Guild Wars 2

Avruk.2953:

ronpierce.2760:

Avruk.2953:

Maybe for something completely different.

Dear Necromancers; Pay Attention:
1) is your foe crippled – axe training
2) is he below 50% health treshold – CtD; Siphoned Power, Chill of Death
3) is he have boons of some sort – Spiteful Talisman
4) if you see high grounds, try to fall down – Toxic Landing
5) is your foe poisoned – putrid defense
6) is your health below 75% – blood to power, quickening thirst
7) maybe it is below 50% – last gasp
8) your life force count too, you don’t want it below 50% – strength of undead
9) i’m aware that i missed something, but my clock shows 30% above 2pm treshold (night shift)

Maybe we are not the best condition proffession but definitely the most conditional one. It is a buff.

What? o.o

Sarcasm mostly. Don’t play UI they said.

Ok ok. You got me. I thought you were serious.

I was kind of serious. Some of this can be ‘comboed’ like save your CDs and drop them if your foe has less than 50% health. But all of that seems unintuitive and chaotic. You cant just pay attention to all of that what was mentioned. Sad face.

They should bring withering precision back with an icd per target, and put it in death magic maybe.

So I looked at a few of the power builds here, and what people were proposing to take given the proposed changes (I dont like running codi, so I wont comment). I thought after reading theirs, I would list mine and ask for suggestions/thoughts.

I usually run dagger/warhorn and axe/warhorn. The axe gives a little range when things go bad.
For utilities I’d run signet of spite (passive power), well of suffering( damage), well of darkenss(cover later), and lich.

For traits i would either run spite, cures, soul reaping OR spite, curses, blood magic.

In spite: Bitter chill, chill of death, close to death.

In Curses: chilling darkness, banshees wail, and i guess terror? I dont know how to handle the curses grand masters.

In soul reaping: speed of shadows, vital persistence, foot in the grave.

In Blood magic: blood thirst, Vampiric Percision, Vampiric Rituals.

First of all, well of darkness: By taking blinds apply chill, chill applies vulnerability, and well of darkness, you can stack chill for 8 seconds, vulnerability, and blindness, helping a little in survivability with chill and blind, helping a little in damage with vulnerability and helping to make sure the boss stays where you want it to stack and kill bosses.

Second: Soul reaping with speed of shadows and foot in the grave could give quite a bit of fury and stability uptime.

Third: Blood Magic might not be too terrible for a DPS build. You lose the fury uptime and 5% damage, but you gain life siphon on all hits, on crits, and on well pulse. Life siphon is armor ignoring damage, so little bits of life siphon here and there will add up quickily, and with the warhorn 5 skill hitting 15 times, and two wells pulsing, that should, in theory, be between 25 and 50 life siphons in close to 15 seconds. Its not over powered damage, but its a decent bit, possibly enough to make up for the loss of 5% damage from strength of undeath?

My problem with a lot of the other builds is recommendations to take spiteful talisman in spite, or weakening shroud in curses. I dont think the 6 seconds of weakness and bleeding every 25 seconds is super fantastic. Increased damage to foes with no boons may be better than vulnerability in parties that already stack ample vulnerability, but should your party be lacking, taking bitter chill will apply 25 stacks in 5 seconds for 8 seconds. (neither bitter chill or chilling darkness have an internal CD at this moment from the screenshots). Even if you take Spiteful talisman over Bitter chill, i think chilling darkness is a stronger skill than weakening shroud.

My biggest problem with necro skills on the hole is that im making awkward decisions to bring chill and vulnerability over that 5% damage so that i am not a greedy dps. Minor changes to deathshroud skills might make necros tremendously more useful, like Furious Demise being an AOE fury (though that seems too good), or Siphoned power being a better might stacker (2 stacks of might for 5 seconds on a 5 second CD is useless when phalanx warrirors exist). Deaths embrace is nice, but spiteful renewal will likely proc only once per dungeon boss. Necro curses was advertised as the “crit” line in the AMA live stream, but the grand masters have no crit traits. Blood magic can be twisted for a little extra armor-ignoring damage but in all likely hood it wont be enough added damage to make necros relevant, and the only skill im truly happy to have access too now is foot in the grave because it finally addresses necros total lack of a reliable stability skill.

The “changes” seem really boring. Most of the review seemed to be them saying things were the same as they are now. When I looked over Dulfy notes its like 2 changes. I just hope they aren’t finished.

The drop of Condi cap is good, what I wish they’d do is give a synergistic buff based on conditions. Say once an enemy reaches X amount stacks of conditions the Necro begins to apply something that increases damage dealt to them by 5% for X sec. So say if the trigger point is 25 stacks; the enemy gets 25 stacks of bleeding the necros next bleed stack applies the effect for (say) 5sec. If the same enemy gets 25 stacks of poison then the effect lasts 5 secs longer…. Or something.

Do something similar for Power builds that give allies might and fury on dagger crits.

The really need to sort out the class as Power Build/Minion Build/Condi Build/Blood build. Blood synergizing with all builds which adds protection/stability/life steal.

As it stands the class is kind of disorganized but I wouldn’t think it would take much time to fix if the effort was put into it.

Ragnar.1546:

The drop of Condi cap is good, what I wish they’d do is give a synergistic buff based on conditions. Say once an enemy reaches X amount stacks of conditions the Necro begins to apply something that increases damage dealt to them by 5% for X sec. So say if the trigger point is 25 stacks; the enemy gets 25 stacks of bleeding the necros next bleed stack applies the effect for (say) 5sec. If the same enemy gets 25 stacks of poison then the effect lasts 5 secs longer…. Or something.

Whenever they were talking about cross – line synergy in other classes, one way they accomplished this was by making a hard-to-get boon trigger a strong effect, then adding extra sources of that boon to other lines. Necromancers could probably do the same thing with Chill, Blind, and Retaliation.

Chill & Blind they’re already playing with, as we’ve already seen in Bitter Chill and Chilling Darkness, but there’s basically no way to trigger blind via traits. Chill’s only opportunity is the Spinal Shivers at 50% trait, which people already take just for the flat damage. And there’s currently no extra pay-off for retaliation. All of these seem like suitable ways to make other lines combo with Curses and Spite.

6/6/0/0/6 s/d staff looks like a lot of fun to me, good luck ever getting near me when your perma chilled.

Yeah Spite will probably end up being the 3rd condi tree, unless the elite has anything good for condis. The disappointing is it’s gonna be that almost by default, and despite the fact that Spiteful Spirit is pretty mediocre for a condi build.
If Unholy Sanctuary wasn’t so abominably awful that it makes Spiteful Spirit seem like the holy grail of grandmasters, Death would have been a viable alternative to Spite: the reduced damage from poisoned enemies adept is really interesting, and almost makes up for our kittened access to weakness!

Run Death Nova and Bone Minions in a Death Magic condi build. Don’t even need another minion.

Unholy Martyr. —- Since basic necromancer condition removal is awful, this needs to proc a second of resistance when it draws conditions (similar to the previewed Revenant skill) or it will not see play.

Necromancers have absolutely amazing condition removal, and it even got buffed (slightly).

Bhawb.7408:

Necromancers have absolutely amazing condition removal, and it even got buffed (slightly).

I wouldn’t say Necro actually has “amazing condition removal”. Their condition removal really comes in the form of a full clear and returns. They have good condition manipulation more than removal.

That said, CC itself is a good condition remover, very potent at what it does, but Power builds for instance, really dont have what I’d call “great condi removal”.

Power builds suck at condi removal. What kills me more than anything in WvW is perma immob spam. Seriously, if there’s ever a need for diminishing returns in this game, or “resistance”, immob is it. With the new revamp, there will be massive amounts of venomshare. Immob will get worse for everybody, and it won’t be fun. And I don’t care how many hp pools Anet thinks we have, nothing saves us when we can’t move on a class that has bad mobility & escapes in the first place.

I mean really, for a class that doesn’t get escapes and lack mobility, Death Shroud should by all means be immune to immob.

Sorry, I just really hate immob spam in WvW.

Bhawb.7408:

Necromancers have absolutely amazing condition removal, and it even got buffed (slightly).

Necromancer condition removal is awful.

All of it is high cooldown. Most of it has targeting restrictions, which is inefficient when all you need is a heal.

Staff 4 and consume conditions are good at removing a lot of conditions at once. They are not good at removing low duration spammable conditions.

Like the immobilize on 15 second cooldown that every theif is going to start using. Like the various taunts and fears. Like constantly reapplied burning stacks. Like the spammable cripples that other classes have, or even the new (rumored) chill on greatsword auto which will just wreck the long cooldown necromancer.

The new spite condition trait wolnt proc when you’re in trouble. Dagger 4 is slow and easy to avoid without even dodging, the signet isn’t taken by anybody now because of its terrible passive, the death trait is the best of the rest.

Pretty much every time i die in wvw, it is because im immobilized, not stunned, immobilized. Condition removals on almost every other class have caught up to and/or surpass the necromancer.

Bhawb.7408:

Necromancers have absolutely amazing condition removal, and it even got buffed (slightly).

Oddly, this doesn’t extend to group support. There, we have Well of Power, and that’s basically it. The passive pull style transfers are generally just not good.

Speaking of condition control, it occurs to me that if plague sig had it’s effects inverted (passive transfer 1 condition to enemy, active pull conditions from allies) it would actually have more utility.

Passive condi transfer to enemies is useful on it’s own, as both an offensive and defensive ability, and being able to control WHEN you pull conditions from allies (and a lot of them) makes it easier to take advantage of them with consume conditions/deathly swarm/putrid, as well as being a somewhat useful support tool.

War Mourner.5168:

Speaking of condition control, it occurs to me that if plague sig had it’s effects inverted (passive transfer 1 condition to enemy, active pull conditions from allies) it would actually have more utility.

Passive condi transfer to enemies is useful on it’s own, as both an offensive and defensive ability, and being able to control WHEN you pull conditions from allies (and a lot of them) makes it easier to take advantage of them with consume conditions/deathly swarm/putrid, as well as being a somewhat useful support tool.

It would actually synergise better with Unholy martyr aswell. I dont really get why we got a grandmaster which does the same as our signet but without the transfer.

And while im on the topic of Unholy Martyr. The trait itself is fairly decent. The problem is we have no way to get rid of those conditions other than blowing cooldowns. We have no trait synergy with that grandmaster. Our condition cleanse trait is triggered on DS entry and unholy martyr works after you are in DS. They are in the wrong order.

Shrouded Removal is nice as it is. But if it was switched to condi removal on DS exit it would synergise with Unholy Martyr. The problem with that is it might be a nerf in some situations. Such as large stacks of bleed so you need to cleanse fast but that means you have to put DS on cooldown when ordinarily you would of prefered to stay in DS for a bit. Although im curious what others think of switching it to on exit? Is the extra synergy worth it? Its only a nerf in very extreme situations.

The other solution to giving synergy to Unholy Martyr is to add a new adept/master trait in blood which gives us condi transfer in DS. I mentioned it before. But theres plenty of space for new traits like this in blood magic because most people seem to agree the life siphon traits need to be merged completely.

spoj.9672:

Shrouded Removal is nice as it is. But if it was switched to condi removal on DS exit it would synergise with Unholy Martyr. The problem with that is it might be a nerf in some situations. Such as large stacks of bleed so you need to cleanse fast but that means you have to put DS on cooldown when ordinarily you would of prefered to stay in DS for a bit. Although im curious what others think of switching it to on exit? Is the extra synergy worth it? Its only a nerf in very extreme situations.

The other solution to giving synergy to Unholy Martyr is to add a new adept/master trait in blood which gives us condi transfer in DS. I mentioned it before. But theres plenty of space for new traits like this in blood magic because most people seem to agree the life siphon traits need to be merged completely.

Why not have both? Change Shrouded Removal to remove a condition when leaving DS and add a trait for condi removal during DS in Blood Magic.

It could be made to remove/transfer 1 condition every 3-ish seconds (whichever would be balanced) while in death shroud (similar to the condi removal of Shadow’s Embrace of thieves). Or have a trait to make Tainted Shackles transfer all conditions to foes that end up caught with the immobilize. It fits the name of the skill, it’s conditional to not make it too OP and people will want to get away when they see you pop the skill, making it work as a defense mechanism, even if you don’t manage to land the immobilize in the end.

That way Shrouded Removal can still be useful for builds that like to flash their DS and there’s another option for builds that want to stay in death shroud for longer times.

Death shiver sets the precidence for pulsing effects in DS – I strongly approve of (most) DS entry traits be pulsing instead – this encourages and benefits actually staying in DS, instead of just pulsing it.

Foot in the Grave would actually be semi useful again, if it pulses – one stack of stability is a joke, but if it pulses every 3-5 seconds, suddenly it gives you a bit of staying power without making it too difficult to apply CC to.

Also while we’re still talking about conditions, can someone please justify why corruption skills still self inflict conditions, that isn’t simply ‘gw1 did it’?

Like really, only in the ideal world can you take advantage of the self applied conditions more then the odd chance.

So with that in mind, the self applied conditions are negative for the necro, therefore one would assume that the offensive part of the skill would have to be that much more powerful to compensate.

So I mean really, would anyone care (in the negative sense) if they just didn’t kitten yourself simply by activating?

spoj.9672:

War Mourner.5168:

Speaking of condition control, it occurs to me that if plague sig had it’s effects inverted (passive transfer 1 condition to enemy, active pull conditions from allies) it would actually have more utility.

Passive condi transfer to enemies is useful on it’s own, as both an offensive and defensive ability, and being able to control WHEN you pull conditions from allies (and a lot of them) makes it easier to take advantage of them with consume conditions/deathly swarm/putrid, as well as being a somewhat useful support tool.

It would actually synergise better with Unholy martyr aswell. I dont really get why we got a grandmaster which does the same as our signet but without the transfer.

And while im on the topic of Unholy Martyr. The trait itself is fairly decent. The problem is we have no way to get rid of those conditions other than blowing cooldowns. We have no trait synergy with that grandmaster. Our condition cleanse trait is triggered on DS entry and unholy martyr works after you are in DS. They are in the wrong order.

Shrouded Removal is nice as it is. But if it was switched to condi removal on DS exit it would synergise with Unholy Martyr. The problem with that is it might be a nerf in some situations. Such as large stacks of bleed so you need to cleanse fast but that means you have to put DS on cooldown when ordinarily you would of prefered to stay in DS for a bit. Although im curious what others think of switching it to on exit? Is the extra synergy worth it? Its only a nerf in very extreme situations.

The other solution to giving synergy to Unholy Martyr is to add a new adept/master trait in blood which gives us condi transfer in DS. I mentioned it before. But theres plenty of space for new traits like this in blood magic because most people seem to agree the life siphon traits need to be merged completely.

Signets don’t work in DS so inferior traits copy out of DS effects wasting slots,even in traits format they kittened up but they probably see it as genius. They need to reflect on their consequences instead of following a downhill path with bandages.

spoj.9672:

And while im on the topic of Unholy Martyr. The trait itself is fairly decent. The problem is we have no way to get rid of those conditions other than blowing cooldowns. We have no trait synergy with that grandmaster. Our condition cleanse trait is triggered on DS entry and unholy martyr works after you are in DS. They are in the wrong order.

Unholy martyr has incredible synergy with necromantic corruption if you’re a minion master.

While a few of the traits are nice I’m overall unimpressed.

They need to realize that death shroud is a failed mechanic & get rid of it.

It’s impossible to balance, gets progressively weaker the more enemies your fighting & the problems it causes prevent the necro from getting allot of things.

Once they get rid of it and create something else that revolves around life force the necro will be much better off.

striker.3704:

spoj.9672:

And while im on the topic of Unholy Martyr. The trait itself is fairly decent. The problem is we have no way to get rid of those conditions other than blowing cooldowns. We have no trait synergy with that grandmaster. Our condition cleanse trait is triggered on DS entry and unholy martyr works after you are in DS. They are in the wrong order.

Unholy martyr has incredible synergy with necromantic corruption if you’re a minion master.

If an ability, trait, resource, whatever in any context is only good if another ability / trait / resource / etc is used alongside it
Maybe it’s the second ability that’s useful, and the first is still just crap.

Incidentally, this is why I still can’t stand Chilling Darkness.

Softspoken.2410:

striker.3704:

spoj.9672:

And while im on the topic of Unholy Martyr. The trait itself is fairly decent. The problem is we have no way to get rid of those conditions other than blowing cooldowns. We have no trait synergy with that grandmaster. Our condition cleanse trait is triggered on DS entry and unholy martyr works after you are in DS. They are in the wrong order.

Unholy martyr has incredible synergy with necromantic corruption if you’re a minion master.

If an ability, trait, resource, whatever in any context is only good if another ability / trait / resource / etc is used alongside it
Maybe it’s the second ability that’s useful, and the first is still just crap.

Incidentally, this is why I still can’t stand Chilling Darkness.

The second ability is definitely what I consider the more useful of the two. You basically extend your time in DS and sit like that, and at the end transfer all your conditions with whatever skill you’d like. If you’re a MM, you can stay in DS a hella long time as long as you have minions out.

I know this is from a different game but I find it ironic that different developers managed to make a better version of the deathshroud mechanic for the necromancer in their game.
The necro in Skyforge also gathers lifeforce/souls while outside of deathshroud/lichform, gaining a shield when entering said form and massive lifesteal to recover their hp pool. Taking lethat damage also forces the necro into lichform for a short duration to give them a chance to recover hp.
Maybe Anet should take some ideas from it to truly make us an attrition class that they intended from the start.

Here’s a gameplay demonstration of the necro in skyforge
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3MDL0VBynk

Yeah, real ironic that a game just reaching closed beta stages might have noticed the problems of another game and used it as inspiration for balance in their own game.

After looking over the traits there are 2 things I really feel anet should buff; reaper’s precision and axe training.
The new axe training almost feels like a nerf because nobody wants to auto attack with axe and now the damage boost requires cripple. I’d like to see this trait buffed to where you actually want to take it over chill of death if using axe. Axe really needs something, I hope they don’t leave it as is.
For reaper’s precision I think this trait has a lot of potential synergy, especially with death perception since you can get 100% crit. I personally wouldn’t want it removed, just buffing the numbers to usefulness and possibly moving it away from curses line could really help this trait.