Guild Wars 2

Bas.7406:

@Manuver – The original base heal was 185 it is now 926. 185 to 926 is a 80 percent jump. As a sales guy, I know my profit margins. Think of it this way, you are selling something for 926 that cost you 185 you just made an 80 percent profit margin. It’s very simple take 926 and multiply it by .20 that gives you 185 all they did was take 185 divide it by .2 and that gave them an 80 percent jump.

Wait what?

If the original heal was 185, and it was increased by 100%, it would now be 370. The heal at 370 is twice as powerful as the heal at 185 (or 100% higher).

If I have 2 apples, and I divide by 0.2, I now have 10 apples. While 2 apples are 20% of 10 apples, 10 apples are not 80% more than 2 apples.

This was an increase from the original base heal on attack by 500%. Or you could say that the old heal (185) was 20% of the new heal (926).

Not sure how you are getting 80% increase out of that. I see what you did with the math, but it isn’t right as far as I can tell… In either case it is a huge buff, massive, to something that needed it. Too bad it doesn’t also heal itself on attack as well.

It is an 80% jump if you based the % on the new base figure (926). It is a 500% jump if you base the % on the original base figure (185). I am not sure that they really intended a 500% jump over the old base and I think someone in ANet may have mixed up the base figures. What’s the odds on an “adjustment”?

Do you guys think axe is going to be viable now with the extra #2 damage? You can stack vuln easier with the #1 buff but I am worried that #2 is too easily evaded especially considering only the last two ticks really do significant damage. Thoughts? I really like the kiting ability of axe (especially coupled with #5 focus) and love to couple it with a heavy DS build.

EDIT: I should mention that the focus of my question is pvp/wvw.

@Bas: I will certainly try minions in a variety of more intense situations. In dungeons, I typically trait for condition high damage so so changing to minions is sub-optimal. Staff and S/D are my primary dungeon weapons and I switch between BiP, Epidemic, swiftness, and several Wells for group support. Minions are about improved dps or cannon fodder and offer less support for the rest of the group. Nevertheless, I still use Flesh Golem on occasion when a knock-down is needed more than another elite skill. In normal PvE, I use minions pretty frequently to make up for slow condition damage build-up. I look forward to seeing if the improved minion heals fully make up for reduced group support via reduced fight time and minion face-tanking.

One thing I would like to point out is that minions do not dodge so, like many others here, i have a harder time using them against bosses that can spam 1-shot kills. Hope the update improves their resilience.

I wish or Fear was better, though. A shorter cool down on it would help, I think more than the buff to Terror. It is our primary escape skill in place of mobility.

Ratphink.4751:

@Bas: My dislike for MMing stems a bit from GW1 where MM’s were really just glorified babysitters. Spamming enchantments on yourself and sporadically remembering to cast death nova one of your meat sacks was tedious and boring for me. Sure it looked cool as hell, but it was also annoying as all hell if you died or couldn’t respec into something else when it came to endgame boss fights (Lich, Shiro, Abbadon, Urgoz, Kanaxai, Grape Ape Mallyx, Dhuum… all of these boss fights were impossible to MM in due to no corpse to rebuild/build. So between being a largely ‘niche’ PvE role, and one I’ve found dubiously boring, well… you can imagine why I’d be unthrilled about the prospect of ever doing it in GW2. All things considered, AI can still get tweaked a little, but all in all, it’s a decent build.

I actually loved MM in GW1. Death Nova+Ancestors’ Rage+Putrid Flesh=KABOOM!!! Level 32 overpowered mobs dies in seconds. Of course in GW2 we can’t pull off crazy stuns like that.

Ever tried running a Dark Aura Bomber in hard mode and win? I did. You just got to time it properly. Mobs goes like “WTF I am level 32 overpowered how did I died???”

I miss my GW1 necro. She was nuts! She is just like that crazy Gothic girl you met in high school. ^^

Rennoko.5731:

Bas.7406:

@Manuver – The original base heal was 185 it is now 926. 185 to 926 is a 80 percent jump. As a sales guy, I know my profit margins. Think of it this way, you are selling something for 926 that cost you 185 you just made an 80 percent profit margin. It’s very simple take 926 and multiply it by .20 that gives you 185 all they did was take 185 divide it by .2 and that gave them an 80 percent jump.

Wait what?

If the original heal was 185, and it was increased by 100%, it would now be 370. The heal at 370 is twice as powerful as the heal at 185 (or 100% higher).

If I have 2 apples, and I divide by 0.2, I now have 10 apples. While 2 apples are 20% of 10 apples, 10 apples are not 80% more than 2 apples.

This was an increase from the original base heal on attack by 500%. Or you could say that the old heal (185) was 20% of the new heal (926).

Not sure how you are getting 80% increase out of that. I see what you did with the math, but it isn’t right as far as I can tell… In either case it is a huge buff, massive, to something that needed it. Too bad it doesn’t also heal itself on attack as well.

I’m not certain on all the details, but the Blood Fiend tooltip has been inaccurate for a long time now. It used to give significantly more health from its siphon than indicated (Nearly double), so the buff may have been relative to that value, rather than the amount siphoned when the game was released.

The tooltip appears to be accurate now though, so another bug bites the dust.

<—— A upcoming civil engineer, accepting the world is doomed by “economist who know their sales margins”.

Only the tooltip sad heal ~200hp. actualy healed 500hp.
when doing % math, u need to know to what number the % are reffered.

“increase the heal by 80%”

500hp + 80%(of 500hp) = 500 + 0.80*500 = 500 + 400 = 900hp

This post isnt meant personal and i hope that the salesman can take a joke. And it was a mistake by many, cz the skill tooltip had the wrong number. Thats why its good to see how things are in real life not just on paper………….nice morale ending huh? =)

Flumek.9043:

<—— A upcoming civil engineer, accepting the world is doomed by “economist who know their sales margins”.

Only the tooltip sad heal ~200hp. actualy healed 500hp.
when doing % math, u need to know to what number the % are reffered.

“increase the heal by 80%”

500hp + 80%(of 500hp) = 500 + 0.80*500 = 500 + 400 = 900hp

This post isnt meant personal and i hope that the salesman can take a joke. And it was a mistake by many, cz the skill tooltip had the wrong number. Thats why its good to see how things are in real life not just on paper………….nice morale ending huh? =)

I can take a joke :P. My point was that even if they used margin math it still comes out to a 80 percent increase instead of a 400 percent increase if you do your math a little differently. Took 80 percent of the base and added it to the base. I simply did an 80 percent difference on the number. 185/.20 = 926. 185 is 20 percent of 926 that means there is an 80 percent difference between the two.

It’s all about how you look at the numbers, and how you do the math. Math is not always additive.

I do love engineers. I actually work with pump engineers and my job is to understand their thinking and apply it to real life. :P

Bas.7406:

@Manuver – The original base heal was 185 it is now 926. 185 to 926 is a 80 percent jump. As a sales guy, I know my profit margins. Think of it this way, you are selling something for 926 that cost you 185 you just made an 80 percent profit margin. It’s very simple take 926 and multiply it by .20 that gives you 185 all they did was take 185 divide it by .2 and that gave them an 80 percent jump.

Dude if 185 is 20% of 926 that means 926 is 500% of 185! Percentages aren’t reversible that way! An 80% increase would mean 185×1.8=333
Not that I’m complaining!

manveruppd.7601:

Dude if 185 is 20% of 926 that means 926 is 500% of 185! Percentages aren’t reversible that way! An 80% increase would mean 185×1.8=333
Not that I’m complaining!

Haha, you are looking at it in terms of additive math. I am using associative math. I was simply explaining how the calculation can be done where it comes out to 80 percent. I gave you an 80 percent difference (key word) while you simply gave me an 80 percent increase. Isnt’ Math Fun!!!

Wait until you start getting into multiplicative versus additive math. The proc rate of our weapon sigils is multiplicative so 10 percent on one weapon and 10 percent on another weapon does not equal 20 percent chance to proc.

Having said that it appears I was about 50 points off on what the base number used to say and about 450 points off what the actual heal was :P.

Bas.7406:

I am using associative math. I was simply explaining how the calculation can be done where it comes out to 80 percent. I gave you an 80 percent difference (key word) while you simply gave me an 80 percent increase. Isnt’ Math Fun!!!

So how would you do it?

Lol at math argument. Be happy it got beefed up. But still in pvp… its consume or don’t bother. Conditions is the name of the game. And MM spec is horrid when it comes to dealing with conditions. Yeah there’s that transfer nonsense… but your noodle army is fragile enough as it is. So in most cases there’s more benefit to remove conditions from minions rather then add more. Anyway… if you go for a proper full MM… you have very few condition removal tools. Staff and offhand dagger… and staffs 4 while amazing and all that… like all marks it requires target to trigger and you being there.
But anyway I’m still going to say that in all pve content its 1 fight then your minions are half dead for the next one. And no… im not going to sit there switch kittening skills to dismiss summons then sit with a thumb up my kitten waiting for cd… just because anet got a stick up their kitten

Staff 4 transfers your own conditions regardless of where you are when the mark is triggered.

Don’t want to turn this into another minion AI thread but I found that running around Frostsound Gorge last night farming Colossi with the golem, shadow and blood fiends (just for the lulz) the only minion who attacked reliably was the good old Jagged Horror. It was as though he realised he only had limited time in the world and had multiple Leroy Jenkins moments, especially amusing considering their relative sizes

@Chips: I’m not arguing the effectiveness of MMing. I will however say that NPC Heroes were all around better at it. I would run around with half of my parties as Necros, two of which would be MMs using Jagged Bones and Death Nova. Though not gonna lie, there were also days when I’d set up a Rit with Explosive Growth, Aura of the Lich, Death Nova and Summon Bone Minions. Good times. However I still think MMing was a boring amagamation of just repeatedly spamming enchantments(NPC’s did it better and more efficiently) and blood of the master/heal area (depending on your Secondary Class).

I kept my Nova bombing to JQ though to be honest. My PvE builds were usually SS or Blood Magic. I absolutely loved it when they changed the functionality of Barbed Signet. Bleeding everywhere!

Palmski.6419:

Don’t want to turn this into another minion AI thread but I found that running around Frostsound Gorge last night farming Colossi with the golem, shadow and blood fiends (just for the lulz) the only minion who attacked reliably was the good old Jagged Horror. It was as though he realised he only had limited time in the world and had multiple Leroy Jenkins moments, especially amusing considering their relative sizes

I did over an hour of AI testing yesterday, I will go into PvE today just to confirm what I got against “real” mobs, but I can pretty much guarantee all the stuff about minion AI is a load of BS. In all the time that I was testing with them, they predictably aggro’d according to a few pretty simple rules.

Personally, I’m rather glad about the change to Spectral Wall. Having the combo field placed properly makes using it a heck of a lot easier.

Now I can run MM and blow up a bone minion in response to AoE-happy foes. Chaos Armor on all my friends!

Bhawb.7408:

Palmski.6419:

Don’t want to turn this into another minion AI thread but I found that running around Frostsound Gorge last night farming Colossi with the golem, shadow and blood fiends (just for the lulz) the only minion who attacked reliably was the good old Jagged Horror. It was as though he realised he only had limited time in the world and had multiple Leroy Jenkins moments, especially amusing considering their relative sizes

I did over an hour of AI testing yesterday, I will go into PvE today just to confirm what I got against “real” mobs, but I can pretty much guarantee all the stuff about minion AI is a load of BS. In all the time that I was testing with them, they predictably aggro’d according to a few pretty simple rules.

It’s not a load of BS. I farmed with minions for about an hour yesterday and they still display the same random stalling and sometimes not attacking at all during combat. I believe the problem is linked to pathing and this would explain why some people see the issue more than others. This would mean that obstacles and different ground geometry would cause the minions to display their buggy behavior more often and less often depending on where you are in the world. Also, I’d imagine if the AI issue is linked to minion pathing, it’s also the reason we see ranged minions, who are less dependent on pathing, working better than melee.

If you still believe that the minion AI issue is a load of BS, this is a video from about a month ago displaying the problem that I spent very little time making.

and here is another that shows one or both bone minions screwing up

Sodzilla.5239:

It’s not a load of BS. I farmed with minions for about an hour yesterday and they still display the same random stalling and sometimes not attacking at all during combat. I believe the problem is linked to pathing and this would explain why some people see the issue more than others. This would mean that obstacles and different ground geometry would cause the minions to display their buggy behavior more often and less often depending on where you are in the world. Also, I’d imagine if the AI issue is linked to minion pathing, it’s also the reason we see ranged minions, who are less dependent on pathing, working better than melee.

If you still believe that the minion AI issue is a load of BS, this is a video from about a month ago displaying the problem that I spent very little time making.

Except over the last month there have been two major minion patches to help improve their AI. Oh wait, all the videos showing bad AI are over a month old. Wait What!!!

I actually spoke with the player who did the first video, and he readily admitted that the water pathing could have been screwing it up. We also spoke about the various methods used and that the main culprit was the flesh golem. The flesh golem has seen significant improvement since that video came up, but it’s okay we know summoning the dead is one of the Necro traits so we forgiv eyou.

As an ele I would like to officially welcome Necromancers to the “OMG NERF PLS!!!11” club.

The steady stream of other classes coming to your forum to sarcastically ask how to beat you while relaying amazing stories of one necro destroying entire zergs of their best uber equipped, and skilled players will warm your heart.

Here are your “I’m not OP” hats, and bumper stickers, and your block button hair trigger for all the pvpers who will grief you about how they can’t wait till ANet nerfs you every time you win a fight.

Welcome brothers.

Bas.7406:

Sodzilla.5239:

It’s not a load of BS. I farmed with minions for about an hour yesterday and they still display the same random stalling and sometimes not attacking at all during combat. I believe the problem is linked to pathing and this would explain why some people see the issue more than others. This would mean that obstacles and different ground geometry would cause the minions to display their buggy behavior more often and less often depending on where you are in the world. Also, I’d imagine if the AI issue is linked to minion pathing, it’s also the reason we see ranged minions, who are less dependent on pathing, working better than melee.

If you still believe that the minion AI issue is a load of BS, this is a video from about a month ago displaying the problem that I spent very little time making.

Except over the last month there have been two major minion patches to help improve their AI. Oh wait, all the videos showing bad AI are over a month old. Wait What!!!

I actually spoke with the player who did the first video, and he readily admitted that the water pathing could have been screwing it up. We also spoke about the various methods used and that the main culprit was the flesh golem. The flesh golem has seen significant improvement since that video came up, but it’s okay we know summoning the dead is one of the Necro traits so we forgiv eyou.

I run necro regularly as my main and have used MM build quite frequently before any patch, after some patches, and as recently as yesterday. I can honestly say that they are still very buggy. Often my bone minions act more as cheerleaders watching the fight than actually participated (which sucks because I often blow them up and hate when they blow up too far away from the agro to score a hit).

It also does’t seem to make a big difference on where I am in the battle. I’ve run with dagger MH (so close melee), staff (far distance) and recently been running axe to test that out with new buffs (mid-range). My minions act about the same with all three of those weapons.

Invictus.1503:

I run necro regularly as my main and have used MM build quite frequently before any patch, after some patches, and as recently as yesterday. I can honestly say that they are still very buggy. Often my bone minions act more as cheerleaders watching the fight than actually participated (which sucks because I often blow them up and hate when they blow up too far away from the agro to score a hit).

It also does’t seem to make a big difference on where I am in the battle. I’ve run with dagger MH (so close melee), staff (far distance) and recently been running axe to test that out with new buffs (mid-range). My minions act about the same with all three of those weapons.

Staff is perhapst he worst weapon to use to begin a battle as MM. Dagger works, but there are reasons it’s not optimal for MM. I would go into more detail, but Bhawb has been working and testing out different weapons with Minions since I am unable to play regularly for awhile. He has also put together a very simple aggro guide on MM based on different things we have spoken of over the last few months.

They don’t have a bad ai. They just don’t respond the way you think they should. Remember they are single target utilities, not pets designed to follow your targeting so they respond differently.

Lothial.7859:

As an ele I would like to officially welcome Necromancers to the “OMG NERF PLS!!!11” club.

The steady stream of other classes coming to your forum to sarcastically ask how to beat you while relaying amazing stories of one necro destroying entire zergs of their best uber equipped, and skilled players will warm your heart.

Here are your “I’m not OP” hats, and bumper stickers, and your block button hair trigger for all the pvpers who will grief you about how they can’t wait till ANet nerfs you every time you win a fight.

Welcome brothers.

Nothing apart from 150% damage on Focus 5 affects my build at all. TBH, triple damage on 600 damage isn’t really anything I’ll be giving a kitten about any time soon. Takes 1.25s to cast, glad it’ll do some damage if we use it when we’re supposed to.

Anyway, are you just trolling or is there some filter I’m missing that I can turn off so I can see these necro whine posts?

Lighten up, it was just a joke on you guys getting buffed up. I was reading through all the class forums on what people are saying about their class with the new updates.

Lothial.7859:

Lighten up, it was just a joke on you guys getting buffed up. I was reading through all the class forums on what people are saying about their class with the new updates.

I figured it was a joke :P. I thought it was pretty funny. We have been considered very strong by the very good players for some time, and this buff made me giggle inside.

Oh.

Most of the changes support MM builds, and you’ll have noticed that not many people think they’re viable in sPvP or WvW due to their AI shortcomings. I’m not fond of them for that reason.

Other than that, the main changes were slightly positive, but nothing which’ll cause anyone to respec. I’ll still be using axe only when it’s the only sensible option (melee boss fights basically) and I can’t see many people dropping dagger for it.

Lothial.7859:

As an ele I would like to officially welcome Necromancers to the “OMG NERF PLS!!!11” club.

The steady stream of other classes coming to your forum to sarcastically ask how to beat you while relaying amazing stories of one necro destroying entire zergs of their best uber equipped, and skilled players will warm your heart.

Here are your “I’m not OP” hats, and bumper stickers, and your block button hair trigger for all the pvpers who will grief you about how they can’t wait till ANet nerfs you every time you win a fight.

Welcome brothers.

Sure when I see another necro in wvw and level 40+ Fractual I will let you know.

Buggy or not, Necromancer has always been great at farming. Lothial is right; the profession may be getting OP. I remember farming with a friend in Orr months ago getting questions like, “You’re not just going to pull that veteran, are you?” And I would do it anyway and face-tank my way through the fight like a noob. Sometimes, I would laugh and say, “Go, fetch, golem! Pull until one of us is dead!” That got old, quick, though. I am glad the minions’ leash got shortened. It is funny watching the golem jog off, hit the invisible dog fence, and get sent back.

Not sure Necromancer needed an axe and minion buff as much as better escape and damage reduction skills via conditions and boons. In the end, running minions on a power build should not be more effective than being mobile artillery as a condition cannon. Traiting and skills are completely different, as are the situations the builds are used in.

Soon, I hope, Necromancer will become more popular as jealousy over the variety of effective builds grows.

I’ll be making a post hopefully today about minion aggro, it is actually a very simple, predictable, and controllable thing. It also makes a lot of sense when you think about it, but I am assuming that they have “random” AI more due to the fact that no one has ever paid incredibly close attention to their habits for long enough to recognize a pattern. I just happened to find it completely on accident when I was testing for minion attack speeds.

Whoa!

My main (and only level 80 so far) is a Necro. She is and has been a MM since level one, with no regrets. It’s just the style I love and have fun with. But now these changes make me happier than a bird with a french fry.

Bas.7406:

Invictus.1503:

I run necro regularly as my main and have used MM build quite frequently before any patch, after some patches, and as recently as yesterday. I can honestly say that they are still very buggy. Often my bone minions act more as cheerleaders watching the fight than actually participated (which sucks because I often blow them up and hate when they blow up too far away from the agro to score a hit).

It also does’t seem to make a big difference on where I am in the battle. I’ve run with dagger MH (so close melee), staff (far distance) and recently been running axe to test that out with new buffs (mid-range). My minions act about the same with all three of those weapons.

Staff is perhapst he worst weapon to use to begin a battle as MM. Dagger works, but there are reasons it’s not optimal for MM. I would go into more detail, but Bhawb has been working and testing out different weapons with Minions since I am unable to play regularly for awhile. He has also put together a very simple aggro guide on MM based on different things we have spoken of over the last few months.

They don’t have a bad ai. They just don’t respond the way you think they should. Remember they are single target utilities, not pets designed to follow your targeting so they respond differently.

Too bad staff is the only weapon you can even try to keep the little kittens alive with. And even with max healing power and enough regen from mark of blood to even out-heal the jagged horrors bleed out, they still die to anything strong =( Although it is fun to see all the little hamsters stampeding around until an aoe gets them.

The whole ‘they are a utility they’re supposed to not be very good’ thing might very well be true but Anet certainly misrepresented the class pre-release if thats the case. Every screenshot had necro surrounded by minions, every blurb talking about them was minions minions minions. They never said ‘Oh by the way, minions are situational at best and semi-useless at worst, they’re designed to be dead every 30 seconds once you are level 80 and are doing anything remotely challenging. If you like pets please don’t play this class.’

I find it ironic and hilarious that there are tons of people on the necro forums who want their minions to be better and want to be able to use them in more situations, and there are tons of people on the ranger forum who want to be able to go pet-less and stow them for damage buffs. They should have some kind of exchange program for us =D

Relair.1843:

Too bad staff is the only weapon you can even try to keep the little kittens alive with. And even with max healing power and enough regen from mark of blood to even out-heal the jagged horrors bleed out, they still die to anything strong =( Although it is fun to see all the little hamsters stampeding around until an aoe gets them.

The whole ‘they are a utility they’re supposed to not be very good’ thing might very well be true but Anet certainly misrepresented the class pre-release if thats the case. Every screenshot had necro surrounded by minions, every blurb talking about them was minions minions minions. They never said ‘Oh by the way, minions are situational at best and semi-useless at worst, they’re designed to be dead every 30 seconds once you are level 80 and are doing anything remotely challenging. If you like pets please don’t play this class.’

I find it ironic and hilarious that there are tons of people on the necro forums who want their minions to be better and want to be able to use them in more situations, and there are tons of people on the ranger forum who want to be able to go pet-less and stow them for damage buffs. They should have some kind of exchange program for us =D

Yes and no! Staff 2 is the easiest to use to keep them alive, but life transfer heals and focus 4 work as well. I never really worry about keeping them alive. They do their job pretty efficiently.

As for the ranger part, that is always funny. Necro’s want their pets to be like Rangers, and rangers complain endlessly about their pets.

Minions are supposed to die. In fact if you do not purposely kill 3 of them, you are losing out on a huge portion of their potential. They are not pets (thanks to drarnor for the bold tip). Remember that, pets are supposed to be highly controllable creatures that can do as much damage as an actual person, you should care about them, try to keep them alive, etc.

Minions are not pets. They are underlings, peons, disposable meat-shields. They are the little orcs to your Sauran. When one of them comes back and has failed you, you should extend your leather-clad hand and choke the life out of them via the force. If you are walking down the street and find a puddle, you should throw them face first into it, so you may trod across their backs, safe from any splashes.

Seriously though, stop acting like minions are your dog that you let sleep on your bed, and scoop up their defecation; they are disposable tools that happen to have just enough sentience to be useful.

@Bhawb: Bolding is just “*” on both sides of the bolded text. Minus quotation marks.

Bhawb.7408:

Minions are supposed to die. In fact if you do not purposely kill 3 of them, you are losing out on a huge portion of their potential. They are not pets (thanks to drarnor for the bold tip). Remember that, pets are supposed to be highly controllable creatures that can do as much damage as an actual person, you should care about them, try to keep them alive, etc.

Minions are not pets. They are underlings, peons, disposable meat-shields. They are the little orcs to your Sauran. When one of them comes back and has failed you, you should extend your leather-clad hand and choke the life out of them via the force. If you are walking down the street and find a puddle, you should throw them face first into it, so you may trod across their backs, safe from any splashes.

Seriously though, stop acting like minions are your dog that you let sleep on your bed, and scoop up their defecation; they are disposable tools that happen to have just enough sentience to be useful.

^^^ This. Even my character makes non caring emotes when my minions die. “Fine I’ll just make another one!”

However, I do wish the CD for pets triggered after casting instead of after death…and there was a max dmg received mechanic from bosses.

If they all had a 16s cooldown then it wouldn’t be a problem. If you are full MM spec and wurmy and golem are dead and you’re waiting almost a minute without your main source of damage then its a problem. If they’re supposed to be suicide bombers then let them do that. If they’re supposed to last awhile give us a way to keep them alive, thats all I want. We just seem to be stuck in between the two and it sucks. Engineers can even spec to babysit their turrets and heal them constantly if they want. Sure its not very efficient but at least theres an option for it, we have no realistic options at all to try to keep them alive.

All of the ones that are made to be killed often have 16 second CDs (traited); Blood Fiend and Bone Minions. Flesh Golem does not die easily, and still only has a 48 second CD, the longest of all the minion abilities. Flesh Wurm should just plain never die on his own, if he does its your fault for placing him in the wrong spot.

They aren’t supposed to be suicide bombers, but they are supposed to be expendable, which they are. An MM with minion abilities on CD is no weaker than a DS build that isn’t in DS, or a well build that has wells on CD. It isn’t like we rely 100% on minions for everything, they are just a tool to deal more damage and give us more battle control.

On a whim, I changed the major traits in my condition damage build to be minions and jumped into WvW. I got into a 3-way fight and more or less stood still pounding F as the stream of minions went down and pounded away. I have no points in Spite and only 20 in death and blood magic.

I don’t know what exactly happened, but I think minions are viable for WvW now.

Bhawb.7408:

They are the little orcs to your Sauran. When one of them comes back and has failed you, you should extend your leather-clad hand and choke the life out of them…

… for having delivered a train of Fellowship of the Ring to your door step.

Bhawb.7408:

Palmski.6419:

Don’t want to turn this into another minion AI thread but I found that running around Frostsound Gorge last night farming Colossi with the golem, shadow and blood fiends (just for the lulz) the only minion who attacked reliably was the good old Jagged Horror. It was as though he realised he only had limited time in the world and had multiple Leroy Jenkins moments, especially amusing considering their relative sizes

I did over an hour of AI testing yesterday, I will go into PvE today just to confirm what I got against “real” mobs, but I can pretty much guarantee all the stuff about minion AI is a load of BS. In all the time that I was testing with them, they predictably aggro’d according to a few pretty simple rules.

Like I say; I don’t want to turn it into a minion AI thread as I don’t use them by and large. The problems are well-known and seem to revolve largely around z-axis pathing and this very much tallies with my experience – I have a fair idea of which fights they will be sitting back and chomping the popcorn watching me do the work.

The Jagged Horror seems immune to them though and the main point of my post was my amusement at watching the little undead rat streaking towards the, erm, colossal Colossus while everyone else stood around and applauded

Maybe it’s because I started playing necro right before the update and didn’t pay much attention to it but, as of now, Frozen Abyss is cancelled automatically by auto-attack and never gets to do the finishing hit (unless you purposely face opposite way off your target so auto attack doesn’t activate). I’m pretty sure this wasn’t happening before patch

Are we ever going to see minions health regenerated out of combat?

Any news on the matter from developers?

Bas.7406:

Sodzilla.5239:

It’s not a load of BS. I farmed with minions for about an hour yesterday and they still display the same random stalling and sometimes not attacking at all during combat. I believe the problem is linked to pathing and this would explain why some people see the issue more than others. This would mean that obstacles and different ground geometry would cause the minions to display their buggy behavior more often and less often depending on where you are in the world. Also, I’d imagine if the AI issue is linked to minion pathing, it’s also the reason we see ranged minions, who are less dependent on pathing, working better than melee.

If you still believe that the minion AI issue is a load of BS, this is a video from about a month ago displaying the problem that I spent very little time making.

Except over the last month there have been two major minion patches to help improve their AI. Oh wait, all the videos showing bad AI are over a month old. Wait What!!!

I actually spoke with the player who did the first video, and he readily admitted that the water pathing could have been screwing it up. We also spoke about the various methods used and that the main culprit was the flesh golem. The flesh golem has seen significant improvement since that video came up, but it’s okay we know summoning the dead is one of the Necro traits so we forgiv eyou.

Bas, I’m not trying to start some forum war, I even enjoyed reading through the Minion Mancer guide you put together awhile back. However, the videos I linked to are my videos off my youtube channel. I was the one who originally posted the Southsun Cove video to this forum inside another players post about a Minion AI video. I encourage you to check my post history if you don’t believe me. I’m not sure who you were talking to, but there is no post where I ever “readily admitted that the water pathing could have been screwing it (Flesh Golem) up”, though, in a follow up post, I did state that it wasn’t the same flesh golem throughout the whole video. I also said that sometimes I have the flesh golem charge out over the water to kill him in hopes of respawning a new flesh golem that might attack a little more frequently.

The only thing in the last “two major minion patches”, that had anything to do with minion AI, not minion abilities, is “Fixed a bug that caused some minions to be overly aggressive." I’m sorry, maybe I wasn’t clear with just posting my videos. I thought the bug was fairly obvious watching them, but my issue isn’t about minions being “overly aggressive”, it’s about minion’s random lack of aggression during a fight. Yes, the flesh golem/shadow fiend video is from before the “overly aggressive” patch, but again the issue I had isn’t about over aggression. The bone minion video I made and posted to youtube on the 16th of February, after the aggression patch. Either way, I reposted the videos because the unresponsive AI is an issue I’m still randomly dealing with. Like you, I like using minions, it’s why I picked the Necromancer. Like you, I try using them in areas others don’t and I think it’s cool that you try and help others do the same. I tried being constructive in my other post, and do feel that the AI bug comes down to pathing issues that still need fine tuning. I think the bug is more related to where you fight with minions not how you fight with them and that is why some players experience the unresponsive AI more than others. I don’t think the Minion AI issue is the end of the world for Necromancers, but I do feel the minion’s random responsiveness does make them less reliable than they should be. I remain hopeful that sooner or later we will see a patch that directly addresses this problem. However, I don’t think it’s fair that someone “can pretty much guarantee all the stuff about minion AI is a load of BS” when I and others are still dealing with this behavior.

So as not to be “summoning the dead “, this video is current build. To be clear, the issue in the video is the minion’s random responsiveness during a fight.

@Sodzilla, I am not saying they don’t need minor tweeks. What we are trying to stem is this outgoing call for them to act as ranger pets (which have the exact same issue) or that we need call and recall buttons or that the AI causes them to be completely unusable.

The main culprit is always the Flesh Golem. The rest have really good response times if you don’t use massive aoe attacks. I will watch your video at lunch. I am at work at the moment :p

The blood fiend seems to be the most responsive of the lot. The ranged bone fiend will even stand around for a second or two in some cases in that video. The golem being the worst offender.

Minion response should feel snappy no matter what, and that video clearly indicates that snappy isn’t the best way to describe it.

Bas.7406:

Invictus.1503:

I run necro regularly as my main and have used MM build quite frequently before any patch, after some patches, and as recently as yesterday. I can honestly say that they are still very buggy. Often my bone minions act more as cheerleaders watching the fight than actually participated (which sucks because I often blow them up and hate when they blow up too far away from the agro to score a hit).

It also does’t seem to make a big difference on where I am in the battle. I’ve run with dagger MH (so close melee), staff (far distance) and recently been running axe to test that out with new buffs (mid-range). My minions act about the same with all three of those weapons.

They don’t have a bad ai. They just don’t respond the way you think they should. Remember they are single target utilities, not pets designed to follow your targeting so they respond differently.

I’m not trying to be difficult here, and frankly I’m not asking they follow my targeting. I simply want them to target SOMETHING. If I’m in a battle state, all I ask is that they target something (heck make it random targeting within a certain radius which would be fine). You will never convince me that a bone minion standing around doing nothing while I’m in battle is working properly.

Rennoko.5731:

The blood fiend seems to be the most responsive of the lot. The ranged bone fiend will even stand around for a second or two in some cases in that video. The golem being the worst offender.

Minion response should feel snappy no matter what, and that video clearly indicates that snappy isn’t the best way to describe it.

The bone fiend has a attack speed issue that’s the only reason it seems that way. He targets than winds up and attacks. his response time is fine.

Minion response time is no worse than any other AI in the game.

Bas.7406:

Rennoko.5731:

The blood fiend seems to be the most responsive of the lot. The ranged bone fiend will even stand around for a second or two in some cases in that video. The golem being the worst offender.

Minion response should feel snappy no matter what, and that video clearly indicates that snappy isn’t the best way to describe it.

The bone fiend has a attack speed issue that’s the only reason it seems that way. He targets than winds up and attacks. his response time is fine.

Minion response time is no worse than any other AI in the game.

Since his normal wind up and attack once he is going is often (in that video at least), faster than his original target and attack, I would say that is an issue with response time. That was what I as pointing out.

I hate to think that having minion AI match NPC AI is an acceptable situation. Yes they are both NPC’s, but how many NPC’s do you know that stand around and refuse to attack when you engage them? Sure they bug out from time to time, which I think we can all accept, but from the video above, it clearly happens frequently.

What is the problem with having them focus whatever you use your 1 skill on? That isn’t elegant, but at least it makes them all engage properly.

Rennoko.5731

Since his normal wind up and attack once he is going is often (in that video at least), faster than his original target and attack, I would say that is an issue with response time. That was what I as pointing out.

I hate to think that having minion AI match NPC AI is an acceptable situation. Yes they are both NPC’s, but how many NPC’s do you know that stand around and refuse to attack when you engage them? Sure they bug out from time to time, which I think we can all accept, but from the video above, it clearly happens frequently.

What is the problem with having them focus whatever you use your 1 skill on? That isn’t elegant, but at least it makes them all engage properly.

Because we don’t always use our 1 attack. Sometimes I don’t even use my auto attack unless I have a dagger than I always do it. Sometimes I fire my 1 attack on my staff at one target then I want to focus fire another target. Now I have to hit 1 again.

It’s more complicated explanation, and yet simpler solution than you make it out to be. I will say this much in the time that I have played, I have never had that long of a period where the flesh golem did not respond. Which has more to do with the way I play, the weapons used, how I attack, and the fights I am in. I am not saying that I don’t see AI issues, but nothing as bad as the video shows.

Jesus.. minions still disappear when we go to a new location..pathetic.sigh

Jesus.. minions still disappear when we go to a new location..pathetic.sighhow can we possibly talk about improving necro skill wise of even these obvious things are broken