My Issue With Scourge
I don’t see why every build or spec has to be PvP friendly.
Have you any idea how useless a lot of Necro SKILLS are in PvE? Not builds, traits, specs… but SKILLS. Core spells of the class.
Well watch a stream day before yesterday with a few well known PvP and they seemed to like Scourge and what it could bring. Iam not a PvP myself, more of WvW so I cant say. I know from 5y of playing Necromancer that when we get focused we have less tools then most to survive and that includes Shroud aswell.
So if Scourge are easily focused down, Id say what else is new
Underjordens Furste 80 Necro Piken-server
Servant of Dhuum
Servant of Dhuum
I see the only use to be to turtle up home with the turrets (that’s what the scourges are, don’t kid yourself) and hope a deadeye/ranger/dh doesn’t auto attack you to death from 1200+ range before a teammate can peel them.
The barrier stuff will play more like necro having no shroud at the start of the match, only all the time unless barrier has silly scaling from healing power.
Edit: despite the downsides, it looks like it would be a complete nightmare to fight on point with all the condi and boon rip.
(edited by zedapoc.1493)
A few streamers were talking and saying “Omg elementalist and necro will be unbeatable in team fights in SPvP” lol. They are just hyped and not really thinking. You know what’s more unbeatable? An elementalist and literally any other support class holding the node with the elementalist.
Scourge has barrier – that’s it. It basically heals you temporarily; nothing more.
Any build without scourge already corrupts boons and can already do condi spam, except they have death shroud to survive.
(edited by Zefrost.3425)
Most likely, the scourge defense will revolve around :
1- desert shroud which will be your “Oh kitten ” button (The goto skill which may even allow you to heal you thank’s to transfusion and life from death
2- and the pre emptive defense skill sand flare.
Out of that, with an heavy investment in “sustain” core traits there is definitely one sh*tload of potential sustain. So much that I’m guessing that a lot of player will whine about unkillable scourge the same way that they complain about unkillable defensive warriors.
The thing that probably make the PvPers eyes shine is the massive boon hate that can grant you life force and give you directly the boons that you corrupt thanks to freed from corruption. This trait is the dream toy of every necromancer in an heavy boon environment. (Thought there is no way that this trait won’t be nerfed after a short time)
Scourge has barrier – that’s it. It basically heals you temporarily; nothing more.
You’re looking just at scourge when you’re saying that. Traits like Parasitic contagion take a whole different sense in a necromancer build where you benefit from the effect while under the effect of a barrier. Also desert shroud may even let you heavily benefit from a trait like transfusion.
For me, the corner stone of the scourge is the skill desert shroud. To many things are ultimately tied to this skill and if this skill is not a channeled skill like it seem to be, then personal survivability might be pretty good.
No core profession should be balanced around an optional elite specialization.
(edited by Dadnir.5038)
I don’t see why every build or spec has to be PvP friendly.
Have you any idea how useless a lot of Necro SKILLS are in PvE? Not builds, traits, specs… but SKILLS. Core spells of the class.
Why wouldn’t it be pvp friendly? Pvp is part of the game so why act like it doesn’t exist?
In pvp we don’t want pve changes to screw us over just like how ppl who play pve doesn’t want pvp changes to screw them over
If this was a game like warframe id agree since warframe doesn’t really have a competitive game mod, but gw2 does and some of us enjoy it and would like to see it succeed…overall…..your statement didn’t make much sense to me no offense
Well watch a stream day before yesterday with a few well known PvP and they seemed to like Scourge and what it could bring. Iam not a PvP myself, more of WvW so I cant say. I know from 5y of playing Necromancer that when we get focused we have less tools then most to survive and that includes Shroud aswell.
So if Scourge are easily focused down, Id say what else is new
true, you have a good point there, us getting shafted is nothing new
I see the only use to be to turtle up home with the turrets (that’s what the scourges are, don’t kid yourself) and hope a deadeye/ranger/dh doesn’t auto attack you to death from 1200+ range before a teammate can peel them.
The barrier stuff will play more like necro having no shroud at the start of the match, only all the time unless barrier has silly scaling from healing power.
Edit: despite the downsides, it looks like it would be a complete nightmare to fight on point with all the condi and boon rip.
I agree, it seems like it has the potential to (as always) cause a teams downfall if supported
But do we ever really get support? I mean unless you duo que with a friend who doesn’t mind baby sitting you, 9/10 youll have no support and now pressuring a necros to death seems even easier
A few streamers were talking and saying “Omg elementalist and necro will be unbeatable in team fights in SPvP” lol. They are just hyped and not really thinking. You know what’s more unbeatable? An elementalist and literally any other support class holding the node with the elementalist.
Scourge has barrier – that’s it. It basically heals you temporarily; nothing more.
Any build without scourge already corrupts boons and can already do condi spam, except they have death shroud to survive.
Exactly, axe/focus builds are already a thing, combine that with scepter and dagger and boom that’s it. You got condi spam and boon removal, not to mention the corruption utilities and wells which not only will add more condi, but also corrupt boons
I see where anet was going and I applaud them for effort, but this just doesn’t look like what was needed
Most likely, the scourge defense will revolve around :
1- desert shroud which will be your “Oh kitten ” button (The goto skill which may even allow you to heal you thank’s to transfusion and life from death
2- and the pre emptive defense skill sand flare.Out of that, with an heavy investment in “sustain” core traits there is definitely one sh*tload of potential sustain. So much that I’m guessing that a lot of player will whine about unkillable scourge the same way that they complain about unkillable defensive warriors.
The thing that probably make the PvPers eyes shine is the massive boon hate that can grant you life force and give you directly the boons that you corrupt thanks to freed from corruption. This trait is the dream toy of every necromancer in an heavy boon environment. (Thought there is no way that this trait won’t be nerfed after a short time)
I’m not to sure on how to think on that. I run minion toughness power necros and even then if the other team looks at me and yells “punching bag! get emm!” I tend not to last very long unless I decide to turn on the sweat button and even then, I still die pretty fast
Better yet I have a bunker rev based around healing, toughness, and boons. It’s next to impossible for him to be killed 1v1 and 1v2 can be quite a breeze, however once cc spams and one more person becomes involved (1v2 can become sweaty if condis involved) then its back to the respawn screen he goes.
I don’t see scourge tanking like that and if my bunker rev doesn’t stand much a chance I’m not too sure if scourge will.
Then again I see what youre saying, sand shroud might just be a life saver
I don’t want to be biased against it, but like I said from what ive learned about it so far and what ive experienced in pvp, I just don’t see it being viable
I think what we get for loosing shroud isn’t good enough at the current state. The fear is kinda boring and weak, yeah it has a high target cap and is instant, but its a very short duration on a mediocre cooldown. The defensive side is.. yeah it depends on how low you can get the CD on skill 5. The shield is decent, especially if you trait for the big sand shade, that alone is a 8k shield every 10 seconds alone. But yeah, the condi remove is superb, the “shade attack” on using a skill is very weak, even if you stack them.
The punishment skills are weak and boring too. We get slickshoes that give us a whooping 6 seconds of swiftness and a small burn on foes? Really? Thats just boring in every aspect. The Lifeforce skill is okay, it has a purpose. The portal seems fun too. The Ultimate is.. weird. Its a bit of everything, boon corrupt, damage, debuffs, offensive buffs via might.. but it doenst feel ulti worthy..
Im actually far more interested in the traits than the skills themselves really for sPvP. In particularly Sand Savant. This skill has the flavour text “A greater shade counts as three shades for related traits.”. How does it interact with the other traits because of this.
We never get to see the non-traited scaling on Desert Empowerment. Does it grant 650 odd barrier and scale well with healing power or is it always 2k with 150 healing power? Does it cause it to apply barrier 3 times meaning Abrasive Gift removes 3 conditions and grants 6 stacks of might?
Does it cause Unending Corruption Corruption to corrupt 3 conditions? Does Nourishing Rot have a per strike ICD like CV and Chilling Darkness? ( CV states it but CD does not ).
Its maximum range is 1050 so you dont really need to be that close to a fight to make use of it. Also covers a huge area.
I’m a pvp’er too, its not a pvp friendly spec nor should it be. I play condition necro in pve and power in pvp personally. I think its fine to have specs that have a niche, and this game isn’t so rigid where you can’t take pvp specs in to pve.
You can do it in pve to pvp but you don’t mainly because you want to win. And generally what dictates our specs in pvp is the meta and current class balance, if we were in a condition heavy meta we would rune condition transfer all the time for example even if reaper builds were viable.
Just keep that in mind if you pvp, our balance is far more complex then pve or just looking at our tree of skills you have to look at the bigger picture.
These forums are a joke its not for opinions or debate its just a safe place for people to cry at.
[quote=6678019;Brujeria.7536:The shield is decent, especially if you trait for the big sand shade, that alone is a 8k shield every 10 seconds alone.[/quote]
You can be hit by all the 3 shades using the F2 or an ally can be hit by you and all your shades, but the effect is granted only Once. You will obtain only a 2k barrier, nothing more (with zero healing power).
For the other things, I agree.
I don’t see why every build or spec has to be PvP friendly.
Have you any idea how useless a lot of Necro SKILLS are in PvE? Not builds, traits, specs… but SKILLS. Core spells of the class.
So an entire expansion and nothing new for spvp players that play Necro. Got ya.
I don’t see why every build or spec has to be PvP friendly.
Have you any idea how useless a lot of Necro SKILLS are in PvE? Not builds, traits, specs… but SKILLS. Core spells of the class.So an entire expansion and nothing new for spvp players that play Necro. Got ya.
well look at spellbreaker, that is most defiantly a wvw or spvp spec. deadeye screams wvw, lok back at HoT, the druid was build for raids. not every spec needs to be useful in all game types.
A shadow of darkness falls, there is nothing you can do but watch.
The clear blue sky turns a dark sickening green and swirls with corruption.
A dark laugh of evil echo’s in your mind!
The clear blue sky turns a dark sickening green and swirls with corruption.
A dark laugh of evil echo’s in your mind!
It will NOT be a viable pvp spec for anyone solo queing. It’s based around shades, but guess what…how do you get rid of the shades…just kill the necro. Thus, Necros will be even MORE of a focus target (if that’s even possible).
The only difference now is that you won’t have stability or Death Shroud. You have ZERO scaling defense like blocks, evades, immunities or invulnerabilities. You even lose a fear unless the enemy is dumb enough to fight you within a small radius near the shade. It will have almost no sustain and any sustain you do have requires you to cc yourself to the small shade range. What are you going to do against a range attacker??? Just sit there? Leave the shade and your main source of abilities/damage/survivability?
It’s even simpler now to beat any opposing team with a Scourge necro. Engage him at the start from range before he even gets Life force built up , then place someone on him coming from spawn the rest of the game. He will either have to waste shades off node or have even less defense than a necro at spawn does now.
The team with the scourge necro would need someone specd for serious support and lots of coordination. Otherwise, it’s useless.
It would be impossible to lose a duel to a Scourge unless you are totally mindless. Someone with no stability, no scaling defense, and has to stay put in one small area for any survivability traits to work…just pick the necro off from range…roflmao
This spec is obviously meant for WvW and PvE, but the strange thing is that this wasn’t even needed for necro viability in WvW.
You even lose a fear unless the enemy is dumb enough to fight you within a small radius near the shade … requires you to cc yourself to the small shade range … Leave the shade and your main source of abilities/damage/survivability?…
…and has to stay put in one small area
I keep seeing quotes like this. F1~5 all read “around/near you and your sand shades.”. Bar F1 shades will only really increase the area you affect due to the flavour text “Targets affected by this ability can only be affected once per cast.”
You dont have to be anywhere near your shades at all. Watch this you can clearly see the fear from f3 coming from the necro as well as the shades. Same at 7:03.
(edited by Sigmoid.7082)
well look at spellbreaker, that is most defiantly a wvw or spvp spec. deadeye screams wvw, lok back at HoT, the druid was build for raids. not every spec needs to be useful in all game types.
The druid is insanely strong in sPvP and since the release obtained a healer role, with also high dps. That class was made for raids but was one of the best in sPvP since HoT release and right now is one of the best class at high tier.
Anyway, that elite is not meant to be played in small scale PvP but to Large PvP areas like a WvW zerg.
The Fx skills work on you also without shades and that’s the only good thing in that mechanic.
I really like this elite, the theme and the animations, but it’s totaly bad in sPvP.
I will try and play WvW for the first tine since years (I hate the WvW).
The only problem is that in WvW if someone catch you alone you’re doomed. But in a zerg there’s a chance to survive and be useful.
You can be hit by all the 3 shades using the F2 or an ally can be hit by you and all your shades, but the effect is granted only Once. You will obtain only a 2k barrier, nothing more (with zero healing power).
For the other things, I agree.[/quote]
Umm no. Desert Empowerment and Sand Savage work together. Desert Empowerement has no cooldown, and Sand Savant makes your shade count as 3, so you get 6k barrier every 10 seconds for spawning it, and 2k every 8 second with shade skill 3, equals to 8k AOE barrier every 10 seconds. We dont know if the barrier numbers are baseline though, or with invested healing power, but that is the intention behind the trait.
Same thing with Sadistic Searing and Unending Corruption, if you pick either of these traits and sand savant you cause 3 stacks of burning AOE or corrupt 3 boons AOE every 10 seconds.
I keep seeing quotes like this. F1~5 all read “around/near you and your sand shades.”. Bar F1 shades will only really increase the area you affect due to the flavour text “Targets affected by this ability can only be affected once per cast.”
You dont have to be anywhere near your shades at all. Watch this you can clearly see the fear from f3 coming from the necro as well as the shades. Same at 7:03.
While technically true, it’s still exposes the literal uselessness against range. You don’t even have Shroud 2 to get into range. Are you going to blow a long cooldown portal to get close to ranged enemy just to give him a 1 sec fear that may be dodged, blocked, stability thwarted, etc???
Plus…the last thing a non-scaling cloth wearing support spec should do is get in melee range. This whole Scourge thing is clunky and counter-intuitive for anything but scripted PvE content.
Nevertheless, knock yourself out. Solo que with this in a Platinum division and see for yourself when the time comes. It’s a spec that’s WAY too focused on condis and even less survivability, stability, and mobility. You can literally chain cc a Scourge at ANY time and NEVER worry about stability. That ALONE makes it a PvP disaster.
Umm no. Desert Empowerment and Sand Savage work together. Desert Empowerement has no cooldown, and Sand Savant makes your shade count as 3, so you get 6k barrier every 10 seconds for spawning it, and 2k every 8 second with shade skill 3, equals to 8k AOE barrier every 10 seconds. We dont know if the barrier numbers are baseline though, or with invested healing power, but that is the intention behind the trait.
Same thing with Sadistic Searing and Unending Corruption, if you pick either of these traits and sand savant you cause 3 stacks of burning AOE or corrupt 3 boons AOE every 10 seconds.
Ok, that’s true. I was thinking only about the F3 Sand Cascade and not about the Trait.
Plus…the last thing a non-scaling cloth wearing support spec should do is get in melee range. This whole Scourge thing is clunky and counter-intuitive for anything but scripted PvE content.
Now you are doing the opposite. Just because I said the effects also happen on/around you doesn’t mean you need to be moving yourself into melee range of anything.
Wait until the 18th.
Although by the sounds of things you’ve already written the spec off so every conceivable bad scenario is extenuated and common place and any good scenarios/benefits are dismissed by perfect counters that will obviously happen 100% of the time.
Umm no. Desert Empowerment and Sand Savage work together. Desert Empowerement has no cooldown, and Sand Savant makes your shade count as 3, so you get 6k barrier every 10 seconds for spawning it, …
Sand Savant only works for the purpose of traits that deal with shades so it is considered 3 shades:
“A greater shade counts as three shades for related traits.”
WP never shows Desert Empowerment without the trait hence why even on the wiki the one who put it up there has put it up with a radius of 300. There is no way to know if the 2020 isn’t the tripled version of the trait or if it even works that way to begin with. Considering he has 1200 healing power when he goes through and the increased radius I’m speculatively leaning towards it doesn’t. Or it is and the barrier base and scaling are super low. Same with..
and 2k every 8 second with shade skill 3, equals to 8k AOE barrier every 10 seconds. We dont know if the barrier numbers are baseline though, or with invested healing power, but that is the intention behind the trait.
Shroud 3, Sand Cascade skill not a trait and also reads
“Targets affected by this ability can only be affected once per cast.”
So again it leads to the impression that it will only grant its barrier value once.
With bold we do know WP has 1200 HP.
I could be wrong but that would lead the barrier numbers to be insane.
(edited by Sigmoid.7082)
Plus…the last thing a non-scaling cloth wearing support spec should do is get in melee range. This whole Scourge thing is clunky and counter-intuitive for anything but scripted PvE content.
Now you are doing the opposite. Just because I said the effects also happen on/around you doesn’t mean you need to be moving yourself into melee range of anything.
Wait until the 18th.
Although by the sounds of things you’ve already written the spec off so every conceivable bad scenario is extenuated and common place and any good scenarios/benefits are dismissed by perfect counters that will obviously happen 100% of the time.
Why are you so worried about what I’m going to do and what I think? I told you, if you don’t believe me, knock yourself out and see for yourself.
The PROOF will be in what YOU do yourself after trying it and seeing I’m right.
I play enough of the professions and have played necro long enough (since release) that I know if you take away death shroud AND the movement of #2 AND the stability AND the chill/blind/stun abilities of DS…that you’re going to be an even EASIER focus target if you’re just getting back fixed location small radius support/condis/barrier.
There’s a reason you haven’t see banner warriors and turret engies in the entire life of GW2 PvP (with the exception of 1 season where turrets were so ridiculous and had enormous range compared to these dinky shades).
Nevertheless, I look forward to your YouTube videos showing us how awesome it is…lol
Plus…the last thing a non-scaling cloth wearing support spec should do is get in melee range. This whole Scourge thing is clunky and counter-intuitive for anything but scripted PvE content.
Now you are doing the opposite. Just because I said the effects also happen on/around you doesn’t mean you need to be moving yourself into melee range of anything.
Wait until the 18th.
Although by the sounds of things you’ve already written the spec off so every conceivable bad scenario is extenuated and common place and any good scenarios/benefits are dismissed by perfect counters that will obviously happen 100% of the time.
Why are you so worried about what I’m going to do and what I think? I told you, if you don’t believe me, knock yourself out and see for yourself.
The PROOF will be in what YOU do yourself after trying it and seeing I’m right.
I play enough of the professions and have played necro long enough (since release) that I know if you take away death shroud AND the movement of #2 AND the stability AND the chill/blind/stun abilities of DS…that you’re going to be an even EASIER focus target if you’re just getting back fixed location small radius support/condis/barrier.
There’s a reason you haven’t see banner warriors and turret engies in the entire life of GW2 PvP (with the exception of 1 season where turrets were so ridiculous and had enormous range compared to these dinky shades).
Nevertheless, I look forward to your YouTube videos showing us how awesome it is…lol
To each their own. Lol
Nevertheless, knock yourself out. Solo que with this in a Platinum division and see for yourself when the time comes. It’s a spec that’s WAY too focused on condis and even less survivability, stability, and mobility. You can literally chain cc a Scourge at ANY time and NEVER worry about stability. That ALONE makes it a PvP disaster.
I’m guessing they’ll rework Foot In The Grave.
All we can do is test it out on the demo weekend and provide strong feedback.
If they nerf my Reaper heavily then I’m thinking Firebrand and Spellbreaker are looking like the best classes for WvW for me.
The class has to have survivability in both small scale and large scale – barrier isn’t enough for a shroudless necro IMO.
Small scale is hard enough on a reaper – the continuous chain CC and immobilise is impossible to deal with.
Now if they added a Grandmaster trait to Scourge like this:
“Gain superspeed and immunity to control effects, immobilise, chill and cripple when you have barrier.”
That would make Scourge more like what you expect from a necro – something tanky and unstoppable.
Players would have to burst through your barrier in order to be able to CC you – kind of like a mini breakbar.
I don’t see why every build or spec has to be PvP friendly.
Have you any idea how useless a lot of Necro SKILLS are in PvE? Not builds, traits, specs… but SKILLS. Core spells of the class.So an entire expansion and nothing new for spvp players that play Necro. Got ya.
That would almost be as bad as an entire expansion of Necro being unviable in raids… In fact with the sadistic cooldown on Demonic Lore and being that so many Scourge skills only work properly on enemies with boons (uncommon in PvE) our new spec doesn’t really look like it will shine in PvE at all.
I can’t see Necro being any good in raids for yet another expansion.
I love how PvP players like to reject everything that they don’t like with a : “Erk! that’s a spec directed at PvEer!!!”. With a lot of PvE hate. However, while PvE might feel a lot “easier”, it’s bound to very rigid requirement and most of the things that PvP player reject as PvE thing do not meet those rigid requirements.
Scourge is a spec that will perform extremly well in environments that are overflowing with boons and conditions (which mean PvP and WvW).
The condition choice and conditions durations of the spec are short and meant for condi burst against moving enemies (which mean again PvP and WvW).
Even the main argument that barrier aren’t a good enough way to mitigate damage for PvP can’t be valid as an argument that it is a PvE spec. Simply put, mobs tend to hit way harder than any player in PvP.
From an objective point of view, Scourge shouldn’t perform badly in PvP, however, players will have to change the way their defensive gameplay from a traditionnal necromancer to the defensive gameplay of a profession that is close to a warrior. I agree that the low barriers values are scary, that the fact that they decay is even more dreadful, however, there will be a bit more freedom in what you can do that should make the necromancer a lot more potent in PvP.
In PvE, I tend to agree with Zephar, if anet don’t create perfect environments that would be extremly toxic for other professions, the scourge won’t shine at all (exactly like the current and old necromancer). It’s a shame but the only place in PvE where the necromancer shine is in high level fractal, Scourge is following the same way.
No core profession should be balanced around an optional elite specialization.