Necro DPS "Bad" ?
Theres some stuff on the DnT forums i believe. This was something i found immediately. I know theres more somewhere on that site.
Theres also a calculator website but i dont remember the address. That should be linked somewhere on DnT’s site as well.
Here’s the calculator.
http://gw2dps.david-reess.de/
That calculator is weird and sketch O.o where are the numbers coming from, how does any of this work. Why is food not standardized? Where are the assumptions about might coming from? Is spicy beans bowl of sweet and spicy beans? So far from a scientific look at necro dps. This is clearly making a lot of behind the sences assumptions about builds / rotations and calculations. DPS over what time frame? Burst dps over 10 seconds is differnt than prolonged dps over a minute.
That calculator is weird and sketch O.o where are the numbers coming from, how does any of this work. Why is food not standardized? Where are the assumptions about might coming from? Is spicy beans bowl of sweet and spicy beans? So far from a scientific look at necro dps. This is clearly making a lot of behind the sences assumptions about builds / rotations and calculations. DPS over what time frame? Burst dps over 10 seconds is differnt than prolonged dps over a minute.
It literally links you to the spreadsheet used. The DPS calculations are under a 30s period. The assumptions are sound.
Yes its a calculator with certain build choices. So certain food is assumed (it uses best food for each build). As far as i can remember that is repeatable sustained dps. The might and vuln is calculated by totalling up the average group might/vuln from the composition. You can see if you select phalanx warrior in 1 of the slots then might and banners are completely covered.
So if you want to compare builds. Set it up as phalanx warrior, ranger and 2 engis. Then use the 5th slot to check various class/builds.
(edited by spoj.9672)
I am always wary of calculators. They present ideal numbers. In this case, the calculator assumes 100 per cent dps time and does not count healing, dodging,and res’ing time, nor does it count might or other boon sharing.
Your own empirical results are probably better.
nor does it count might or other boon sharing.
:^)
The only thing it doesnt factor in is frost spirit. Not sure if spotter gets added in. But banners definitely get included when a warrior is selected.
Dodging, healing and res’ing are irrelevant. This just shows ideal numbers in optimal situations. It can be used to give a good estimate and comparison between builds and classes. Obviously in game you will see different results. But with so many variables, ideal controlled calculations are the best way to compare.
(edited by spoj.9672)
The calculator aside, there have been videos on this that touch on it not so much being the lack of damage but the lack of “other things” that is why the Necromancer is not as “valuable” as something like the “3 Kings of All Metas” (Elementalist, Guardian, Warrior).
- Elementalist is providing Fury, Might, Heals, Regeneration, Cleanses, Blinds, CC, etc. while outputting the same or better damage.
- Guardian is providing Reflects, Projectile Blocks, Aegis, Protection, Might, etc. while outputting the same or better damage.
- Warrior is providing Might, Fury, Banners, Vulnerability, etc. while outputting the same or better damage.
A Necromancer isn’t bad. You’re just stuck in the same place as Ranger and others … others just do the same as you and then some more.
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Try your best to not make mistakes, but, when you do make mistakes, learn from them.
Better yourself.
That calculator is weird and sketch O.o where are the numbers coming from, how does any of this work. Why is food not standardized? Where are the assumptions about might coming from? Is spicy beans bowl of sweet and spicy beans? So far from a scientific look at necro dps. This is clearly making a lot of behind the sences assumptions about builds / rotations and calculations. DPS over what time frame? Burst dps over 10 seconds is differnt than prolonged dps over a minute.
It literally links you to the spreadsheet used. The DPS calculations are under a 30s period. The assumptions are sound.
I’ve already read over that. The dps under 30s period was not stated. I still argue that sweet and spicy beans is an odd choice. The rotations arnt stated explicitcly, just referenced, etc. Blanket generic calculators are stupid.
The calculator aside, there have been videos on this that touch on it not so much being the lack of damage but the lack of “other things” that is why the Necromancer is not as “valuable” as something like the “3 Kings of All Metas” (Elementalist, Guardian, Warrior).
- Elementalist is providing Fury, Might, Heals, Regeneration, Cleanses, Blinds, CC, etc. while outputting the same or better damage.
- Guardian is providing Reflects, Projectile Blocks, Aegis, Protection, Might, etc. while outputting the same or better damage.
- Warrior is providing Might, Fury, Banners, Vulnerability, etc. while outputting the same or better damage.
A Necromancer isn’t bad. You’re just stuck in the same place as Ranger and others … others just do the same as you and then some more.
This is correct. You dont take classes to dungeons because they do DPS. You take them because they do DPS and something else. Condi cleanse, fury, might, stun/cc, damage mitigation, stealth, quickness, SOMETHING to make your class useful. Necro only does dps, and does it supbar. Its ability to buff allies or to debuff targets is either poor,or other classes do it better.
Use your brain and create compositions which cover all required utility and buffs and then compare dps between those compositions. Thats the purpose of the calculator. Its a useful tool. It doesnt factor everything in. But it doesnt need to…
Its a tool to check the dps of your group. Its as simple as that. Its good at what it does. That might not be what you want. But thats your problem.
(edited by spoj.9672)
This is know, our dps is subpar at best and groups don’t need boon stripping in pve, nor do our cc conditions work, nor do we have any fields, clears, etc. there is no point in pointing this out over and over again. 3 years we have been doing this and for 3 years the dev’s have stated we are fine, we are in a good place, we don’t want the necro to bring group support, or utilities, blah blah kittening blah.
It’s almost the same with reaper but we will be able to bring chill. Thus I hope that chill will actually affect and stick on the bosses because I’m tired of the majority of my utilities and conditions being useless in boss fights etc. without that, can someone tell me what reapers will bring to the group? Chill and some ice fields?
I’ve already read over that. The dps under 30s period was not stated. I still argue that sweet and spicy beans is an odd choice. The rotations arnt stated explicitcly, just referenced, etc. Blanket generic calculators are stupid.
It is however very well laid out, detailed information is also provided on a post on the site, and though outdated (july 2014 I believe) it provides the op with a decent understanding of where the Necromancer stands in terms of DPS like he asked.
Use your brain and create compositions which cover all required utility and buffs and then compare dps between those compositions. Thats the purpose of the calculator. Its a useful tool. It doesnt factor everything in. But it doesnt need to…
Its a tool to check the dps of your group. Its as simple as that. Its good at what it does. That might not be what you want. But thats your problem.
No, I understand what you’re saying, its just strange to use in a discussion like this when it counts differnt levels for personal might when in reality everyone would likely have 25 stacks. It counts differnt foods, when in reality most people all just use the same food. It may be a useful tool, but first off, its less than helpful here where you need either more controlled numbers, or to take real world norms into account. More over, it straight up doesnt matter since DPS isnt the main limiting factor.
So yes, it is not what I want or am looking for, and that may well be my problem.
This is know, our dps is subpar at best and groups don’t need boon stripping in pve, nor do our cc conditions work, nor do we have any fields, clears, etc. there is no point in pointing this out over and over again. 3 years we have been doing this and for 3 years the dev’s have stated we are fine, we are in a good place, we don’t want the necro to bring group support, or utilities, blah blah kittening blah.
It’s almost the same with reaper but we will be able to bring chill. Thus I hope that chill will actually affect and stick on the bosses because I’m tired of the majority of my utilities and conditions being useless in boss fights etc. without that, can someone tell me what reapers will bring to the group? Chill and some ice fields?
Chill, Ice Field, more blinding, increased dps. More importantly to keep an eye on is the reworks coming to blood magic trait line. Knowing Anet, it could wind up being negligible. If we do get a decent Vampiric Aura though thats grants life siphons to party members as well, then assuming the numbers are decent that means we would finally bring a unique form of damage boost and sustain to the group. Couple that with the possible higher damage of the Reaper Spec and the Chill it brings, and we may become a wanted member of a dungeon group, though I doubt it’ll make us part of any meta dungeon composition.
Use your brain and create compositions which cover all required utility and buffs and then compare dps between those compositions. Thats the purpose of the calculator. Its a useful tool. It doesnt factor everything in. But it doesnt need to…
Its a tool to check the dps of your group. Its as simple as that. Its good at what it does. That might not be what you want. But thats your problem.
No, I understand what you’re saying, its just strange to use in a discussion like this when it counts differnt levels for personal might when in reality everyone would likely have 25 stacks. It counts differnt foods, when in reality most people all just use the same food. It may be a useful tool, but first off, its less than helpful here where you need either more controlled numbers, or to take real world norms into account. More over, it straight up doesnt matter since DPS isnt the main limiting factor.
So yes, it is not what I want or am looking for, and that may well be my problem.
It isn’t what you are looking for, it is your problem, it is however very much so what the OP was looking for. Therefore, what you are looking for or want is of literally 0 value to the purpose of this thread which is why you are getting such feedback.
Use your brain and create compositions which cover all required utility and buffs and then compare dps between those compositions. Thats the purpose of the calculator. Its a useful tool. It doesnt factor everything in. But it doesnt need to…
Its a tool to check the dps of your group. Its as simple as that. Its good at what it does. That might not be what you want. But thats your problem.
No, I understand what you’re saying, its just strange to use in a discussion like this when it counts differnt levels for personal might when in reality everyone would likely have 25 stacks. It counts differnt foods, when in reality most people all just use the same food. It may be a useful tool, but first off, its less than helpful here where you need either more controlled numbers, or to take real world norms into account. More over, it straight up doesnt matter since DPS isnt the main limiting factor.
So yes, it is not what I want or am looking for, and that may well be my problem.
It shows total group dps, individual unbuffed dps and individual fully buffed dps. Your complaint about food doesnt really make sense. The best dps food is seaweed salad. Which is what most builds on that calculator are using.
PvE
Most of the PvE big damage that actually matters comes from reflects. Anybody who doesn’t have these is bottom tier.
PvP
Pvp isn’t really a DPS race & the thief is the king of the zerkers. Mobility means more in Pvp than anything else, and the necromancer does not have mobility.
WvW
Necromancer WvW DPS is considered high, because the tons of lifer ore that you get all the time lets you survive well in Zerker.
#24 leaderboard rank North America.
Don’t count on Chill to give you anything for DPS.
Bosses (& WvW keep lords) are immune to chill.
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I think i am just confused and misunderstanding / misusing the tool. I am sorry. I belive the point here is that in the end necros do less dps relatively speaking to other classes while also not bringing the utility others do.
The only thing it doesnt factor in is frost spirit. Not sure if spotter gets added in. But banners definitely get included when a warrior is selected.
Dodging, healing and res’ing are irrelevant. This just shows ideal numbers in optimal situations. It can be used to give a good estimate and comparison between builds and classes. Obviously in game you will see different results. But with so many variables, ideal controlled calculations are the best way to compare.
why do you say frost spirit isn’t factored? so the more than 10% increase in damage because of the ranger, comes from Spotter only?
PvE
Most of the PvE big damage that actually matters comes from reflects. Anybody who doesn’t have these is bottom tier.
What? no. If that was the case, the meta would be 5 guardians/mesmers.
Save for a few encounters, the really big damage that can end a combat in seconds comes from frost bow.
A Necromancer isn’t bad. You’re just stuck in the same place as Ranger and others …
No you are not. Rangers do almost the same damage as necromancers, until you factor in the party dps increase. It’s more than 10% per party member, and rangers accomplish it by just standing there. That means that rangers, account for around 40% more dps than necros.
(edited by Aenesthesia.1697)
I am always wary of calculators. They present ideal numbers. In this case, the calculator assumes 100 per cent dps time and does not count healing, dodging,and res’ing time, nor does it count might or other boon sharing.
Your own empirical results are probably better.
how can it take all those things you propose into account?
besides, burn phases are really important in this game, and you don’t heal/dodge/res during a burn phase.
and the fact it doesn’t count boon sharing is actually beneficial to necros, as we have zero boons to share.
The only thing it doesnt factor in is frost spirit. Not sure if spotter gets added in. But banners definitely get included when a warrior is selected.
Dodging, healing and res’ing are irrelevant. This just shows ideal numbers in optimal situations. It can be used to give a good estimate and comparison between builds and classes. Obviously in game you will see different results. But with so many variables, ideal controlled calculations are the best way to compare.
why do you say frost spirit isn’t factored? so the more than 10% increase in damage because of the ranger, comes from Spotter only?
No im saying that the calculator doesnt factor in frost spirit. Im guessing the guy who made it forgot. And yes it probably is just spotter. If you change to a ranger build with no traited spirit but more personal dps the group dps increases. So obviously something has been done incorrectly. Then again it could just be that its using a traited frost spirit even on builds that dont have it. Either way the calculator isnt perfect.
Don’t count on Chill to give you anything for DPS.
Bosses (& WvW keep lords) are immune to chill.
Nobody said anything about Chill contributing to DPS, and this conversation isn’t being limited to Bosses. Not to mention the effects of chill on said bosses could very change come HoT.
I think i am just confused and misunderstanding / misusing the tool. I am sorry. I belive the point here is that in the end necros do less dps relatively speaking to other classes while also not bringing the utility others do.
Yeah, we’re all in agreement on the end result.
I actually tested out Necro DPS awhile back.
Believe it or not, Life Blast spam with full Zerker and Runes of Strength does LESS damage than a Zerker Thief just using Dagger autoattack and NO MIGHT.
I once recorded them both at once, and manually wrote down the numbers for 30 seconds.
I do not have the exact numbers or videos saved, but just trust my word on this. Life Blast fully specced with Rune of Strength is approximately 1.4x weaker than a Dagger Thief with no Might using Dagger auto.
A Necromancer isn’t bad. You’re just stuck in the same place as Ranger and others …
No you are not. Rangers do almost the same damage as necromancers, until you factor in the party dps increase. It’s more than 10% per party member, and rangers accomplish it by just standing there. That means that rangers, account for around 40% more dps than necros.
Yep … and Warrior banners provide even more of a damage increase than Rangers do … so guess what happens? We get asked to play our Warrior … or replaced with someone that has one … unless the group is composed of your friends, of course.
Christian. Husband. Father. Friend. Developer. Gamer.
Try your best to not make mistakes, but, when you do make mistakes, learn from them.
Better yourself.
Try your best to not make mistakes, but, when you do make mistakes, learn from them.
Better yourself.
I actually tested out Necro DPS awhile back.
Believe it or not, Life Blast spam with full Zerker and Runes of Strength does LESS damage than a Zerker Thief just using Dagger autoattack and NO MIGHT.
I once recorded them both at once, and manually wrote down the numbers for 30 seconds.
I do not have the exact numbers or videos saved, but just trust my word on this. Life Blast fully specced with Rune of Strength is approximately 1.4x weaker than a Dagger Thief with no Might using Dagger auto.
This does not surprise me. LB is low DPS. I belive the order of necro dps is: Lich auto attack, dagger auto attack, life blast, axe/staff, scepter (because its a condi weapon)
Thief has way more trait modifiers and has both power and prec signets. So its not surprising. Unbuffed thief can almost keep up with a fully buffed warrior for dps. So yeah.
For reference see thief lupi solos versus warrior lupi solos (pre auto attack bug). Thief solos dont have all that might and banners but they arent much slower.
The only thing it doesnt factor in is frost spirit. Not sure if spotter gets added in. But banners definitely get included when a warrior is selected.
Dodging, healing and res’ing are irrelevant. This just shows ideal numbers in optimal situations. It can be used to give a good estimate and comparison between builds and classes. Obviously in game you will see different results. But with so many variables, ideal controlled calculations are the best way to compare.
why do you say frost spirit isn’t factored? so the more than 10% increase in damage because of the ranger, comes from Spotter only?
No im saying that the calculator doesnt factor in frost spirit. Im guessing the guy who made it forgot. And yes it probably is just spotter. If you change to a ranger build with no traited spirit but more personal dps the group dps increases. So obviously something has been done incorrectly. Then again it could just be that its using a traited frost spirit even on builds that dont have it. Either way the calculator isnt perfect.
well, probably the guy forgot to take the traited spirit damage increase into account. I mean, i still find it hard to believe that just by bringing spotter the dps gain is so high.
The meta party i found using the calculator would have a ps warrior, an ele, a thief, an engineer and…. a ranger!
oh, i also find it hard to believe that only engineers seem to be able to apply vulnerability with some consistency, and ps warriors seem to be the only ones that grant might with some consistency (while a scepter/dagger conjurer ele should be also more than decent at it).
Its an out of date calculator. These days vuln is done purely by glyph of storms rotation or an engi. Also phalanx warrior will use axe + mace to get slightly more average vuln than listed on that calculator.
But currently engi is the only one that can really do that much sustained vuln. Other classes can burst it pretty well. But for prolonged fights vuln is pretty low (you can blame that mostly on unshakeable). This will change with the core spec changes we are seeing though. Necro should be in a similar spot to engi for vuln after the changes.
(edited by spoj.9672)