Guild Wars 2

I don’t want to jump on the ele hate bandwagon, i want to take a look at a working tanky dps setup, offering great sustain and want to compare this sustain to a necro specc which should in my opinion offer similar healing capabilities. I am ok with necros limited access to boons and also with our horrible mobility.
Also i don’t want to dip into minions. They offer something like 80 healing per hit if traited and got the typical minion downsides.

The parameter: We got a simulated 1v1 combat encounter over 30 seconds. In this timeframe there exists no overheal and skills won’t be dodged. Both contestants use a valkyrie amulett with zerker gem 30 points into their vit/healing trait line, no sigils, no runes and got 30% boon duration from somewhere.

Starting with the ele:
Getting hit by some initial burst using one of 3 stunbreaks applying 12s regen for a total amount of 2436 healing, switching to water applying another 6s regen for 1218 healing, soothing mist stays for estimated 5s healing for 109*5= 545. Initial water attune (cleansing wave trait) following a cleansing wave and water trident heals for 1886+1886+2032=5804.
In a 30 sec battle you can pretty much guarantee 20 casts from the ele (they are more likely to do above 30) healing for 20*260=5200.
A second switch to water at the end applies another cleansing wave on switch + casting water trident equals another 3918. We ignore the additional healing through water attune and the applied regen, because battle is pretty much over.
So this is very bad math, we don’t state when things are done, the number of casts in this timeframe is way too low and we do not add the 260 healing per cast from signet to things like attuning to water and casting trident and cleansing wave and we ignore the passive healing from regen and soothing mists at the end.
But nonetheless this is a pretty doable scenario and also one that probably heals for more in an actual combat encounter.
What do we get in the end is a whooping 19121 healing.

Now lets move on to the necro:
We take Bloodthirst, Vampiric Rituals and Deathly Invigoration as traits and use 2 wells plus signet of locusts.
Start with the heal and using it ONCE while affected by 3 conditions: 5824+3*783=8173.
Our wells heal us for 10*(42+38)=800; signet of the locust heals for 1528 on activation 38 fom vampiric. Through with the utilities, move on to weapon skills
In this timeframe we can cast 3 life siphons for (33338)*9*3= 10017. Yep, that is the number from life siphon.
We also get to exit Deathshroud 3 times healing us for another 3*455=1365, also we get regen from focus offhand. 2 casts stacking max duration each equals 12s regen per cast. This applies 2*12*203=4872 healing. Then we consider atleast 10 hits with dagger autoattack: 10*38=380.
Sums up to 27173. Thats 42% percent more than the ele could do!

So what do we learn from that?

Passive heal from vampiric, vampiric Rituals and to some extend signet of the locust is close to useless.
Life siphon heals for a crapload over time but needs line of sight/ can be dodged/ interrupted and outdamaged too easily with its 3,5 second cast time.
If you want a maximized vampiric experience you should go for 15-20 points into blood magic and grab bloodthirst and vampiric(15pt minor).
What would i suggest: reduce immob duration on Dark Pact to 1,5 – 2 seconds and bring its cd close to Life siphon, reduce life siphon channel duration to 2-2,5 seconds while maintaining its 9 attacks then necro while be fine atleast in theoretical 1v1 skirmishes.

Also i inteded to do a more thought out version first but this got too much wall of text too quickly, so if anything is unclear feel free to ask.

EDITed in this afterthought:

1) Life siphon heals dont scale well: With 0 additional power and healing power you heal for 202 per pulse. If you could get bloodthirst without getting the healing power from the traitline you would be at 303 healing per pulse. Vampiric plus bloodthirst adds another 38 healing per pulse.

2) To buff Vampiric Life siphon needs to be reworked (it needs it anyways imo) because the heal you can get out of it is pretty impressing, but also to succeptible to everything closely resembling an enemy player.

3) Life siphon does no damage. Change it!

I agree that some of our life siphoning could use a buff/fix/change.

However, this is a terrible comparison and you’re going to get flak for it. You are comparing elementalists, with the highest (or second highest, next to guardians) healing in the game. Their sustain is based off of healing and then trying to maintain buffs on top of their newly refreshed HP bar. Necromancers sustain by keeping our opponent’s damage low, by using DS + LF gain to mitigate any bursts, with whatever life siphoning we have acting to heal up the extra bits. We also have huge heals in our dedicated heals.

We sustain differently, its not that they can do it better or worse, they do it differently. Their’s relies on using buffs and earth attunement to mitigate damage, and then water attunement to heal up; we use conditions and DS to mitigate damage, and then huge dedicated heals and small life siphons to heal up. Its just different.

Bhawb.7408:

We sustain differently, its not that they can do it better or worse, they do it differently. Their’s relies on using buffs and earth attunement to mitigate damage, and then water attunement to heal up; we use conditions and DS to mitigate damage, and then huge dedicated heals and small life siphons to heal up. Its just different.

These types of comparisons are done quite a bit on these forums. Its a shame because all they do is make it harder to have a decent discussion about our actual issues.

Also kudos to you Bhawb for pointing this out without flaying the OP. It makes these forums just that much more civil and enjoyable to be a round.

You have to think about the difference in hitpoint pools too. Probably 1/3 of the time all those heals aren’t going to be affecting you because you’re in DS so that cuts the amount. That 20k healing for elementalist is going to heal them to full almost twice over, likely triggering all kinds of ‘when hp reach x% this happens’ kind of traits. Whereas our 27k, maybe 18 of which actually affects us after you factor in time in DS, wouldn’t heal most necromancers up even once. Its completely different, Ele is far far far more efficient with the heals, with better cooldowns usually. The easiest way to fix the imbalance would be to simply make all the necro and pet (especially blood fiend) siphons scale with healing power, I can’t figure out why they won’t do this. If we take all those traits our damage isnt going to be great anyway, so why not let them help us survive to be the attrition class we’re supposed to be.

I am not quite sure what you guys want to tell me. That i can’t compare ele and necro healing values because protective boons like Protection and vigor make eles healing values actually higher would be my guess.
If that is the case ok but even it is not true, that eles heal for more than necros. Eles just heal more effective in regards to their total hp and their dmg mitigation capabilites.
Apart from that DS is to some extent comparable to the invulnerability skills from other classes and that is by design. Since you start a match with 0 LF you need to pay opportunity cost to build it up and this could mean using your auto attack after some initial burst attempt to even get to the 10% LF barrier to enter DS.

@Relair Most of the healing is direct healing from signet of the locust (1s cast), heal skill (~1s cast) and Life siphon (dagger2 channel) which is not affected by entering DS. This alone accumulates to 20k. The rest comes mostly from regen, so obviously some of it will be lost in DS but not everything.

And why can’t i compare those two things? If you got a weapon that has a lifestealing(healing skill on it) and a trait line for life leeching which is also pushing your healing, why can’t i take a look at other classes that do healing right and try to see if the values are right? From my point of view the values are right, just on the wrong skills, which are just too hard to use succesfully…

Bellamy.9860:

Both contestants use a valkyrie amulett with zerker gem 30 points into their vit/healing trait line, no sigils, no runes and got 30% boon duration from somewhere.

Just curious: why this setup?

Its not that you “can’t” compare these two things, its like comparing an off-road 4×4 with a track racing car. Is that track car going to drive far faster than your off-roader? Heck yes it will. What about once you go off-road though? That track car is going to smash itself to bits (or just be completely incapable of movement), whereas your off-roader will be flying all over the place.

Why? Because that’s what they are made to do. Elementalist’s are made to have high boon access, they are made to have strong heals, it is in their class design. However Necromancer’s have huge HP advantages over Elementalists. We also have access to poison, chill, weakness, vulnerability, cripples, and condition transfer that they just don’t.

For example, an elementalist is in game, how do they go about playing defensively? They use boons (usually via switching attunements and using earth attunement skills) to reduce the incoming damage, in the process of this they will also likely drop a few conditions through traited attunement switching. Once they start losing HP, they use water attunement skills to heal it back up, or their pretty weak dedicated heal.

Now a necromancer is playing, how do they go about playing defensively? They do it by applying poison so they enemy’s heals are 33% less effective, then apply chill so their skills take longer to come back up, weakness to stop dodge rolling, vulnerability to decrease how long they are alive by increasing our damage output, blinds to stop incoming damage, cripples to kite, and condition transfer/removal to stop it from happening to ourselves. We use corrupt boon/focus 5 to stop enemies from being able to buff themselves easily. All this time that our enemy is taking more damage, with increased CDs from chill, reduced healing, less survivability from less boons, etc. we are passively gaining HP with life siphoning, and we are storing up LF for DS (if you are playing right this doesn’t take too long to hit). Then when they burn a bunch of CD’s for a burst, we swap into DS, tank it all, and BOOM, they have burned CDs for absolutely no gain; isn’t that a version of invulnerability? And then when we are finally getting low in HP, we pop dedicated our dedicated heals (which have really short CDs, and the highest HP heal in the game), and are back at full again.

That is why comparing is bad. Elementalists are balanced to require those heals and boons to stay alive. Necromancers are balanced to need conditions and DS to stay alive. They are two different ways to reach the same conclusion.

Kyskythyn.6471:

Just curious: why this setup?

Because its a bad setup for a necromancer to stay alive, and a great setup for an elementalist.

So for those that don’t run dagger, Wells or waste locust on heals we’re looking at whatever we get from the heal skill and a negligible few hundo max from vampiric. That puts a more common Necro at less than half the healing of an Ele on average (range from 1/4 to 1/2).
Now I see a stronger argument for an increase in passive life steal.
“Attrition” with the same/weaker sustain to any other class, haha…

Brew Pinch.5731:

So for those that don’t run dagger, Wells or waste locust on heals we’re looking at whatever we get from the heal skill and a negligible few hundo max from vampiric. That puts a more common Necro at less than half the healing of an Ele on average (range from 1/4 to 1/2).
Now I see a stronger argument for an increase in passive life steal.
“Attrition” with the same/weaker sustain to any other class, haha…

Well, they have about half our life, so it seems fair to me.

You can’t compare apples to apples like this because it doesn’t factor the sacrifice of other areas. I have not run a full regen Necro build, but I would guess you would hit like a wet noodle, while regen ele’s still have pretty competent pressure damage, on top of being mobile as all get out. It’s really the mobility that synergizes so well with their regen because they can fully escape a battle any time they need to, and let that regen heal them up in quick order when not being hit.

So if anything our lack of mobility and escape would call for even greater regenerative abilities than most profs get, in order to sustain our attrition strength.

Why Valkyrie? Because it gives the same amount of healing power not because this is a suggested build. I just wanted to take a look at healing values and was kind of surprised about the healing output of Life Siphon and wanted to share it. It could potentially contribute to a huge amount of extra healing if its mechanic wouldn’t be that awful. Also it explains to some extent why Vamprici traits aren’t stronger than they are.
And thanks Bhawb for your insight.

Bhawb.7408:

Why? Because that’s what they are made to do. Elementalist’s are made to have high boon access, they are made to have strong heals, it is in their class design. However Necromancer’s have huge HP advantages over Elementalists. We also have access to poison, chill, weakness, vulnerability, cripples, and condition transfer that they just don’t.

While comparisons are bad between 2 different builds, the only condition that ele cant apply just as good as necros is poison and maybe weakness… but for that they have burn and multiple ways of hard cc in just weapons making your while point flawed again.

In general:
Also if classes should be compared at least do it in a way so that one isnt weak to the others strengths (lack of stability and cc for necro, boon removal and ability to be a one point fortress with max range projectiles for ele).
Mesmer-Ranger
Necro-Theif
Ele-Guardian
Warrior-Engie

I’m not sure Ele should be used as a comparison point because they may get some changes soon. Don’t we have a balance patch coming in February. They have been strong for a long time, but would be kind of surprising if they don’t get some tweaks. AoE damage at the very least we know is under the gun.

Andele.1306:

While comparisons are bad between 2 different builds, the only condition that ele cant apply just as good as necros is poison and maybe weakness… but for that they have burn and multiple ways of hard cc in just weapons making your while point flawed again.

Okay, lets say an ele stacks a bunch of conditions on me, I just transfer them back. An ele can use 5cds to force a bunch of conditions on me sure, but then I staff 4 and now they have all their conditions on CD, and I have all mine up, and the ele is still the one sitting around with all the conditions on them.

One does not simply out condition a necro, it just doesn’t happen.

lettucemode.3789:

Brew Pinch.5731:

So for those that don’t run dagger, Wells or waste locust on heals we’re looking at whatever we get from the heal skill and a negligible few hundo max from vampiric. That puts a more common Necro at less than half the healing of an Ele on average (range from 1/4 to 1/2).
Now I see a stronger argument for an increase in passive life steal.
“Attrition” with the same/weaker sustain to any other class, haha…

Well, they have about half our life, so it seems fair to me.

Oh, I agree, I just think the “attrition” label is ridiculous considering we have no sustained healing when not wielding a main dagger, if only DS wasn’t so terrible… The label is much more fitting of the Elementalist or Guardian.

Brew Pinch.5731:

Oh, I agree, I just think the “attrition” label is ridiculous considering we have no sustained healing when not wielding a main dagger, if only DS wasn’t so terrible… The label is much more fitting of the Elementalist or Guardian.

I don’t understand why people keep making this mistake. Just because someone has better healing does not make them an attrition class nor does having less healing over time make us a poor attrition class. There are MANY factors that go into outlasting opponents. We have a massive health pool, a second health bar that I can refill (in my opinion this should be weighted with all healing comparisons but rarely is), solid main heals and a large tool box full of ways to reduce incoming damage. How does that not equal attrition?

Focusing on healing as the end all be all of survivability neglects the layers and layers of design that goes into class balance. If you have a problem with our class lets identify an actual broad issue and discuss ways of solving it instead of zeroing in on one small, perceived discrepancy and missing the forest for the trees.

Bhawb.7408:

Andele.1306:

While comparisons are bad between 2 different builds, the only condition that ele cant apply just as good as necros is poison and maybe weakness… but for that they have burn and multiple ways of hard cc in just weapons making your while point flawed again.

Okay, lets say an ele stacks a bunch of conditions on me, I just transfer them back. An ele can use 5cds to force a bunch of conditions on me sure, but then I staff 4 and now they have all their conditions on CD, and I have all mine up, and the ele is still the one sitting around with all the conditions on them.

One does not simply out condition a necro, it just doesn’t happen.

Another fallacy since it seems i didnt explain as well, what i pointed out is that they do not lack the continous application conditions that you mentioned as a class strength for the necromancer, i did not say they would need to use them in combat that often since updraft earthquake and boon reapplication take care of the damage migration components. Also a as a ele you can remove 3+ conditions every 10 seconds so no, they wont stick around for long and also you did waste your stun break (or god forbid heal) and strongest mark what is in no way having all your skills up. Unless you go into zone bunker control mode (staying on 1 point with plague and not letting the ele force you to chase him or letting him knock you down in time for combo to go off), trying to outlast a ele is a very stupid idea.
*I even said that back in the days when people said ele are kitten that the kite control they give is just as strong as a necromancers or guardians zone control…

Andele.1306:

Another fallacy since it seems i didnt explain as well, what i pointed out is that they do not lack the continous application conditions that you mentioned as a class strength for the necromancer, i did not say they would need to use them in combat that often since updraft earthquake and boon reapplication take care of the damage migration components. Also a as a ele you can remove 3+ conditions every 10 seconds so no, they wont stick around for long and also you did waste your stun break (or god forbid heal) and strongest mark what is in no way having all your skills up. Unless you go into zone bunker control mode (staying on 1 point with plague and not letting the ele force you to chase him or letting him knock you down in time for combo to go off), trying to outlast a ele is a very stupid idea.
*I even said that back in the days when people said ele are kitten that the kite control they give is just as strong as a necromancers or guardians zone control…

I am interested in what you have to say, however I am having a hard time understanding your post. Can you clean this up a little?

Here is the main issue I have with the comparison. You put us in gear that would make us extremely weak compared to the ele’s lack of change by stacking that gear. The benefit of playing a Necro and the definition of attrition is that I can gear for damage, pick up the siphon traits, and use them to help me sustain my life.

With chill (perhaps the most underrated condition in the game) on a real fast turnaround, vulnerablity stacking, multiple ways to add mini heals from siphon on hit, siphon on crit, minions or wells siphon, plus enough condition removal and boon removal to keep pressure on anyone, we are the definition of attrition.

You are confusing a defensive playstyle with attrition. Defensive is twofold – protection and heals. Two classes excel at that. Attrition is removal of benefits and the ability to damage me while also supplying me with the ability to hit you.

A necro can spec offensively and still survive better than any class in the game bar none. An offensive specced guardian drops faster than a two dollar hooker on a 5 dollar tip. Every other class has severe tradeoffs when they go more offensive. We are an attrition class so our damage is built into the fact that we can turn your boons into conditions, stip your boons, move your conditions all while getting tiny little heals all fight long.

Andele.1306:

Another fallacy since it seems i didnt explain as well, what i pointed out is that they do not lack the continous application conditions that you mentioned as a class strength for the necromancer, i did not say they would need to use them in combat that often since updraft earthquake and boon reapplication take care of the damage migration components. Also a as a ele you can remove 3+ conditions every 10 seconds so no, they wont stick around for long and also you did waste your stun break (or god forbid heal) and strongest mark what is in no way having all your skills up. Unless you go into zone bunker control mode (staying on 1 point with plague and not letting the ele force you to chase him or letting him knock you down in time for combo to go off), trying to outlast a ele is a very stupid idea.
*I even said that back in the days when people said ele are kitten that the kite control they give is just as strong as a necromancers or guardians zone control…

Its not that elementalists lack conditions, they have plenty. But once you are actually equipped with your one weapon, you don’t have the easy access that necros do. Each attunement has maybe half the conditions that all necros have all the time. Even if you rapidly swap attunements, once you swap the conditions you applied with one attunement wear off quickly and you can never keep them up like a necro.

The difference is that every single build that a necromancer uses has lots of condition access. Axe/Focus has huge vulnerability stacking, cripple, and chill. Dagger/WH has immobilize/cripple/daze. Staff has bleed, poison, fear, and full condition transfer. Scepter/Dagger has bleed, poison, weakness, blind, 3 condition transfer.

Also, our staff/heal are only 25s CDs. That isn’t exactly long, it means every 12.5 seconds I can either: transfer all my conditions to you, or heal for 5.2k + 700 per condition. That is without any traits. Un-traited, elementalists have crap condition removal. Once you trait to remove conditions, you are losing access to something else you could have had with those trait points, whereas every necro can have a lot of condition removal with no investment, just a weapon or heal (which is the best heal ever anyway.)

Andele.1306:

Another fallacy since it seems i didnt explain as well, what i pointed out is that they do not lack the continous application conditions that you mentioned as a class strength for the necromancer, i did not say they would need to use them in combat that often since updraft earthquake and boon reapplication take care of the damage migration components. Also a as a ele you can remove 3+ conditions every 10 seconds so no, they wont stick around for long and also you did waste your stun break (or god forbid heal) and strongest mark what is in no way having all your skills up. Unless you go into zone bunker control mode (staying on 1 point with plague and not letting the ele force you to chase him or letting him knock you down in time for combo to go off), trying to outlast a ele is a very stupid idea.
*I even said that back in the days when people said ele are kitten that the kite control they give is just as strong as a necromancers or guardians zone control…

No you explained it well, but you were in accurate. The comment he is referring to is reapplication of conditions. No one reapplies and adds more conditions than the Necro.

You are correct that the ele and ranger can stack bleeds faster, but they do it within cooldowns. They do it all at once, then if it’s cleansed they have to wait until they can stack it again. While a Necro may not be able to get to 25 as fast as those two. If you remove my 10, I can reapply that 10 in 3 different ways while adding chill, vuln, and poison on limited cd’s, than hit you with a fear (if built for damage on fear).

You guys are both right but are talking about two different ways to build conditions. You are referring to speed of applicaiton, while his comment is about reapplying.