Guild Wars 2

Hi,

I started a conversation on the WvW asking how to counter a heavy regeneration build (so cleric gear with 1.9 – 2k toughness and high power or a mix of power and precision while sporting 18k – 20k HP)

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/wuvwuv/How-To-Counter-Regen-Builds/first#post1873882

Notice the Regen Ranger reply and video, I actually play Ranger at 80 healing+power focus and stated to level a necro now and asked:

Can a condition necro counter a regen ranger? I think its impossible but my necro is low level…

Any input?

In WvW I’m not an expert, but from my recent experience in it I’d have to say “Hell no.”

In tPvP, it’s a VERY difficult fight, often one you will lose. I had a build posted here a while back that would make short work of Rangers/Guardians/Thieves/Mesmers/Engineers that would pull that, but that was for PvP. In WvW, I’m afraid I don’t see any way to beat that kind of thing, or Thieves, for that matter.

I am not sure, but in theory, Necro have access to poison and chills which reduce the overall healing effect including regeneration, also rangers condition removal is worse that necro’s ability to apply these conditions again.

EDIT: necros remove boons on target, no boon= no regen.

Lala, the problem with boon removal is that alot of classes, namely Ele, Guardian, Ranger, and Engineer can all reapply them as fast as they lost them. Ranger even has strong passive Regen, which can get even stronger with certain runes.

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

In WvW I’m not an expert, but from my recent experience in it I’d have to say “Hell no.”

In tPvP, it’s a VERY difficult fight, often one you will lose. I had a build posted here a while back that would make short work of Rangers/Guardians/Thieves/Mesmers/Engineers that would pull that, but that was for PvP. In WvW, I’m afraid I don’t see any way to beat that kind of thing, or Thieves, for that matter.

Thanks for the input as a regen ranger thats my gaming experience in WvW as well, necro gets steamrolled every time they really have no place roaming in WvW against regen builds.

If you want to practice with me sometime, I can help you with Necro strategy ingame. WvW is completely different in many aspects, but PvP helps give a player very strong basics and intimate knowledge of how to deal with other players (and bad situations). (Won’t help you a single bit against faceroll classes/builds though)

Note following is from the time quite a while ago (like first 4 months post release when i was trying to get last 2 points in WvWvW on my necro for 100% so it might not work that way anymore and i know necros are in general there for zergs in wvwvw not roam).
Well necro with scepter focus can take on a healing ranger, problem is you find yourself in a stailmate till someone makes a mistake (DS takes care of pet damage, perma poison and corruption reduce renegen to nothing, but base heals + low over time damage from both = a GBA rpg 9999 hp wall hitting other 9999 hp wall for 1 damage and each heal for 10~20% at then end of each round with noone else in party to swap to)

Why do all of you guys insist on winning 1v1s in WvW?
There are certain builds which are impossible to bring down 1v1.
In sPvP, you can take down everything and anything because they are forced to dance around the edges of some small circles. In WvW, these builds can freely engage and disengage.
But now you have to look at what they can do.
Regen Ranger: Probably the strongest out of the bunch. Can solo Supply camps, heck, can even solo towers, if he somehow makes it past the door. Got almost no way of stopping you from running, if condition specced. If he’s specced GS/SB, you are probably screwed tho.
Bunker Ele: Annoying little bugger, but the most manageable out of the bunch, cause he’s riding a friggin firecracker. Can solo supply camps. Almost impossible to run from.
Bunker Guardian: Can solo supply camps. Sucks at anything else. Hard to kill alone, got no chance 1vX. Can not escape from you, can easily be outrun.
Permastealth Thief: Can annoy the kitten out of players and ultimately kill them. Might take on supply camps on his own, but runs a high risk of being killed, if a player shows up, cause he will have to use a huge portion of his skills. Hard to chase, manageable to get away from tho. Got nothing going for himself besides being an annoyance factor.

That’s pretty much the annoying “unkillable” classes.
Now how to deal with them? The answer is mostly “don’t bother”.
If you see them trying to cap a point or chasing a Dolyak, strike them, else don’t bother. You won’t kill them alone and they won’t kill you, if you are geared and specced halfly decent.
Go do something which actually fetches points for your team. Go slap some Yaks or go flip a supply camp.

Much like with tanky thief builds though, it becomes impossible to protect your yaks without a 10 man zerg on each yak, which greatly decreases the potency of your zerg somewhere else (like Eternal). It is easy to say just go farm or do something else, but if you need those yaks in the keep, you have to prevent that guy from killing the yak, and you cannot.

Just ignoring the guy isn’t an answer, its a cop-out. If you are wasting your time fighting him off in the bushes that is your own fault, but if he is positioned near yaks, you can’t ignore him. This class should be able to spec to even footing, bottom line, and right now it cannot in this case (and some other glaring builds).

They need to tone down the boon builds, basically, is the root of the problem, and I am sure they will in coming patches.

So if we must just ignore these “SUPER” build, what happens when every player on the server will play those?

If one ranger, thief or ele is not worth the time, imagine a group of them, hell a zerg of them. The answer will still be to run away from it? Builds like these becomes popular quickly in WvW, and for a reason: They’re borderline OP (Most peoples love the feeling of been OP, even more in a game, while necro are the opposite, we’re masochist). If there’s no answer to it, a fix is needed.

I think that every class should have a least a chance to beat them, equal skill and all that.

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

Lala, the problem with boon removal is that alot of classes, namely Ele, Guardian, Ranger, and Engineer can all reapply them as fast as they lost them. Ranger even has strong passive Regen, which can get even stronger with certain runes.

3 months ago before i took a hiatus, I think I touched on this manner on how some boons are so easy to re-stack that boon stripping has a low viability for a center toolset on the condition necro, and the only way to win is to overstack conditions on your target.

we have the same problems with regen/tank/crit guardians. its an unending battle.

Panhauramix.2784:

So if we must just ignore these “SUPER” build, what happens when every player on the server will play those?

If one ranger, thief or ele is not worth the time, imagine a group of them, hell a zerg of them. The answer will still be to run away from it? Builds like these becomes popular quickly in WvW, and for a reason: They’re borderline OP (Most peoples love the feeling of been OP, even more in a game, while necro are the opposite, we’re masochist). If there’s no answer to it, a fix is needed.

I think that every class should have a least a chance to beat them, equal skill and all that.

There is no way every player will play those, cause as soon as a server has more than 5% of its playerbase play such builds, that server is gonna lose horribly.
In teamfights, having proper combofields and the right extra effects is worth way more than a bit extra survivability.
Also, just let me throw in this example of a player, who just wants to waste other player’s time to make the overall performance of their server worse:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pfO5s9pi0c

That is why you shouldn’t bother too much with attacking full tank builds. They are built for turning fights around(or at least drawing it out endlessly).

@Pan, first off, roaming around 1v1 doesn’t do crap all for your server in those kinds of builds; against intelligent players. All it does is annoy pugs that just died and want to get back to fighting. Organized groups move in full teams, and a full team is going to wipe the floor with any single build that has the damage to do more than just bring them out of combat. Not to mention all those builds that aren’t worth the time 1v1 tend to hit like a wet noodle compared to actual teamfighting builds (compare the damage of those annoying ranger builds to a single well placed Epidemic).

I agree that they need to tone down the builds, but the point you were trying to make doesn’t work in WvW.

Show of hands, who’s outside T1 WvW and cares about winning?

Now, who’s in any Tier and cares about murdering random people in WvW?

o/

This is a game, it’s about enjoyment. Someone asks for help on doing something they want you shouldn’t disregard them because you think it isn’t worthwhile. You either help them or stay quiet.

And I don’t know many people that go into WvW saying “you know what sounds really fun, getting my kitten handed to me by a group because I’m running a terrible build for zerging”? His point was invalid, and I said why.

No, you said that since 1v1 doesn’t contribute to winning WvW it doesn’t actually matter and trying to do it, or worse actively enjoying, it’s wrong.

After that you tried to disagree with my post by ignoring what I said, as you usually do, and pulling a straw man by saying that since using such a build gets you killed by zergs, which I do believe is not that he’s looking for, it’s also wrong.

Some people play WvW for killing people, I do. So, that’s where Necro performance matters for us.

I said it doesn’t contribute to winning except against pugs. I didn’t say you couldn’t do it to have fun, I’m sure its plenty of fun to do, it still doesn’t contribute to winning.

Kiriakulos.1690:

Some people play WvW for killing people, I do. So, that’s where Necro performance matters for us.

Amen, they need to put ?pvp aside for a while and get WvW cleaned up.

They have different teams looking at each, although I’m sure they meet since as of now balance is done across the board (mostly).

Bhawb.7408:

They have different teams looking at each, although I’m sure they meet since as of now balance is done across the board (mostly).

I am sure there are a lot of shared resources between those 2 areas (pvp and wvw) as is evident by the content in the patches since release.

They have some shared I’m sure, but they have said themselves that the teams are separate across game types and also certain content (like Holiday events are separate from Living Story).

Let me ask another question, is there such a thing as a regen heavy necro build? Say cleric+soldier or shaman+soldier ? Dodge for blood and use dwyna?

Nem put out a good healing guide for Clerics and Necro. It looked somewhat interesting from a team perspective, but compared to the ele or guardian version, it was pretty lack-luster. Also it was completely reliant on Lich form for DPS.

I don’t see any healing builds being viable until they allow either a little bit of healing or a little bit of life force generation to work while in DS. Do something about that and I will be the first one in line for a full set of clerics to try it out.

Panhauramix.2784:

So if we must just ignore these “SUPER” build, what happens when every player on the server will play those?

If one ranger, thief or ele is not worth the time, imagine a group of them, hell a zerg of them. The answer will still be to run away from it? Builds like these becomes popular quickly in WvW, and for a reason: They’re borderline OP (Most peoples love the feeling of been OP, even more in a game, while necro are the opposite, we’re masochist). If there’s no answer to it, a fix is needed.

I think that every class should have a least a chance to beat them, equal skill and all that.

This. So much this.

The whole ‘1v1 doesn’t matter because this is a team game argument’ is a crock. 1v1 absolutely matters in every MMO I’ve played because if a class is worth 1.5-3x your class as demonstrated by not only their ability to dominate 1v1 but also their ability to 1vX then the game is going to devolve into battles between those classes, and they angle to get the most kills off the weaker classes like necro as we see happening in w3 and s/t primarily with ratios like 3:1 ele:nec, 3:1 mes:nec, 3:1 thief:nec.

That said, there are necro builds that can beat most thieves easily 1v1. However these thieves aren’t masters of their class. A master thief is going to kill any necro build 1v1 in most cases. Assuming equal skill and build knowledge on both participants the necro is going to get wiped. Go find necros dueling in S if you don’t believe me. After the half a day searching just to find one dueling in the first place that is…lol.

Rennoko.5731:

Nem put out a good healing guide for Clerics and Necro. It looked somewhat interesting from a team perspective, but compared to the ele or guardian version, it was pretty lack-luster. Also it was completely reliant on Lich form for DPS.

I don’t see any healing builds being viable until they allow either a little bit of healing or a little bit of life force generation to work while in DS. Do something about that and I will be the first one in line for a full set of clerics to try it out.

Difference between necro and other possible healers (except rangers) is that while the others can do bigger heals or a stronger burst, you can give one strong timed regenerative boost that is combined with the cc conditions necro naturally has, all on a 32 second cooldown and on that front only getting outshined if the ele has a energy sigil and the endurance regen food with perma vigor (what they can without real problems, but dont seem to for some reason) and when the guardian has his tome out.
The main difference again are that booning your allies is much more obvious than crippling your enemy damage output, in league its like comparing taric, soraka and sona to thresh, morgana and lulu; sure different and better teams will know what each of the characters worth its, but when someone who just wants to win by giving little thought into how each character works for fights, zone control, item/gold/item slot efficiency and actual love for the character/role they play (reason why you see something like 4 adc and 1 tank compositions in low tier games and angry junglers or support in higher tier games making them feel like a chore by not doing the specifics of the role even with communication and if asked politely, “since if they cannot get their role, thus their fun, noone should”).

God i really hope that people that read this know league or ill be the fool talking jibber-jabber…

Andele.1306:

Rennoko.5731:

Nem put out a good healing guide for Clerics and Necro. It looked somewhat interesting from a team perspective, but compared to the ele or guardian version, it was pretty lack-luster. Also it was completely reliant on Lich form for DPS.

I don’t see any healing builds being viable until they allow either a little bit of healing or a little bit of life force generation to work while in DS. Do something about that and I will be the first one in line for a full set of clerics to try it out.

Difference between necro and other possible healers (except rangers) is that while the others can do bigger heals or a stronger burst, you can give one strong timed regenerative boost that is combined with the cc conditions necro naturally has, all on a 32 second cooldown and on that front only getting outshined if the ele has a energy sigil and the endurance regen food with perma vigor (what they can without real problems, but dont seem to for some reason) and when the guardian has his tome out.
The main difference again are that booning your allies is much more obvious than crippling your enemy damage output, in league its like comparing taric, soraka and sona to thresh, morgana and lulu; sure different and better teams will know what each of the characters worth its, but when someone who just wants to win by giving little thought into how each character works for fights, zone control, item/gold/item slot efficiency and actual love for the character/role they play (reason why you see something like 4 adc and 1 tank compositions in low tier games and angry junglers or support in higher tier games making them feel like a chore by not doing the specifics of the role even with communication and if asked politely, “since if they cannot get their role, thus their fun, noone should”).

God i really hope that people that read this know league or ill be the fool talking jibber-jabber…

:) I have no idea what you just said

Cempa.5619:

Andele.1306:

Rennoko.5731:

Nem put out a good healing guide for Clerics and Necro. It looked somewhat interesting from a team perspective, but compared to the ele or guardian version, it was pretty lack-luster. Also it was completely reliant on Lich form for DPS.

I don’t see any healing builds being viable until they allow either a little bit of healing or a little bit of life force generation to work while in DS. Do something about that and I will be the first one in line for a full set of clerics to try it out.

Difference between necro and other possible healers (except rangers) is that while the others can do bigger heals or a stronger burst, you can give one strong timed regenerative boost that is combined with the cc conditions necro naturally has, all on a 32 second cooldown and on that front only getting outshined if the ele has a energy sigil and the endurance regen food with perma vigor (what they can without real problems, but dont seem to for some reason) and when the guardian has his tome out.
The main difference again are that booning your allies is much more obvious than crippling your enemy damage output, in league its like comparing taric, soraka and sona to thresh, morgana and lulu; sure different and better teams will know what each of the characters worth its, but when someone who just wants to win by giving little thought into how each character works for fights, zone control, item/gold/item slot efficiency and actual love for the character/role they play (reason why you see something like 4 adc and 1 tank compositions in low tier games and angry junglers or support in higher tier games making them feel like a chore by not doing the specifics of the role even with communication and if asked politely, “since if they cannot get their role, thus their fun, noone should”).

God i really hope that people that read this know league or ill be the fool talking jibber-jabber…

:) I have no idea what you just said

Translation:

Necro have good healing and make up for lack of buffs with debuffs.

People like buffs more because they’re more obvious, easy to use, and consistent.

Stuff in this “League of Legends” game is similar, but if you don’t play League that part is just meaningless gibberish.

Andele.1306:

Rennoko.5731:

Nem put out a good healing guide for Clerics and Necro. It looked somewhat interesting from a team perspective, but compared to the ele or guardian version, it was pretty lack-luster. Also it was completely reliant on Lich form for DPS.

I don’t see any healing builds being viable until they allow either a little bit of healing or a little bit of life force generation to work while in DS. Do something about that and I will be the first one in line for a full set of clerics to try it out.

Difference between necro and other possible healers (except rangers) is that while the others can do bigger heals or a stronger burst, you can give one strong timed regenerative boost that is combined with the cc conditions necro naturally has, all on a 32 second cooldown and on that front only getting outshined if the ele has a energy sigil and the endurance regen food with perma vigor (what they can without real problems, but dont seem to for some reason) and when the guardian has his tome out.
The main difference again are that booning your allies is much more obvious than crippling your enemy damage output, in league its like comparing taric, soraka and sona to thresh, morgana and lulu; sure different and better teams will know what each of the characters worth its, but when someone who just wants to win by giving little thought into how each character works for fights, zone control, item/gold/item slot efficiency and actual love for the character/role they play (reason why you see something like 4 adc and 1 tank compositions in low tier games and angry junglers or support in higher tier games making them feel like a chore by not doing the specifics of the role even with communication and if asked politely, “since if they cannot get their role, thus their fun, noone should”).

God i really hope that people that read this know league or ill be the fool talking jibber-jabber…

I played LoL so I follow your point, but the difference is the power of those debuffs and the inability for our heals to actually heal us (like the DS 4 chain heal, and any regen while in DS). Our debuffs in a clerics build are not destructive enough to even matter with how prevasive the condition removal is, while boons and better healing on classes that are zerking or knights or valks are going to be a better fit.

Full uptime regeneration is not that big a deal, it really isn’t, and other classes can do that or almost do that in a larger aoe easier. We cannot even regenerate our allies without a mob and everyone near that mob (and mark). While the siphon and DS4 heals are ok, they don’t scale, so why waste time with healing gear anyways.

Basically you are taking healing gear for well of blood, which requires everyone to group together (which could be a disaster), mark of blood (which has the same requirement, and could overlap with someone else already casting regen), and the heal from leaving DS. That is hardly enough for me to want to spec for healing.

The massive healing from well of blood is the only thing that makes that feel powerful, because of its great scaling, but it is limited like all necro skills in being a locked position skill (like spectral wall). Ele heals (some) move with the ele for the most part, same with guardian heals.

Nothing wrong with a support necro, I would just prefer to play it with a much strong emphasis on debuffs and cond. damage and/or wells, as opposed to overloading healing power for a limited effect.

This is how I thought a life siphoning build would play out, too bad it fell short at the part where my face tanking ability prevented me from healing. On paper our healing seems fairly decent, but it’s honestly a trade off with how immobile it makes us to use it.

Monoman.2068:

This is how I thought a life siphoning build would play out, too bad it fell short at the part where my face tanking ability prevented me from healing. On paper our healing seems fairly decent, but it’s honestly a trade off with how immobile it makes us to use it.

I feel the same way man. I’ve tried regen/siphon builds on my Necro and they just fall short. Meanwhile going up against a regen ranger with overpowered regeneration as a Necro without Corrupt Boon or Spinal Shivers is just a losing battle. You know it when you’re at 50% health with heal on cooldown and hes at 3/4 hp just with regen. Lich Form or bust in my opinion.

why are u trying to take him down without a way to remove boons?
time to change your setup then if its those kind of people u want to fight.

im running corupt boon or the well that does the same depending on build, its also FUN to strip boons

Believe it or not, Boon Removal will not help you against a Ranger with a healing build.

We have some Regens sure, but most of it comes from abilities you cannot remove.

The way you counter regen builds in general is conditions and applying them constantly, or an obscene amount of burst.

Xsorus.2507:

Believe it or not, Boon Removal will not help you against a Ranger with a healing build.

We have some Regens sure, but most of it comes from abilities you cannot remove.

The way you counter regen builds in general is conditions and applying them constantly, or an obscene amount of burst.

Well said I just don’t think necro has either…Ranger can regen about 1000 HPS all the while the pet+bow is doing consistent good DPS with a mix of pet swap+QZ at right time with LB+SB and pet F2 and necro is toasted from range! Get close and say hello to a burst chain starting with blow back for almost half your HP!

Like you said regen comes from Signet+Trait+Mango+TU all of which can not be corrupted…Regeneration and protection are up lots so corrupt it once its up again in a few seconds. If that was not enough I use healing spirit for more HPS and cleansing.

Are you referring to a build something like this for Ranger regeneration? I’d note that it gives something around 650 health per second (which is still very impressive, I won’t deny!) but requires 1800 of its stat points (in a PvE / WvW context) to achieve this feat. After that, there’s not much room left for offensive statting.

What I’m getting at is that while that build is going to be incredibly hard to bring down, I can’t imagine that they’d have the damage to burst anyone down themselves. Maybe if their opponent was the epitome of glass, in which case a tanky player with piles of healing is something of a poor target for the glass cannon no matter what.

Edit: If I was going to try and counter that build a build based on constant high-value healing, I know that first and foremost would be poison. Probably a scepter, the lingering curses trait, and bonus condition duration to try and get 100% poison uptime with frequent reapplication.

Has anyone considered a chillomancer hybrid build as a counter to the regen ranger? Superior sigil of ice on the main hand of both weapon sets and hydromancy on the off hand, along with traiting for 400 toughness when channeling if running axe/focus and dagger/dagger or scepter/dagger would crimp mobility and cool-down. Ranger would still have knock-back, though, so the staff and Chillblains might be needed.

Utilities could still be wells, as suggested, but I have also been considering boons, of all things. Humes have Prayer to Lyssa, which has a crazy-short cool down along with short base boon duration. If I eat +boon duration food, instead of my usual offensive feasts, and use runes that also improve boon duration along with a little Death Magic traiting, that might be enough to counter something like the regeneranger.

I have far too many sets of clothes and weapons right now but am toying with the idea of boon armor to see how effective something like that really is. I do not know if Giver’s armor is worth wearing but I picked up a Tahlkora’s set with vit+/heal/cond. With enough vitality, healing, and boon duration Necro might just embarrass the regeneranger.

Another variation on that idea is to toss in a couple of minions, keeping well of power and well of corruption or darkness but it is difficult to give up too much of our damage output because we have such a challenge there to begin with.

Even with a boon build, I wonder if the best thing to do at the start of that fight would be to pop Lich or Plague form, first.

Softspoken.2410:

Are you referring to a build something like this for Ranger regeneration? I’d note that it gives something around 650 health per second (which is still very impressive, I won’t deny!) but requires 1800 of its stat points (in a PvE / WvW context) to achieve this feat. After that, there’s not much room left for offensive statting.

What I’m getting at is that while that build is going to be incredibly hard to bring down, I can’t imagine that they’d have the damage to burst anyone down themselves. Maybe if their opponent was the epitome of glass, in which case a tanky player with piles of healing is something of a poor target for the glass cannon no matter what.

Edit: If I was going to try and counter that build a build based on constant high-value healing, I know that first and foremost would be poison. Probably a scepter, the lingering curses trait, and bonus condition duration to try and get 100% poison uptime with frequent reapplication.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/ranger/Survival-Vid-vs-2-Thieves-Mesmer-all-80/first#post1881416

check out what Sarlack wrote (its actually his build I was referring too).