Guild Wars 2

http://i47.tinypic.com/2n8mqub.jpg

My only remaining motivation to play the class was wvw but thief is better here too. On the positive side, light armor looks much, much better than medium armor.

note: fairly high hp, and around 200-300 toughness over base toughness. I wouldn’t mind stacking more toughness but good luck getting condition damage and toughness gear in a reasonable amount of time.

You are playing a necro, and have less than 20k hp.

Its fairly evident you have a very, very “glass” cannon build.

My engineer has less HP scaling than my necro, and even in my pure damage gear I have more HP than that.

Yes, Thieves have insane burst damage.
This is why you always wanna dodge out of it and fight them when they have no initiative left.
Easier said than done of course.
They are very dangerous.

This doesn’t really have anything to do with the Necromancer.
Necromancer and Warrior share the top spot on Health.
This means that every Profession other than the Warrior would have died even faster.
And Warriors don’t have Death Shroud, so they might actually die faster than Necromancers as well.

You need to get out of the combo somehow or interrupt it.
Either Dodge, Blind, Weaken, Daze, Launch or Stun. (Depending on skills/Profession)

In your case you could have Dazed (Difficult) or Dodge rolled.
By the looks of it you also have a full Life Force bar so you could have entered Death Shroud and eaten the combo, maybe even used Doom.

True, you might have still died after your Death Shroud ended (Thieves are so freaking fast), but you should have at least tried to mitigate the damage.

If you end up 1vs1 with a Thief and he gets his first hit he’s playing to his strengths.
Especially if he came from behind while you were running away.

Necromancers are at their best in the middle of a crowd.
Life Force, Marks, Wells and Epidemic are all better in massive battles.
Thieves on the other hand wanna pick off people one by one.

Note that Thieves have as much health as Elementalists and Guardians do and most of their defense relies on running away, blinding or hiding.
If you catch one with their pants down they are dead.

so what’s the 3 stats to focus for wvw necro?
toughness cond and power?

There are no magic top three stats for any profession, it all depends on your build, team composition and playstyle.

As for the OP, chill. I’m going to be blunt, I’m getting somewhat tired of all the negative threads.

The combat log says you were in melee range for each of his big attacks. The teleport and stealth makes it difficult of course, but nothing stops you dropping a fear circle, dropping your snare on 2, rolling away or popping DS.

Furthermore I can see your armour is broken there, now was that before or after you were killed? It seems to me, to be fully broken, it would atleast have had to have been really damaged before. Maybe that’s why he was hitting you for such silly damage.

Stack more defense, go ahead. Otherwise offensive burst professions will be tricky. You could always go for Vitality+Condition damage at first, or wear Prec+Con Dmg gear mixed with some Vita/toughness jewellery. Don’t put all your eggs into one basket. WvW is large scale, be glad it was only the one Thief and no mass AoE or gank, but because of such massive nature going in as a glass cannon is alwasy going to be a very high risk play style.

As said, WvW is large scale group based. If you’re rage quitting over a 1 vs 1 with a Thief there you may need to rethink things.

hellokittyonline.7532:

so what’s the 3 stats to focus for wvw necro?
toughness cond and power?

choose either cond or power
then precision
then toughness
some vit

generally speaking, you want to be in the ballpark of 2000 toughness and above 20k hp. then its up to you, more damage or more survivality.

I don’t think you guys understand.

1. hp: I have very low hp? I have more hp than an elementalist or guardian can even attain. 20k hp is low now. I also have 200-300 tough over base.
2. Yes ideally I would have tough/condi dmge/prec build but this gear is not available without much time, money spent, and not available at exotic level gems (reading comprehension please: I already addressed 1 and 2).
3. No kitten I can do stuff like dodge or DS if I am fortunate enough to have lifeforce built up. IN this situation I actually had full life force & endurance, but I died before I could react since I wasn’t really expecting it. The issue is, I shouldn’t have to worry about dying near instantly like this. Additionally even if I had survived the first hit, what am I going to do afterwards? Fairly stacked odds there.

Please don’t give me advice like that; it’s patronising and offensive.

Kisses.1054:

I don’t think you guys understand.

1. hp: I have very low hp? I have more hp than an elementalist or guardian can even attain. 20k hp is low now. I also have 200-300 tough over base.

My level 80 necro has 22k hp with gear that’s mostly under 80 and my PvP necro, depending on spec and runes, has between 24.5-26.5k hp, so yes, for a necro 20k is low.

do we stack vit or toughness ??

Kisses.1054:

IN this situation I actually had full life force & endurance, but I died before I could react since I wasn’t really expecting it. The issue is, I shouldn’t have to worry about dying near instantly like this. Additionally even if I had survived the first hit, what am I going to do afterwards? Fairly stacked odds there.

Please don’t give me advice like that; it’s patronising and offensive.

I don’t know how to sugarcoat it, sorry if I came off as offensive.

What I told you is the truth.
Either you Dodge, use Death Shroud or you die.
You didn’t, so you died.

Thieves may or may not be overpowered but it has nothing to do with being a Necromancer.
Just look what Elementalists think of them:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hh5zjK7ITpQ

My build is 20/30/0/20/0 I own everything.

As a necro, I have no problems soloing a thief.. pretty easy to kill compared to a mesmer lol.

draculthemad.6273:

You are playing a necro, and have less than 20k hp.

Its fairly evident you have a very, very “glass” cannon build.

My engineer has less HP scaling than my necro, and even in my pure damage gear I have more HP than that.

If he is stacking toughness then he will have less hp. Most other classes have less than 20k and still do fine so what’s your point?

draculthemad.6273:

You are playing a necro, and have less than 20k hp.

Its fairly evident you have a very, very “glass” cannon build.

My engineer has less HP scaling than my necro, and even in my pure damage gear I have more HP than that.

20k hp is pretty high actually… unless you spec into vitality, then you can get like 29k. 20k with toughness is normal.

The above posters seem to have gotten it right. You said it yourself: you weren’t expecting a high burst. You messed up and died.

At this point, you should now be familiar with this huge burst. The Thief can realistically only do this two, three, or four times in a short period as Cloak and Dagger has a 6 initiative cost while the utility skills have a pretty long cooldown. Unless he’s a real one-trick pony, then if you survive those couple of seconds, you’ve won the fight.

So do what you can to survive those couple of seconds. Looking at your build, I’m surprised you didn’t survive. It sounds like he really just caught you with your pants down and you’re upset.

Really the worst thing you can ever do is underestimate your enemy. The moment you do that, you lose (point in case, right?). Treat everyone like he can kill you in about 10 seconds and you’ll go far. You only become the best by trying your best each and every time.

ya 20k hp is actually pretty good for a clothy

yesterday we were farming CoF and I asked one of my elementalist guildies who was there (he is lvl 80) “what is you hp at in here anyway?” and I kitten you not, he said 9k… I thought he was trolling for sure at first lol, but he was serious.

Now I don’t know anything about elementlist builds or how much hp is common at (de-leveled) 75, but if he is any indication then you can’t complain as another clothy that you “only get” 20k hp :P

BaconSoda.3976:

The Thief can realistically only do this two, three, or four times in a short period as Cloak and Dagger has a 6 initiative cost while the utility skills have a pretty long cooldown.

10 points into Shadow Arts makes all stealth skills give you two initiative, so CnD costs a net 4 initiative.
15 points into Trickery increases the initiative cap by 3.
20 points into Shadow Arts increases the initiative regen by 1/3 seconds while in stealth.
20 points into Acrobatics increases initiative regen by 2/10 seconds.
20 points into Critical Strikes grants 2 initiative on signet use.
‘Roll for Initiative’ grants 6 initiative on use.
’Infiltrator’s Signet’ increases initiative regen by 1/10 seconds.

I’m not saying a Thief will have all of these, that all of them are practical, or that it makes it impossible to fight a thief, but they certainly won’t lack enough initiative to chain CnD/Backstab on you ’til the cows come home.

Based on the numbers in that screenshot, those two skills alone only need to hit twice to eat through 28k, and it’s a lot easier for a thief to regain initiative than it is for you to refill your Life Force after sacrificing it to eat the first combo.

So lets assume what you say is true. Lets assume that the only two skills a Thief uses are Cloak and Dagger and Backstab.

Are we Rock ‘Em Sock ’Em Robots? Obviously not because Backstab wouldn’t work if we were. Both of these skills require melee range. I’m not saying kiting should be perfect, but I find it extremely hard to believe that after taking 5,000 damage instantly, someone doesn’t use a dodge, or a fear, or Grasping Dead, or Plague, or Wail of Doom, or Spectral Walk, or Charge (off the Flesh Golem). Since he used his shadowstep first, there’s probably (definitely) a way to get a little distance so he can’t backstab you. And you know, he can only try to backstab you so many times before he can’t do it twice in a row like before.

But I guess I live in a fairy tale world where a person’s skills are filled with control and movement skills that appears to be the OP’s build.

[1:20] Steal – 4.5k
[1:20] Cloak and Dagger – 5.5k
[1:20] Backstab – 8.5k

Total 18.5k damage in what appears to be 4 – 6 seconds (based on the log and general skill activation, cooldowns, and resource generation) is a lot.

Even if you dodge, heal, fear, and DS you are just delaying time until those cooldowns are back up. Your conditions aren’t going to take off damage faster than that Thief build.

In any case I think this may be more of an issue with certain profession / build damage being too high rather than anything to do with Necros (especially if the OP is toughness stacking).

Lucubration.8361:

BaconSoda.3976:

The Thief can realistically only do this two, three, or four times in a short period as Cloak and Dagger has a 6 initiative cost while the utility skills have a pretty long cooldown.

10 points into Shadow Arts makes all stealth skills give you two initiative, so CnD costs a net 4 initiative.
15 points into Trickery increases the initiative cap by 3.
20 points into Shadow Arts increases the initiative regen by 1/3 seconds while in stealth.
20 points into Acrobatics increases initiative regen by 2/10 seconds.
20 points into Critical Strikes grants 2 initiative on signet use.
‘Roll for Initiative’ grants 6 initiative on use.
’Infiltrator’s Signet’ increases initiative regen by 1/10 seconds.

….

Holy Heck!

Look at that screenshot! Look at the Thief hitting 4k damage on Steal! That must be a trait that gives the class ability, Steal, a damage component!

If only Necro’s had something like that! Wait we do! We have a trait that gives the DS fear a damage component!

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Terror

Oh, it hits for only a couple of hundred damage at level 80? Really?

Anyway, moving on!

Look at those traits! Look at those major trait slot selections!

Look at how they are worthwhile choices! They give a relevant and useful bonus to a particular skill or class of skills!

Look at how they are related to a particular play style! They are all bonuses to a player wanting to use a lot of stealth and high initiative cost skills to support using stealth and burst damage!

It’s like a Thief can decide how he wants to build his character, and then is able to make logical choices with skill and trait selection, backed up by some synergistic utility skills, and just build his character like that.

The OP was saying that the Thief’s Burst damage from stealth was what was wrong with WvW.

Incorrect.

What is wrong, from a Necro’s point of view, is that the person who is playing that Thief has the ability to build an effective character build.

And not only build an effective character, but build an effective character to play in the way he or she wants to play.

Out of all the classes, the trait selection that a Necro has is possibly the farthest thing from synergistic or worthwhile.

And that is what is wrong with the Necromancer class. For reference see the bug post stickied on this forum.

FIVE whole posts with different bugs.

I run around with 1600 condition damage on my build in WvW often it feels like the enemy hp bar doesnt even move if I stack everything on him…

I rerolled a guardian and the damage wasnt any better… but then I hit level 2 and unlocked 1-5

Stop playing with conditions. GT wells with a power build is where it’s at in WvW.

Grab the karma and invader gear from WvW (power, toughness, vitality) add a power + precision rune set (I went with “of the pack”) and run GT wells and you’ll have tons of fun and will be impossible to insta-gib. The only thing that can really kill a necro easily is warrior or thief burst specs. If you survive the burst you’ll beat them 100% of the time.

I have to agree with Karandor. Running condition necro in WvW is terribad. I’m not going to say you are going to survive or beat a thief burst spec 100% but at least you won’t feel totally useless.

All I am seeing here is a very good, well specced burst thief that got everything he wanted on christmas morning. Long and short, he played his spec perfectly and you got wrecked. I’m fairly sure if you caught the thief with pants down and set up wells, and vulnerabilities, and got your might rolling you would be able to take him. Its all about playing to your strengths. You just played into his.

Stop playing a condition spec in WvW basicaly means stop playing the class like I want because 90% of its builds are garbage.

Shadestrike.4372:

My build is 20/30/0/20/0 I own everything.

Doesn’t say much. What traits did you choose? What weapon and skills do you use?

Condition spec is great for a necro running with a group. If you are concerned with 1v1’s in WvW then a power/DS build will help you win those, but if you are playing WvW for the 1v1’s you might as well be playing spvp.

I rock a full condition spec and focus on epidemic. I’m an asset to my team and I debilitate entire groups of enemies. Mark a target call it to your party and have them dot it up while you open with your mark rotation, switch to scepter, drop blood is power & spread the plague with epidemic. Their entire team will then be pressured with 25 stacks of bleed (if you have someone helping you stack) & every other condition your allies afflict. Epidemic has no tells. There is no AOE circle. There is no indication that everyone within a 1200 range of your carrier target is about to get condition stacked. Maybe you didn’t melt one foe with burst, but you did take about 50% of everyone’s life bar and put the entire enemy force on their heels. It’s also incredibly effective when taking supply camps or dealing with guard NPC packs.

TLDR Condition spec is fine in WvW. I honestly want to switch to a power build as I close in on the last 20 levels to speed up my PVE experience and vary my playstyle a bit, but I feel the way I play my necro is just too valuable to the group I run with in WvW.

Carrion Gear allows you to have a full condition build while still maintaining a good amount of power and HP. You won’t get a ton of crit, but you can mix in some pre/pow/cond gear as well to balance that out as your prefer.

I’m about 75%-25% Carrion, and WoC and Marks hit pretty well.

Epidemic is arguably the most powerful WvWvW skill in the game. If a build that can use epidemic effectively could also effectively tank stuff 1v1 there wouldn’t be any point to being anything besides epidemic condition build. It is startlingly powerful. As someone else said, unlike almost all other AOEs there is no warning or realistic way to avoid it.

As a condition necro find someone else who stacks condition, preferably someone who can put on conditions you can’t, and the two of you can wreck whole zergs on your own. There’s nothing quite like putting 20+ stacks of bleed, poison, cripple and burn/confusion on 20+ enemies at once and watching them all panic as the entire group gets eaten down to about 20% in about 10 seconds.

An engi or ele or mesmer partner is great for this. Engi pistol has aoe bleed auto attack plus confusion and poison which can all be talented to 1200 range. With an engi partner you really only need about 3-4 seconds of setup to get your epidemic going. Seeing as the average reaction time for players is 2ish seconds that means you’re really only eating a second or two of ranged damage before your epidemic goes off, at which point you can get out of dodge while it does its work and then repeat if necessary.

Condition Necros are no bueno for WvW unless some traits get fixed and wells last longer.

My philosophy is that death shroud is half of the class, and since Life Blast is power based, power is the way to go. Power also makes your Lich Form quite a beast (2-3k auto attacks).

I have to agree with what is being said here. If you are a Necro in WvWvW and are located in the frontline of the battlefield, you are doing something TERRIBLY wrong.

Necros are ment to be like the archers in a war, backline AoE killing machines. We are not cavalry.

Just stay back, target a foe with the most conds on him/her or (as stated above) talk to your team to focus on one foe and drop hell on that person, hit Epidemic and let the rest of your team finish the job.

We are not meant to be the actual killers, just letting the Finish Him! banner above everyone’s head so your team does the Fatalities (MK anyone? XD).

Just think about this. As long as you hit a foe a couple of times, no matter WHO kills him/her, you still get the rewards. So why moaning about being killed by 1 when you can demolish many?

post your build. i can tell from the screen that your skill choices are pretty pretty suboptimal.

I prefer to use DS to rain 3200 crits on downed opponents when the damage is to heavy to get into melee for the finish.

Anyone else notice how effective Lifeblast is against downed targets?

Kisses: for you to say don’t give you advice when you came to a public forum to complain is a bit… weird. People discussing things here are not trying to be rude, so you taking offense is no ones fault but your own…

Lich Form. This is what make the necros stand a chance in WvW. I have mainly went down the health and power lines to try and improve my healing (in fact, half of the traits I went for are apparently bugged according to the sticky). I definitely see that the necro lacks in PvE. I get one shot all the time, and I am not a glass cannon. It is really annoying to be killing something by slowly chipping at its health, then another class comes by who is a lower level than I am and they 3 or 4 shot something… Makes me feel useless, even with condition damage.

However, there was a few times in WvW where I felt incredibly useful to my team. We once got flanked by a very large group of people while attacking a gate. Since I was in the back using my staff, I was one of their first targets. However, I just turned around and ran, which ended up making nearly EVERYONE chase me, and making it so most of my team get away. Using lich form (actually downed someone), then death shroud almost right after, then the rest of my health ended up making me survive for over a minute against 10 people. I would probably blame this more on them sucking, as we were mainly out gunned, but kept being able to push them back to their gate.

That said, the necro needs to be fixed. And Anet seems to not even put a single update out about necros (seriously, look at the updates). This really sucks, so I feel your pain. I am stubborn as all hell though, and would rather quit playing than reroll a different character because my first choice was a bad one… I just really hope the lack of necro fixes means they are working towards a big fix, but I have a sneaking suspicion that they will not do any balance fixes for… a very long time…

Kisses.1054:

3. No kitten I can do stuff like dodge or DS if I am fortunate enough to have lifeforce built up. IN this situation I actually had full life force & endurance, but I died before I could react since I wasn’t really expecting it. The issue is, I shouldn’t have to worry about dying near instantly like this. Additionally even if I had survived the first hit, what am I going to do afterwards? Fairly stacked odds there.

Please don’t give me advice like that; it’s patronising and offensive.

You must not have played GW1. I could run an Assassin build that would instantly shadowstep to you, keep you knocked down on the ground, when you got up you were dazed so you wouldn’t be able to cast spells as well as blinded, so basically I could kill any squishy in around 5 or 6 seconds.

With another slightly tankier build (had some defensive skills mixed in), I could kill people in around 8 seconds while taking very little damage. People always made fun of Assassins like this because they were so easy to face if you knew how. After they first hit you, just kite them, cripple them, roll away, chill, death shroud for fear.

You have so many ways to keep them out of melee range unless they have multiple gap closers, they shouldn’t be able to touch you. Maybe even go as far as grabbing a warhorn for an offhand if you are getting destroyed that badly by them. When the thief shadowsteps to you, hit 4 then 5, he’s dazed and crippled giving you time to kite away from him, then scepter skill 2 for even longer cripple, when that cripple is starting to run out, just hit him with chilblains. Worst case scenerio, hes still up, hit him with a fear mark, swap to DS hit him with more fear.