Guild Wars 2

Can we please get DS always as a Staff weapon kit? The rarity should scale of the player’s equipped weapon.

It makes no sense to do less dmg while holding Dagger and Axe in DS than while holding a Staff.

Yes please.

+1

Why would the weapon you were using before entering DS matter?

I think that 2 handers should get nerfed instead.

It was justified having higher damage because it can only use 1 sigil. Now, there is no reason to.

runeblade.7514:

I think that 2 handers should get nerfed instead.

It was justified having higher damage because it can only use 1 sigil. Now, there is no reason to.

Ehhh, I don’t know about that. If you look at the damage coefficients for the GS, it works out to be 10% less per/s than daggers, giving them both the same DPS.

They could just normalise them and adjust the base coefficients though.

And yes i agree. I would like DS/RS normalised to use two hander weapon strength. And make sure it uses ascended quality or whatever is equipped.

Not to sure if they will go through the effort to recode it from the spaghetti that was our downed state shroud. If they did it would be perfect because it would then proc weapon swaps like RS does.

so the weapon you have equipped before you enter shroud affects your damage? between staff and dagger which would be better?

Slashftw.6307:

so the weapon you have equipped before you enter shroud affects your damage? between staff and dagger which would be better?

It takes the stats from the weapon you have equipped but it only takes one of them depending on the skill used (I’m not sure if it use the dmg). And because a 2handed weapon has more stats than a 1handed or offhand you will be a bit more effective going into DS with a 2handed.

Edit: I was wrong. This is what I get from trusting people than doing my own research. Thanks for the update Spoj.

Slashftw.6307:

so the weapon you have equipped before you enter shroud affects your damage? between staff and dagger which would be better?

The weapon damage does yes. 2 Handed weapons give you more damage in shroud, as death shroud doesn’t take into account your offhand’s damage, only your mainhand. So if you’re wielding an axe+focus, you will deal less in DS than someone using a staff or GS.

I’m pretty sure the reason death shroud damage scales off of your weapons is because it’s using an archaic solution to PvE leveling scaling issues. In reality DS damage should only be determined by your level and the respective stats for the damage type.

I think I remember someone saying RS doesn’t have this issue, only base deathshroud does. Since RS procs weapon swap sigils (when leaving RS to the weapon with the on-swap sigil) while regular DS doesn’t, I’d assume for RS the game treats it like you’re wielding a new max stat 2 handed weapon, which would explain why it works differently for both damage and proccing on-swap sigils when you leave RS.

DS should do this as well, it would be a welcome quality of life change.

wow i had no idea about this, just got my necro to 80 a few days ago. Thanks for the info striker and DT, gonna let my guildies now when i’m done with classes.

Reaper shroud is a hammer. Swapping to reaper shroud counts as swapping to a hammer.

Death Shroud counts as a transform, but it follows different rules than other transforms.

In any case, hopefully we’ll get the same treatment for both RS and DS. It will help us pick sigils for our weapons (right now, swap sigils are near worthless in DS but fully useful in RS).

striker.3704:

Slashftw.6307:

so the weapon you have equipped before you enter shroud affects your damage? between staff and dagger which would be better?

The weapon damage does yes. 2 Handed weapons give you more damage in shroud, as death shroud doesn’t take into account your offhand’s damage, only your mainhand. So if you’re wielding an axe+focus, you will deal less in DS than someone using a staff or GS.

I’m pretty sure the reason death shroud damage scales off of your weapons is because it’s using an archaic solution to PvE leveling scaling issues. In reality DS damage should only be determined by your level and the respective stats for the damage type.

I think I remember someone saying RS doesn’t have this issue, only base deathshroud does. Since RS procs weapon swap sigils (when leaving RS to the weapon with the on-swap sigil) while regular DS doesn’t, I’d assume for RS the game treats it like you’re wielding a new max stat 2 handed weapon, which would explain why it works differently for both damage and proccing on-swap sigils when you leave RS.

DS should do this as well, it would be a welcome quality of life change.

The damage for skills 1-3 are calculated from your mainland damage and 4-5 from your offhand damage. Tooltip is based off of average weapon damage. Staff has 10% more than daggers and 22% more than horns and foci.

The reason it scales off of equipped weapon damage is because they haven’t been bothered to tecode it to do so. It was originally a downed state, then an active state, and finally to what we have after further functionality got removed and returned as spectral walk.

It’s damage cannot just be based off of level and stats because all "white " damage in game requires a weapon damage value. Even utility skills that cause damage use their own specific weapon damage depending on skill. Rather than it being solely level based the game will equip an item rarity and level appropriate weapon. This is why RS, kits and transformations etc proc on swap sigils.

RS is coded more akin to transformations and DS more like it just pastes over your current stuff. You used to be able to weapon seap in shroud and it had its own unique interface waaay back.

Yeah DS should be like RS in that regard. I want my on swap sigil working when i enter or leave DS.

Muchacho.2390:

Yeah DS should be like RS in that regard. I want my on swap sigil working when i enter or leave DS.

Please no, that just creates icd conflicts. And RS should be changed to not trigger weapon swap sigils either.

flow.6043:

Muchacho.2390:

Yeah DS should be like RS in that regard. I want my on swap sigil working when i enter or leave DS.

Please no, that just creates icd conflicts. And RS should be changed to not trigger weapon swap sigils either.

The icd conflicts you talk about are not as bad as you make them be. Eles, engies and fast hand warriors deal with those just fine.

DTATL.9641:

Slashftw.6307:

so the weapon you have equipped before you enter shroud affects your damage? between staff and dagger which would be better?

It takes the stats from the weapon you have equipped but it doesn’t add the offhand (I’m not sure if it use the dmg). And because a 2handed weapon has more stats than a 1handed you will be a bit more effective going into DS with a 2handed.

This is incorrect. The the only difference is the mainhand average weapon strength. The full stats are equal as it uses the stats you have equipped. But depending which weapon you have out changes your weapon strength range. Two handers have an average weapon strength 10% higher than one handers. So theres a 10% difference.

I have no idea why offhands have weird weapon strengths because they dont seem to be used in any calculation unless you have no mainhand equipped (no reason you would ever be in this situation unless you got stuck incombat while changing weapons). Think of offhands as a slot to make sure you have equal stats to two hander sets.

Proccing weapon swaps on RS was the best thing ever. It makes things flow far better, otherwise using Shroud completely interferes with your ICDs in the opposite way, you don’t have the chance to proc them nearly enough.

I think its a rather split opinion. I was always against shroud procing swaps. Then when i tried it i actually liked it. But i know subli from my guild still doesnt like it. I can live with either way. But i do think DS and RS need to work consistently.

I have no idea why offhands have weird weapon strengths because they dont seem to be used in any calculation unless you have no mainhand equipped (no reason you would ever be in this situation unless you got stuck incombat while changing weapons). Think of offhands as a slot to make sure you have equal stats to two hander sets.

You are wrong. Skill #4 and 5 in DS use off hand weapon damage when you have main-hand/offhand. Check the tooltip between #4 and #5 when using a exotic dagger and exotic focus. The states are equal only the weapon damage is different. Main-Hand ( axe, dagger, sceptar, mace, pistol and sword )have about 11% more average weapon damage that Off-Hand weapons (focus, torch, shield, warhorn). I literally just did this test so its not wrong. Got 1899/1710 on lifetransfer dagger/focus in pvp with ammy and power rune which is ~11% which is the difference in strength between Main-Hand weapons and Off-Hand weapons. No i didnt have might or any other modifier to disrupt it.

Again most Terrestrial weapons ( hammer, great sword, staff) have 10% higher average weapon damage than Mainhand weapons and 22% more than Off-Hand weapons. As a side note longbow and shortbow are 5/16% and rifle is 15/27% respectively over Mh/Oh weapons.

On topic. Shroud would need to recoded i believe to function like RS not sure how much effort they would want to put into it.

Sigmoid.7082:

I have no idea why offhands have weird weapon strengths because they dont seem to be used in any calculation unless you have no mainhand equipped (no reason you would ever be in this situation unless you got stuck incombat while changing weapons). Think of offhands as a slot to make sure you have equal stats to two hander sets.

You are wrong. Skill #4 and 5 in DS use off hand weapon damage when you have main-hand/offhand. Check the tooltip between #4 and #5 when using a exotic dagger and exotic focus. The states are equal only the weapon damage is different. Main-Hand ( axe, dagger, sceptar, mace, pistol and sword )have about 11% more average weapon damage that Off-Hand weapons (focus, torch, shield, warhorn). I literally just did this test so its not wrong. Got 1899/1710 on lifetransfer dagger/focus in pvp with ammy and power rune which is ~11% which is the difference in strength between Main-Hand weapons and Off-Hand weapons. No i didnt have might or any other modifier to disrupt it.

I couldnt understand what you meant for a minute. So i tested it myself. Quickest way was to just check the life transfer tooltip between staff and d/f (was exactly 20% difference which is the difference between offhand and twohander weapon strength). This is some odd interaction that i was not aware of. Its been pretty common practice to just always assume weapon strength is the mainhand value for all skills.

I suppose it doesnt really matter too much in theorycrafting calculations because the coef is calculated from the tooltip and weapon power. So if you use the wrong value you just get an appropriately wrong coeff. But the multiplication of the two is the same. But it is relevant in picking an appropriate weapon for shroud builds. So thanks for bringing it up. :P

DS #4 and #5 skills always used offhand damage for their calculation. DS #4 and #5 will do the best damage in this order:
Staff>Dagger in offhand slot>Focus/Horn

Regardless DS would have to have some drastic changes behind the scenes to work like RS does. RS was designed so much better over all because it functions more like an engi kit or a transformation.

Sigmoid.7082:

I have no idea why offhands have weird weapon strengths because they dont seem to be used in any calculation unless you have no mainhand equipped (no reason you would ever be in this situation unless you got stuck incombat while changing weapons). Think of offhands as a slot to make sure you have equal stats to two hander sets.

On topic. Shroud would need to recoded i believe to function like RS not sure how much effort they would want to put into it.

A lot of what’s been happening with the release of HoT has been normalization to set up the ground works for future expansions and elite specializations. If this is their goal, than making RS and DS work the same would go perfectly in line with this mind set, especially if future elite specializations for the necromancer use different shrouds as well (which changing shroud based traits to only say “shroud” instead of “death shroud” implies).

Also I agree with bawb, proccing sigils on shroud exit is a lot better than not proccing it at all, wasting a potential cooldown that could be used. Shroud is basically a third weapon set anyways in functionality, so it honestly makes sense in a way.

striker.3704:

Sigmoid.7082:

I have no idea why offhands have weird weapon strengths because they dont seem to be used in any calculation unless you have no mainhand equipped (no reason you would ever be in this situation unless you got stuck incombat while changing weapons). Think of offhands as a slot to make sure you have equal stats to two hander sets.

On topic. Shroud would need to recoded i believe to function like RS not sure how much effort they would want to put into it.

A lot of what’s been happening with the release of HoT has been normalization to set up the ground works for future expansions and elite specializations. If this is their goal, than making RS and DS work the same would go perfectly in line with this mind set, especially if future elite specializations for the necromancer use different shrouds as well (which changing shroud based traits to only say “shroud” instead of “death shroud” implies).

Also I agree with bawb, proccing sigils on shroud exit is a lot better than not proccing it at all, wasting a potential cooldown that could be used. Shroud is basically a third weapon set anyways in functionality, so it honestly makes sense in a way.

It should be something they do but it may not be something that is done for a while depending on how much time and resources it would take and what else may take precedence over it. A lot of changes that as players we see as simple can be a mountain load of work to do behind the scenes.

Sigmoid.7082:

It should be something they do but it may not be something that is done for a while depending on how much time and resources it would take and what else may take precedence over it. A lot of changes that as players we see as simple can be a mountain load of work to do behind the scenes.

That is very true. A great example is transformations killing minions. Back early on in the games life they said transformations killing minions was an issue they wanted to fix, but didn’t have the coding for it, something about breaking the minion chain skills. We didn’t hear anything else about it for like 2 years. Now they have the technology and implemented it, at least for our own transformations (moa when pls).

I’ve got a little bit of hope for them being able to do something like this. With the most recent changes we’ve seen between BWEs, skill functionalities, animations, and mechanics, they seem to have a larger team and resources they can utilize right now for release, though release is only a little more than a week away. They could potentially pull it off by drawing from RS coding, especially since it utilizes the same trait systems as DS, indication similar coding functionality.

Muchacho.2390:

The icd conflicts you talk about are not as bad as you make them be. Eles, engies and fast hand warriors deal with those just fine.

Yes, they are that bad, and they are among the reasons why I don’t use swap sigils on those classes.

spoj.9672:

I think its a rather split opinion. I was always against shroud procing swaps. Then when i tried it i actually liked it. But i know subli from my guild still doesnt like it. I can live with either way. But i do think DS and RS need to work consistently.

I agree, there needs to be consistency.
So if I had to choose between both Shrouds consistently producing icd conflicts or not, then that’s a total no-brainer: no weapon swap on Shroud, please and thank you.

Bhawb.7408:

Proccing weapon swaps on RS was the best thing ever. It makes things flow far better, otherwise using Shroud completely interferes with your ICDs in the opposite way, you don’t have the chance to proc them nearly enough.

If you want higher uptime on sigil procs you should pick a crit sigil. Almost every swap sigil has a crit counterpart and vice versa. So the only reason you should want to pick a swap sigil is because you’d rather sacrifice uptime for being able to reliably choose a specific time to trigger them: on swap. Controlled timing > passive proc. Conflicting icds would defeat that purpose entirely.
So in regards to swapping to RS being “the best thing ever”, no, it’s not.
It doesn’t flow (heh…) better at all, quite the contrary. For someone who uses swap sigils for the specific purpose of having them trigger on weapon swap, and weapon swap only, changing Shroud to proc them as well would be the worst thing to ever happen to my build. Think I’m exaggerating? Nope, that would litterally be the biggest nerf to my build since game release and I would probably stop playing it.

Right, let me just pick up that awesome crit sigil in my build that has absolutely no extra crit chance…

Isn’t your MM build using leeching and renewal, which wouldn’t heal through Shroud anyway?

flow.6043:

Isn’t your MM build using leeching and renewal, which wouldn’t heal through Shroud anyway?

That’s one of the builds yeah, but not the only one I bring swap sigils on that doesn’t want crit sigils, and yes it wouldn’t heal. But I don’t really care if it doesn’t heal me, Leeching is taken for damage and renewal is to heal the minions. I aim to proc them basically on CD, so RS can be used to overcome an awkward weapon situation, or I go into RS and time myself so I stay in for around 9-10 seconds and then can proc my swap on exit too, which would affect me.

I actually like this mechanism, makes the play a little more intricate. But they got rid of it for RS, so I see no raeson they should work differently, just make it standard use a 2hander stats for it.

Bhawb.7408:

flow.6043:

Isn’t your MM build using leeching and renewal, which wouldn’t heal through Shroud anyway?

That’s one of the builds yeah, but not the only one I bring swap sigils on that doesn’t want crit sigils, and yes it wouldn’t heal. But I don’t really care if it doesn’t heal me, Leeching is taken for damage and renewal is to heal the minions. I aim to proc them basically on CD, so RS can be used to overcome an awkward weapon situation

Well, I was mostly making a point about swap vs crit in general, so you must understand that a niche build like your minion reaper has rather little weight in the matter. Also, you could just pick Decimate Defenses and take come crit sigils instead.

Bhawb.7408:

or I go into RS and time myself so I stay in for around 9-10 seconds and then can proc my swap on exit too, which would affect me.

Even if you were actually able to time yourself with that accuracy in the heat of any battle, in a fight against another player you will never have a fixed Shroud schedule, like in and out every 10 seconds. The situation and your opponents dictate the time you enter and leave, and that will definitely never sync up with your 9-10 sec sigil proc rhythm.

Not having high crit isn’t “niche”, nor is MM niche in any sense. And as an example, Blood vs Leeching requires you to be able to proc Blood on CD for it to be as effective as Leeching on CD (which you can do very easily, since RS gives you a way to overcome weapon CDs to proc onswap). The difference isn’t strength, but method of proccing.

And still, even if I screw up my on-swap rotation, I still have weapon swap. Go into shroud (proc), leave after 5s (no proc), wait 5s then swap weapons. I have lost nothing compared to just using normal swaps, in fact I’ve gained flexibility in how I decide to swap, since now I’m capable of proccing sigils and staying on the same weapon set after RS.

I would like to change stats in Shroud with a weapon swap. Can I have it, please, a swap between Berserker and Cleric?

Bhawb.7408:

Not having high crit isn’t “niche”, nor is MM niche in any sense.

Debatable.

Bhawb.7408:

Blood vs Leeching requires you to be able to proc Blood on CD for it to be as effective as Leeching on CD
…
even if I screw up my on-swap rotation, I still have weapon swap. Go into shroud (proc), leave after 5s (no proc), wait 5s then swap weapons. I have lost nothing compared to just using normal swaps, in fact I’ve gained flexibility in how I decide to swap, since now I’m capable of proccing sigils and staying on the same weapon set after RS.

Like I said, cutting your swap intervals down to 5 sec instead of 10 sec is wishful thinking. You can’t pick your in/out Shroud times beforehand, the fight will dictate when and for how long you have to be in Shroud. Therefore you will never surpass the net damage of Blood with Leeching even on a build with low crit chance.
The only class where you could argue that it would be about the same is engi because they don’t have any cooldown on “weapon” swapping at all. But in case of necro, overlapping two 10 sec cd cycles creates nothing but chaos, it turns skillful play into yet another passive proc. And trying to make that seem good because it allows some builds to heal their minions more often is ridiculous.

Not to sure this has been mentioned but because RS procs weapon swap sigils it allows you to not have to double up on some or swap weapons to be able to benefit from the effect. You an technically take 4 different ones and always proc one of the two sets every 10s.

Xae Isareth.1364:

runeblade.7514:

I think that 2 handers should get nerfed instead.

It was justified having higher damage because it can only use 1 sigil. Now, there is no reason to.

Ehhh, I don’t know about that. If you look at the damage coefficients for the GS, it works out to be 10% less per/s than daggers, giving them both the same DPS.

Buff the Reaper GS skills and nerf GS stats.

runeblade.7514:

Xae Isareth.1364:

runeblade.7514:

I think that 2 handers should get nerfed instead.

It was justified having higher damage because it can only use 1 sigil. Now, there is no reason to.

Ehhh, I don’t know about that. If you look at the damage coefficients for the GS, it works out to be 10% less per/s than daggers, giving them both the same DPS.

Buff the Reaper GS skills and nerf GS stats.

2h weapons are balanced because most of them have coeffs lower than 1h weapons anyways. Your proposed change would be way to much effort to be realistically considered and option for anything. Also considering the dps on the autos are equal i dont see a point.

Fun fact – while wielding dagger/offhand killing things with DS4 actually counts for weapon master achievement for the said offhand. Since its relatively low cooldown and decent AE damage, it’s great for achievement farming for focus/wh.

That’s probably the only good thing I found about not having DS weapon calculations using 2 hander base.

Zania.8461:

Fun fact – while wielding dagger/offhand killing things with DS4 actually counts for weapon master achievement for the said offhand. Since its relatively low cooldown and decent AE damage, it’s great for achievement farming for focus/wh.

That’s probably the only good thing I found about not having DS weapon calculations using 2 hander base.

Yeah but with Reaper’s Shroud you can farm Hammer achievements without even having a hammer.