Guild Wars 2

do we have a place anymore in PvP?

we don’t have to ask for greatsword now that dagger cleaves.

CratZ.6270:

do we have a place anymore in PvP?

You have both nightmare and reaper’s protection procs. The first time the Ranger tries to pinball you, he’s running in the wrong direction for 3 seconds.

I think realistically Necromancers are slightly better post patch. Nothing really changed on our side (although spectral builds are seeing a bit of play in yoloQ), but some annoying builds were nerfed.

Bhawb.7408:

You have both nightmare and reaper’s protection procs.

Imo Reaper’s Protection is a bad trait and no one should use it.
As to the fear proc of nightmare runes: the only reason they are being used over other condi runes is the 4th bonus.

Also, a fear proc with 1 hour cooldown is hardly a good counter measure to being pinballed.

Each proc is a 3.6s fear with traiting. That means up to 4 procs of terror damage, plus a lot of time for you to load them up with condis. And since you’re essentially guaranteed to get both procs within the first few times they hit you, if they stun break they are left with little else to stop a doom/corrupted stab fear chain. Even with the stun, by the time you are un-stunned they are still running into a corner somewhere halfway across the map.

Still bad.

You’re pretty much guaranteed to “use” the procs when you least need them. You give up a trait slot for either Greater Marks (which is a million times better) or a trait in a different line. And fear is counterable in so many ways.

It’s a weak 1v1 trait and it get’s even weaker in team fights.

Does RP even work against point blank shot? It does fear pbaoe 360 units, and point blank shot has a 1200 range when traited. (despite its name, ironically)

Oh and the fears are just 3" including Master of Terror.

The build is considered one of the strongest 1v1 specs in the game by many high level PvPers. It was basically the sole thing that kept us in the highest tier meta.

And yes, I was using the wrong condition duration, I was using a dhuum build which wouldn’t have those traits.

Bhawb.7408:

The build is considered one of the strongest 1v1 specs in the game by many high level PvPers.

I know there are some people who believe that, but they’re wrong.
That necro build is strong (-ish) for reasons other than those 2 fear procs, but it would be even better without Reaper’s Protection.

Bhawb.7408:

It was basically the sole thing that kept us in the highest tier meta.

Not in EU, and certainly not because of Reaper’s Protection.

moi.4398:

Greater mark is really usefull only on guard while RP will be ok against everything imo

More like the other way around.

The unblockable part of Greater Marks is good against anyone who uses blocks… so basically everyone except necros and thieves.
And then there’s the size: hugely underrated! It adds almost 80% extra surface area. It means higher range, more hits in team fights, better area control, bigger poison field and blast finisher area.

RP on the other hand doesn’t work against everyone at all. If your target happens to have stability or any other form of immunity against conditions it’s wasted. Also, you can’t control any part of it. You don’t know when it will trigger and when it’s off cd again. It will likely trigger when your target is out of reach and you can’t follow up with any pressure properly. The situations when this trait has a great impact on a fight are really very rare.

Bhawb.7408:

The build is considered one of the strongest 1v1 specs in the game by many high level PvPers. It was basically the sole thing that kept us in the highest tier meta.

And yes, I was using the wrong condition duration, I was using a dhuum build which wouldn’t have those traits.

Why would anyone use a condition build for the sole purpose to 1v1 in a gamemode all about rotation/teamfight/mobility?

I never played in US even though I’m Canadian so I mostly talk from a EU meta perspective, but really on both on my accounts, one for teamQ, and this one for testing/soloQ, I see far more condition necro using greater mark than reaper protection.

Being able to fear guardian heals, engi block, transfering 5 stacks of torment+~20 stacks of bleed against warrior sword #5, owning PU 1v1 just by using staff and many more are enough of a reason to use greater mark over reaper protection.

Plus, you already have rune of nightmarefear, so it just seems redundant to have a trait which pretty much do the same thing.

Yes, RP is great for when you get jumped, but think about why it’s great: because the professions who have the capacity to jump you, CC you, and burst you down DON’T HAVE ANY STABILITY. The advent of the celestial sustain meta since April has meant that, to overcome the endless healing of all the warriors, engis, and eles, bursty builds have had to go full-out burst, with no defensive utilities at all. They relied on sheer DPS burst as their only defence, killing the enemy or forcing them to run before they could counter them. The one exception was S/D thief, who, in addition to burst, had endless evades at their disposal. And since most CC by the warriors and engis was attacks, if they were evaded they wouldn’t connect, so, again, they didn’t need stability.

OK, so here’s my theory about the pre-patch meta: if sustain was rock and burst was paper, the necro definitely fit the role of scissors: then full-out burst builds designed to counter the tough warriors just weren’t equipped to deal with RP, as it triggers passively, can’t be evaded, can’t be dodged, and can’t be blocked. No Mesmer ever brought Mantra of Concentration cause they didn’t need it to kill people: they’d unload their burst from range and blink away before the payback came. Thieves too, would jump around, evading and stealthing, and avoiding all the hammer blows, magnets, and big ol’ bombs. But Reaper’s didn’t care that you were stealthed when you dazed me with your sword 1 or feared me with your skull, it hits you anyway. Just today I was fighting a shatter mesmer in team queue, he stealthed himself to stomp one of my teammates: halfway through it he decided he wasn’t sure if he could finish stomping before I could finish reviving, so he hits Diversion to stun me and interrupt my stomp. Naturally, RP procs, even though he’s stealthed, he gets feared off, I finish reviving, and we kill him.

Now, obviously these builds are still being used, they’ll continue to be used, and they’re still vulnerable to RP. But I think in the medium term there’ll be a few fewer S/D thieves and shatter mesmers around. The “anti-sustain” role will be taken over by ranger, who has multiple effective counters against fear (not to mention that they can CC us from outside RP’s range). In that meta, there are fewer targets susceptible to RP (any warrior with half a brain will pop an appropriate stance before introducing his hammer to your face), so the opportunity cost of not having stability yourself massively increases. For duels etc, RP will still be effective, as, even if they expect it the first time and pop stability before engaging, it’ll probably catch them out when it comes out of cooldown again. But for 5v5 matches, I think people will gravitate elsewhere.

i really don’t see how condi necro is good. everyone speaks of it as the best spec for a necro but all i get is immunity shoved in my face while using it i cant get away i cant do damage i don’t get enough lf i really do not understand what you guys see in it that i don’t.

and eles are basically immune to you
not to mention i kill them all the time =s

unlucky.9285:

i really don’t see how condi necro is good. everyone speaks of it as the best spec for a necro but all i get is immunity shoved in my face while using it i cant get away i cant do damage i don’t get enough lf i really do not understand what you guys see in it that i don’t.

It’s not good, but still has a viable niche role: amazing condition and boon control. If it wasn’t for that bunker meta, no one will use condition necromancer -Talking about pre patch, didn’t try it after the feature patch, but from what I heard, it’s still used for the same reason-.

but they just pop the boons back on straight away and cc you to death =|

For some reason, my post got deleted. Reposting what I said 3 hours ago.

Soul Marks is better than Reaper’s Protection.

Condition necromancer is still great. Two of our biggest counters in team fights — warriors and thieves — got nerfed. Rangers really shouldn’t be a problem for a necromancer at all, especially with proper positioning.

I think you meant greater mark.

unlucky.9285:

but they just pop the boons back on straight away and cc you to death =|

You need to watch your position when you condition bomb your focus target.

Lopez.7369:

No, I mean Soul Marks.

They don’t compete for the same spot trait wise. So really, telling us that soul marks is better than RP, is basically saying greater mark should be taken over reaper’s protection because it has a better synergy with soul marks.

It’s not about that very same trait slot. It’s not mandatory to have 4 points in Death Magic, so you might as well point out that any other trait you’d get in a different line is better than Reaper’s Protection.
However, I’m not a fan of Soul Marks myself. But I guess it’s ok if you’re really desperate for lf regen.

flow.6043:

It’s not about that very same trait slot. It’s not mandatory to have 4 points in Death Magic, so you might as well point out that any other trait you’d get in a different line is better than Reaper’s Protection.
However, I’m not a fan of Soul Marks myself. But I guess it’s ok if you’re really desperate for lf regen.

Sorry, I assumed we were talking about 0/6/4/0/4 condition build without taking into consideration other variants. For the rest, I pretty much agree

Lopez.7369:

As mentioned, you’re not bound to four in Death Magic. You can take two from Death Magic and put it into Soul Reaping. (I actually think this inability to think slightly outside of Death Magic is why people started taking Reaper’s Protection in the first place. Otherwise, people are just overrating a really hit-or-miss trait.)

It’s a massive survivability boost, it lets you roam better, and it makes 1v1s even easier. Considering how many necromancers complain about sustained survivability and life force generation, I’m not sure why so many take the hit-or-miss proc over consistent sustained.

Anyway, I doubt it would help most necromancers, since they all seem to have learned from the “pros” and die immediately after they Dark Path into a guardian to corrupt his fury and retaliation.

you actually don’t even have to take master of terror in the first place, i personally would always take soulmarks if i dont run a full out fear build, which i never do if nobody forces me to. And actually, if you dont take 4 in deathmagic theres also no real need to take 2, you might aswell go 2 in bloodmagic and take the mark on dodge which works quite nicely with soulmarks. that being said i like my 4 in deathmagic for my unblockable marks, guards always “love” that.
For all the fear onyl cheesomancers that are in need of a more reliable build: http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=;0_-34;0kHFC0x3sJkJ0;9;5TJ-J;158C46;219-VwG4U;1jzyvjzyv2m

Lopez.7369:

Anyway, I doubt it would help most necromancers, since they all seem to have learned from the “pros” and die immediately after they Dark Path into a guardian to corrupt his fury and retaliation.

Wow, the arrogance is strong with this paragraph.

a good shatter Mesmer can shut down a necro so they cant do anything =s its what I do to them XD such an easy kill >.<

unlucky.9285:

a good shatter Mesmer can shut down a necro so they cant do anything =s its what I do to them XD such an easy kill >.<

I agree, a good shatter mesmer who knows how to kite shouldn’t lose to a necromancer 1v1. But in 2v2, it’s another story.

sorrychief.2563:

we don’t have to ask for greatsword now that dagger cleaves.

relevance?
i think most people wanted greatsword for a leap which we need but it’ll never happen, anet thinks they done good.

moi.4398:

flow.6043:

moi.4398:

Greater mark is really usefull only on guard while RP will be ok against everything imo

More like the other way around.

The unblockable part of Greater Marks is good against anyone who uses blocks… so basically everyone except necros and thieves.
And then there’s the size: hugely underrated! It adds almost 80% extra surface area. It means higher range, more hits in team fights, better area control, bigger poison field and blast finisher area.

RP on the other hand doesn’t work against everyone at all. If your target happens to have stability or any other form of immunity against conditions it’s wasted. Also, you can’t control any part of it. You don’t know when it will trigger and when it’s off cd again. It will likely trigger when your target is out of reach and you can’t follow up with any pressure properly. The situations when this trait has a great impact on a fight are really very rare.

I run greaters mark in WvW and RP in tpvp . I completely agree greater mark is better but as I said , ( I like to record my soloQ matches ) , RP saved my life soooo much time in tpvp . I just can’t explain it , no argumentation i know xD . But it’s just a feeling

I run a staff for lack of a better option, yay.

flow.6043:

Bhawb.7408:

You have both nightmare and reaper’s protection procs.

Imo Reaper’s Protection is a bad trait and no one should use it.
As to the fear proc of nightmare runes: the only reason they are being used over other condi runes is the 4th bonus.

Also, a fear proc with 1 hour cooldown is hardly a good counter measure to being pinballed.

Reapers protection is an aoe fear; are you stupid?

It’s most definitely not a bad trait at all, and I would rather take that than greater marks. Marks are easier to land.

Jelzouki.4128:

Reapers protection is an aoe fear; are you stupid?

Yes that must be it… I’m just stupid. -_-

Jelzouki.4128:

It’s most definitely not a bad trait at all, and I would rather take that than greater marks. Marks are easier to land.

Greater Marks is certainly not about making marks “easier to land”.

You know, you could actually read the entire thread next time. You’d have noticed that several people made some arguments that are a little more elaborate than “…it’s an aoe fear”.

So… run the trait once in a while to keep thieves honest?

Our Lich got pretty much overnerfed from what I’ve experienced after a hour of play.

I found myself not using my elite at all. I can burst better out of Lich, golem’s charge is constantly side stepped… Also, with all Rangers around people bring annoying reflects sometimes which hurt my Necro, too.

I also face more medi guards which tend to be tough play and one requiring preparation.

People keep talking about their burst not being as good but I’m still hitting hard as hell, are you all not using zerk amulet? I figured the non zerker amulets using lich would take a little hit but I figured zerk would be fine.

NeXeD.3042:

People keep talking about their burst not being as good but I’m still hitting hard as hell, are you all not using zerk amulet? I figured the non zerker amulets using lich would take a little hit but I figured zerk would be fine.

I have found people are having an easier time killing me in lich form before I can down them since the update =\

unlucky.9285:

I have found people are having an easier time killing me in lich form before I can down them since the update =\

What traits are you running?

It’s probably because he’s getting reflected and doesn’t notice it also rangers probably pew pewing him. Before all the rangers I also had an easier time on the lich, but if you are in a game against a couple rangers they just focus the kitten out of the power necro since we can’t do kitten to them.

Ah, that makes sense, NeXeD – the big green target effect. Lich can dodge but no one wants to miss an auto-attack. Lich is not exactly the ultimate face-tanker, not like Plague.