Guild Wars 2

Currently on EU everyone runs shout warrior and dps guardian. Probably an average of 3 players per match is these classes.

These classes are legit hard counters to necro. Mesmers used to moan about thieves hard countering them but at least they COULD kill thieves. Currently a necromancer just does not have the conditions required to do ANYTHING in a team fight or 2v2 which features 2/3 shout warriors and dps guardians.

It is a simple mathmatical issue. If you play condi necro your conditions are not sufficient to kill the amount of AoE condition cleanse in the game.

Throw in the fact that since the nerf to life for stacking we are super weak at the start of the game, and the fact that dps guardians counter necromancers hard too (again with aoe cleanses and blinds/blocks) and I just can’t bring myself to play necromancer anymore. It is just boring.

Even thief is a serious issue for a necro. A d/p thief should own a necro all game as they have the ability to just interrupt your heal on repeat with an instant cast, ranged interrupt which is spammable. Together with our obvious casting animation on the heal, the long cast time and the lack of mobility/stability/blocks we have = we are so vulnerable to thieves. Not to mention that immobilise is really bad for necros and they have that all the time too. In addition the thieves steal skill from necromancer is a fear of such a stupid length. Again causing issues.

Another problem with necromancer is the total lack of sustain we have. Obviously this is way way worse since the life force patch where they massively nerfed us. Not being able to stack life force at the start of the game was really a total joke. Now we start the game with basically zero life force and no flesh wurm.

Without flesh wurm the necromancer is a sitting duck. The more they have buffed damage in the game (sigil procs mainly) the more dodging, blocking, blinding, invulnerablitiy has been buffed. We have none of this. Every other class has abundant amounts of prot/dodges/blocks/blinds etc. We have none. We just have a health pool. The problem is that this WAS balanced when there was less damage. However now there is so much damage a necromancers health is just not as good as it was. Not to mention that no life force at the start = sitting duck as the only way to survive is really to use death shroud and fear people off you.

Necromancer, imo, is only semi-good in a meta full of eles and engis. Once you get thieves, shout warriors, mesmers, rangers, dps guardians then necromancer is the worst class in the game by far. Necro also feeels strong in a really dominant team and vs bad players. It has always killed bad players. This is because it can snowball to the point where we have 40k hp.

I have played necro for 2 years. Condi necro. Regardless of other people’s opinions of my play (might not be the best anymore) the facts are that as an active player on solo queue I spent about 3-4 months on top of the solo queue leaderboards in the top 20 or so with 3 accounts, all of which has very very high win percentages originally (before I quit for the first time). I also ended up as the final rank 1 of the solo queue leaderboards with a very high win percentage. Those are just facts which remove any bias of people who might say I need to “l2p”. Everyone overrates themselves and underrates other people but I have proven my individual skill with factual performance.

So I know what I am talking about. And to me, necromancer has never EVER been harder to play. There is too many hard counters out there. And every other class has made use of sigils/runes and all the buffs much better than us.

I dont think there is a solution out there. I don’t think necromancer will ever be good in this game.

Thoughts?

Errr, I played solo queue for quite a while before the dhuumfire patch as a terror necro build with soul marks, off hand warhorn+banshees veil and a stun sigil which boosted both the daze and fear duration at that time. I went up to something like 400+ on the leaderboards as a solo terrormancer and the build actually felt powerful and effective. Then the dhuumfire patch happened which was totaly whack a mole for unknown reasons. I played a tiny bit after it went live and stopped.

I came back to the game a few weeks ago and each time I try going terrormancer I get disscouraged since it seems like I cannot stack any condies to pose a threat and I am forced to play power instead. Also the funny thing is that the terror build I had previous to the dhuumfire patch felt way more poweful compared to what I have now:

-Mark of blood – 2 bleeds instead of 3
-Putrid mark – Only 3 condies transfered form yourself compared to a full cleanse for yourself and your teammates that we had, a joke tbh
-Terror going from tier 1 trait to tier 2 which completley destroyed my terror + banshees veil that I liked so much, really wish banshees veil was a tier 1 trait now.
-Greater marks going to tier 2 trait from tier 1 as well, ugh

We got a lot of new offensive things for no reason so they would get nerfed afterwards and also make the old stuff we had get nerfed, bleh.

I might not be THAT good, but I’d like to think of myself of being at least decently average and I agree with you here. I’ve also made and posted a few comic strips back in the day, wish I could attach all of them to one post, lol.

So far, what I see in sPVP after not playign for a year or 2 after the dhummfire patch is that the same necro problems remain and now I feel forced to play power.

I think the issue is 2 fold, one condis were so prevalent for so long that a large number of more meta builds can deal with condis pretty well. And two Iceflame not being around for or aware of the hatchet job condi necro had done to it to try and fix dhuumfire.

I don’t play condi necro at all but I do know my guildie Xara (who I would say is the best wvw condi necro player t1 probably na) wont bother to take condi necro in spvp cause the damage is sooo bad compared to what he can dish out in wvw.

Additionally while it may be true that condi necro has a hard time in spvp, necro as a class is far from hard countered. Zerker necro is very strong in spvp if you can adopt the right play style. For example most theifs have this idea that if they see a necro its a free kill and they can just go melee ham on your face, however 2 wells and life transfer turns them into a quivering pile of goo!

PS I’m not trying to brag on my guildie, the guy has an ego a mile wide I would love to see another condi necro kick him in the kittens!

I wish they would revert the bleed nerfs to scepter 2 and staff 2…

“I feel forced to play power”

I feel exactly the same way. When i started playing gw2 i asked people about “whats the best dot class”, cause ive always loved dots. Everybody agreed about Necro so without further ado i rolled Necro.
I only play unranked with a couple of friends, but im having a hard time killing stuff with conditions. Its hard to stack them quickly and once its done they get cleansed and my stuff is on cooldown. Sure the scepter stacks decent, but when you get hit for several thousand damage its hard to keep up. Thats ofcourse when im not getting ping-ponged
Im my Terror-build i do have a decent amount of CC and i help my team, but i feel that people simply ignore my damage or lack of it.
So for now, i switched back to a powerbuild and yes, im having tons of fun playing it. Although it might be sort of a one-trick-pony build, i really feel i contribute alot more to the team, than by throwing around a couple of condis. After all, i still got acces to 2x Fear (staff/DS) so its not that im only DPSing.
Im trying to farm for ascended amor and Im still planing on a condi build (rapid/dire), i do however hope, that we get a condi boost of some sort. Ive played around 1500 matches so im not “all that” and therefor its hard to say whats needed to get me back into my beloved condi build

Muchacho.2390:

I wish they would revert the bleed nerfs to scepter 2 and staff 2…

I think the sustain issue is the main problem though. I dont mind not being able to kill stuff really fast. I am happy for condis to just apply constant pressure as condi necro does currently.

The patch stopping life force stacking before the game really was huge for necros in pvp. It was a huge nerf. Not sure how to fix necromancer but I think a good start would be to let necros start with a base 30% life force everytime they spawn in pvp. Or at the very least give them 30% before the match starts. Then obviously the defensive trait line, blood magic, needs a complete overhaul to make it useful.

Lastly there needs to be a 5 point minor trait giving near perma vigor like on most other classes.

As I have said before in other threads.

The main problem with necro is death shroud.

Every other class that has damage reduction mechanics has mechanics that reduce damage consistently no matter how many enemies your fighting.
They are consistent because they reduce damage based on a set %.

Death shroud on the other hand is something that must be built up over time via life force, degrades naturally over time while in death shroud & degrades as you take damage while in death shroud.

This makes death shroud extremely powerful when you start a fight with life force maxed out.
It gets progressively worse however with each additional enemy your fighting however due to the fact you take more & more damage.

The best solution would be to redesign death shroud (keep skills as is) so that it only degrades life force over time (not from damage) then make it simply reduce all damage taken by a set % instead of acting like a second life bar.

After that they can allow for some, possibly allot of things to heal through death shroud at a %.

Short of this however a simple “fix” would be to have the necromancer spawn with a set % of their life force bar full (say 30-40%)

Ragnar the Rock.3174:

As I have said before in other threads.

The main problem with necro is death shroud.

Every other class that has damage reduction mechanics has mechanics that reduce damage consistently no matter how many enemies your fighting.
They are consistent because they reduce damage based on a set %.

Death shroud on the other hand is something that must be built up over time via life force, degrades naturally over time while in death shroud & degrades as you take damage while in death shroud.

This makes death shroud extremely powerful when you start a fight with life force maxed out.
It gets progressively worse however with each additional enemy your fighting however due to the fact you take more & more damage.

The best solution would be to redesign death shroud (keep skills as is) so that it only degrades life force over time (not from damage) then make it simply reduce all damage taken by a set % instead of acting like a second life bar.

After that they can allow for some, possibly allot of things to heal through death shroud at a %.

The thing is death shroud used to be fine before all the sigils and massive damage in the game.

Now with all the sigils and massive damage on auto attacks/weapon swaps it makes a mechanic which just ABSORBS damage worse. And makes things like blocks much better.

I like how every thread like this someone comes along and says deathshroud is the problem…… ok….. so… the class mechanic is the problem…..

THEY AREN’T GETTING RID OF DEATHSHROUD so stop saying it’s the problem…. don’t be so narrow minded. There are other ways.

DS is not the problem ladies and gentlemen.

Death Shroud was never really “fine.” Sufficient, perhaps, but not “fine.”

NeXeD.3042:

I like how every thread like this someone comes along and says deathshroud is the problem…… ok….. so… the class mechanic is the problem…..

THEY AREN’T GETTING RID OF DEATHSHROUD so stop saying it’s the problem…. don’t be so narrow minded. There are other ways.

DS is not the problem ladies and gentlemen.

Pretty sure I pointed out the flaw with the death shroud life force mechanic & absorbing damage instead of reducing it by a set %.

If you have a different view point that is your right, but I’d love to see what you think the problem is.

Ragnar the Rock.3174:

NeXeD.3042:

I like how every thread like this someone comes along and says deathshroud is the problem…… ok….. so… the class mechanic is the problem…..

THEY AREN’T GETTING RID OF DEATHSHROUD so stop saying it’s the problem…. don’t be so narrow minded. There are other ways.

DS is not the problem ladies and gentlemen.

Pretty sure I pointed out the flaw with the death shroud life force mechanic & absorbing damage instead of reducing it by a set %.

If you have a different view point that is your right, but I’d love to see what you think the problem is.

Well its not the class mechanic…… you can say it’s a problem all you want but they aren’t getting rid of DS.

Well for me the problem is our inability to deal with hard CC which our high health pool is supposed to help mitigate…. I would be xtremely happy with more access to stab or some sort of block/reflect. For better or worse it looks like something is going to change with it.

I feel there are ways to make the current Necro model work as legit defense, but it involves much more focus on AoE. The Locust skills are great examples as to how to make it work, but I would argue only Locust Swarm is right where it needs to be. Signet of the Locust needs the base heal upped a bit (not much) or the cooldown shaved again, but it is really close to being good right now.

The problem is, those are the only two skills Necros have that scale sustain to incoming damage. We rather need more.

That’s a big one for wvw but not really a problem in pve or pvp. I still think sol is doo doo.

The only reason Death Shroud is ‘flawed’ is because it’s not good enough to account for the absence of mobility, evades, dodges, and stability. They just need to give the class access to these things. It doesn’t need a lot.

The other problems with the class are the same ones with PvE. The damage isn’t competetive with the other classes and the class is devoid of valuable utility skills.

Being a pinball to a turret engi while a dps guard wrecked me was fun today.

spoj.9672:

Being a pinball to a turret engi while a dps guard wrecked me was fun today.

For the world cup, all asuraballs are made out of necromancers.

Lordrosicky.5813:

The thing is death shroud used to be fine before all the sigils and massive damage in the game.

Now with all the sigils and massive damage on auto attacks/weapon swaps it makes a mechanic which just ABSORBS damage worse. And makes things like blocks much better.

I don’t think it went downhill from there. The problems you’re describing existed even at the hight of necromancer dhuum-cheeser times. And the sigil patches also affected necros in a positiv way.

Lordrosicky.5813:

Currently on EU everyone runs shout warrior and dps guardian.

Personally I’m glad about this meta shift. I had a much harder time against hambows before the adrenalin nerf. And so far I’ve yet to see a dps guard beat me in a straight up duel. Then again, I don’t play the condi meta build.

But overall I agree with your assessment. The damage vs tankyness vs CC-output ratio of some classes makes it extremely hard to justify having a necro on your team.
And that’s not because I think necros are generally weaker, but other classes have so much more room for error. Sometimes you have to play absulutely flawless while other classes can make mistake after mistake and still hold on to their life. Once you are downed you can bet your sorry butt that you’ll be stability-stomped a second later. On the other hand, if you try to secure a stomp and even sacrifice your elite for it, you’ll be lucky to pull it off before 10 rez banners land on your head.

NeXeD.3042:

I like how every thread like this someone comes along and says deathshroud is the problem…… ok….. so… the class mechanic is the problem…..

THEY AREN’T GETTING RID OF DEATHSHROUD so stop saying it’s the problem…. don’t be so narrow minded. There are other ways.

DS is not the problem ladies and gentlemen.

Actually… with the Specialization hitting, we just might see them getting rid of DS. Or add a second Life-Force using mechanic, like changing Necro-utilities to way lower CD’s but costing x% of Lifeforce. I’d actually LOVE that change (well as long as that meant Necros spawn with x% of Life-Force)…Imagine being able to cast wells on a 10 second cd… cloud seven. Or…maybe change it so Deathshroud (or utilities) cost health when Life-Force is at 0.

I think you have l2n issues OP
Here are some tips:
• Go to 1v1 / 2v2 servers and learn animations,rotations,……..
• Find experienced players and ask them what to dodge and what to interrupt and what to tank
• Watch Nos’ stream all the time
• Rotation is the key in all matches, with flesh wurm you can easily guard home while you’re on mid helping aswell (a decap isn’t as bad as a fullcap)
• Evade 1v1’s against Shoutbows/D&D cele eles unless you are decent/actually good at duelling and know what and how.
• Run double stunbreaker and catch people off guard to turn over fights
• Evade groupfights (2v2/3v3+ depending on skill level unless you can freecast at sides)
• Stop complaining on forums and play the game already + if you’re really unhappy about necro, stop playing it and go to something else that gives you more opportunities.

Gl hf

I’didn’t looked at all the answers but yesterday was warrior/guardian daily. It doesn’t really surprise me that you encountered a lot of them.

I would also like to react on this false assumption that necromancer don’t have competitive damage. This is wrong!
Necro have good damage and can stack multiple sources of damage. Damage were never why necro are in a bad spot in PvE. This is a false assumption that people need to sort out of their head. Use dagger/wh (auto attack and locust swarm) add all minion (for example and you out damage almost every classes). The fact is that it’s a bad setup for group play. Necro lack the ability to be group friendly, Necro is stuck with really bad support ability that are out of place in the game in it’s actual form but by no mean they lack damage.

Lordrosicky.5813:

Those are just facts which remove any bias of people who might say I need to “l2p”.

Falcon.8713:

I think you have l2n issues OP
Here are some tips:

lol

Well this is why everyone says Necros are good “If they watch their positioning.” Necros are still strong in the right situations, but those situations are not always super common, and it’s not as if we can really escape a bad one.

I find that playing necro well almost depends on the team being strong. I can bring a lot of damage and control and annoyance to an enemy team, but if everyone isn’t pulling their weight, if there is more skill on the other team, it won’t matter at all because Necro is focused so much. I know that this statement applies to almost any class, but it feels especially so with necromancer, as if smaller differences are more pronounced.

It can definitely be frustrating. But necro seems really strong in Deathmatch, and I’m confident that Stronghold will be good for us too.

Necromancer started as something like a debuffing light spell-caster but has consistently been pushed toward a front-line tanking job. That, I think, is where a lot of the professions problems originated from. Trying to use Necromancer as a mage just does not work. Necro has difficulty exerting power at range and evading attacks.

GW2 will be getting a third heavy armor profession, Revenant, but I would argue Necromancer has been filling that role for a while. There is no other profession that seems to absorb damage like Necromancer.

I keep wondering how Arenanet will balance the game with Revenant populating the same role while Necromancer gets a greatsword to use probably like a giant dagger (power weapon with cleave.) Although, I do hope it functions differently. The profession does not need two main-hand daggers, unless the entire point is to swap between them for reduced cool down.

The only updates to Necromancer that come to mind supporting the light-armored Scholar theme are changes to Greater Marks and making fear count as an interrupt but even that is dodgy. Minions are just tanking and dps tools. The same is true for Death Shroud and spectral skills. Wells can go both ways but really only the WvW zerg build with Focused Rituals favors light armor. Staff’s Marks and the Corruption traits do support a light armor spell-caster profession but both are more like utilities for power Necro’s.

It feels like most of the balance updates have focused on bringing Necromancer closer to a tank role designed to draw aggro and survive it, kind of like a Bad Paladin.

Roe.3679:

I find that playing necro well almost depends on the team being strong. I can bring a lot of damage and control and annoyance to an enemy team, but if everyone isn’t pulling their weight, if there is more skill on the other team, it won’t matter at all because Necro is focused so much. I know that this statement applies to almost any class, but it feels especially so with necromancer, as if smaller differences are more pronounced.

Very true.

flow.6043:

Lordrosicky.5813:

Those are just facts which remove any bias of people who might say I need to “l2p”.

Falcon.8713:

I think you have l2n issues OP
Here are some tips:

lol

Oops :/

Even in WvW, condi necro gets passed by condi trap ranger.
They have stealth, mobility, all damaging condi’s exept (fear) depending on sigil/pet choices and also tons of evades.
Only down side is mediocre condi clear (only empathetic bond) and stun breaks (if you run triple trap.

Necro isn’t in the best place atm, but if I can make it work why can’t you?

Falcon.8713:

D&D cele eles unless you are decent/actually good at duelling and know what and how.

Gl hf

Dude, cele D/D ele’s should avoid YOU as the condi/power necro. Corrupt dem boonz

If we r talking a out equal skill players, dd cele ele will win vs condi necro.
Having 1 skill on a 40 sec cd doesnt do anything at all vs them, the necro would have to spec with cb+ woc+poc + 4 points in spite for spinal shivers and even so i dont know if the necro would win.
Dd cele eles can stack too many boons way to fast , by the time you corrupt their boons they crap a few more nps.
The only players necro hard counter is engies but eles they dont. Its just an ilusion thinking a condi necro would hard counter cele dd eles, again im talking equal skill players.

Holl.3109:

Even in WvW, condi necro gets passed by condi trap ranger.
They have stealth, mobility, all damaging condi’s exept (fear) depending on sigil/pet choices and also tons of evades.
Only down side is mediocre condi clear (only empathetic bond) and stun breaks (if you run triple trap.

Necro isn’t in the best place atm, but if I can make it work why can’t you?

I agree with Hol. I was honestly surprised at how poorly a condi necro really is. They don’t stack condis that quickly, have poor coverage, and a lot of the condi application that isn’t from auto spam has long cast times with prohibitive cooldowns. The ironic thing is that the Necro actually beats most other condi builds its faced against because of the condi transfer and buffer from death shroud.

I really wish things like epidemic were stronger. Like it would spread all condis to other targets but also double the condis on the current target.

A condition cleansing shout warrior does hardcounter a condition necromancer.

Their three shouts remove conditions, they have a fourth “free” shout from traits, their longbow fire field removes conditions, and their healing signet out heals your DPS.

Thieves hard counter power / berzerker necromancers.

Guardians are very difficult, and those pew pew rangers hard counter necromancers.

It is a bad time to play necromancer.

Necromancers need some of z-axis port, reflects, dodges… Because death shroud doesn’t cut it.

PS. I am not sure that condition necromancers are good at conditions. Other classes stack conditions much faster than necromancer. Necromancer’s advantage over condition classes used to be mass condition transfers, but these days you need all of your cleanses to counter immobilize spam. Necromancers aren’t so great a conditions these days and don’t hard counter other onditions classes anymore.

Prince Vingador.8067:

If we r talking a out equal skill players, dd cele ele will win vs condi necro.
Having 1 skill on a 40 sec cd doesnt do anything at all vs them, the necro would have to spec with cb+ woc+poc + 4 points in spite for spinal shivers and even so i dont know if the necro would win.
Dd cele eles can stack too many boons way to fast , by the time you corrupt their boons they crap a few more nps.
The only players necro hard counter is engies but eles they dont. Its just an ilusion thinking a condi necro would hard counter cele dd eles, again im talking equal skill players.

I would say 1v1 you have 50% chance of winning if you dont do any mistake or get screwed by any wild blind, dodge or evade. (assuming ele doesnt want to disengage when almost dead) Staff ele on the other side …. no way killing that.

Also 1v1 i think condi necro beats shout war but as long as they run away/hide you will not be able to fnish them, only if they decide to stay on point/close to the point till the end.

And i also have harder time vs dps guard as condi necro. Mostly because our slow attack speed (hard to remove blind) and bad autoattacks, while guard autoattack can do so much dmg (combined with sigils) and he can block/blind every our important spell, same as pistol offhand thieves. Its much easier when i play power necro tho.

Also i cant understand how ppl can say necro hardcounters engis. The best condi engis can give you realy tough fight if they can interupt your heal, dodge properly and dont get hit by condi transfers. If the condi engi cant do that, than yes we hardcounter them. Its disadvantageous fight but not hardcounter. Cele meta engi can prety easily kill necro on the other hand.

Jsut my thinking.

You guys still play necro!?

I stopped torturing myself honestly every other class is easier right now – When I play shoutbow I have no idea what conditions are they fly off so fast

Necro hasn’t caught up with all the buffs the other classes have been getting

Dhuumfire really killed the class and it hasn’t recovered from all the nerfs

Emapudapus.1307:

Prince Vingador.8067:

If we r talking a out equal skill players, dd cele ele will win vs condi necro.
Having 1 skill on a 40 sec cd doesnt do anything at all vs them, the necro would have to spec with cb+ woc+poc + 4 points in spite for spinal shivers and even so i dont know if the necro would win.
Dd cele eles can stack too many boons way to fast , by the time you corrupt their boons they crap a few more nps.
The only players necro hard counter is engies but eles they dont. Its just an ilusion thinking a condi necro would hard counter cele dd eles, again im talking equal skill players.

I would say 1v1 you have 50% chance of winning if you dont do any mistake or get screwed by any wild blind, dodge or evade. (assuming ele doesnt want to disengage when almost dead) Staff ele on the other side …. no way killing that.

Also 1v1 i think condi necro beats shout war but as long as they run away/hide you will not be able to fnish them, only if they decide to stay on point/close to the point till the end.

And i also have harder time vs dps guard as condi necro. Mostly because our slow attack speed (hard to remove blind) and bad autoattacks, while guard autoattack can do so much dmg (combined with sigils) and he can block/blind every our important spell, same as pistol offhand thieves. Its much easier when i play power necro tho.

Also i cant understand how ppl can say necro hardcounters engis. The best condi engis can give you realy tough fight if they can interupt your heal, dodge properly and dont get hit by condi transfers. If the condi engi cant do that, than yes we hardcounter them. Its disadvantageous fight but not hardcounter. Cele meta engi can prety easily kill necro on the other hand.

Jsut my thinking.

Good post.

Also not all fights are 1v1. The best a necro can hope for is 1v1 imo. Otherwise in 2v2 and 3v3 if you are vs 2 dps guard and shout warrior…..honestly as a necro you might as well not be in that fight. The AoE cleanse is so high that they all cure each others condis and nothing you put on will stick. It really does suck!

Engis have much more conditions and a wider variety of conditions so they have much more chace.

Narkodx.1472:

You guys still play necro!?

I stopped torturing myself honestly every other class is easier right now – When I play shoutbow I have no idea what conditions are they fly off so fast

Necro hasn’t caught up with all the buffs the other classes have been getting

Dhuumfire really killed the class and it hasn’t recovered from all the nerfs

Some of us are looking for a challenge Easy stuff is boringggggggg
And also: most necro’s have already fallen in love with the class and can’t stop
If anet would have just put ‘only pick this class if you want to be kicked out of dungeons, have no mobility and be kittened by CC’ in the character creation screen, a lot of whining could have been prevented

Holl.3109:

Narkodx.1472:

You guys still play necro!?

I stopped torturing myself honestly every other class is easier right now – When I play shoutbow I have no idea what conditions are they fly off so fast

Necro hasn’t caught up with all the buffs the other classes have been getting

Dhuumfire really killed the class and it hasn’t recovered from all the nerfs

Some of us are looking for a challenge Easy stuff is boringggggggg
And also: most necro’s have already fallen in love with the class and can’t stop
If anet would have just put ‘only pick this class if you want to be kicked out of dungeons, have no mobility and be kittened by CC’ in the character creation screen, a lot of whining could have been prevented

Or, you know, A-net could have done a better job of – actually making each class viable gasp!. That would have prevented the whining, too. 2.5 years of it, actually.

Shiki.7148:

Holl.3109:

Narkodx.1472:

You guys still play necro!?

I stopped torturing myself honestly every other class is easier right now – When I play shoutbow I have no idea what conditions are they fly off so fast

Necro hasn’t caught up with all the buffs the other classes have been getting

Dhuumfire really killed the class and it hasn’t recovered from all the nerfs

Some of us are looking for a challenge Easy stuff is boringggggggg
And also: most necro’s have already fallen in love with the class and can’t stop
If anet would have just put ‘only pick this class if you want to be kicked out of dungeons, have no mobility and be kittened by CC’ in the character creation screen, a lot of whining could have been prevented

Or, you know, A-net could have done a better job of – actually making each class viable gasp!. That would have prevented the whining, too. 2.5 years of it, actually.

Another viable option :P

While I feel your pain, as I main Mes and Necro, I think it is safe to say mesmers have it just as bad as you guys right now

Warlord of Chaos.7845:

While I feel your pain, as I main Mes and Necro, I think it is safe to say mesmers have it just as bad as you guys right now

I dunno, you guys actually have utility for your team. The problem with mesmers is often simply that thieves exist (ectoplasm is the stupidest buff ever). Overall though, mesmers, necros, and rangers (not the longbow kind) all could use some buffs.

zapv.8051:

Warlord of Chaos.7845:

While I feel your pain, as I main Mes and Necro, I think it is safe to say mesmers have it just as bad as you guys right now

I dunno, you guys actually have utility for your team. The problem with mesmers is often simply that thieves exist (ectoplasm is the stupidest buff ever). Overall though, mesmers, necros, and rangers (not the longbow kind) all could use some buffs.

Necros can put a lot of pressure on boon heavy classes though. We have a niche reason to be brought as well.

The thing thing that always sticks out to me the most about Necro and mesmer is that both classes have super easy to interrupt heals. The classes most in the meta right now all have heals with no cast, or protected heals, or heals so fast you couldn’t interrupt them on purpose in any reliable way. Personally I wish that would change.

Warlord of Chaos.7845:

While I feel your pain, as I main Mes and Necro, I think it is safe to say mesmers have it just as bad as you guys right now

I’d say this comparison is spot on. I also used to main necro (at some point), then switched over to mesmer (oh, the irony…)

The thing is with these 2 classes, that you need your team to build around them. Both can be strong with a proper setup and more importantly with proper communication. Something, you don’t really get in solo q’s.
You can use portals, but I can almost guarantee you that none will really take them effectively/will get the idea behind them.

These 2 classes also need to be nursed quite often by your teammates – you need constant peels if the enemy team decides to focus on you (which happens quite often as otherwise freecasting you could do havoc). Again, something that you won’t see regularly in yoloq.

The 2 class share also some similarities as in both require top notch gameplay to be effective. Anything less and you will be a downside to your team.

I’d say mesmer is still in a better position, as we have at least stealth (could have 3 of them in certain setups) on our side, while the necro’s only chance is Wurm, really, on a quite long cd. Essentially no chance to drop target/disengage from an unfavourable matchup, which hinders the option to rotate on/off from a point quite heavily.

I agree with most of what the OP has said. I still feel reasonably powerful in an organised team, but much, much weaker when I’m playing with pugs, ever since the nerf to starting life force and the change to DS recharge times (used to let it run down, pop SWalk, and jump back into it 3" later). It’s not just the nerfs, like the OP said, it’s the metagame changes too: teams are packing too much aoe condition removal, and in team fights our application can’t keep up.

It’s more than that though: soft CC like chill, cripple, and weakness has been highly devalued, in favour of hard CC like stuns and immobilises (and fears, we’re part of the problem there). These conditions have received further nerfs lately, while skills that remove them have become more common in the metagame. There are too many skills that remove chill and cripple in the current metagame (warrior’s warhorn, thief’s withdraw, engi’s overcharged shot etc.), in addition to the already substantial aoe condi removal around, so they never stay on people for very long. Not to mention that teleports and shadowsteps completely ignore snares anyway. As for Weakness, its duration has been nerfed badly across the board (not just for necros), and blind has always been kinda useless except for securing stomps, as the downed body’s interrupts are the only skills in the game that are predictable enough and have long enough cast times to reliably blind without causing an autoattack to miss instead.

These conditions used to be the bread and butter of the necromancer: except for during the Dhuumfire months, we were never a condition burst class. We were the class that debuffed their enemy so we could survive their damage until they were dead. The class that didn’t beat you, but just lost slower than you. That playstyle is pretty much impossible with the nerfs to weakness and snares. Not that it was ever great in Conquest, because it took too long to kill someone, and while that wasn’t a problem if you were holding a point, it made you terrible at decapping compared to someone who could either kill faster or knock the defender off the point (so pretty much everyone), but it was viable at least. Now it’s downright terrible.

ANet need to go one of two ways with the necro: either they increase the number of conditions available to us so we become a condiburst class like rabid engis, or they unnerf some of the soft cc (and nerf some of the skills and mechanics that remove it) to make the debuff and attrition playstyle viable again. Preferably they’ll make both playstyles viable and give people the option to go one way or the other by picking appropriate traits, tbh.

To make debuffs meaningful again, they have to increase base durations on all soft CC (including from traits like Enfeebling Shroud, which I personally haven’t been running in months, and chilling darkness, which should give a 2" chill), and give us more frequent and reliable blind application (perhaps through an adept-level trait that blinds on fear?) Deathly Swarm has a fast cast time, but the projectile is too slow to reliably blind specific skills – we need a blind skill that’s fast enough that you can use it to blind skills with 1" or longer cast time at max range given a reaction time of 0.25" plus a bit of lag (so total activation time+projectile travel time if any under 0.5"). Withering Precision needs to be buffed, either by drastically cutting its ICD or, preferably, by reworking it in a way that carrion builds can also use it (eg apply 2" weakness when striking a poisoned foe, maybe?)

Additionally, necro needs the following general balance changes: Mark of Blood neeeds to go back to 3 bleeds, Grasping Dead has to be changed to apply torment rather than bleeding to give us more condition variety, staff traits need to be amalgamated into 2, and the 17% nerf to Terror damage that happened soon after Dhuumfire was introduced should be reversed.

Well said, Manveruppd.

Arenanet has consistently been balancing Necromancer toward a power tanking role but has left in all of the original by-design weaknesses of a condi-burst mage. This is what I find most ironic about Revenant: It is what Arenanet has been trying, and failing, to make Necromancer into.

There could be two professions with a large amount of overlap, except that I suspect Revenant will be worse at tanking than Necromancer and better at casting from mid or long range. Consider hammer’s AA and skills versus the same on Necro’s staff.

Worse than tanking than a necro with full life force, far better than a necro who starts the fight with empty life force. Especially with those Mallyx skills that have bonus effects with each condi on you!

I mean I know they nerfed weakness uptimes in general, but it feels like we got much harder hit than anyone else. Why does Enfeebling Blood inflict the same Weakness duration as warrior’s warhorn, even though that’s got 5" faster recharge and a much larger pbaoe range?

On Necros, the only Weakness uptime that got nerfed was Withering Precision and Weakening Shroud. Everything else remained the same.

But we do need better weakness uptime.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

On Necros, the only Weakness uptime that got nerfed was Withering Precision and Weakening Shroud. Everything else remained the same.

But we do need better weakness uptime.

And withering precision is certainly somethng that needs a buff. Currently it is not worth the grandmaster slot.

Muchacho.2390:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

On Necros, the only Weakness uptime that got nerfed was Withering Precision and Weakening Shroud. Everything else remained the same.

But we do need better weakness uptime.

And withering precision is certainly somethng that needs a buff. Currently it is not worth the grandmaster slot.

I’m not sure it’s worth an adept slot right now. It used to be great (25% chance on crit to cause 3 seconds of weakness, no ICD). Could we get the old version back? I’d even take 2 seconds of Weakness, so long as it was no ICD.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Muchacho.2390:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

On Necros, the only Weakness uptime that got nerfed was Withering Precision and Weakening Shroud. Everything else remained the same.

But we do need better weakness uptime.

And withering precision is certainly somethng that needs a buff. Currently it is not worth the grandmaster slot.

I’m not sure it’s worth an adept slot right now. It used to be great (25% chance on crit to cause 3 seconds of weakness, no ICD). Could we get the old version back? I’d even take 2 seconds of Weakness, so long as it was no ICD.

No disagreement here. I never understood why they changed it.

They changed it t about the same time that they nerfed some Vigor.

Of course, there wasn’t enough weakness at the time to counter vigor, and that is doubly true now.