Guild Wars 2

We don’t have a reflect, we don’t have a (reliable) blast finisher ,we can’t blind (reliably), we can’t might stack (for the party), we have literally no mobility (I mean to get us somewhere[dark traversal needs an enemy, that does not count]) and we cannot group support if the enemy moves about 5 feet (talking about wells here) …. we are the lowest tier in pvp, in pve and in dungeons …

Even the upcoming Reaper does not seem to mitigate any of those problems …
so can you please explain to me why ArenaNet does not show the Necromancer some love? What is the reasoning behind all of this?

PS: I realise the changes to the trait system helped, but they did not change our position in the meta … or am I overlooking something?

Reaper is actually fixing a few of our problems, just not for the base profession. Might stacking wouldn’t help us, a single warrior is 100% 25 might uptime, we wouldn’t push that out. Mobility isn’t a problem so long as we have appropriate counter-mobility, and new Reaper has a pull on GS, one of the highest movement over time skills in the game. You’re basically saying “why doesn’t Necro have the same things as other professions” and its because we aren’t those other professions, trying to make us viable by making us the same won’t work.

Our actual issues are related to a host of issues with Death Shroud, weapons needing changes, a lot of clunkiness in the rest of our kit, things that take the core theme of Necro and retain it, while updating it to work with itself and the wider combo system in the game.

Bhawb.7408:

Our actual issues are related to a host of issues with Death Shroud, weapons needing changes, a lot of clunkiness in the rest of our kit, things that take the core theme of Necro and retain it, while updating it to work with itself and the wider combo system in the game.

Yes, that was pretty much the point I wanted to make, but I wanted to compare it to stuff that is already in the game. I get that we will not press out the warrior (nor do we want to) for might stacking, and I do not want to play an elementalist (who is like the jack of all trades), it is just their reason to be in a dungeon group and I want one for myself as well(maybe epidemic can be this for us [heart of thorns hype train CHOO CHOO)

And counter mobility does not help in a dungeon/pve if you just want to run through hordes of enemies… or get you out of an aoe… we have death shroud to survive those, but I would make the argument that a stun that does not hit you because you are not there more than makes up for “I will just survive the kitten you throw at me because I have two health pools” (again dungeons and pvp spikes)

But all of these problems are not new, I just wonder what is the reasoning behind not changing it (like they did with Mesmer [who is arguably overpowered, but I do not play Mesmer so I would not know… but he is certainly much more viable now])

thoughts?

Basically, the poblem is that the things we bring aren’t useful in PvE. For us to be better, we either need PvE to change (which is not gonna happen, most likly), or some unique and useful party support.
With the BM changes, they went in the right direction. It’s not enough, though.

Axelwarrior.9084:

For us to be better, we either need PvE to change (which is not gonna happen, most likly)

I wouldn’t be so sure, Colin has talked about wanting PvE encounters to change, and we’ve got other things to build on that like difficult PvE content, AI reworking, etc.

Bhawb.7408:

Axelwarrior.9084:

For us to be better, we either need PvE to change (which is not gonna happen, most likly)

I wouldn’t be so sure, Colin has talked about wanting PvE encounters to change, and we’ve got other things to build on that like difficult PvE content, AI reworking, etc.

I’m not doubting their intentions, I’m doubting their ability to make it happen…

Assuming nothing changes in PvE (I doubt it as well) … what would you change at the Necromancer in particular?

I would give the death shroud some kind of ground target port ability (that does not engage in combat – maybe dark path) and the Necromancer the ability to gain life force out of combat (signet would be ok)

In addition I would rework Lich Form to what it was in ye olde times.
Give us the ability to cast between the autoattacks (which are the only things we do) … then it might even be viable to use it compared to Rampage

I am fully aware that will not happen, I am just interested what other people think about it …

Bhawb.7408:

Axelwarrior.9084:

For us to be better, we either need PvE to change (which is not gonna happen, most likly)

I wouldn’t be so sure, Colin has talked about wanting PvE encounters to change, and we’ve got other things to build on that like difficult PvE content, AI reworking, etc.

There is just one problem : They won’t change encounters in the old content ‘cause they are lazy, and if HoT’s always thrown around “challenging groupcontent” is not the same as “new dungeons”,“raids” or other types of “instanced group content” but simply open world BS, it won’t matter anyways. Well although then the elitists at least couldn’t exclude Necros from the content.

Shiki.7148:

Bhawb.7408:

Axelwarrior.9084:

For us to be better, we either need PvE to change (which is not gonna happen, most likly)

I wouldn’t be so sure, Colin has talked about wanting PvE encounters to change, and we’ve got other things to build on that like difficult PvE content, AI reworking, etc.

There is just one problem : They won’t change encounters in the old content ‘cause they are lazy, and if HoT’s always thrown around “challenging groupcontent” is not the same as “new dungeons”,“raids” or other types of “instanced group content” but simply open world BS, it won’t matter anyways. Well although then the elitists at least couldn’t exclude Necros from the content.

You can’t assume that yet. Considering the ease of changing the AI and fractals getting changed let’s play the wait and see for content first.

PlatinumMember.5274:

Shiki.7148:

Bhawb.7408:

Axelwarrior.9084:

For us to be better, we either need PvE to change (which is not gonna happen, most likly)

I wouldn’t be so sure, Colin has talked about wanting PvE encounters to change, and we’ve got other things to build on that like difficult PvE content, AI reworking, etc.

There is just one problem : They won’t change encounters in the old content ‘cause they are lazy, and if HoT’s always thrown around “challenging groupcontent” is not the same as “new dungeons”,“raids” or other types of “instanced group content” but simply open world BS, it won’t matter anyways. Well although then the elitists at least couldn’t exclude Necros from the content.

You can’t assume that yet. Considering the ease of changing the AI and fractals getting changed let’s play the wait and see for content first.

ehhhh, to be fair that’s what we’ve been doing for a while now is waiting. Although it should be said that we are at least in a better spot than we were. Still, REAAAALLLLYYYY wish they didn’t take the nerfhammer to chilling darkness.

But as far as PvE is concerned, yeah, don’t really know why they didn’t account for huge player zerg numbers for open world content. AND WHY HAVE THEY NOT FIXED SHATTERER?!

The bare minimum I would give necro is reliable finishers and active defence. Also make WoD actually decent compared to other similar skills on other classes.

I think having some evade on spectral would make sense (spectre = ghost = evade attacks). The spectral trait could add “evade attacks during 1s after activating a spectral skill. Gain life force when you evade an attack”

Then, I don’t think we should have mobility as it does not fit the theme, but we should have more stability because it does fit the theme.

Scepter and axe need rework (they are almost unused). Focus may need a bit of improvement too.

The corruptions need rebalancing, they just don’t work well currently. They could focus more on team support (like blood is power) while still fitting the necro theme. One of our corruption should become a stun break.

This being said, saying necro is low tier in PvP is wrong, there is a lot of cele signet in the NA competitive scene.

Silverkey.2078:

The spectral trait could add "evade attacks during 1s after activating a spectral skill.

Or they could just make spectral walk evade attacks and reduce it’s duration to 4 seconds base.

Nooooooooooooooooo, reducing the duration is awful

I think the trait would work fine. Mesmers have something like this for example with signets. The life force I added is to make up for the loss of life force on hit for spectral armor and spectral walk.

The rest of the game needs to change. Best necro vs. best ele/mes/war will always lose. On my mind lately:

Wells are too small, or too short, or on too low cooldown.
Dark Pact 25 CD is just mocking. 16s CD if our health happens to be high enough.
Fearing Diamond Skinners.
Need better stomps. FitG is too short to cover someone’s downed skill interrupts.
Immob should do as advertised: no thief/ele rolling out of it.

I would give an arm and a leg for a reliable way to stomp outside of a tiny kitten well and a freaking elite with 180 CD. Please make going into DS NOT cancel stomps so foot in the grave actually have some utility or at lease extend its duration so it can cover you for a whole stomp animation instead of 3/4 of one. I dont even bother trying to stomp someone anymore if Plague is on CD.

Are you missing the part where 2 necros are showed in NA esl final for more then one week on both of the top teams?

lighter.2708:

NA top teams

You mean team? No need for a plural form there.

Aktium.9506:

lighter.2708:

NA top teams

You mean team? No need for a plural form there.

if you are trying to argue that there’s only one top team on NA and the rest are trash or w/e…
Since they are both in the final, i would consider both teams top teams.

Cool edits son. Took you a while to figure it out.

Aktium.9506:

Cool edits son. Took you a while to figure it out.

Yea, i was trying to figure out if you are just outdated or just trying to trash talk..
well, i guess i’ll start to ignore you now as it was the second one..

That’s nice. Though I wouldn’t necessarily call it trash talking. I’ve watched NA team in action and none of the teams except Abjured seem even remotely serious in their efforts.

lighter.2708:

Are you missing the part where 2 necros are showed in NA esl final for more then one week on both of the top teams?

seriously, how does this prove anything? have you actually watched their games vs EU, they get stomped and the Necro is first target and get focused out of the game. once Necro is meta, then you can talk. Abjured have to cater to having a Necro in the team due to it being a handicap, it’s doesn’t mean that Necros are viable, they would just rather play with their team as is, also not how since getting a Necro on their team over an Engie, Abjured have not one a major world tournament?

I don’t think the necro in abjured is a handicap. The lack of mobility makes it an easier target than a thief obviously, but they also take him out first because they know he is dangerous in a team fight because of the boon hate and condi transfers.

Silverkey.2078:

I don’t think the necro in abjured is a handicap. The lack of mobility makes it an easier target than a thief obviously, but they also take him out first because they know he is dangerous in a team fight because of the boon hate and condi transfers.

ok, so the fact that Necro can be focused and taken out easily means that the Necro is a handicap as it cannot survive being focused and not having mobility is, yes you guessed it, a handicap as well. what’s the point of being “dangerous” when you die all the time before you can even become what you think people fear of you?

Odeezee.7362:

Silverkey.2078:

I don’t think the necro in abjured is a handicap. The lack of mobility makes it an easier target than a thief obviously, but they also take him out first because they know he is dangerous in a team fight because of the boon hate and condi transfers.

ok, so the fact that Necro can be focused and taken out easily means that the Necro is a handicap as it cannot survive being focused and not having mobility is, yes you guessed it, a handicap as well. what’s the point of being “dangerous” when you die all the time before you can even become what you think people fear of you?

You’re talking about when Nos ran condi builds or power builds in the past. Right now he pretty much only runs cele builds or tanky soldiers power builds from what I’ve seen, and those are both much harder to focus down and have better life force generation than condi builds. They just trade burst condi DPS for sustained DPS and better survivability.

So don’t think of condi or glass cannon power necro as the meta for the class anymore, because it isn’t. I do think condi builds have some potential though, but only if reaper trait/skill synergies fix the current condi builds problems in practice (and with stability and AoE spammable dhuumfire, that looks possible) and if terror and path of corruption get changed to no longer occupy the same tier.

I really really would love just one reliable blast finisher that isn’t a mark that has to be tripped to trigger. Maybe the reaper 5 greatsword skill instead of the stun on it make it a blast finisher. Maybe one of the new shouts could be a blast finisher.

Chuck Zitto.2367:

I really really would love just one reliable blast finisher that isn’t a mark that has to be tripped to trigger. Maybe the reaper 5 greatsword skill instead of the stun on it make it a blast finisher. Maybe one of the new shouts could be a blast finisher.

Bone minions?

eh forgot about them. Not a fan of pet builds. Im down for dropping both bone minion and staff mark blast for something easy and that peeps will use. like gs 5 skill. Or even just a fix so that staff mark blasts when you put the mark down and not when it triggers.

Dirame.8521:

Chuck Zitto.2367:

I really really would love just one reliable blast finisher that isn’t a mark that has to be tripped to trigger. Maybe the reaper 5 greatsword skill instead of the stun on it make it a blast finisher. Maybe one of the new shouts could be a blast finisher.

Bone minions?

That activation time tho.
First the 1½ cast time to summon and then the 2s delay on the actual combo blast after using Putrid Explosion.

That’s useless for a lot of short duration fields.

From the streams the rise shout seems a little underwhelming. Maybe it should be a blast finisher.

Aktium.9506:

First the 1½ cast time to summon and then the 2s delay on the actual combo blast after using Putrid Explosion.

That’s useless for a lot of short duration fields.

The combo is saved, so the field can expire.

They should get rid of that corruptors fervor trait in death magic and make a trait that synergizes better with multiple builds. Corruptors fervor is just a… trait.

Dark Armor
You have a 33% chance to blind foes that strike you while you have protection.
or
You reflect projectiles while you have protection.

Both scale with an infinite number of opponents. We don’t necessarily need reflect if you could accomplish the same type of defense with blind, IMO.

I would opt for the first one, though, because it’s more balanced and it works with chilling darkness. (WHICH SUCKS kittenING DONKEY kitten. Ty anet for not using your imagination)

Well of Power should pulse stability.
Well of Darkness should have a 30s CD and gain an additional effect, probably.
Well of Blood shouldn’t suck. Either be a water field or allies in it siphon health. Or both.
Spectral Wall should reflect projectiles and infuse them with ethereal (confusion) effect.
Spectral Armor should grant 5 stability for 6s. Nerf the cooldown back to 60s if you want.
(Weird cooldowns like 50s bother me for some reason.)
Spectral Recall should be classified as a stunbreaker. It currently teleports but that’s it.
Spectral Grasp should be a channel like engineer magnet that taunts during the channel and chills the foe when pulled. Why? Cause it currently sucks and cause taunt.
Blood is Power shouldn’t be a garbage skill.
Axe 1 shouldn’t be garbage.

We also shouldn’t be receiving nerfs to reaper yet, Arenanet.

Aktium.9506:

Dirame.8521:

Chuck Zitto.2367:

I really really would love just one reliable blast finisher that isn’t a mark that has to be tripped to trigger. Maybe the reaper 5 greatsword skill instead of the stun on it make it a blast finisher. Maybe one of the new shouts could be a blast finisher.

Bone minions?

That activation time tho.
First the 1½ cast time to summon and then the 2s delay on the actual combo blast after using Putrid Explosion.

That’s useless for a lot of short duration fields.

Isn’t that why you cast them beforehand? And there’s a 2s delay? I used to play a Necro burst spec at the start of the game that used bone minions and Well of Suffering and I never had a delay on the blast finisher. Pre-casting the minions each time so they are ready for every fight.

Dirame.8521:

And there’s a 2s delay?

The actual finisher doesn’t trigger until the little green cloud animation from the explosion wears off.

Bone Minion putrid explosion has always had a delay, and IIRC its actually 3 seconds. Just go somewhere and use them and wait for the second “blast” that is really noticeable.

Bhawb.7408:

and IIRC its actually 3 seconds.

I got it to 2s last time I counted. But it might just be me being awful at counting seconds.

Necro is not bottom tier in pvp. We’re in a better spot than rangers, engis, guards and warriors, so that’s top half right there. Countering eles also helps.

Roe.3679:

Necro is not bottom tier in pvp. We’re in a better spot than rangers, engis, guards and warriors, so that’s top half right there. Countering eles also helps.

I think you exaggerate a bit. I can’t remember the last time I saw a Necro in tournament play. It’s like what, Noscoc and thats about it. In normal PvP or WvW we are viable, but so is just about everything, when played properly.

Arche.7326:

Roe.3679:

Necro is not bottom tier in pvp. We’re in a better spot than rangers, engis, guards and warriors, so that’s top half right there. Countering eles also helps.

I think you exaggerate a bit. I can’t remember the last time I saw a Necro in tournament play. It’s like what, Noscoc and thats about it. In normal PvP or WvW we are viable, but so is just about everything, when played properly.

Today, there was also OP necro, and the random person on mime’s random team. There was also a well necro on the one team that QT fought, but I forgot his name (he got bodied). In previous weaks sunfish and pheownix have played it in NA ESLs/

Even eles tank better than us, while dealing more dmg and healing for more. Thieves can’t burst us, so they jump around till we die, easy as that. Mesmers apparently are meant to be op, as are warriors…

Necromancer is like Batman… without fingers. We have a bunch of things that could be really cool, but we can’t make them work the way we want. Not to mention we compete against Superman, Wonderwoman, The Flash, ect., and we have no super powers of our own that put us on their level. We could be awesome, but we need our hands.

You clearly don’t understand Batman at all.

Bhawb.7408:

You clearly don’t understand Batman at all.

His Utility Belt would be quite useless if he couldn’t grab anything in it, which would make it rather impossible to compete with super heroes. I think I have a fairly good understanding of Batman.

Cecilia.5179:

Bhawb.7408:

You clearly don’t understand Batman at all.

His Utility Belt would be quite useless if he couldn’t grab anything in it, which would make it rather impossible to compete with super heroes. I think I have a fairly good understanding of Batman.

No Engineers are the batman of this game, since they have toolbelt skills, and lack magical/super powers of their own in favor of gadgets, kits, and questionable elixirs. And engi is also arguably worse off than necro in PvP right now, so theres that too.

Cecilia.5179:

His Utility Belt would be quite useless if he couldn’t grab anything in it, which would make it rather impossible to compete with super heroes. I think I have a fairly good understanding of Batman.

Batman is part of the Justice League, the organization created to protect earth from intergalactic threats that contains all the people you mentioned, precisely because he can fully stand with those other heroes. His “super power” is and always has been his intellect, specifically planning and forethought. Think of it this way, Lex Luthor’s only super power is being smart, yet he manages to be Superman’s #1 consistent enemy, despite Superman literally being an overpowered piece of crap.

Batman doesn’t have to punch people to be a good hero. He literally has a plan to deal with every single member of the Justice League (except Wonder Woman, his plan is basically “hey Superman beat her up hope you win”) including himself. The utility belt is just a way for him to have tools to deal with a massive variety of situations, same with his massive toy collection, including suits he’s made to fight superheroes like Superman.

So no, you don’t understand Batman.

Necro is plenty ‘viable’. Ele/Mesmer/Guardian levels of awesome? No, not really, but most Necros are terrible and don’t even have a clue what tools they have available to them. Never mind how to use such tools. Quit reading Lordrosicky threads. He’s mostly bad and clueless.

“Can an experienced Necro help me with my Axe/Focus Spectral condi build plz plz plz!?! I’m having trouble picking traits.”

/sigh

Aktium.9506:

Dirame.8521:

Chuck Zitto.2367:

I really really would love just one reliable blast finisher that isn’t a mark that has to be tripped to trigger. Maybe the reaper 5 greatsword skill instead of the stun on it make it a blast finisher. Maybe one of the new shouts could be a blast finisher.

Bone minions?

That activation time tho.
First the 1½ cast time to summon and then the 2s delay on the actual combo blast after using Putrid Explosion.

That’s useless for a lot of short duration fields.

Its a pretty low CD for a double blast finisher and no field lasts shorter than 3s to begin with. You can also have it pre-casted since they are minions.

Tman.6349:

Necro is plenty ‘viable’. Ele/Mesmer/Guardian levels of awesome? No, not really, but most Necros are terrible and don’t even have a clue what tools they have available to them. Never mind how to use such tools. Quit reading Lordrosicky threads. He’s mostly bad and clueless.

“Can an experienced Necro help me with my Axe/Focus Spectral condi build plz plz plz!?! I’m having trouble picking traits.”

/sigh

This is how I feel about most necromancers who talk about their “balance”. They describe what they want with necromancer but really they are just describing other classes while attempting to keep the ‘death’ theme, most of them pretty much describing engineer (active defenses, group support, fields, condition bombing, mobility, stability).

If you want to be the so-called viable class, go play it. If you want to play necromancer, play necromancer. Regardless of what anyone says necromancers are able to do high damage, survive well, and can get through content fine. Not speedrun level fast, but if you know speedruns, they tend to be very specific about everything and it just happens that necromancer is not part of it.