Necro - WvW - Getting Focused
I can’t anyways focus on the fights sorry, that pink moustache…….
Nice fights. It really highlights how the right group dynamic can enhance its individual members and allow for much greater performance as a whole.
A condi necro is like a successful linebacker. He can be a game changer but is most effective when the big uglies in the trenches free him up to make plays.
Pretty much what I realized early on; you need a good screen to do your job as a Necro in WvW; in small groups that means that screen must maintain situational awareness and not run off chasing squirrels or the enemy will single out your artillery Necro and gank them.
Now the question is: should Necros require that level of group support?
Pretty much what I realized early on; you need a good screen to do your job as a Necro in WvW; in small groups that means that screen must maintain situational awareness and not run off chasing squirrels or the enemy will single out your artillery Necro and gank them.
Now the question is: should Necros require that level of group support?
I think the better question might be, if they do fix our small group sustain problem (1v1 2v2) what will happen in these situations? Imagine if siphons worked well and how nearly impossible a necro would be to take down while still carrying a secondary condition stat.
My hope is that the day that happens, the meta can shift away from full tank, full zerk builds and more towards everyone carrying a mixed assortment of traits and stats around balanced combat.
Also my personal gripe about both worm and walk are that they tend to pull you away form your support, which is almost always counter productive. Both require pre-setup, and unless you guardian sets up a tea-shop on your worm, you are going to get ported away to get focused by a 2 spamming thief.
I can’t anyways focus on the fights sorry, that pink moustache…….
I don’t know how Duke (the warrior) finds those kind of character models. They are so ridiculous I can’t believe the designers even put them in the game. I should have put in the video of him spamming taunt where it looks like he is air humping.
Ever since the introduction of the class icon on player portraits, necro has become a favorite target for any organized group.
One of the reasons why I didn’t use signets.
I love when they come for me, Specially Thieves, Reapers Protection baby.
Looked like mostly Hybrid build, not something I like but still nice Vid.
Servant of Dhuum
You would probably do much better in group with different utilities (in WvW). If you go curses 30 you probably go chill on blind so having well of darkness would kind of make sense.
Your buds could also bring more “AI trash” like mesmer clones, spirits or other necro with minions to cover you.
Also you run condi focus with op staff so you sorta kinda have better initial setup for keeping yourself alive and you can use cheesy dire set. Dagger/axe setups have it worse, single target etc.
Sustain in groups is really not that much of a problem especially if a lot of trash is dying around. It mostly comes in play when you go 1v1 or 1v2 or focused By bigger group like 5 or something it’s difficult to get more LF if you can’t land hits on about anything which gives LF often enough. I really wouldn’t worry too much about hps if you can manage LF, that said life siphon works just alright I’d be more worried about having dagger traits in useful places.
Also immobilize/stun/cc stacking is pretty annoying piece of blaah. It kind of spoils whole point of playing lifesteal or tankier necro since you can’t really tank anything when you’re cc’ed and focused, no invuln/evade/block/stability to gtfo. Only real gtfo cards are spectral walk (which was nerfed too much to be worth bringing in general) or wurm which is just difficult and clumsy to use effectively.
You would probably do much better in group with different utilities (in WvW). If you go curses 30 you probably go chill on blind so having well of darkness would kind of make sense.
Your buds could also bring more “AI trash” like mesmer clones, spirits or other necro with minions to cover you.
Also you run condi focus with op staff so you sorta kinda have better initial setup for keeping yourself alive and you can use cheesy dire set. Dagger/axe setups have it worse, single target etc.
Sustain in groups is really not that much of a problem especially if a lot of trash is dying around. It mostly comes in play when you go 1v1 or 1v2 or focused By bigger group like 5 or something it’s difficult to get more LF if you can’t land hits on about anything which gives LF often enough. I really wouldn’t worry too much about hps if you can manage LF, that said life siphon works just alright I’d be more worried about having dagger traits in useful places.
Also immobilize/stun/cc stacking is pretty annoying piece of blaah. It kind of spoils whole point of playing lifesteal or tankier necro since you can’t really tank anything when you’re cc’ed and focused, no invuln/evade/block/stability to gtfo. Only real gtfo cards are spectral walk (which was nerfed too much to be worth bringing in general) or wurm which is just difficult and clumsy to use effectively.
I agree other utilities would keep me alive longer, but I generally smaller group roam where I prefer boon flips and bip. Also the point isn’t to survive as long as possible, the point is to survive without giving up whatever utilities you may want to run.
Also staff OP? Dire is certainly an exceptionally powerful armor set, but staff is no where near overpowered compared to what it used to be.
Staff only gets so much use because most of the other weapons are either craptastic (axe) and/or put you within the “walking down a dark alley alone” radius of the enemy assist train. (<1200 range in an open field)
If there were more broken terrain to use as cover in WvW, staff would see far less use.
Some dudes on reddit did a poll and found out that nearly all condition necros use a staff, thus proving that staff is OP.
Solo & Roaming Group WvW Movies
Some dudes on reddit did a poll and found out that nearly all condition necros use a staff, thus proving that staff is OP.
Lawls. Of course the Reddit hivemind is 100% right about everything.
Some dudes on reddit did a poll and found out that nearly all condition necros use a staff, thus proving that staff is OP.
Lawls. Of course the Reddit hivemind is 100% right about everything.
And given the option of going scepter/dagger twice… staff does not face that hard a competition.
I mean I have a staff in my second set – if I even bother taking off my corruption x2 set. And still i hardly ever use it and hate every single second that I use it.
yay staff, yay reddit. lol
// just realized i probably got trolled, no one can be this dumb :/
gj oozo
I like your vids plus the music! It’s blocked in germany and for many european based proxies though - just fyi. The proxy i used blocks the comment section - is all of the soundtrack by chvrches?
It’s almost spooky though how your comments always say what i think at that moment in the video o_O
(25spite comment xD, then 15points SR. When I was like ’haha tagging rally bait like crazy must be a core class mechanic, eh?’ - next thing on the screen is your topic about tagging all dem goats) *shiver*
You shouldn’t have posted this video. Now people’s realities are gonna collapse as they realized that you can indeed survive via good use of active abilities combined with actual skill and not have to rely on arbitrary armor/skill requirements and thresholds. And you know we can’t have videos of necros doing good as then people will cry for n… Ok, I’ll just hush now.
Necros are underpowered! They can’t sustain or survive if a rabbit looks at them. They need a buff. /whistles
In all seriousness, thanks anyways.
for there you have been and there you will long to return.
You shouldn’t have posted this video. Now people’s realities are gonna collapse as they realized that you can indeed survive via good use of active abilities combined with actual skill and not have to rely on arbitrary armor/skill requirements and thresholds. And you know we can’t have videos of necros doing good as then people will cry for n… Ok, I’ll just hush now.
Necros are underpowered! They can’t sustain or survive if a rabbit looks at them. They need a buff. /whistles
In all seriousness, thanks anyways.
You know, he gets downed a lot in this movie (which is to be expected for the fights shown). The point of the movie is that necros can survive focus for a period of time using DS and plague but once that is depleted you will get caught in an unavoidable downed cycle against a team that is focusing you.
At that point you require teammates to cover for your weaknesses. I’m not sure how that translates to necros are fine at surviving team focus. Generally speaking, it’s best to try to keep good positioning to avoid being focused to begin with if at all possible. Getting caught in a focus train death spiral puts a lot of pressure on your team.
Solo & Roaming Group WvW Movies
You shouldn’t have posted this video. Now people’s realities are gonna collapse as they realized that you can indeed survive via good use of active abilities combined with actual skill and not have to rely on arbitrary armor/skill requirements and thresholds. And you know we can’t have videos of necros doing good as then people will cry for n… Ok, I’ll just hush now.
Necros are underpowered! They can’t sustain or survive if a rabbit looks at them. They need a buff. /whistles
In all seriousness, thanks anyways.
Not sure I meant this to be the take away. Two things:
1. Survival is possible, though obviously it is harder than using immunities, target breaks like stealth, and leap/charge skills to get out of range. Necro is still the best target to attack, but you CAN survive as a necro without dumping all your traits into survival and taking 3 spectral skills.
2. How dependent we are on plague. Remove that utility, and survival essentially becomes nearly impossible. One day when we have new elite skills, and won’t be able to use them in WvW situations like I show, for obvious reasons.
Survival without immunities is not impossible, but it is much harder. And as Oozo just mentioned, I did have people picking me back up pretty much the entire video.
You shouldn’t have posted this video. Now people’s realities are gonna collapse as they realized that you can indeed survive via good use of active abilities combined with actual skill and not have to rely on arbitrary armor/skill requirements and thresholds. And you know we can’t have videos of necros doing good as then people will cry for n… Ok, I’ll just hush now.
Necros are underpowered! They can’t sustain or survive if a rabbit looks at them. They need a buff. /whistles
In all seriousness, thanks anyways.
Not sure I meant this to be the take away. Two things:
1. Survival is possible, though obviously it is harder than using immunities, target breaks like stealth, and leap/charge skills to get out of range. Necro is still the best target to attack, but you CAN survive as a necro without dumping all your traits into survival and taking 3 spectral skills.
2. How dependent we are on plague. Remove that utility, and survival essentially becomes nearly impossible. One day when we have new elite skills, and won’t be able to use them in WvW situations like I show, for obvious reasons.
Survival without immunities is not impossible, but it is much harder. And as Oozo just mentioned, I did have people picking me back up pretty much the entire video.
Oh, I was being facetious in part of my post. I wasn’t even aware it was possible to survive in those situation though I sometimes hink that videos of [insert class here] doing well is going to provoke reactions in a very nerf-happy environment, lol though in a half-hearted joking manner.As for going down, well… yes I understand you would be dead without allies, but given the opposing numbers, I don’t see that much of a problem though admittingly necros have very few tools on their own when downed.
The lack of immunity is definitely why some classes seem so much more survivable than us. It’s kinda dumb really, and it’s no surprise plague which isn’t complete immunity but is the closest thing we have is so critical to necro survival. Properly balancing this is beyond my realm of knowledge, sadly. In any case there needs to be much more work in this area when we’re dealing with a class that is supposed to be an attrition class but has so little tools to deal with when the tide turns against us. An attrition class without adequate CC defense, downed skills, and sustain…
Regardless, my main thought was there was a lot of skill shown in said video, and the difference it makes is neat to watch; maybe the class does have a really high skill cap, I’d like to think. I was thinking “That’s actually possible?” which is a rare reaction when I watch gw2 videos.
for there you have been and there you will long to return.
(edited by ArchonWing.9480)
Dude i live in Germany and cant watch the vid, can you do smthn about it?
UMG and UMPG Publishing copyright crap…kitten germans like 50% of youtube hates you
Dude i live in Germany and cant watch the vid, can you do smthn about it?
UMG and UMPG Publishing copyright crap…kitten germans like 50% of youtube hates you
Should be okay now. I don’t know why youtube and the music industry have it out for video makers. People like me that do this for fun and have no intention of making money shouldn’t have the kind of problems we do using copyright music.
This is all old footage isn’kitten
The way you can play as a necromancer has changed with the chainstuns and prolonged duration of immobilize.
No way you’re going to survive without stunbreaker these days. The only thing that saves you in your vids is plagueform but the stability can be stolen quiet easily by a mesmer. When in plagueform you are also a great source of condi stacking for the opposite team, the necro could easily epi off a sitting duck.
Don’t get me wrong, I like the big numbers but you rely way to much on the 3 guardians that have to carry you and you would die so fast these days even with that support.
If you encounter a group with some decent cleansing and half a brain this build / setup would not be viable.
I’m making a vid myself as I think it’s a good idea to explain this. I’ll post it later today.
(edited by dangerdoom.3862)
This is all old footage isn’kitten
The way you can play as a necromancer has changed with the chainstuns and prolonged duration of immobilize.
No way you’re going to survive without stunbreaker these days. The only thing that saves you in your vids is plagueform but the stability can be stolen quiet easily by a mesmer. When in plagueform you are also a great source of condi stacking for the opposite team, the necro could easily epi off a sitting duck.
Don’t get me wrong, I like the big numbers but you rely way to much on the 3 guardians that have to carry you and you would die so fast these days even with that support.
If you encounter a group with some decent cleansing and half a brain this build / setup would not be viable.
I’m making a vid myself as I think it’s a good idea to explain this. I’ll post it later today.
The footage is from last week.
I can attest to the footage being last week.
As for the stunbreaker and immob, stunbreakers are all but unecessary for dire builds. DS is instant cast, as is doom, meaning you can fear off most stun sources. When it comes to hammer warriors or what not, a single stunbreaker isn’t enough anyway, in those situations you best keep them off you to begin with (easy enough with cripple/blind/fear/chill). Basically if your getting stunned for any significant amount of time you’ve likely made a major positioning error and a stunbreaker isn’t going to help.
The change to immob is hardly a major issue for necro either, you can transfer it or clear it without much issue.
I run in groups this size all the time and we have far less support than what Rennoko is getting, the times we have guardians, they are meditation burst guardians. We have no warriors, a bunch of thieves, and a bunch of necros. Survival is about knowing your group and working around it (I run different builds for my various groups). This video is showing the worst situations intentionally, those will always happen. To be honest, the biggest problem here is actually the amount of support. That group comp any smart group WILL focus the necro (vs tough guards/warriors), as the necro is generally more of a threat than a guardian or warrior. Groups where you have high damage classes tend to not have the same necro focus issues. Even a good group will take focus off a necro when 3 thieves or burst guardians suddenly melt their buddy.
(edited by Icewielder.4195)
Fun video, Yet in general necro has to be carried with a utility focused on mobility.
I would rather have locust signet on so i can keep up and use the two other utilities for slaughter.. since getting away is a rare thing. and if i have a team that carries me i still spec for toughness since you almost always had 20 points left if i spec condition/power and DS then becomes purely defensive.
However using flesh wurm in GvG for instance is pretty nifty.
E.A.D.
This is all old footage isn’kitten
The way you can play as a necromancer has changed with the chainstuns and prolonged duration of immobilize.
No way you’re going to survive without stunbreaker these days. The only thing that saves you in your vids is plagueform but the stability can be stolen quiet easily by a mesmer. When in plagueform you are also a great source of condi stacking for the opposite team, the necro could easily epi off a sitting duck.
Don’t get me wrong, I like the big numbers but you rely way to much on the 3 guardians that have to carry you and you would die so fast these days even with that support.
If you encounter a group with some decent cleansing and half a brain this build / setup would not be viable.
I’m making a vid myself as I think it’s a good idea to explain this. I’ll post it later today.The footage is from last week.
Oh yeah, I was confused with the condi ticks in the video, I didn’t know you could change it back. Sorry for the accusations.
Looking back I might have been a bit too harsh on the critisism. The problem with roaming is that most of the time you run into much bigger numbers and if you’re not a bit tanky / mobile you’ll just get frustrated over time. You won’t be able to kite around if needed and when your team decides to get away you’ll always die.
Anyway, as a small scale roamer myself, me and my guild try different setups everyday. We always aim to be self sustainable with support on stomps / downs and escapes. As the necro is always the first target I feel I need my spectral skills to not be a rallybot. When we have our guardian playing some members would change to dagger ele or warrior, more physical damage based. In pure 5vs5 I would choose plague over golem and change my runes.
I made a little video myself of a couple of fights we had yesterday morning. Not realy edited well though :]
To be honest, the biggest problem here is actually the amount of support. That group comp any smart group WILL focus the necro (vs tough guards/warriors), as the necro is generally more of a threat than a guardian or warrior. Groups where you have high damage classes tend to not have the same necro focus issues. Even a good group will take focus off a necro when 3 thieves or burst guardians suddenly melt their buddy.
The warrior I believe is actually all zerker, or mostly zerker. He just happens to play a highly mobile build, and uses the immunity skills well. He hides well in a group because he is so flamboyant.
This is all old footage isn’kitten
The way you can play as a necromancer has changed with the chainstuns and prolonged duration of immobilize.
No way you’re going to survive without stunbreaker these days. The only thing that saves you in your vids is plagueform but the stability can be stolen quiet easily by a mesmer. When in plagueform you are also a great source of condi stacking for the opposite team, the necro could easily epi off a sitting duck.
Don’t get me wrong, I like the big numbers but you rely way to much on the 3 guardians that have to carry you and you would die so fast these days even with that support.
If you encounter a group with some decent cleansing and half a brain this build / setup would not be viable.
I’m making a vid myself as I think it’s a good idea to explain this. I’ll post it later today.The footage is from last week.
Oh yeah, I was confused with the condi ticks in the video, I didn’t know you could change it back. Sorry for the accusations.
Looking back I might have been a bit too harsh on the critisism. The problem with roaming is that most of the time you run into much bigger numbers and if you’re not a bit tanky / mobile you’ll just get frustrated over time. You won’t be able to kite around if needed and when your team decides to get away you’ll always die.
Anyway, as a small scale roamer myself, me and my guild try different setups everyday. We always aim to be self sustainable with support on stomps / downs and escapes. As the necro is always the first target I feel I need my spectral skills to not be a rallybot. When we have our guardian playing some members would change to dagger ele or warrior, more physical damage based. In pure 5vs5 I would choose plague over golem and change my runes.
I made a little video myself of a couple of fights we had yesterday morning. Not realy edited well though :]
I haven’t watched you vid yet, but I will later.
Spectral skills are great for survival, but I prefer not to feel pigeon-holed into taking certain skills. My own overuse of BIP has made it to where I feel uncomfortable without it in my second slot, which is never good, but far better than if I couldn’t play without spectral armor or walk in that same slot.
If we do happen to run into another group with a necro, he goes down as fast or faster than me, so I hardly have to worry about him using me as an epi target. Also I would say 1 in 500 mesmers runs arcane thievery. It is much more likely the stab would get stripped, but I still have the high toughness and HP, which is what I really care about, not the stability.
The point was, these groups DO have tons of cleanse, and they DO have half a brain, because they are focusing me. I would argue in these situations our best skill (epidemic) is largely useless, as I cannot ever get a bleed stack over 5-8 on anyone. Plague is actually my safest and best way to deal damage, as the bleeds are fast applied, short duration, and almost always going to run their course (and they come with poison).
The group setup was not ideal at all, but was rather just the folks that wanted to roam that night. With no second condi battery, it becomes useless to run epidemic as mentioned above against the heavy cleanse group.
I very rarely have the opportunity to be supported this well, and the results when groups this large focus me with little to no support are not as good, but the principle of cycling the cooldowns, positioning, and skill usage are the same. You just have less room for error. I am not going to come in here and tell everyone they must use spectral skills to compete, because that is just not true. Better in these situations than offensive utilities absolutely, but not required.
IMO Necro has always been about positioning in fights a lot like staff eles. You simply cannot afford to be caught up in stun fields/knockbacks/ and immobilizes. Guardians are a necros best friend as they have aoe access to all the things that make us able to do our work with less chance of getting locked down by the enemy. Lot’s of people will say they use plague form and DS for defense, but again IMHO if it’s at that point in a fight you better hope someone else is coming to bail you out, because you are essentially just buying time.
For me the turning point was realizing i don’t have access to the things it takes for survival and get away without taking away from what necro is good at. I just go with it using DS and plague offensively keeping the pressure on people to either die, or run away early in the fight so when all my stuff is on cooldown the fight is pretty much already decided. Anet kinda messed up the class and many bandwagon necros still don’t realize that this class especially in W3 is about condi/damg. burst, and controlling your enemy with chill, fear, cripple, weakness, and fear being the most important. It’s important to realize before he/she runs to drop that cripple, when he/she is gonna drop a heal to get that poison on, and for other condition classes at key times to send that condi pressure back on them. People complain we condi spam, but in reality good necros know when/where and which condition to drop mess up other peoples game plans.
The warrior I believe is actually all zerker, or mostly zerker. He just happens to play a highly mobile build, and uses the immunity skills well. He hides well in a group because he is so flamboyant.
That doesn’t surprise me at all, warriors in good hands are still hard to bring down even with zerker. I definitely wasn’t saying there was anything wrong with the group, there clearly isn’t. Just observing that guardians and warriors “tend” to not go down as easy as most necros you fight (This is more because of the number of necro’s running around recently that die if you look sternly at them). Put a staff ele in there and watch who gets focused!
The warrior I believe is actually all zerker, or mostly zerker. He just happens to play a highly mobile build, and uses the immunity skills well. He hides well in a group because he is so flamboyant.
That doesn’t surprise me at all, warriors in good hands are still hard to bring down even with zerker. I definitely wasn’t saying there was anything wrong with the group, there clearly isn’t. Just observing that guardians and warriors “tend” to not go down as easy as most necros you fight (This is more because of the number of necro’s running around recently that die if you look sternly at them). Put a staff ele in there and watch who gets focused!
Very true, staff ele is focused before necro. Which explains why you never see a roaming staff ele.
I have to admit that i never get why people would call target on a condition necro (which very reliably has dire gear, plague and last gap). It simply takes too much time and cooldowns to kill. [I understand calling target on power necros or if i see a flesh golem] Gs mesmers, rangers, engis, staff eles make for so much easier targets.
Overall i don’t believe that necro has to be carried by a supportive group setup. Our group runs without a guardian or warrior with a focus on elusive glass cannon builds. So i get a lot more focus than i’d like and am forced to take two defensive utilities (So i’m glancing with envious eyes on everybody that has the room to use Bip…). Necro forces you to learn to kite the hard way.
Dealing damage against tripple shout groups (etc.) can be hard. In these fights i tend to focus on assisting on the target a lot more, rather than the usual aoe condi pressure. However there is no build that provides aoe condi removal that doesn’t come at a cost to damage.
I have to admit that i never get why people would call target on a condition necro (which very reliably has dire gear, plague and last gap). It simply takes too much time and cooldowns to kill. [I understand calling target on power necros or if i see a flesh golem] Gs mesmers, rangers, engis, staff eles make for so much easier targets.
Overall i don’t believe that necro has to be carried by a supportive group setup. Our group runs without a guardian or warrior with a focus on elusive glass cannon builds. So i get a lot more focus than i’d like and am forced to take two defensive utilities (So i’m glancing with envious eyes on everybody that has the room to use Bip…). Necro forces you to learn to kite the hard way.
Dealing damage against tripple shout groups (etc.) can be hard. In these fights i tend to focus on assisting on the target a lot more, rather than the usual aoe condi pressure. However there is no build that provides aoe condi removal that doesn’t come at a cost to damage.
Not sure I can agree on some of those targets. You can spend a REALLY long time chasing a GS : Sword/Torch power mesmer with his extreme access to stealth, and the fact he may be running prismatic, a very common build. I just about never see a small group staff ele. Engineers can be insanely tanky, most wear dire or perlexity, and have stealth and invulns/blocks for quite some time.
The ranger I agree with. Most WvW rangers are some form of Bow, and they are great focus targets, even with their single short duration stealth. I honestly prefer it over a necro target just because you don’t have to worry about DS coming in when they are at 1% hp.
Unless we can identify a specific threat, like when we run into Rennoko, or an especially easy target like a full glass longbow ranger/staff ele, we prioritize enemy necros for a couple reasons.
1. Most necros are amazingly bad, they do little and are amazingly reliable epidemic targets. (They don’t randomly go invuln making it miss).
2. They generally cause cripple/chill/fear/weakness which is exceedingly annoying and makes it harder for my melee peeps to get things done.
3. Easy stomp, stability or blind stomps and it’s out of the fight. Compared to a thief/Mesmer/ele that won’t sit still. (Corpse epi is easier too)
4. While very rare, occasionally the necro is horrifyingly dangerous and could quickly drop my other party members. Generally these are very skilled condition necros. In this situation I am often the only member of my party that can handle the kind of pressure they can apply. This is very rare, Rennoko is actually the only one we consistently run into. (Iris Ashensoul is also one, but we’re on the same server now luckily).
After the necro is down we focus whoever is lowest generally, seeing as somebody usually had a bad experience with epidemic. (If it happens to be a skilled necro, we’re usually still having a clash of titans by the time my party has either killed off the other party, or my guys have wiped. So obviously whoever party won is going to win that.)
Even an underpowered class would look good within a competent team though. The more people you add in a fight, the less you are really seeing balance in one player or class.
I think the real goal of the class design in this game should be that its not always the right move for a team to try to focus the Necro, but react more to what is going on in a particular fight’s dynamics.
It’s really gets old getting focused all the time, whether you can manage to get away or not.
really fun vid.
i think u could improve a bit on using/timing your doom. u missed a few =P
do you have weakening shroud? i find that trait to be most useful for when youre getting trained.
but yea, echoing what others are saying…this is why when leading a havoc group, i always primary the necro. damage output is insane, but it’s very well balanced by the fact that once you force him to pop all his CD’s, there’s no way out. you will drop a lot, and depend on the coordination of your teammates for a fast rez.
(edited by mistsim.2748)
Blind + Chill on plague #2 = ludicrous amounts of damage mitigation, I’m in love.
And getting focused grows old really fast!
Once proud member of Extraordinary Gentlemen [EXG]{DESO4LIFE}
@Rennoko:
I’m biased due to playing with a burst heavy group that can without much effort kill mesmers (given that they are glassy, as almost all wvw mesmers are). I have to admit that i haven’t seen an engi that was dangerous or a problem to kill in… forever.
In the end picking the initial target is always a risk and even the average bearbow could turn out to be pvt, with s/d offset, signet of stone and rampage as one.
It, of course, also depends on your group setup. Mine at least can’t reliably burst a dire necro down.
1. Most necros are amazingly bad, they do little and are amazingly reliable epidemic targets. (They don’t randomly go invuln making it miss).
2. They generally cause cripple/chill/fear/weakness which is exceedingly annoying and makes it harder for my melee peeps to get things done.
3. Easy stomp, stability or blind stomps and it’s out of the fight. Compared to a thief/Mesmer/ele that won’t sit still. (Corpse epi is easier too)
4. While very rare, occasionally the necro is horrifyingly dangerous and could quickly drop my other party members. Generally these are very skilled condition necros. In this situation I am often the only member of my party that can handle the kind of pressure they can apply. This is very rare, Rennoko is actually the only one we consistently run into. (Iris Ashensoul is also one, but we’re on the same server now luckily).
I do agree with these points. However in my experience (bad) necros immediatly drop into plague as a panic reaction and remain there for the entire duration. I’m usually content with just leaving them there and focusing them once they come out again. I don’t quite understand why people would chase a blinding plague.
I do agree with these points. However in my experience (bad) necros immediatly drop into plague as a panic reaction and remain there for the entire duration. I’m usually content with just leaving them there and focusing them once they come out again. I don’t quite understand why people would chase a blinding plague.
When playing in a condition group, a necro going into plague is one of the best things that can happen. Stack them up on conditions and epidemic away.
I have watched your video with a lot of curiosity… i was suspecting something and i was correct…
I have seen you time and time again surviving people ganking up on you, via plague or teleport or even getting res by your team… and my final word on the matter is this:
You have outskilled all those who have failed to kill you, they in fact were quite bad… significantly bad…
For me this video does not prove that necromancer can survive focus fire, it proves that you can survive focus fire if you heavily outskill your opponents + have help…
Regardless… you play well, and congratulations for that… just that it is not the class that carries you, it is you… who carry the class.
ps: just to prove my point a bit more… i am willing to demonstrate at any time that, even though you survived 4-5 players at a time… you won’t be able to survive me + 1 friend of mine, you would be dead in under 30 seconds… hell… i solo other necromancers faster, but i am coming from the idea that you are not “other necromancers”, you are a skilled necromancer + your premise of surviving focus fire… therefor +1 on my team.
I am not saying you are bad, on the contrary i am saying you are a good player… yet it is the class that pulls you down, you would do more if you could… but you simply can’t…
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ps: just to prove my point a bit more… i am willing to demonstrate at any time that, even though you survived 4-5 players at a time… you won’t be able to survive me + 1 friend of mine, you would be dead in under 30 seconds…
I am not saying you are bad, on the contrary i am saying you are a good player… yet it is the class that pulls you down, you would do more if you could… but you simply can’t…
That applies to every class, not just the necromancer.
And before you say other classes can escape and avoid getting focused altogether, that’s a different issue. Once you actually get focused by 2 equally skilled players you’re done.
ps: just to prove my point a bit more… i am willing to demonstrate at any time that, even though you survived 4-5 players at a time… you won’t be able to survive me + 1 friend of mine, you would be dead in under 30 seconds…
I am not saying you are bad, on the contrary i am saying you are a good player… yet it is the class that pulls you down, you would do more if you could… but you simply can’t…
That applies to every class, not just the necromancer.
And before you say other classes can escape and avoid getting focused altogether, that’s a different issue. Once you actually get focused by 2 equally skilled players you’re done.
No it does not… it does not apply to elementalists, thieves and mesmers… that’s my point… that was my point in the other thread as well.
Nemesis live-stream channel - focusing mainly on Guild Wars 2, League of Legends and Dota II.
I know what you mean, but in this video Rennoko wants to show how he deals with focus, not how to escape it. If an ele, thief or mesmer gets hit with the same damage they would also be downed (or even faster).
And if you want I can offer you the same challenge: A friend and I against any class you want. You won’t survive unless you choose not to engage at all.
I know what you mean, but in this video Rennoko wants to show how he deals with focus, not how to escape it. If an ele, thief or mesmer gets hit with the same damage they would also be downed (or even faster).
And if you want I can offer you the same challenge: A friend and I against any class you want. You won’t survive unless you choose not to engage at all.
Some classes have that luxury… some classes when they see things are getting bad, they leave… therefor avoid defeat, other classes such as necromancer do not have that option on the table.
Of course PvP is fun… if you either win… or leave… For skilled elementalists, thieves and mesmers… you either win or you go somewhere else and win there…
Nemesis live-stream channel - focusing mainly on Guild Wars 2, League of Legends and Dota II.
I have watched your video with a lot of curiosity… i was suspecting something and i was correct…
I have seen you time and time again surviving people ganking up on you, via plague or teleport or even getting res by your team… and my final word on the matter is this:
You have outskilled all those who have failed to kill you, they in fact were quite bad… significantly bad…
For me this video does not prove that necromancer can survive focus fire, it proves that you can survive focus fire if you heavily outskill your opponents + have help…Regardless… you play well, and congratulations for that… just that it is not the class that carries you, it is you… who carry the class.
ps: just to prove my point a bit more… i am willing to demonstrate at any time that, even though you survived 4-5 players at a time… you won’t be able to survive me + 1 friend of mine, you would be dead in under 30 seconds… hell… i solo other necromancers faster, but i am coming from the idea that you are not “other necromancers”, you are a skilled necromancer + your premise of surviving focus fire… therefor +1 on my team.
I am not saying you are bad, on the contrary i am saying you are a good player… yet it is the class that pulls you down, you would do more if you could… but you simply can’t…
To be honest, I think the organzied RET group would take offense to being called significantly bad. Certainly there are bad individual players in these videos, but not to such an extreme degree that you claim. You need to watch more WvW videos if you think these people were bad. Most groups will auto attack from 1200 the guardian. WvW players are not much like Spvp players, they don’t have the general awareness.
I agree that I survive with help, but honestly there was not much these groups could have done to take me down any faster. They were all hitting me as hard as possible, and since both DS and plague are instant, they cannot stop me from soaking that damage. I am literally forcing them to beat through 80,000 hit points.
The way the game currently works, stealth is so unbelivebly powerful, especially in WvW, that thief/mesmer will always be the king of outnumbered fights. When you can run in any direction, and I have no way to know which way you went. You have long range teleports, you have leaps skills, I will NEVER catch a good mesmer or thief under those circumstances. At a high enough skill cap they become impossible to kill without overwhelming numbers. They should take a page from WILDSTAR and use a progressivly easy to see distortion field for stealth skills so there is some counter play.
I am absolutely certain that you and one other person would kill me in 30 seconds, especially in Spvp where I lose my stat cushion. But my implication was not that I can handle 2v1 odds alone. I tried to make it clear, and I have said numerous times in the past, necro has a serious problem in outmatched fights alone.
To be absolutely crystal clear, I am NOT claiming necromancer is in a good spot. This video was not intended to paint a picture of necro survival that is A’OK. I wanted people who play necro and get trained to know there are ways to try and stay alive, there are team comps that work better if these keeps happening to you, and you don’t always have to die. I get frustrated getting trained, and I know other people must as well.
I do agree with these points. However in my experience (bad) necros immediatly drop into plague as a panic reaction and remain there for the entire duration. I’m usually content with just leaving them there and focusing them once they come out again. I don’t quite understand why people would chase a blinding plague.
I usually drop into Plague for full duration in fights, but the reason for that is Plague is massively disruptive, regardless of whether or not it’s being focused. If I get focused, great! They’re wasting soooo much time. If I don’t get focused, I sit in the middle of them causing their damage and cooldowns to take a vacation.
You don’t run in Plague, you stick on your enemies.
I do agree with these points. However in my experience (bad) necros immediatly drop into plague as a panic reaction and remain there for the entire duration. I’m usually content with just leaving them there and focusing them once they come out again. I don’t quite understand why people would chase a blinding plague.
I usually drop into Plague for full duration in fights, but the reason for that is Plague is massively disruptive, regardless of whether or not it’s being focused. If I get focused, great! They’re wasting soooo much time. If I don’t get focused, I sit in the middle of them causing their damage and cooldowns to take a vacation.
You don’t run in Plague, you stick on your enemies.
Indeed. You should never have to chase a Plague. A Plague should be easily found sitting on top of you, inflicting conditions while a teammates take advantage the cover it gives.
That being said, I like to use it a bit later in the fight. I find that Plague is more unnerving to enemies when they’re a bit lower on health as they become more aware of the conditions they’re being hit with. Many panic (retaliation helps with this) and try to flee the circle which makes it easier for teammates to finish the job.
I have watched your video with a lot of curiosity… i was suspecting something and i was correct…
I have seen you time and time again surviving people ganking up on you, via plague or teleport or even getting res by your team… and my final word on the matter is this:
You have outskilled all those who have failed to kill you, they in fact were quite bad… significantly bad…
For me this video does not prove that necromancer can survive focus fire, it proves that you can survive focus fire if you heavily outskill your opponents + have help…Regardless… you play well, and congratulations for that… just that it is not the class that carries you, it is you… who carry the class.
ps: just to prove my point a bit more… i am willing to demonstrate at any time that, even though you survived 4-5 players at a time… you won’t be able to survive me + 1 friend of mine, you would be dead in under 30 seconds… hell… i solo other necromancers faster, but i am coming from the idea that you are not “other necromancers”, you are a skilled necromancer + your premise of surviving focus fire… therefor +1 on my team.
I am not saying you are bad, on the contrary i am saying you are a good player… yet it is the class that pulls you down, you would do more if you could… but you simply can’t…
this is only an issue with the way you guys play the necro (dire/rabid, condis). valk power necros actually have more survivability. u have the exact same capacity to survive burst, except youre cranking out 6k lifeblast crits, and doing upwards of 20k aoe damage over 5 seconds. downing people quickly gives you more survivability than “attrition play”. mind you, it’s a team build. and admittedly, condition play has a much higher skill ceiling and is more appropriate for tiny fights (2v2, 3v3). but i will always invite or bring a valk necro to an organized fight (lets say 5+ players on each side) over a conditionmancer. most of rennoko’s situations would have ended very quickly and horribly for the other team if rennoko was in fact a valk necro accompanied by those guards.
(edited by mistsim.2748)
I have watched your video with a lot of curiosity… i was suspecting something and i was correct…
I have seen you time and time again surviving people ganking up on you, via plague or teleport or even getting res by your team… and my final word on the matter is this:
You have outskilled all those who have failed to kill you, they in fact were quite bad… significantly bad…
For me this video does not prove that necromancer can survive focus fire, it proves that you can survive focus fire if you heavily outskill your opponents + have help…Regardless… you play well, and congratulations for that… just that it is not the class that carries you, it is you… who carry the class.
ps: just to prove my point a bit more… i am willing to demonstrate at any time that, even though you survived 4-5 players at a time… you won’t be able to survive me + 1 friend of mine, you would be dead in under 30 seconds… hell… i solo other necromancers faster, but i am coming from the idea that you are not “other necromancers”, you are a skilled necromancer + your premise of surviving focus fire… therefor +1 on my team.
I am not saying you are bad, on the contrary i am saying you are a good player… yet it is the class that pulls you down, you would do more if you could… but you simply can’t…
this is only an issue with the way you guys play the necro (dire/rabid, condis). valk power necros dont have this issue. u have the exact same survivability against burst, except youre cranking out 6k lifeblast crits, and doing upwards of 20k aoe damage over 5 seconds. downing people quickly gives you more survivability than “attrition play”. mind you, it’s a team build.
What? A valk necro doesn’t have any toughness at all. Which means you get backstabbed for 10k. You also have no precision, which means your DS crit rate is 50% assuming you take the 30 point trait, so its only every other life blast that is 6k.
I would argue I can put out just as much burst in dire as you can in valk, with burning and terror and bleeds. I also have all the extra toughness.
Don’t get me wrong, I like power necro, but valk gear doesn’t let you take that many extra hits compared to zerker, and you are dropping a metric load of crit. Also your damage is down right ignorable when you are not in DS. You have tons of crit damage and a crit rate of like 5-10%.
What? A valk necro doesn’t have any toughness at all. Which means you get backstabbed for 10k. You also have no precision, which means your DS crit rate is 50% assuming you take the 30 point trait, so its only every other life blast that is 6k.
54% in full Valk gear with nothing in Curses, but using Deathly Perception. Minor nitpick :p
But yeah, only Soldiers gear matches Dire for durability and both are only surpassed by Sentinels. Going Valk gear means you are wasting an entire stat when you aren’t in death shroud, because the base 4% crit rate just will not cut it.
Eww. I would never go Valk as power… Mixing Soldier with Berserker is the best way to keep your damage higher while gaining some survival.
As for soaking damage… I have always felt very durable in WvW with 20k HP and 2800 armor. I usually play with spectal skills, so that has a big part to do with it. My LF pool is also 17k, I sit in it longer than I would like sometimes.
I also use life steal food, sigil, and traits, so when I am not soaking damage with DS and refilling it with spectrals, I am healing myself with auto attacks and channel skills.
im not here to hijack the thread with my “valk build” so i’ll just end it with this post. there are a few misconceptions im going to address:
- best type of damage mitigation is downing somebody instantly or in seconds; when youre in an organized group of people, offense is the best defense. as the numbers piles up, attrition becomes less and less effective. when your group is doing more “instant damage”, you dont have to worry much about sustain
- stats for a proper valk/zerker build with buffs are: 2600 power, 50% crit chance out of DS, 23-26k HP, LF pool 20k, 95-100% crit damage, and about 1k toughness; crit chance in DS is 100%. aoe damage is something like 20k over 5 seconds with wells and life transfer, but more importantly for skirmishing is your life blast which you can snipe people with. tanky heavies are hit for about 4k per blast so guards go down really fast; glass thieves are mesmers are usually 3-shot at worst. out of DS, staff 3 and 4 hit for 3-4k aoe, and axe/focus can burn down any boon-heavy scrub in under 10 seconds if they decide to stick around.
- getting PVT or knights is really a waste because you rob yourself of that sweet 100% crit damage. you dont need all that survivability if youre in a good group. for GvG or GvZ it’s a crime to equip PVT/knights on the necro, unless youre brand new to the game. u just need high HP and LF. LF bar fills up very quickly as you down more people. with coordination, kills = limitless LF.
- you’re more mobile. youre not sticking around to build up condis on someone. you can nuke while moving, or nuke then move. mobility on its own is worth the 600 toughness difference between builds.
so in summary, attrition play doesnt work against a higher number of competent opponents. what works is mobility, high burst and the accompanying element of surprise. i did play a rabid necro for a long time, but it’s very difficult for me to go back, at least in gold league, unless we’re doing duels or something like 2v5 for example.
(edited by mistsim.2748)