.
The irony is that you complain about staff is a weapon that people don’t want to use more than they have to. Funny … that’s exactly what anyone would think about a condi buffed dagger as well … fill your LF and get out ASAP.
(edited by Obtena.7952)
If understanding meta is so hard for you, you really should get yourself acquainted to competitive game modes before you spout these nonsensical arguments. Its a farce!
You want to talk about competitive game modes while supporting the idea of condi buffed daggers? That’s a seemingly contradictory position. Perhaps you want to clear it up by presenting a competitive build that reaps the benefits of this condi buffed dagger or you all talk?
No one is being specific about competitive game modes in this discussion except for you. I don’t think it’s an unreasonable ask: If the condi buffed dagger is so awesome to fix certain condi builds, competitive or not, then obviously you and others have put some effort into what those builds are, how they would work and where they are used … why so sheepish? Obviously I’m open and interested to a discussion on that. Show me I’m wrong; that these builds exist. So far you got … chill on dagger; at best, an inferior copy cat of the GS. Not a good first show.
No one would take staff as anything more than a utility weapon they can’t wait to get out of. For it to be any good it needs to be more than a fire and forget weapon.
… and? You’re re-iterating what I said here; no where did I give the impression that staff would sufficiently fill the ‘condi LF regen’ role as it exists now, to be clear, I simply believe it’s an easier ‘sell’ to buff staff to address the reasons people want to buff dagger. Of course you didn’t comprehend that, or chose to not do so.
The irony is that you complain about staff is a weapon that people don’t want to use more than they have to. Funny … that’s exactly what anyone would think about a condi buffed dagger as well … fill your LF and get out ASAP.
Your complete whole first paragraph makes zero sense. People are suggesting adjustments to make things competitive. Its clear that the only person who is all talk is you, you’ve continually suggested things "on account of arenanet’’ yet fail to see they do things contrary to what you say. Thats the irony.
And I have no need to prove anything to you, not with you not actually making coherent arguments. Your replies consist of ‘no that won’t work, and that’s because i said so’. You have no experience doing anything competitive, so your rebuttals hold no water. You are the ultimate example of the dunning kruger effect.
Bleed on dagger as others have shown, suits dagger perfectly, yet you, lol, have been making nonsensical arguments that have become so cyclical you’ve lost track of where your argument is.
(edited by Ramoth.9064)
I’m not sure we need more effects on a weapon that basically need QoL. I’m trading all your bleeds against a attack speed improvement on the daggers skills.
When we look at some of the less popular skills of the necromancer, we can see that anet tried to fix them by adding more and more effect. We can also see that it never fixed the real issue.
Look at unholy feast it was just a slow skill that cripple and damage foes around you while giving you retaliation. Now, I’m affraid that the only thing it doen’t do is making us some coffee. The issue have always been that it’s a “close” range skill on a long range skill with a slow cast time.
Look at dagger #2 & 3, did they needed all these extra when a simple improvement in base attack speed and range would have make them perfectly fine?
This whole bleed on auto attack wouldn’t make the dagger “op”, it would only add more load on an auto attack that is inherently flawed due to it’s low attack speed on the 3rd skill of the chain.
I don’t think the necromancer need more change like those, but that’s sure the kind of change that anet is used to do on the necromancer.
No core profession should be balanced around an optional elite specialization.
ArenaNet could easily make all 3 Dagger skills worth using, that’s mostly a matter of numbers.
As I said, bleed debuff on Dark Pact, then baseline Life Siphon damage increase, replacing it with generating Life Force when used on bleeding targets.
We could get away with just adding bleed to AA, but that would cement the rotation to autoattacks. If we’re doing this for PvE, let’s make all 3 skills worth using.
Joining the discussion, Staff is possibly an option. If we’re going for SR anyways, the adept tier offers Soul Marks and there aren’t better group pve options. I could see Staff being used in situations when you can get value out of AA piercing. It also has a condition transfer for Corruptions, although very low damage and not that interesting playstyle for PvE (apart from positioning for piercing maybe). I’d welcome it as an alternative to D/D in AoE fights.
One last thing the community may be overlooking is that ArenaNet’s plan for Scourge could be making us invest into Vitality, since Scourge skills costs are set values, not percentages. Maybe there is some Viper’s gear with Vitality instead of precision/power, who knows.
[rude]Antagonistka – Revenant, EU.
[SALT]Natchniony – Necromancer, EU.
Streams: http://www.twitch.tv/rym144
[SALT]Natchniony – Necromancer, EU.
Streams: http://www.twitch.tv/rym144
(edited by Rym.1469)
Staff is too slow for Life Force regen. You’d only want to stay outside of Scepter for 9 seconds. Even if they buffed it, to cast all the marks, and auto attack, it’d give less Life Force than Dagger, unless it was a big group of enemies, then auto attack spam would net more Life Force than Dagger.
Right now there is a DPS loss switching to Dagger to maintain Sand Shade skill usage, but it’d be way more of a loss just camping Scepter. People keep bringing up the DPS loss, but if we camped Scepter forever the loss would be an extreme loss in DPS. Dagger just keeps us right where we need to, so we can keep using Sand Shade skills.
I tested Staff, and for it to even compare to the speed of Dagger Life Force regen, it’d need to have the Trait buffed, and auto attack buffed for more Life Force, also would need Bleed on auto attack. This is too much to change. The time spent buffing Staff verses adding a Bleed to Dagger auto attack would be way longer.
I don’t understand why Obtena is still arguing this. Multiple people have said similar things to what I’m posting right now. Adding a Bleed to Dagger would be the easiest and quickest fix for the balance team to do. Think about their time spent as well.
Also in case anyone forgot, the demo and preview of Scourge had them wielding a Mainhand Dagger. Maybe this was a true sign that we’d need to use it. Since the Devs have seen this thread most likely, they will add a Bleed to Dagger most likely, because even they likely saw Dagger was best for Life Force.
I get you stick to your own views and opinions Obtena, but many here have made great points with knowledge and numbers to back them up. Within the first hour of testing Scourge I realized Dagger was the best Life Force generator. It needs a Bleed on auto attack, and it’s a simple fix for Scourge, and takes the least amount of time to implement.
Also staff will have its uses with Scourge in Fractals, Dungeons, and Raids, with a lot of enemies. It will surpass Dagger in those scenarios for Life Force generation.
I get you’re stubborn, but please just open your eyes and ears a bit.
What about making dagger be useful for melee reaper? we got trouble closing gaps right? why not make dagger have utility for gap closing? it has life force regen and you could make para.Everyone wants condi dagger which i can understand but what about reaper?
Everyone who likes reaper needs something to help reaper in pvp.
What about making dagger be useful for melee reaper? we got trouble closing gaps right? why not make dagger have utility for gap closing? it has life force regen and you could make para.Everyone wants condi dagger which i can understand but what about reaper?
Everyone who likes reaper needs something to help reaper in pvp.
Reaper can use greatsword, what about giving mobility to greatsword?
Fun fact: melee range happens in all game modes, even on condition builds. It’s true!
That’s right … We have a GS and a Scepter condi builds. So again, I’m seriously questioning where a melee condi weapon fits into EITHER of those builds … and even why the issues people express that a condi dagger would solve are not already solved with a Staff.
GS beats dagger in melee damage and LF regen; Scepter beats dagger in condition application. How does creating a marginally applicable weapon in any of those categories help either of those groups of condi users? What is that build look like and what is it used for?
You list the reasons this is desired. You can list 100 reasons this or anything else is desired; being desirable is less than compelling. The question is what problem are you trying to solve and why is the condi buffed dagger the BEST way to solve that. I think that solving ‘LF regen on condi’ builds is NOT best solved with a condi buffed dagger, simply because of how close Staff already is to doing that as well as being a meaningful alternative in either a Scepter or a GS condi build. It’s not even clear that a weapon buff approach is the best way to address that problem, so how anyone in this thread has nailed down “bleed on dagger AA” is beyond me.
So, your suggestion is that all Condi builds, INCLUDING SCOURGE use Reaper?
Greatsword and Scourge are mutually exclusive, or did you forget that? We’ve also heard rumors that Deathly Chill is going away from condition damage. Even forgetting Scourge, what happens when the third Elite Spec comes out? Are you still going to argue that they should use Greatsword for their life force generation?
On top of that, you pinned down the exact reason why Dagger in particular needs something different: “Greatsword beats Dagger in melee damage and life force generation.” Which means that Reapers never have any reason to equip mainhand dagger, because Greatsword is just strictly better. If you buff numbers on Dagger, then the reverse is true and nobody has a reason to equip Greatsword.
Only by adding something different to dagger can diversity actually occour.
What about making dagger be useful for melee reaper? we got trouble closing gaps right? why not make dagger have utility for gap closing? it has life force regen and you could make para.Everyone wants condi dagger which i can understand but what about reaper?
Everyone who likes reaper needs something to help reaper in pvp.
Reaper can use greatsword, what about giving mobility to greatsword?
but dagger could be useful for getting a stun or something.Besides:Why does it have to be condi? Could it be used for pet classes in some way?
What about making dagger be useful for melee reaper? we got trouble closing gaps right? why not make dagger have utility for gap closing? it has life force regen and you could make para.Everyone wants condi dagger which i can understand but what about reaper?
Everyone who likes reaper needs something to help reaper in pvp.
Reaper can use greatsword, what about giving mobility to greatsword?
but dagger could be useful for getting a stun or something.Besides:Why does it have to be condi? Could it be used for pet classes in some way?
For pets? Uhm, I don’t get the question but no necro’s weapon’s move or skill can afflict minions, only our DM’s traits can. Ranger is the class with pet empowering mechanics.
While for the condi part, MH dagger actually is a jack of some trades and master of none, a filler weapon that don’t excel on power damage, don’t have (yet) direct damaging condition, can heal for a good amount but only from 600 range (with a target and with a insane casting time), is situational at 101% even on his dedicated trait.. is only good for who don’t have access to reaper, that I’ve heard it should be our power dedicated e-spec. And while a power buff could make it better than GS, our Reaper’s elite weapon, a condi buff can’t.
And “Necro’s” stun are all related to chill, while dagger is all about blood.
I think it would be cool if mh dagger would get a bleed stack on the auto just to give it synergy with offhand dagger (kitten Anet for making mh dagger mainly power and offhand dagger mainly condi).
Sry but i have a weakness for d/d builds…
I think it would be cool if mh dagger would get a bleed stack on the auto just to give it synergy with offhand dagger (kitten Anet for making mh dagger mainly power and offhand dagger mainly condi).
Sry but i have a weakness for d/d builds…
It’d still be best for Scepter/Dagger, but double Dagger would be fun to mess around with