I don’t have opinions. I only have facts I can’t adequately prove.
Near to Death is the worst trait ever
As an LF-generating Powermancer who roams WvW, I can always tell when I still have Near to Death swapped out from doing some PvE. Always. That extra 3 seconds has been the difference between life and death on occasion, and the second I notice I don’t have it, I switch to it.
I get what you’re saying about the on-DS traits. They can’t balance them such that having Near to Death makes them overpowered, so in effect, not having Near to Death more likely makes them underpowered. However, if you have them, you’re running a DS build most likely, or just benefiting from one or two of them as bonuses instead of trying to really optimize on their uptime. If you’re running a concentrated DS build with these, then you use Near to Death for the synergy.
I wouldn’t call the other traits useless if you don’t have Near to Death, and balanced if you do. They’re still tools you can use as part of going into DS. I personally like the trait, and will continue to use it.
Alduin Nightsong, 80 Human Necro
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
Its highly beneficial for DS flash builds. Think about other builds other than just your own when judging traits…
The big problem I feel with Near to Death, and some of our other traits(bloodthirst cof cof), is that their existence makes the balance team really nervous about the values from other traits and skills.
An example of this is the weakening shroud change. The weakness duration is awful because of a perceived OPness if a character specs into Near to Death and high condi duration to achieve permamemt weakness. The balance team really overvalues Near to Death for DS triggering traits and makes many of them subpar because of it.
I feel that Near to Death would be much better trait for DS focused builds if instead of reducing the cooldown it made the cooldown timer begin counting on entering DS, so if you spent 3 seconds in DS, leaving it would get you the 7 seconds of remaining cooldown.
This would be a nerf to DS flash builds, but since the trait would no longer reduce the cooldown and allow to trigger the enter DS traits sooner than expected, those traits could receive slight buffs, making them more desirable for builds without Near to Death.
Besides that, with the new Vital Persistence, sustained DS builds are becoming much more viable than before so allowing a Necro who spent 10 seconds in DS to come out, heal and use utilities to jump right back in could really catapult DS builds as high tier effective and viable.
Attrition – A pretty name for taking longer than anyone else to kill something.
Like Kiriakulos said, the only thing that I dislike about it is that the balance team will always balance every single entry/exit DS trait thinking that you have NtD on.
The trait itself is really good, it just limits other traits unnecessarily imo.
So it would be a smart decision to take it away.
Move Foot in the Grave to Master in the place occupied by Near to Death and bring back Shade instead of it, YAY!
ALPHA, BETA, several months, … 1 Year later…“When it’s ready”[cit.]
The trait itself is really good, it just limits other traits unnecessarily imo.
Right now it limit only 1 trait.
The trait itself is really good, it just limits other traits unnecessarily imo.
Right now it limit only 1 trait.
Furious Demise – Gain fury when entering Death Shroud.
Weakening Shroud – Cast Enfeeble when entering death shroud.
Shrouded Removal – Lose a condition when you enter death shroud.
Foot in the Grave – Gain stability when you enter death shroud.
Spiteful Spirit – Gain retaliation when entering death shroud.
Just to name a few …
Foot in the Grave and Weakening Shroud.
The others are less important.
ALPHA, BETA, several months, … 1 Year later…“When it’s ready”[cit.]
Furious Demise – Gain fury when entering Death Shroud.
Weakening Shroud – Cast Enfeeble when entering death shroud.
Shrouded Removal – Lose a condition when you enter death shroud.
Foot in the Grave – Gain stability when you enter death shroud.
Spiteful Spirit – Gain retaliation when entering death shroud.
Furious Demise/Shrouded Removal/Spiteful Spirit – small bost should not be such a problem considering that few months ago we had DS on 50% reus
Foot in the Grave – Near to Death is balanced on Foot in the Grave not vice versa
Furious Demise – Gain fury when entering Death Shroud.
Weakening Shroud – Cast Enfeeble when entering death shroud.
Shrouded Removal – Lose a condition when you enter death shroud.
Foot in the Grave – Gain stability when you enter death shroud.
Spiteful Spirit – Gain retaliation when entering death shroud.Furious Demise/Shrouded Removal/Spiteful Spirit – small bost should not be such a problem considering that few months ago we had DS on 50% reus
Foot in the Grave – Near to Death is balanced on Foot in the Grave not vice versa
Fdeminse worked like Deathly perception once upon a time, so did SS and FITG, so no they are balanced around the CD near to death gives to DS.
P.S. Overall this shouldnt be a problem if DS cooldown started when you enter it instead of being applied on exit.
When life gives you lemon, ask if its from a anime or manga.
Foot in the Grave is already good without near to death. It’s about 30% stability uptime (excluding the DS cast delay). Near to Death takes it to 40% and we’re not even counting boon duration. Flashing in and out costs like no life force, especially going deep into soul reaping.
If Furious Demise lasted longer NtD might be better though.
For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards,
for there you have been and there you will long to return.
for there you have been and there you will long to return.
(edited by ArchonWing.9480)
Foot in the Grave is already good without near to death. It’s about 30% stability uptime (excluding the DS cast delay). Near to Death takes it to 40% and we’re not even counting boon duration.
If Furious Demise lasted longer NtD might be better though.
It’s not and I’m not having this argument again.
Attrition – A pretty name for taking longer than anyone else to kill something.
Foot in the Grave is already good without near to death. It’s about 30% stability uptime (excluding the DS cast delay). Near to Death takes it to 40% and we’re not even counting boon duration.
If Furious Demise lasted longer NtD might be better though.
It’s not and I’m not having this argument again.
Thank God you’re not the only one in this thread. Never really understood why people feel like posting when they have nothing to say, but alas thanks for your useful input.
My point is I disagree with the assumption that the traits were balanced around assuming NTD is taken because most work fine without it with the blatant exception of the Weakening Shroud nerf. If you want a example of bad design of this kind, it would be ranger signets which are pretty mediocre and almost designed around taking a grandmaster trait. Near to Death doesn’t even scrape the barrel for worst trait for necros. We have an entire line (Blood) that could follow the logic in the OP and actually be highly agreeable. For example, bloodthirst was adjusted according to the assumption it’d always be taken with other siphoning traits. And thus they remain so bad that nobody cares.
For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards,
for there you have been and there you will long to return.
for there you have been and there you will long to return.
(edited by ArchonWing.9480)
err… math time.
My stability, fury, retal and weakness just got a fat uptime boost.
umad?
Team Deathmatch for PvP – Raise the AoE cap for WvW – More unique events for PvE
err… math time.
My stability, fury, retal and weakness just got a fat uptime boost.
umad?
AAAAAND i kill you since you are using ds incorrectly.
When life gives you lemon, ask if its from a anime or manga.
curses II, IV + 100% cond dur= every 6s, 22s of 2 stacks of bleed and 3s of weakness is applied, and depending on your build, a 500-2k aoe crit.
Foot in the Grave is already good without near to death. It’s about 30% stability uptime (excluding the DS cast delay). Near to Death takes it to 40% and we’re not even counting boon duration.
If Furious Demise lasted longer NtD might be better though.
It’s not and I’m not having this argument again.
Thank God you’re not the only one in this thread. Never really understood why people feel like posting when they have nothing to say, but alas thanks for your useful input.
My point is I disagree with the assumption that the traits were balanced around assuming NTD is taken because most work fine without it with the blatant exception of the Weakening Shroud nerf. If you want a example of bad design of this kind, it would be ranger signets which are pretty mediocre and almost designed around taking a grandmaster trait. Near to Death doesn’t even scrape the barrel for worst trait for necros. We have an entire line (Blood) that could follow the logic in the OP and actually be highly agreeable. For example, bloodthirst was adjusted according to the assumption it’d always be taken with other siphoning traits. And thus they remain so bad that nobody cares.
It’s not an assumption. Whenever ANet posts about DS trigger traits they bring up Near to Death as a balance factor. Every single DS trigger trait was balanced to be average with NTD and ends up subpar without it.
The same is applied to all life stealing skills/traits and bloodthirst.
3 sec stability on entering DS is awful since 3 seconds are barely enough time to complete 2-3 casts of anything and you sacrifice our only damage avoidance skill for the next 7 seconds, assuming NTD. No other class has to make a choice of uninterruped short time for taking all incoming damage in the face or being actually able to avoid damage. Never mind that there’s an actual resource associated with being able to use it.
% of uptime is a lot less important than actual continuos uptime for stability, just ask yourself what is better, 3 sec stability every 7 seconds or 20 seconds of stability every 80 seconds? I’d take the 20 seconds even though it’s proportionately less, since with 20 seconds I can do a full skill rotation AND heal by the end of it.
Attrition – A pretty name for taking longer than anyone else to kill something.
I would rather they add NtD to Last Gasp in the minor master for Soul Reaping and make it an inherent CD reduction for putting 15 points into the trait line. The balance team keeps emphasizing how they want Necromancers in DS as much as possible but the CD is a real barrier.
I would rather they add NtD to Last Gasp in the minor master for Soul Reaping and make it an inherent CD reduction for putting 15 points into the trait line. The balance team keeps emphasizing how they want Necromancers in DS as much as possible but the CD is a real barrier.
Or plain reward proper DS play by removing the 10s CD from exit and just leave the on enter one, thus if you were for 9s in DS pop out for life force, you get to DS again right away.
When life gives you lemon, ask if its from a anime or manga.
Or plain reward proper DS play by removing the 10s CD from exit and just leave the on enter one, thus if you were for 9s in DS pop out for life force, you get to DS again right away.
I was secretly hoping for what you just stated but, now that it is written plainly on the forum, something completely opposite will happen. You should have demanded a water field in SR so the patch team could laugh and give Necro a fire field before nerfing that into a flat DS CD reduction.
It’s not an assumption. Whenever ANet posts about DS trigger traits they bring up Near to Death as a balance factor. Every single DS trigger trait was balanced to be average with NTD and ends up subpar without it.
yes most of them was balanced around NTD but with 50% reus, so basically there is not rly good reason to not improve them by 1 sec after NTD nerf
% of uptime is a lot less important than actual continuos uptime for stability, just ask yourself what is better, 3 sec stability every 7 seconds or 20 seconds of stability every 80 seconds? I’d take the 20 seconds even though it’s proportionately less, since with 20 seconds I can do a full skill rotation AND heal by the end of it.
or you can lose it after 2 sec, 3sec every 7 sec is way better
(edited by pierwola.9602)
It’s not an assumption. Whenever ANet posts about DS trigger traits they bring up Near to Death as a balance factor. Every single DS trigger trait was balanced to be average with NTD and ends up subpar without it.
yes most of them was balanced around NTD but with 50% reus, so basically there is not rly good reason to not improve them by 1 sec after NTD nerf
% of uptime is a lot less important than actual continuos uptime for stability, just ask yourself what is better, 3 sec stability every 7 seconds or 20 seconds of stability every 80 seconds? I’d take the 20 seconds even though it’s proportionately less, since with 20 seconds I can do a full skill rotation AND heal by the end of it.
or you can lose it after 2 sec, 3sec every 7 sec is way better
Yes, you lose the stabiltiy afer 2-10 seconds, but you dont die because you got additional 14-20k hp (actually double that because of the 50% reduction bug if it doesnt overflow).
When life gives you lemon, ask if its from a anime or manga.
Try running a 20,20,0,0,30 build.
You will notice the difference with near to death on.
Yes, you lose the stabiltiy afer 2-10 seconds, but you dont die because you got additional 14-20k hp (actually double that because of the 50% reduction bug if it doesnt overflow).
and after that (ds) u die ?
Or plain reward proper DS play by removing the 10s CD from exit and just leave the on enter one, thus if you were for 9s in DS pop out for life force, you get to DS again right away.
I really like this suggestion. Like, really really. The main reason I take NtD is to be able to get back into DS quicker (it’s noticeable when I can’t, for me), and this would really help solve that problem and allow for some new plays that I’d be excited to run.
I sort of think that the period of being out of DS is supposed to be a Necro’s “vulnerability” period, so I doubt they’ll do it. A guy can dream, though. At least then, people might be justified in calling LF a second health bar, if we could use it more as such.
Alduin Nightsong, 80 Human Necro
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
Foot in the Grave is already good without near to death. It’s about 30% stability uptime (excluding the DS cast delay). Near to Death takes it to 40% and we’re not even counting boon duration.
If Furious Demise lasted longer NtD might be better though.
It’s not and I’m not having this argument again.
Thank God you’re not the only one in this thread. Never really understood why people feel like posting when they have nothing to say, but alas thanks for your useful input.
My point is I disagree with the assumption that the traits were balanced around assuming NTD is taken because most work fine without it with the blatant exception of the Weakening Shroud nerf. If you want a example of bad design of this kind, it would be ranger signets which are pretty mediocre and almost designed around taking a grandmaster trait. Near to Death doesn’t even scrape the barrel for worst trait for necros. We have an entire line (Blood) that could follow the logic in the OP and actually be highly agreeable. For example, bloodthirst was adjusted according to the assumption it’d always be taken with other siphoning traits. And thus they remain so bad that nobody cares.
It’s not an assumption. Whenever ANet posts about DS trigger traits they bring up Near to Death as a balance factor. Every single DS trigger trait was balanced to be average with NTD and ends up subpar without it.
The same is applied to all life stealing skills/traits and bloodthirst.
3 sec stability on entering DS is awful since 3 seconds are barely enough time to complete 2-3 casts of anything and you sacrifice our only damage avoidance skill for the next 7 seconds, assuming NTD. No other class has to make a choice of uninterruped short time for taking all incoming damage in the face or being actually able to avoid damage. Never mind that there’s an actual resource associated with being able to use it.
% of uptime is a lot less important than actual continuos uptime for stability, just ask yourself what is better, 3 sec stability every 7 seconds or 20 seconds of stability every 80 seconds? I’d take the 20 seconds even though it’s proportionately less, since with 20 seconds I can do a full skill rotation AND heal by the end of it.
You know, Near to Death was once a GM trait and was mutually exclusive with FITG. When it got moved down to Master, FITG was adjusted to take NTD into account. Oh wait, no it wasn’t.
And sure, 3 seconds isn’t that much, but it’s still fairly useful to block incoming CC if you know it’s coming, you know for what DS was inteded to do.
For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards,
for there you have been and there you will long to return.
for there you have been and there you will long to return.
Its highly beneficial for DS flash builds. Think about other builds other than just your own when judging traits…
If the on entrance/on exit traits were balanced outside of NtD, then flashing builds would stay the same, and other builds would be buffed instead.
I would rather they add NtD to Last Gasp in the minor master for Soul Reaping and make it an inherent CD reduction for putting 15 points into the trait line. The balance team keeps emphasizing how they want Necromancers in DS as much as possible but the CD is a real barrier.
Or plain reward proper DS play by removing the 10s CD from exit and just leave the on enter one, thus if you were for 9s in DS pop out for life force, you get to DS again right away.
I like this idea, too. The cooldown only starting after exiting the transformation feels weird. If anything, DS should be inherently balanced by LF generation: you don’t get LF in DS, so you have to pop out of DS in order to generate more.
Of course, this would require the devs to look at the drastic differences between builds and how LF is generated. But, since that requires more work, they’ll just stick with the cooldown and call it a day. Or, even worse, they’ll throw a hard cap on LF generation, and then you might as well just have a cooldown.
It is kind of funny with the way condi builds go: to generate life force, they need to take soul marks, and soul marks competes with NtD.
I don’t have opinions. I only have facts I can’t adequately prove.
You know, Near to Death was once a GM trait and was mutually exclusive with FITG. When it got moved down to Master, FITG was adjusted to take NTD into account. Oh wait, no it wasn’t.
And sure, 3 seconds isn’t that much, but it’s still fairly useful to block incoming CC if you know it’s coming, you know for what DS was inteded to do.
It was adjusted by decreasing the NtD cooldown reduction from 5 to 3 seconds, because of FitG.
And 3 seconds is a pitance for the class that’s supposed to face tank incoming attacks since it has no active defense skills, outside of DS. Which is itself very limited by resource generation and the amount of traits tied into triggering it causing it to go on CD so you get their effects. This means that often enough, if you use DS to trigger traits it’s on when you need it to tank hits.
The only use I know of for FitG is for shroud stomping, that’s really it.
NtD is a mediocre trait that ends up limiting play styles because ANet always balances our class on fringe and unlikely best case scenarios.
Attrition – A pretty name for taking longer than anyone else to kill something.
% of uptime is a lot less important than actual continuos uptime for stability, just ask yourself what is better, 3 sec stability every 7 seconds or 20 seconds of stability every 80 seconds? I’d take the 20 seconds even though it’s proportionately less, since with 20 seconds I can do a full skill rotation AND heal by the end of it.
This pretty much says it all.
Poxheart
Knights of the WhiteWolf
Knights of the WhiteWolf
err… math time.
My stability, fury, retal and weakness just got a fat uptime boost.
umad?AAAAAND i kill you since you are using ds incorrectly.
I heard its possible to use a mechanic for more then 1 thing at a time.
umad?
Team Deathmatch for PvP – Raise the AoE cap for WvW – More unique events for PvE
If Near to Death didn’t exist, then traits wouldn’t be balanced around Near to Death, and the end result would be that traits based on entering/leaving DS would be more useful for every build.
Wtf? Is this a troll post or what?
Team Deathmatch for PvP – Raise the AoE cap for WvW – More unique events for PvE
% of uptime is a lot less important than actual continuos uptime for stability, just ask yourself what is better, 3 sec stability every 7 seconds or 20 seconds of stability every 80 seconds? I’d take the 20 seconds even though it’s proportionately less, since with 20 seconds I can do a full skill rotation AND heal by the end of it.
kitten that is the most incorrect statement I have ever heard. How many people actually believe this?
Do you realize that plenty of builds will remove boons?
Do you realize that plenty of players might just run away to waste your stability?
Do you realize that plenty of builds have cc that can lock you out of the fight after your stability has ended?
Team Deathmatch for PvP – Raise the AoE cap for WvW – More unique events for PvE
% of uptime is a lot less important than actual continuos uptime for stability, just ask yourself what is better, 3 sec stability every 7 seconds or 20 seconds of stability every 80 seconds? I’d take the 20 seconds even though it’s proportionately less, since with 20 seconds I can do a full skill rotation AND heal by the end of it.
kitten that is the most incorrect statement I have ever heard. How many people actually believe this?
Do you realize that plenty of builds will remove boons?
Do you realize that plenty of players might just run away to waste your stability?
Do you realize that plenty of builds have cc that can lock you out of the fight after your stability has ended?
Do you realize that I can also come up with meaningless examples that show someone I disagree with is wrong without actually making any decent arguments because I have none?
Attrition – A pretty name for taking longer than anyone else to kill something.
Just ignore Stand the Wall. He’s proven that he is determined to provide no value to the discussion at hand, and has demonstrated that he only understands numbers and twisting arguments to suit his needs, not actual analysis of the game or the gameplay itself.
I’d love to meet a Necro who uses DS flashing in PvP. Just screams free kill.
Alduin Nightsong, 80 Human Necro
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
% of uptime is a lot less important than actual continuos uptime for stability, just ask yourself what is better, 3 sec stability every 7 seconds or 20 seconds of stability every 80 seconds? I’d take the 20 seconds even though it’s proportionately less, since with 20 seconds I can do a full skill rotation AND heal by the end of it.
kitten that is the most incorrect statement I have ever heard. How many people actually believe this?
Do you realize that plenty of builds will remove boons?
Do you realize that plenty of players might just run away to waste your stability?
Do you realize that plenty of builds have cc that can lock you out of the fight after your stability has ended?
Hmm, odd, Balanced Stance and Armor of Earth seem to not only be viable, but be quite powerful while following this formula. Meanwhile, Foot in the Grave is rotting in the ninth circle of Grenth. Funny how that works, eh?
Scrubbiest Necro NA.
% of uptime is a lot less important than actual continuos uptime for stability, just ask yourself what is better, 3 sec stability every 7 seconds or 20 seconds of stability every 80 seconds? I’d take the 20 seconds even though it’s proportionately less, since with 20 seconds I can do a full skill rotation AND heal by the end of it.
kitten that is the most incorrect statement I have ever heard. How many people actually believe this?
Do you realize that plenty of builds will remove boons?
Do you realize that plenty of players might just run away to waste your stability?
Do you realize that plenty of builds have cc that can lock you out of the fight after your stability has ended?Hmm, odd, Balanced Stance and Armor of Earth seem to not only be viable, but be quite powerful while following this formula. Meanwhile, Foot in the Grave is rotting in the ninth circle of Grenth. Funny how that works, eh?
I can almost guarantee he doesn’t even use FITG. If it was a stun break with 3 seconds of follow-up stability, I might change my tune. Being a completely anticipatory 3 seconds of stability, though, might as not exist for the amount of reward you get for the risk in taking 30 points in Soul Reaping just for it. Especially when you could have 50% crit while in DS.
Alduin Nightsong, 80 Human Necro
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
Alright my previous statement was a little aggressive and uncalled for.
Yeah I twist numbers to suit myself, and while I went a little over the top, doesnt everyone with an opinion do this to an extent? I really love the trait, I don’t want to see it removed.
So what if I flash DS? My deaths have no impact on how you play, but nerfing or flat out removing near to death has an impact on mine.
If you want to completely remove a trait, remove fear of death and boot near to death to adept. Now you have a free master trait to do what you want with and everyone wins.
Team Deathmatch for PvP – Raise the AoE cap for WvW – More unique events for PvE
To be clear, I love Near to Death, and I make sure to always run it while PvPing . I don’t flash DS, but the shortened cooldown has been influential in my survival on many occasions.
I don’t want to see it removed either, and I think calling it the worst trait ever is hilariously inappropriate, borderline debauched.
However, I have spent a lot of time developing a double-check part of myself that refuses to run with numbers that I twist to any degree. If I have to twist something, then it means I’m probably wrong, and I’ll happily reanalyze my opinion until it jives with the data. It probably helps that I’ve spent 6 years as an analytics consultant, too. I’ll always strive to twist theories to suit facts instead of facts to suit theories, and I hold everyone I talk to in any fashion accountable for their opinions.
If you can defend it, great. In fact, I already know what your defense is of FITG, and I don’t necessarily disagree. It just doesn’t suit my playstyle. I was probably overly aggressive in return, but refusing to acknowledge the pitfalls doesn’t mean they don’t exist.
Alduin Nightsong, 80 Human Necro
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”
Near to death is fine. It could of been implemented in a different way sure. But its fine as it is. Only issue is weakening shrouds nerf was weighted a little too much on the assumption of using near to death. But thats easily rectified with a 1 second buff to the weakness duration. The other flash skills were balanced around old near to death (50% cd reduction). So actually flash builds were already hit quite hard months ago.
Spoj is right, the nerf to NtD and bringing it down to master really hurt flashing builds. Granted, I think it was a good change, but the other things need to be brought up.
Personally I think there are far worse traits, but a minor additional effect tied to it would be quite nice, like 5% less damage taken while in deathshroud.
I love this trait, both in PvE and sometimes in PvP.
I don’t usually take it with my 30 SR builds, but with my dagger crit pvp builds flashing DS is fine as long as you have backup defensive cooldowns available. High uptime on Fury and the damage/weakness from auto EB is great.
2x 80 Necro, 80 Ranger, 80 Thief