Guild Wars 2

That and get rid of the delays, I think that would solve everyone’s AI issues

As seen in “Minion AI Explained” http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=riyMsBRxXHs these guys played with the minions extensively to try to find out a way that works around the problems we all see but cant explain.

I just want them to be consistent such that they will not frequently choose not to help me.

p.s. And let Flesh Golem swim again!

I remember times when minions started attacking right after I used any skill on enemy, even if it was 2000 range away from me, 1# dagger attack made them rush on it. No idea why thet changed it.

Danama.1462:

p.s. And let Flesh Golem swim again!

What? When was Flesh Golem be able to swim???

No. I like being able to actually pull things when I have minions out. But please do get rid of the stupid glitches in their aggro that happen (for whatever reason).

Mathog.3157:

Danama.1462:

p.s. And let Flesh Golem swim again!

What? When was Flesh Golem be able to swim???

Back in BWE #1.

I wouldn’t call it swimming though. They didn’t have swimming animations, more like falling animations. The only reason I can think of why Flesh Golem is unable to be used underwater is because they don’t want to spend any resources giving the Flesh Golem swimming animations.

BobJoeXXI.2493:

Mathog.3157:

Danama.1462:

p.s. And let Flesh Golem swim again!

What? When was Flesh Golem be able to swim???

Back in BWE #1.

I wouldn’t call it swimming though. They didn’t have swimming animations, more like falling animations. The only reason I can think of why Flesh Golem is unable to be used underwater is because they don’t want to spend any resources giving the Flesh Golem swimming animations.

“they have different teams for everything you know” I think I have heard that on these forums too many times….

so whats the kittening swim animation team been doing for the last 7 kittening months?

Bhawb.7408:

No. I like being able to actually pull things when I have minions out. But please do get rid of the stupid glitches in their aggro that happen (for whatever reason).

thanks bawb the rest of us can have kittenty unresponsive AI so you can “pull” things

good luck with all your “pullin” btw

The pets need to attack on key press not when an attack hits.

Bhawb.7408:

No. I like being able to actually pull things when I have minions out. But please do get rid of the stupid glitches in their aggro that happen (for whatever reason).

Yes, it would solve in part that crap called minion AI.
Two auto attack delay its not enough to pull things anyway

its almost like people who come on the forums have no idea how a business works. They have resources. They allocate resources to the place where it will give them the best product. Allocating animators to a minion: probably not that important, considering how amazing the animations on the new weapons are.

Flesh Golem not being available underwater is not that big of a deal. A very, very small part of the game is actually underwater.

@Vicious, its possible to not sit there jamming 1111111111111 while pulling. Auto once, let the mob get close, continue attacking.

Dredlord.8076:

The pets need to attack on key press not when an attack hits.

dagger necros would really appreciate this.

edit: let me add something

Axe aa: crap damage almost melee range.
Staff aa: crap damage if actually hit your target
Scepter aa: good aa but you usually dont bring minions on a condi build.
Dagger aa: good damage no range. so you cant pulls minions.

Minions should attack your target on ANY of your 5 weapon skills. This mean you can put down all your marks, without a target, and your minions wont go anywhere. Use Staff #2 to pull all the mobs you want. At the same time you can send your minions to the first line of combat, as common sense dictates.

All this from a PVP POV. PVE its not that hard to complain on minions AI

Bhawb.7408:

No. I like being able to actually pull things when I have minions out.

Bhawb.7408:

@Vicious, its possible to not sit there jamming 1111111111111 while pulling. Auto once, let the mob get close, continue attacking.

If you want to pull and have minions not agro then wait to spawn your minions until the enemies are where you want them. Don’t be selfish and tell us all to concede to the horrible AI the minions have. Not everyone shares your masochistic view of the AI and bugs for Necromancer. I personally want the bugs and AI to be fixed and not remain so I can “pull.”

Their delay is not a bug. It is programmed in that they take 2 auto attacks or they take 1 auto + some delay. They have a pull programmed into their aggro.

And unless you are suggesting its a good idea to de-summon ALL your minions between fights, that just isn’t possible; and de-summoning is just… lol.

Bhawb.7408:

Their delay is not a bug.

If you took the time to read my post, I stated that it was minion AI.

Bhawb.7408:

It is programmed in that they take 2 auto attacks or they take 1 auto + some delay. They have a pull programmed into their aggro.

I have a level 80 Ranger. Whilst pet abilities could have a touch up on responsiveness, the auto attack delay is spot on – what the minions for the Necromancer should be. An auto attack delay is horrible AI which should not exist. It is similar to the delay in activating pet abilities.

Bhawb.7408:

And unless you are suggesting its a good idea to de-summon ALL your minions between fights, that just isn’t possible; and de-summoning is just… lol.

I was suggesting that you de-summon your minions only to summon them when you wanted. I did not, however, say it was a good idea. You did.

Even though minions are significantly better off then they were at launch, the state the minions are in is atrocious. Telling others to concede to horrible minion AI like you did in this post is a cancerous attitude in the progress to fixing minion AI or any Necromancer bugs for that matter.

BobJoeXXI.2493:

Bhawb.7408:

Their delay is not a bug.

If you took the time to read my post, I stated that it was minion AI.

I completely agree they need to fix the bugs in minion AI. But there is a programmed delayed response in their programming. I’ve done the testing, I was one of the people in the very video OP linked; it is a programmed delay, not a bug in the AI.

Bhawb.7408:

it is a programmed delay, not a bug in the AI.

Programmed or not, delayed AI is horrible AI. I’ve already said this and I’ve already conveyed that I said it wasn’t a bug. Do you not read my posts?

It took all of 5 minutes in game right now before auto attacking with the scepter failed to get minions to attack on the the 2nd hit. 5-6 hits later they start. This is on an open plane with no obstructions and using no other skills. Multiple mobs in a row like this. Only swapping weapons then swapping back fixed it. I’ve had this problem with dagger before too. I do not know what causes it to bug, but bug it does, and fairly often.

Staff 1 seems to never follow the 2 attack rule. It’s always the delay rule. Marks usually cause immediate attack, but again, within 5 minutes I ran into the case where marks would no longer trigger agro just like the scepter bug.

I’m sorry, they need to just get rid of all these delays and all the associated bugs. They should immediately attack anything I’ve hit with any skill, preferring the one I am targeting if applicable Continue to leash (stop attacking and come back to you) at 2500-3000 range. “Pulling” is a sorry excuse. It’s just a very small percentage of cases where it might cause you to lose minions. Oh no! They’re disposable. If you’re by yourself, MM necro is already incredibly strong solo pve. If you’re doing group content, someone else can pull. Compare that very specific isolated case to you know, pretty much every other situation where you don’t want to have to open up with 2 auto attacks nor wait ~6 seconds. Just watch the first kitten fight, it’s pathetic: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIEt3jQn55U

As for pets and water, I agree that it isn’t a big deal that they aren’t available underwater, and don’t think it’s worth ANet’s man-hours to make all the animations they’d need. However, despawning pets should NOT trigger the cooldown. Only dying pets should. It’s one thing to have to resummon them after stepping in a puddle. It’s a whole different level of stupid to have them be unavailable for 40-60 seconds as well. Until that changes, I’ll avoid water like it was lava on my necro.

One last thing which no one has mentioned:

• Summoned creatures and pets can no longer draw aggro from enemies that have not already aggroed on their master.

Anyone notice that that april 30 patch note doesn’t apply to necro minions? Really kitten es me off, especially since our minions love to run ahead 500 some range after you stop.

In fact, the correct AI is already in the game. If you want to see it for yourself, take a guardian to the heart of the mists, equip a staff and the sword spirit weapon. Guardian staff 1 is a 5 target aoe, and staff 2 is a piercing projectile. Both cause the sword to immediately attack the golem you have targeted, no matter how many you hit. Amazingly, when you target something else and cast staff 1 again, the sword immediately switches targets to that exact one.

Or… Or… They COULD just give us a F2 (Minions Attack) F3 (Minions Yield) and a Button for Passive (Avoid Combat) and Guard (Attack when master is hit or attacks) like ranger but ONLY show up when you have minions on your Utility bar and summoned… Just throwing that out there.

Undertow.2389:

In fact, the correct AI is already in the game.

Mmm yes, Ranger pets don’t seem to have near our problems dishing out damage, and not being braindead. Similar Mesmer illusions, you notice they are quick and unerringly zero in on targets. Are Necro minions being mush upstairs intended?

I don’t know but I could never stand any A.I companions in any games that are not responsive or buggy. Unpredictability gets you killed in fights, when you can’t depend on a creature to do what its supposed to.

PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCMENT

Stop equating necromancer minion AI to mesmer illusion AI!

Mesmer illusions have minimal amounts of health and are capable of attacking the one target they were cast on. Necromancer minions are NPC allies with moderate amounts of health that persist between fights and must switch targets within combat.

I honestly like the response time on minions. Place 2-3 marks on the ground, get a few auto attacks in with staff, by the time they hit the marks the minions swarm in and I can start the combat 5 ft away from me rather than 50.

If they changed it, the position of the fight would be based around where the minion intercepted the target rather than where I preferred … but it’s not a big deal.

Softspoken.2410:

PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCMENT

Stop equating necromancer minion AI to mesmer illusion AI!

Mesmer illusions have minimal amounts of health and are capable of attacking the one target they were cast on. Necromancer minions are NPC allies with moderate amounts of health that persist between fights and must switch targets within combat.

Let me educate you. AI is artificial intelligence. The context it is being used here is how the npc in the game interacts to various situations in the world. In this thread we’re discussing how horrible the AI is for minions. Mesmers do not have any issues with such because as soon as illusions are brought into the world they immediately start attacking the target. AI has no bearing on health.

If you’re arguing that Necromancers minions are better than Mesmers illusions then go make a new thread about that because that isn’t the topic here.

Illusion AI is incredibly limited and simplistic. They spawn in, attack their target, and go away. If the target dies, they die. Want to switch targets? Too bad, they don’t do that, you’ll need to spawn in new ones.

His point is that the AI Mesmer’s are using is much more limited than minion AI, and as such very little room to mess up. Basically, comparing minions to illusions is void, there is very little to compare besides them both being entities spawned into the environment via skills.

Bhawb.7408:

Illusion AI is incredibly limited and simplistic.

They aren’t meant to be complex, Bhawb. They designed to and act just as I said.

Mesmers do not have any issues with such because as soon as illusions are brought into the world they immediately start attacking the target.

“Mesmers create illusions, replicas of themselves that attack their foes. Illusions are directed at a specific target and exist as long as that target is alive, or until they are destroyed.”

Meanwhile…

“Necromancers summon undead minions to attack foes and do their bidding.”

Minions sure seem to have a hard time attacking foes and not do my bidding.

If Bhawb and Softspoken want to improve on Mesmer’s illusions, the Necro forums aren’t the place.

BobJoeXXI.2493:

If Bhawb and Softspoken want to improve on Mesmer’s illusions, the Necro forums aren’t the place.

I feel like there’s a fundamental misunderstanding of why I posted. This post, immediately above my original one:

Undertow.2389:

Undertow.2389:

In fact, the correct AI is already in the game.

Mmm yes, Ranger pets don’t seem to have near our problems dishing out damage, and not being braindead. Similar Mesmer illusions, you notice they are quick and unerringly zero in on targets. Are Necro minions being mush upstairs intended?

I don’t know but I could never stand any A.I companions in any games that are not responsive or buggy. Unpredictability gets you killed in fights, when you can’t depend on a creature to do what its supposed to.

Brought up an oft-repeated sentiment of “The AI is already there on other classes why not minions?”. It bothers me, because people are ignoring reasons that minion AI not only is different, but must be different from Ranger pets and illusions. So I felt compelled to post.

Edit:

AI has no bearing on health.

No, but health has a bearing on the role of the summon, and as such how its AI is designed and coded.

If you want to tell me to get back on topic, feel free! Just start talking about the topic and I’ll follow that conversational thread.

That Necro minions are more complex than Illusions is true, but why is it relevant. One does its job and one frequently doesn’t, which is the point of the comparison. Is it suppose to be an excuse for shoddy A.I because it shouldn’t be. I don’t want to get into other games, but suffice to say other games are out there where pets and minions perform very reliably and less bug ridden than this one.

It has a lot to do with it. It is the nature of coding (and things in general) to have a much higher propensity to have fault the more complex they are. Illusion AI is very simple, they attack a target until they expire, or the target is invalid. Necromancer minions need more complexity than that, they need to acquire a target, and do so in ways that make sense. This means multiple sets of aggro in differing tiers that override each other. It means pathing in such a way as to be able to carry out aggro. It means being able to seamlessly swap targets while in combat.

There is actually a lot of variance when it comes to minion AI, whereas mesmer Illusions aren’t much more than auto casting skills with HP bars. And that variance leads to many ways to mess up.

As for other games, I hate to break it to you, but this isn’t another game. ANet isn’t known for their great AI skills, in fact current AI is a step up from GW1. This isn’t an excuse, they should have done better, but its simply reality.

Pendragon.8735:

Mmm yes, Ranger pets don’t seem to have near our problems dishing out damage, and not being braindead.

That’s because the first thing everyone will tell you when you ask how to play a Ranger is to put your pets on Manual and leave them there. Ranger pet AI is actually pretty bad but they can get mostly around it by telling the pet what to do all the time. Even then, pets have a hard time landing hits on moving targets; you need to hit your target with some sort of control effect a lot of the time for your pet to successfully start hitting them.

Pendragon.8735:

Similar Mesmer illusions, you notice they are quick and unerringly zero in on targets.

Because again, you’re telling them exactly what to do.

Minion AI absolutely needs work but the Necro doesn’t have especially bad minion AI. We just don’t have manual controls which makes the bad AI stick out more.

Softspoken.2410:

Brought up an oft-repeated sentiment of “The AI is already there on other classes why not minions?”. It bothers me, because people are ignoring reasons that minion AI not only is different, but must be different from Ranger pets and illusions. So I felt compelled to post.

Absolutely. Rangers are meant to have the most control in dealing with their pet. Their pet is supposed to be an extension of themselves. It’s their class feature. I’m not advocating taking that uniqueness away from the Ranger.

However, look at where minions are on the spectrum. Mesmers have the most simple AI with their illusions where it’s summon and attack then die. Rangers have smooth response and command of their pet and the pet has a wide range of features and functions.

Necromancer’s minions is the kitten child of the two with conflicting niches. Minions have horrible, unresponsive AI yet need to fulfill the role similar to that of the Ranger’s pet. Minions are obviously meant to be disposable since ANet refuses to give all of them regeneration after combat, but they are also supposed to maintain continuous fighting like the Ranger’s pet.

Softspoken.2410:

No, but health has a bearing on the role of the summon, and as such how its AI is designed and coded.

You’re wrong. Health has no bearing on AI. Educate yourself on what AI is. It sounds like your confusing AI with functionality. Think about it: would increasing the health of the minions improve their AI? If that were the case, some Ranger’s pets would be smarter than others.

Softspoken.2410:

If you want to tell me to get back on topic, feel free! Just start talking about the topic and I’ll follow that conversational thread.

Please do. As I stated, you’re confusing yourself and are going off topic.

BobJoeXXI.2493:

You’re wrong. Health has no bearing on AI.

He’s not saying there’s a direct relationship between health and AI. He’s saying the intended role of a summon will dictate both that summon’s health and that summon’s AI requirements.

Mesmer Illusions are pretty much just meant to attack once and die, so they get simple AI and low health pools. Necro minions are supposed to be disposable, but they’re much less so than Mesmer Illusions. Consequently, they get more HP and need more complex AI, which is harder to get right, which means it’s more likely for ANet to screw up with it.

It amazes me how much you can both read and not read what I’m saying.

BobJoeXXI.2493:

Softspoken.2410:

Brought up an oft-repeated sentiment of “The AI is already there on other classes why not minions?”. It bothers me, because people are ignoring reasons that minion AI not only is different, but must be different from Ranger pets and illusions. So I felt compelled to post.

Minions have horrible, unresponsive AI yet need to fulfill the role similar to that of the Ranger’s pet. Minions are obviously meant to be disposable since ANet refuses to give all of them regeneration after combat, but they are also supposed to maintain continuous fighting like the Ranger’s pet.

I very much agree here, in that minions seem conflicted about what they’re supposed to be. I kind of wish every minion skill resulted in the death of the minion (and was upgraded appropriately) just for thematic solidarity, but that would interfere a lot with what minions are currently used for.

BobJoeXXI.2493:

Softspoken.2410:

No, but health has a bearing on the role of the summon, and as such how its AI is designed and coded.

You’re wrong. Health has no bearing on AI. Educate yourself on what AI is. It sounds like your confusing AI with functionality. Think about it: would increasing the health of the minions improve their AI? If that were the case, some Ranger’s pets would be smarter than others.

I’ll restate this as explicitly possible.

You are correct, AI doesn’t determine the health of the summon. What I was getting at is the functionality or role of a summon. I think that health / lifetime is a very important characteristic that informs the player of their designed role, and whatever that designed role has probably determined how the developer codes the behavior of the AI.

The reason I mentioned health totals in the first place was to imply what that said about the roles of the two profession summons, while still being referring to something empirical about them.

BobJoeXXI.2493:

Softspoken.2410:

If you want to tell me to get back on topic, feel free! Just start talking about the topic and I’ll follow that conversational thread.

Please do. As I stated, you’re confusing yourself and are going off topic.

I personally would not prefer minions switching target on the first attack on each target. I’m worried that this behavior couldn’t be properly implemented in fights against multiple opponents: if a minion is no longer allowed to ignore any hits, it has to switch targets constantly, which may mean re-acquiring pathing or position every time you hit a target you’re not actually focusing on. From there you can run into minions dashing back and forth between targets if a necrotic grasp or mark goes awry, and not doing any attacking at all if melee.

Or say you use a large AoE attack but your opponent dodges or becomes invulnerable, such that the target you ‘hit’ was a secondary attacker. I’d rather the minion wait out the dodge / invulnerability period and stick to the mark than switch to something I’m leaving for later.

Basically, I like that minions take a bit of cajoling to switch targets in combat.

Edit – Quote names got really messed up. Should be fixed now.

@Softspoken, in fact that is exactly what minions do right now, or very close to it. Marks will acquire aggro, and swap it once (I believe, its been a while since my testing), but after that its up to single target attacks. Certain AoE also doesn’t work, likely because of that same confusion. In fact, if you go through and actually look at the logic they have used to code their minions (through tests), what they have done is, in theory, perfect.

The singular problem with their AI is that it has errors, for whatever reason, and as such looks quite messy. If they could tighten that up so there were no errors, you could see a very high degree of control from good MMs, short of what Rangers can accomplish, but not by a lot.

im not 100% sure on this but i believe minion behavior is zone based as quiet a few lowbie zones my minions react instantly yet i move to higher zones and they stand around like spare kittens at a wedding worth a bit more testing maybe.

I’ll look into that. One thing to note is that minions definitely have pathing issues. WvW is notorious for bad pathing, and that + general lag they will spend ages not doing anything sometimes.

Minions switch on the first mark huh? Not sure I like that, but seeing as I didn’t know about it I can’t really complain.

Also, some of the best (worst?) Minions That Don’t Do Anything videos that I remember came out of the tidal pools / beaches of Southsun. (The northern parts, I think.) I always wondered if all the ankle-deep water messed with the Flesh Golem’s head, since deep water is instant death for it.

I’ll have to go through and test it again, its been a while and I wanted to test their attack speeds anyway. I know for sure that marks will acquire aggro, but if I do remember correctly they can also change aggro under certain situations. I’ll test to see what the conditions are, but you can always staff auto to “override” the mark’s aggro.

what attack you use has no bearing on minions attacks i know it might seem like that sometimes but its not, quiet often im left with 2-4 on cd and 1 being spammed and minions just stand around then i can switch weapons and do the same and then mob dies and minion is all kitten lets go!

also something else ive noticed is when im attacking minions are “stuck” in follow mode they refuse to do anything but “follow” then sometimes they will remember there meant to attack, when there stuck in follow mode i can use minion attacks they will fire off with 100% success rate, then the minion will return to following like some kitten wammo from gw1

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/Pet-Control-Window/first#post2072837

If you really care about the necromancer class, comment on this thread about having a box to control your pets better.