Guild Wars 2

I run with my WvW guild group as a power-well backline necro and was wondering what the consensus here is about using Lich or Plague as the elite. I’ve used Plague for a long time and love it for the bit of survivability we get. Lich seems like a liability as you’re so easily spotted, focused, and killed, but it does offer much higher damage for a short time.

So, what do you all run in WvW when in a small/big groups?

I never use lich in wvw. Maybe in a zerg its ok. But under 10-15 people, I feel it’s much too fragile. Plague gives you a nice stomp, and flesh golem gives you nice CC.

Malchior.1928:

I never use lich in wvw. Maybe in a zerg its ok. But under 10-15 people, I feel it’s much too fragile. Plague gives you a nice stomp, and flesh golem gives you nice CC.

Sadly, Flesh Golem is often CC before he CC since the update of stability which left him with 1 stack of Stability for 15sec rather than Stability for 15sec.
Mind you that a CCed Flesh Golem do not Charge , but the skill goes on full cooldown.

I use Plague, mostly for the blindspam

since we have very limited tools to escape or survive focus i run with plague all the time.

If you are running with a group use Plague.

The purpose of Plague is not to kill anybody (damage sucks) but to be able to charge right into an enemy group and separate members of the enemy Zerg from their guardians and elementalist. You will be using plague # 3.

Plague poison also heavily nerfs the HP of any downed enemies that rally.

Seriously, don’t try to roam with a necromancer, but if you do, lich form might be better than plague for a small scale fight. You have no business roaming on a slow class that can’t escape.

Lich in small group (like, not even 5, more like 2-3 people), plague in anything above. Lich is like painting a huge bullseye on yourself while considerably reducing your flexibility in movement and skill usage. Only when a zerg bomb group decide that all use lich will I use it. Otherwise, plague is for an extra stunbreaker/stability. Its long cooldown for such simple usage (because it sure is worthless for damage), but if you arent going to use lich… well then there is nothing else anyway. Golem is fairly pointless in WvW (it could have been of some use in 1v1 if the AI wasnt completely braindead).

Definitely go with plague for anything more than a small group (3+ players). Problem with Lich besides it being a “I’m here come kill me” neon sign, is that in this meta, reflects are everywhere. I’ve seen so many Lich die to their own 1 spam because it’s hard to see and discern enemy reflection from friendly.

Also WvW is a fluid environment, and Lich lacks mobility, escapes, and heck it doesn’t even have Dark Path. Often you’ll find yourself popping it and wasting it because your group is moving back or dodging bombs, and there goes your “elite” ability. Not to mention Deathly Claws can be avoided by simply side strafing or people moving, so the only way to use it effectively is to be on top of someone. And if you are on top of someone, you can better control them by being in deathshroud or even your normal form with your dagger.

Plague on the other hand, can save your life so you can live and bomb another day. A dead necro is kitteneless necro. Power wellmancers bomb hard enough without Lich that you should always focus on survival and staying alive, this way you can contribute the best to your guild/zerg/group. Plague will save your life, giving you room for error should you get out of position, or get focused. And it’ll allow you to get through a hot choke point when making pushes.

gavyne.6847:

Definitely go with plague for anything more than a small group (3+ players). Problem with Lich besides it being a “I’m here come kill me” neon sign, is that in this meta, reflects are everywhere. I’ve seen so many Lich die to their own 1 spam because it’s hard to see and discern enemy reflection from friendly.

Also WvW is a fluid environment, and Lich lacks mobility, escapes, and heck it doesn’t even have Dark Path. Often you’ll find yourself popping it and wasting it because your group is moving back or dodging bombs, and there goes your “elite” ability. Not to mention Deathly Claws can be avoided by simply side strafing or people moving, so the only way to use it effectively is to be on top of someone. And if you are on top of someone, you can better control them by being in deathshroud or even your normal form with your dagger.

Plague on the other hand, can save your life so you can live and bomb another day. A dead necro is kitteneless necro. Power wellmancers bomb hard enough without Lich that you should always focus on survival and staying alive, this way you can contribute the best to your guild/zerg/group. Plague will save your life, giving you room for error should you get out of position, or get focused. And it’ll allow you to get through a hot choke point when making pushes.

^ THIS!

15 characters

A lot of T1 necros use lich. It has some good utilities and a very hard hitting (and very quick) auto attack. It makes you a big target though…

The way I see it, Lich is heavy artillery. Hits hard, but needs good positioning and/or defensive support. If you have a guardian or an ele (or both) passively assisting you, Lich works well. If you don’t have that support, or if you need to support others, Plague is the way to go

I used to always pack Lich but since they nerfed stability and essentially made “foot in the grave” a bad source, Ive had to switch to plague to get me through the rough spots.

Actually enjoying it anyway… so well played Anet.

strakul.1826:

I run with my WvW guild group as a power-well backline necro and was wondering what the consensus here is about using Lich or Plague as the elite. I’ve used Plague for a long time and love it for the bit of survivability we get. Lich seems like a liability as you’re so easily spotted, focused, and killed, but it does offer much higher damage for a short time.

So, what do you all run in WvW when in a small/big groups?

If you are running full GLASS, then lich form for the back line auto’s of doom.

If you are tanky then I would go plague. I use it as an escape, but I also front line as a necro and need a gtfo when deep in a zerg after my allies have fallen back.

IMO: playing glass is all about positioning as a necro. If you run glass then just expect to die if you are ever out of position.

Plague is definitely the safe bet, but if you’re more experienced and confident with your group and positioning, you can get away with Lich. Failing that, superior numbers can bridge most weaknesses.

Lich hits like a truck and will delete players in a handful of crits. One problem is that (at least in my experience) the autoattack projectile is pretty slow, seems to have poor tracking, and it’s honestly just way more difficult to gauge distances when a giant kitten lich takes up half the screen.

The enemy back line is pretty vulnerable, but you have no way to safely cross the distance to reliably hit them until after the initial charge. If a thief or mesmer jumps on you, you can usually just bury them on the spot, especially if other liches are near you. Lich also does great damage to the enemy front line, and they tend to be far more easier to hit provided you watch out for Wall of Reflection or find yourself isolated and jumped on.

Just remember two important things:

- You lose all minions when casting it, so if you have a pre-cast Flesh Wurm somewhere as an escape and you get jumped on as a lich, you’d better have a plan B.
- Take the spectral trait in Soul Reaping to increase its duration and lower its CD.

Vydahr.4285:

The way I see it, Lich is heavy artillery. Hits hard, but needs good positioning and/or defensive support. If you have a guardian or an ele (or both) passively assisting you, Lich works well. If you don’t have that support, or if you need to support others, Plague is the way to go

The Necro itself is the heavy artillery. When you go into Lichform, you loose that and become a .50 cal sniper rifle… that has the visibility and mobility of an elephant.

No really, try going 1v20 (find any guild group and rush them head on). Do it as Lich and do it as Necro. I think you will find that wellbomb is far more effective artillery. If Lich is better, at least I got you to 1v20.

Dawdler.8521:

Vydahr.4285:

The way I see it, Lich is heavy artillery. Hits hard, but needs good positioning and/or defensive support. If you have a guardian or an ele (or both) passively assisting you, Lich works well. If you don’t have that support, or if you need to support others, Plague is the way to go

The Necro itself is the heavy artillery. When you go into Lichform, you loose that and become a .50 cal sniper rifle… that has the visibility and mobility of an elephant.

No really, try going 1v20 (find any guild group and rush them head on). Do it as Lich and do it as Necro. I think you will find that wellbomb is far more effective artillery. If Lich is better, at least I got you to 1v20.

I’d say both are heavy artillery. They both need allies around to be most effective. And they die in 1v20s as fast as anyone (even invuln only lasts so long)

Besides, wells are damaging for only 6 seconds. And WoS does the damage of one good Lich auto attack in those six seconds. So, really, like I said, a defended Lich will do more damage to the enemy than a well-bomber. But, again, it’s a pretty specific circumstance that that is effective or even feasible

Deathly Claws is just a flawed skill. Travel time is too slow, it’s not homing, it’s affected by terrain/objects, and it can be reflected. You can’t really compare wells to Lich 1, not even close. I’ve recorded fights and compared when I used Lich to without, I’ve found that I actually lose dps popping Lich in WvW. Due to the slow, straight line projectiles of Deathly Claws, they simply don’t connect often. And when you think you’ve got them where you want them, someone pops reflects and you actually need to stop attacking or you’ll kill yourself. Reflects are in the current meta and it’s used all the time in WvW.

The best time to use Lich I’ve found is when there are lots of downies, you spam Lich 1 to finish downies that can’t move, and tag for bags. It’s honestly a waste of an elite skill in my opinion. Sure there are glorious 10k+ moments, but they’re honestly rare and in large scale WvW, Lich are rarely if ever the deciding factor of winning battles. Wells on the other hand, properly placed and timed, can end a battle within 10 seconds.

Compare Lich to say, simply popping Death Shroud. You have DS 5 + 4, which is an aoe cc + bomb that isn’t affected by los, and can not be reflected. You’ve got DS 3 fear, which when used on someone under 50%, you often can burst someone down with 2 lifeblasts. Then there’s DS 2, which is actually mobility for necros, a 1200 range gap closer (or 1200 range “hitch a ride” get out of dodge) ability. Not to mention aoe chill to boot. And of course there’s lifeblast, while not as fast casting as Deathly Claws, nor does it hit as hard, it is homing, and it pierces when properly traited.

I just find that with Lich, you lose way too much utilities, mobility, control, and useful skills. Compare to Plague though, 1 necro using plague 2 can blind 5 Lich and neutralize them, that’s how bad Lich is. A few necros rolling Plague 2 can neutralize a melee train to assist your raid should they truck through your well bombs. Plague allows you to roll through hot choke points, enabling you to actually bomb and do dps. And Plague buys you time if you’re in a pinch, often making a difference between life and death. A dead necro is very much useless, your raid needs you to lay big bombs.

Lich is more useful in 1v1 situations or solo roaming situations. Plague on the other hand, is infinitely more beneficial to your zerg/raid. But with that said, you’ll likely want to run what your commanders ask you to. Some guilds run specific comps and fighting strategies that might make good use of Lich. Personally I always keep Plague on myself, because of my aggressive playstyle so Plague works better for me.

If small group plague.

If zerg with lots of backline lich for ice bows and lichs on second push.

Anything else in a zerg plague

I like Plague when zerging. It’s a tremendous amount of survivability when you’re overwhelmed and can often be the difference between dying where you stand and making it back to a friendly tower. Blinding people is particularly helpful.

When roaming, I prefer Flesh Golem. I know that sounds insane on both counts, but hear me out: as a Necro, you’re probably not going to be able to escape from a giant enemy zerg in your face, but if you pay attention to your surroundings, you can still do a good job of picking off groups of 1 or 2 foes, sometimes even a few more if you play your cards right. It’s a high-risk playstyle but I enjoy the challenge.

Lich Form has never really sat right with me, though, particularly for roaming. #1 hits like a mach truck, sure, but you don’t gain much defensive ability while losing access to the survivability tricks we need to get by. It’s also just for 15 seconds and then you’re done, and those 15 seconds are great but your foe can also just scuttle away until you’re out of juice. The Flesh Golem, meanwhile, is going to be up pretty much all the time in small fights, which means you not only get an extra source of continuous damage and Cripple, but you also get someone to help soak up the occasional bit of damage and a massive knockdown from a direction your foe probably won’t expect.

YMMV, but I swear by my lil’ golem buddy.

You use Lich when wells are on cooldown, and all necros need to pop it at the same time. 15 seconds is more than enough time to get off each of the skills.

Plague is nice for pushes and mid – frontline support via Blinds. It’s good for stability and defensive utility but due to it’s lack of damaging effects it’s more or less a last resort to escape death if Shroud and your heal are on cooldown.

Lich is nice for cleaning up after a push. You should never head in to a fight by popping Lich because like you’ve said you’ll just immediately get focused. It’s good when your zerg starts to win the fight and the enemy is slowly wiping. You pop Lich, drop a Grim Scepter (#5 skill) on a cluster of enemies and continue the push by tagging the low health players that are trying to escape.

They both have their benefits but I would say Plague is best since it can provide a bit of support by Blinding and Poisoning people and can save your butt if things go south.

Thustlewhumber.7416:

You use Lich when wells are on cooldown, and all necros need to pop it at the same time. 15 seconds is more than enough time to get off each of the skills.

I know, but I still don’t like having such a tight timer on when I can use a given set of abilities. I like Plague Form because it serves a distinct purpose and allows you to take actions you otherwise would have a difficult time performing, namely walking through a zerg. Lich Form is fundamentally just like your regular build, it just hits harder and gives you fewer tools.

As I said, though, YMMV.

Lich is good, not going into details but my guild uses it very effectively in 20-25man raids. Just it has to be used in a particular manner if you dont want to be focused.

Surprisingly I haven’t seen enemy guilds use the tactic against us, and I actually think the shock of seeing what we are doing is part of why it is so effective. Which is why we don’t actually use it often, and only active when we need a quick shock and awe

Just don’t be the only guy popping Lich in a group fight. If all your Necros pop Lich at the same time, you’re less likely to be focused down.

nekretaal.6485:

Seriously, don’t try to roam with a necromancer, but if you do, lich form might be better than plague for a small scale fight. You have no business roaming on a slow class that can’t escape.

Actually, as a class that can destroy camps quickly as both condi and power, you very much have business roaming. Also, a WvW Necro in 1v1 is really quite strong. Some of the more meta Thief/Mesmer builds can be difficult to fight, but even dying in some 1v1s every once in a while doesn’t mean you shouldn’t be roaming.

And if you ARE roaming, I highly recommend Plague form, not Lich. Lich is incredibly easy to counter, while Plague allows you to actually get a stomp off without putting points into FitG. With the coming and going of randoms in and out of fights, guaranteeing a stomp then buying some time for your cooldowns with blind-spam on another intruder is extremely good.