Guild Wars 2

ehhhhhh. Idk. The changes are fine but again they completely avoid every issue the necro community brings up the most. I don’t really care to list any of them since they’re so easy to find.

Even if the dev team does not play or playtest the necro (probably true) the necro community offers as much input on the subject that they almost don’t have to.

MM got nerfed so meh. I’m not a fan of MM myself but I guess they were too strong.

Dhummfire change was actually disheartening since I had just made a hybrid build with 4% crit chance :P and dhummfire.

Looking at the “changes” they are all nerfs. Simply put. Whether they are smart or not they all nerfed the skills/traits they changed.

You won’t be able to proc dhummfire as often now. That’s pretty simple to note. Putrid explosion being blockable is smart sure but just completely nerfs the hell out of it since blocking is given to like every profession quite generously.

Soooo yeah. Lots of nerfs.

Bhawb.7408:

Condi Necro in PvP has always been best as Carrion, dhuumfire just forced you to take enough crit to work with, this will revert that back.

PvE/WvW it has pretty much always been the “rabid” set because of the higher stat caps and the way toughness can scale back into condition damage.

Actually i am wondering is carrion performing better because of the vitality or the power stat?

I tested alot and i am still not really convinced that vitality is a better stat than thoughness for necros as defensive stat. And yes i know that necros scale probably the best with vitality of all professions, but still i dont really feel it…

Sorry for the off topic.

@Fungalfoot
Ok, but don’t take it personally.
Probably some guy from ANET is rolling his face on the top of the ladderboard with his Hambowrrior. I can’t do anything about it.

They think the vessel of the anti condi meta is the Warrior which Healing Signet consist in a basic neutralization of the condition damage. So if it’s part of their Condition Nerf Project, they can’t make it useless for it.

I don’t understand why they blamed the change on “non-skillful play”. Like what kinda garbage excuse is that to change something. Meanwhile Healing Signet will remain broken for decades.

Muchacho.2390:

Bhawb.7408:

Condi Necro in PvP has always been best as Carrion, dhuumfire just forced you to take enough crit to work with, this will revert that back.

PvE/WvW it has pretty much always been the “rabid” set because of the higher stat caps and the way toughness can scale back into condition damage.

Actually i am wondering is carrion performing better because of the vitality or the power stat?

I tested alot and i am still not really convinced that vitality is a better stat than thoughness for necros as defensive stat. And yes i know that necros scale probably the best with vitality of all professions, but still i dont really feel it…

Sorry for the off topic.

Agreed
The passive bleed on crits and runes of undead are completely rabid compatible.

Luke.4562:

@Fungalfoot
Ok, but don’t take it personally.
Probably some guy from ANET is rolling his face on the top of the ladderboard with his Hambowrrior. I can’t do anything about it.

None of us can and that is exactly what is so frustrating about this. There were tons of excellent suggestions for much needed improvements and every single one went ignored by them.

Personally I’ve never been a fan of Dumbfire or even our role as condition dumpers. I’ve played power and hybrid builds exclusively. I would have welcomed these changes if they came accompanied by something positive. But no, they took all the suggestions for nerfs and none of the suggestions for improvements. Something as simple as giving us back our shroud block would have been fantastic but they couldn’t even be bothered to do that.

Muchacho.2390:

Actually i am wondering is carrion performing better because of the vitality or the power stat?

I tested alot and i am still not really convinced that vitality is a better stat than thoughness for necros as defensive stat. And yes i know that necros scale probably the best with vitality of all professions, but still i dont really feel it…

Sorry for the off topic.

Both. Vitality essentially scales equally with toughness on Necromancers, whereas on almost every other class toughness outscales vitality once you have just enough vitality to not instantly die to bursts. However our Vitality has the same over-time scaling as toughness, so they basically even out.

Power is really the tipping point in sPvP though. The precision from Rabid really doesn’t add anything important to your build besides a few bleeds, whereas a lot of our skills hit fairly hard with Carrion’s power.

Someone who’s actually a good condi Necro could explain it all, but essentially it is both the vitality and power that set it above, because in sPvP they both end up scaling just a bit better than their counterpoints on rabid.

Question: could a necro inflict Dhuumfire on himself if an opponent uses a projectile reflect skill? Or does it count as the opponent’s Life Blast when he sends it back? And if so, can he proc stuff with it on his own?

flow.6043:

Question: could a necro inflict Dhuumfire on himself if an opponent uses a projectile reflect skill? Or does it count as the opponent’s Life Blast when he sends it back? And if so, can he proc stuff with it on his own?

lol that would be funny but I would assume burning would be inflicted on the necro unless he is able to dodge the attack that was reflected.

Bhawb.7408:

Muchacho.2390:

Actually i am wondering is carrion performing better because of the vitality or the power stat?

I tested alot and i am still not really convinced that vitality is a better stat than thoughness for necros as defensive stat. And yes i know that necros scale probably the best with vitality of all professions, but still i dont really feel it…

Sorry for the off topic.

Both. Vitality essentially scales equally with toughness on Necromancers, whereas on almost every other class toughness outscales vitality once you have just enough vitality to not instantly die to bursts. However our Vitality has the same over-time scaling as toughness, so they basically even out.

Power is really the tipping point in sPvP though. The precision from Rabid really doesn’t add anything important to your build besides a few bleeds, whereas a lot of our skills hit fairly hard with Carrion’s power.

Someone who’s actually a good condi Necro could explain it all, but essentially it is both the vitality and power that set it above, because in sPvP they both end up scaling just a bit better than their counterpoints on rabid.

This is actually what i thought when i asked.

I need to watch it again, but I thought their body language changed completely when talking about necros. The energy they had talking about other classes was gone. After talking about the putrid explosion nerf the conversation about the changes went downhill quickly. They didnt explain their reasoning for the nerf to Vampiric Master or even what the nerf actually is. I dont like to think they are apathetic toward necros, but it is hard not to have that impression. Perhaps when some patches notes come out I’ll find a reason to start playing this game again.

I wish they nerf necros into the ground so all these fanboys will stop playing my favorite class. Keep up the good work for giving necro build to much attention all you streamers and such.

I hope we see buffs to our life steal traits, ether better scaling with healingpower or a change to an icd but mor lifeleach per proc. But knowing Anet probably not…

@flow @Bhawb @Rennoko When you say you’re happy with the dhuumfire change, have actually looked at the numbers?

I ran them through a build editor real quick and it seems Dhuumfire will deal about 2k damage per proc (note the 10sec ICD). Again, quickly, that seems about 2 to 3 times more than scepter autoattack. So you’re essential doing like a full chain of scepter AA in damage in half the time and you’re adding another condition to cleanse. Though, at the cost of being less reliable to land and using up very valuable sustain… All that as a grandmaster(!) trait? Again, are you really happy with this?

I assume that they know the numbers and are simply happy because Dumbfire is getting nerfed and hope that this will lead to the class getting some much needed core improvements.

And while I too think that Dumbfire is something which should have never tainted this class I don’t share that positive outlook. Most likely this will just lead to our class becoming even more irrelevant. I’d love to see some hard numbers on how popular the necromancer is at the moment.

Arvid.3829:

I ran them through a build editor real quick and it seems Dhuumfire will deal about 2k damage per proc (note the 10sec ICD). Again, quickly, that seems about 2 to 3 times more than scepter autoattack. So you’re essential doing like a full chain of scepter AA in damage in half the time and you’re adding another condition to cleanse. Though, at the cost of being less reliable to land and using up very valuable sustain… All that as a grandmaster(!) trait? Again, are you really happy with this?

They haven’t changed the numbers at all, except an un-nerf in PvP.

The proc is 3s of burning every 10s, which is the same as now. The only change is that it went from being a completely random proc on Crit, to being on LB. So the change just adds play/counterplay to the skill. Necros can finally control when it is applied, and opponents can potentially avoid it.

I am happy about the mechanic change, not even taking into account the numbers. The mechanic was always the problem for me with the ability and the very low skill cap. Now it is higher. If it is too weak they will buff the duration.

Have to start somewhere, where your first iteration of the skill was way overpowered and poorly implemented.

Bhawb.7408:

They haven’t changed the numbers at all, except an un-nerf in PvP.

The proc is 3s of burning every 10s, which is the same as now. The only change is that it went from being a completely random proc on Crit, to being on LB. So the change just adds play/counterplay to the skill. Necros can finally control when it is applied, and opponents can potentially avoid it.

Let’s not beat around the bush. What this really changes is that you’re going to have to sit through the lengthy life blast animation every single time you want to apply it. This will result in a very significant damage loss for condition builds who will no longer be able to proc it using their standard rotation. As it was a very reliable proc to begin with them making it not random doesn’t really benefit us. It does however benefit opponents tremendously due to how easy life blasts are to dodge.

Bhawb.7408:

Arvid.3829:

I ran them through a build editor real quick and it seems Dhuumfire will deal about 2k damage per proc (note the 10sec ICD). Again, quickly, that seems about 2 to 3 times more than scepter autoattack. So you’re essential doing like a full chain of scepter AA in damage in half the time and you’re adding another condition to cleanse. Though, at the cost of being less reliable to land and using up very valuable sustain… All that as a grandmaster(!) trait? Again, are you really happy with this?

They haven’t changed the numbers at all, except an un-nerf in PvP.

The proc is 3s of burning every 10s, which is the same as now. The only change is that it went from being a completely random proc on Crit, to being on LB. So the change just adds play/counterplay to the skill. Necros can finally control when it is applied, and opponents can potentially avoid it.

I don’t like it since it counteracts with how death shroud should be played. Right now is it expected from the conditionmancer to quickly swap in and out of deathshroud. So we have to sacrifice our only “viable” sustain to get the damage.

I am gonna wait for the patchnotes for this.

I do see options for Dhuumfire and with the 50% crit on spectral traitline we might become more burst in the overall spectrum.

I am a bit dissappointed they didn’t mention any necro fixes as of yet or any overall plans with the profession.

I would have preferred Dumbfire be removed completely.
Be happy anet doesnt feel the same.

alanis.6094:

Putrid Explosion will now be blockable.

Flesh of the Master lowered to 25%.

Dhuumfire changes — your lifeblast applies 3s burning on 10s cooldown (poster note: way to take the worst possible suggestion and roll with it, guys)!

Vampiric Master — lowered this, because its so OP

//continues to play my Mesmer, as that didn’t change a thing of build diversity//

Wow, seriously they have NO idea what so ever, forget any new MMOs it will be ANET that kills this game.

Now IF the Dhuumfire change was built into the class and not a trait – thanks would be amazing, if not i still won’t use it.

Fungalfoot.7213:

Bhawb.7408:

They haven’t changed the numbers at all, except an un-nerf in PvP.

The proc is 3s of burning every 10s, which is the same as now. The only change is that it went from being a completely random proc on Crit, to being on LB. So the change just adds play/counterplay to the skill. Necros can finally control when it is applied, and opponents can potentially avoid it.

Let’s not beat around the bush. What this really changes is that you’re going to have to do sit through the lengthy life blast animation every single time you want to apply it. This will result in a very significant damage loss for condition builds who will no longer be able to proc it using their standard rotation. As it was a very reliable proc to begin with them making it not random doesn’t really benefit us. It does however benefit opponents tremendously due to how easy life blasts are to dodge.

An overstatement.

I use fear to guarantee my ds2 hits, and now I will make sure to wait the extra half second to let the lb finish right as I port in. And now, I get a much more reliable burn spread on epidemic, a reinforced need to take ds tree III, and I get punished if I don’t land my fear and lb.

It isn’t a bad change. Now you don’t have to worry about it procing on a pet from your marks or scepter 2.

Pve I feel for you. It was tedious playing necro there anyhow with conditions. Just play power and put yourself out of your misery.

Bhawb.7408:

They haven’t changed the numbers at all, except an un-nerf in PvP.

The proc is 3s of burning every 10s, which is the same as now. The only change is that it went from being a completely random proc on Crit, to being on LB. So the change just adds play/counterplay to the skill. Necros can finally control when it is applied, and opponents can potentially avoid it.

Except, it’s 4 seconds now in PvE… And with it no longer being applying alongside other things, but requiring it’s own casttime, is a big hit on the trait’s damage. I’m all for making this trait more active, but reducing it’s damage by 50% in the process is not ok… (Unless they are also planning to revert all the other nerfs that were introduced to help balance this.)

Rennoko.5731:

Pve I feel for you. It was tedious playing necro there anyhow with conditions. Just play power and put yourself out of your misery.

Except, as condi you actually feel like you’re doing something different (dare I say unique?) in your team. As power, if you’re honest with yourself, you’re simply a bad warrior…

Rennoko.5731:

Fungalfoot.7213:

Bhawb.7408:

They haven’t changed the numbers at all, except an un-nerf in PvP.

The proc is 3s of burning every 10s, which is the same as now. The only change is that it went from being a completely random proc on Crit, to being on LB. So the change just adds play/counterplay to the skill. Necros can finally control when it is applied, and opponents can potentially avoid it.

Let’s not beat around the bush. What this really changes is that you’re going to have to do sit through the lengthy life blast animation every single time you want to apply it. This will result in a very significant damage loss for condition builds who will no longer be able to proc it using their standard rotation. As it was a very reliable proc to begin with them making it not random doesn’t really benefit us. It does however benefit opponents tremendously due to how easy life blasts are to dodge.

An overstatement.

I use fear to guarantee my ds2 hits, and now I will make sure to wait the extra half second to let the lb finish right as I port in. And now, I get a much more reliable burn spread on epidemic, a reinforced need to take ds tree III, and I get punished if I don’t land my fear and lb.

It isn’t a bad change. Now you don’t have to worry about it procing on a pet from your marks or scepter 2.

Pve I feel for you. It was tedious playing necro there anyhow with conditions. Just play power and put yourself out of your misery.

No concern that the Necro continues to have 0 build diversity for conditions?

Rennoko.5731:

An overstatement.

Not when you look at how much they’ve peeled bleeds in previous updates. And this is just another change aimed at combating our conditon dump which is the only thing we really do well as a class. Hey, I don’t like it but that’s the reality of the situation.

So they kick us straight in the balls without offering any real alternatives. Vampirism still sucks and power is just a poor imitation of what other classes are far more capable of.

That is the fault of blood and death magic. Yes I would have loved information on that fix and changes. Those trees need work bad.

To alanis

Fungalfoot.7213:

Rennoko.5731:

An overstatement.

Not when you look at how much they’ve peeled bleeds in previous updates. And this is just another change aimed at combating our conditon dump which is the only thing we really do well as a class. Hey, I don’t like it but that’s the reality of the situation.

So they kick us straight in the balls without offering any real alternatives. Vampirism still sucks and power is just a poor imitation of what other classes are far more capable of.

I only dabbled in spvp to stay in the top 100 in solo queue. In WvW our bleeds have not been changed.

Why are you guys really talking about dhuumfire?I dont care if it summons a clown to juggle on hit i don’t want it that’s not what i was expecting.I wanted to hear atleast something more towards trait movement,removing useless ones like that bone minnion,weapon reworks,something that changes our playstyle cause idk about you but right now it consists of meh in pve, spvp is condition bombing some classes or some classes stunning us left right up down or the popular MM thats it…nothing to discuss.

I very rarely use Dumbfire in my condition builds but I really like the change, my concern is that being it can only proc in DS with a 10 sec CD using LB which is easily dodgable IMO it is not worth the 30 pts to get it.

I still think the easiest and quickest way to balance the Necro is to revert it back to the day before Dhumbfire was added. I personally felt I had so many more build options, but I guess that is a whole other discussion.

Yeah, it’s going to become a standard tactic to always negate the first blast. And it’s not like we can prime the proc so its application is going to be woefully predictable. I see a lot of ways to counter the necromancer here but I don’t see many ways for the necromancer to get ahead against skilled opponents. Seems like we’ll be even more reliant on fear sticking to accomplish anything.

And I’d be all for removing Dumbfire and reverting the multitude of nerfs which came with it.

Deadcell.9052:

I very rarely use Dumbfire in my condition builds but I really like the change, my concern is that being it can only proc in DS with a 10 sec CD using LB which is easily dodgable IMO it is not worth the 30 pts to get it.

I still think the easiest and quickest way to balance the Necro is to revert it back to the day before Dhumbfire was added. I personally felt I had so many more build options, but I guess that is a whole other discussion.

Im sure most of the necro’s that where around before Dumbfire was added might feel the same. I know I do

Flesh of the Master lowered to 25%.

WTF? I’d understand in PVE but in wvw they don’t get a boost!

And lol@ vampiric master nerf.

As a condition necromancer all I have to contribute to my party is damage, and I just keep losing more of it. Life blast? Really? You might as well remove the trait at this point, because there’s no way I’m ever going to utilize a weak projectile with a slow, wind-up, and a loud tell that makes me sit around in DS for longer than I need to be while having to deal with the risk my shot might be dodged, or reflected. I suppose people that are traited for death shroud will be happy over this, but I’m certainly not.

Sure, the trait might have been a bit mindless, and overpowered, but I really feel as though this ‘fix’ could have been handled better.

Now all I need to do is wait until they confirm my rune set has been nerfed so I can quit this game for another eight months only to find that Necros have been nerfed again during my abscence because of the PVP meta, and that Anet refuses to separate PVE/PVP changes.

God, this is just so soul crushing. There’s probably a pun to be made, but I just don’t have the motivation to come up with one. why why why do we keep getting nerfed? Just throw us a bone already

30 points in a (power + condition duration) tree for a trait that adds burning to a power skill with a 1 second cast time? Am I getting that right?

Could they atleast lower the cast time of Life Blast. That skill has always been sluggish garbage in my opinion. It’s underwater counterpart is much more satisfying.

Some necro’s like myself like to play a bit more aggressive instead of playing it safe from a distance so swapping weapons and giving 3 stacks of aoe bleeds is nice.

Lopez.7369:

That’s just bad positioning. It would get you killed immediately in high-level play.

Meh, High level or hotjoin. I have fun with it.

Actually some good discussion in this thread for once. Personally I like the changes (as a whole). I would stress to everyone dont look at the necro in isolation, look at it compared to other classes.

Minion nerfs were fine. I mean minions has never been good and nerfing it is ok because AI sucks. Probably wasn’t needed tho.

As for dhuumfire. Honestly I cant see why anyone would take it now except in a hybrid power/condi build (possibly 30/x/x/x/30) which wants to build life force and do damage from range with wells, life blast, staff and scepter/dagger. Problem with this build will always be that using ur life force offensively isnt always possible. In addition you are so squishy and easy to train own with no toughness/evades/blocks and light armour. Also staff and scepter scale terribly with power. So your direct damage is all about life blast and wells. Not really the best strategy. Not bad, but not really that good either tbh. And if you want to do direct damage you could get more dps out of 20% extra dps under 50% health trait than the new dhuumfire.

The changes to dhuumfire mean that surely now it is incorrect to go for any points in the spite line.
So you put 20/30 in curses. Then what? It would be nice to go into death magic, but that is not a good idea right now with the horrible 5 and 15 minor traits. So i guess going 0/30/0/10/30 could be a thing again like the old days. Or perhaps people just stick with 30/20/0/0/20 and just have the worse version of dhuumfire. You get condi duration that way too.

But honestly, I think I will ditch the dhuumfire trait after this patch, and will be happy about it. I would much rather put more points into lines which can help me sustain than take dhuumfire. I want to sustain in fights (rather than ledge excessively) on a condi build. Perhaps this will be possible after the patch (atm way better to just run glass cannon/rabid necro)

Lopez.7369:

That’s just bad positioning. It would get you killed immediately in high-level play.

Every high level Necro I’ve ever talked to has told me Carrion, with the exception of picking up just enough crit chance to make Dhuumfire proc, was the best. Symbolic, Zombify, Gibbly (when he played), Tenderley, among others. The only time I’ve heard otherwise is on the forums.

They also all use Geomancy (a few exceptions, like the poison on swap) and at least used to use the Weakening Shroud in close combat for the bleed bursting as aggressive play. So no, you’ll do just fine.

Lopez.7369:

That’s just bad positioning. It would get you killed immediately in high-level play.

I play rabid necro aggresviely like this. Of course I dont sit on a point. But often run through it to burst. It is way harder to play but the upside is huge as you can carry team fights. I prob go back to ledging since I dont play much anymore and I am pretty bad right now.

Bhawb.7408:

Lopez.7369:

That’s just bad positioning. It would get you killed immediately in high-level play.

Every high level Necro I’ve ever talked to has told me Carrion, with the exception of picking up just enough crit chance to make Dhuumfire proc, was the best. Symbolic, Zombify, Gibbly (when he played), Tenderley, among others. The only time I’ve heard otherwise is on the forums.

I think he was talking about using sigil of geomancy

I edited it in. Geomancy has been meta for ages.

Lopez.7369:

Bhawb.7408:

Every high level Necro I’ve ever talked to has told me Carrion, with the exception of picking up just enough crit chance to make Dhuumfire proc, was the best. Symbolic, Zombify, Gibbly (when he played), Tenderley, among others. The only time I’ve heard otherwise is on the forums.

They also all use Geomancy (a few exceptions, like the poison on swap) and at least used to use the Weakening Shroud in close combat for the bleed bursting as aggressive play. So no, you’ll do just fine.

Well, you’re talking to one who disagrees. (Besides, at least Gibbly said that because, for whatever reason, he thought toughness doesn’t work in Death Shroud.)

It simply makes no mathematical sense to take vitality over toughness on a class that has so much condition transfer and base health, especially when it sacrifices precision for power and therefore limits the availability of Barbed Precision and Sigil of Earth, which both add way more damage than Weakening Shroud and Sigil of Geomancy combined and don’t require close range.

Lordrosicky.5813:

Lopez.7369:

That’s just bad positioning. It would get you killed immediately in high-level play.

I play rabid necro aggresviely like this. Of course I dont sit on a point. But often run through it to burst. It is way harder to play but the upside is huge as you can carry team fights. I prob go back to ledging since I dont play much anymore and I am pretty bad right now.

That’s fine. Everyone should do that, even without Sigil of Geomancy, because of Tainted Shackles and Doom. Sigil of Geomancy isn’t necessary for that, and Sigil of Earth can actually apply way more bleeds.

TBH i run energy on every build and on every class in the game. I just think its the best sigil in the game by a long way. Necro I would run 2 energy always.

Another nerf for necro, nerfed minion master, nerfed condition bomber; sometime I ask myself why don’t I relog war? They have more direct dmg, they have more cond dmg , they have more usefull support utilities, they have more move skills, they are more durable. And only 8% nerfed healing signet (30 hp per second less!!!!!!!!!) and Pin Down with a little cast time (finaly).

Realy nice balance, War wars 2 :|

I hope they watch this subforum in regards to the necro’s wishes for DS/sustain.
Dhuumfire should either be merged or moved from GM with these changes.

I am also wondering if the proc will now be on the first attack of lifeblast in basicly most situations.

Because you don’t have to sit in a weapon set on Necro, Deathshroud is used aggressively in bleed burst builds.

Lopez.7369:

That’s just bad positioning. It would get you killed immediately in high-level play.

Thats an opinion, which is fine, but its not a fact. I play by the aggressive in your face play style, and its far easier to land your targeted skills by aiming at your feet rather than at a moving target. It works wonders against mesmers, makes thieves have a false sense that they’re winning, and no matter how hard you try, you’re never going to keep range away any class that wants to be in your face, so might as well stick to their face and make it easier on yourself.

And again, a fact of high level play is that the vast majority of high level Necromancers, including the ones that have played on numerous teams and in many tournaments at the highest level of play GW2 offers, have said that Carrion is better and that Geomancy is better.

If you disagree, that is entirely fine and you are welcome to your opinion. If you want to post math that proves that, again that is fine. But otherwise you aren’t going to convince anyone that you are right just because you say so.

Lopez.7369:

Sorry, it’s a fact in high-level play. Briefly going into close range during Death Shroud for Tainted Shackles and Doom can be effective, but sticking around in close range is just terrible.

It’s always possible to stay at range with pre-emptive kiting. At worst, a good necromancer won’t be able to shake an enemy off but will be able to drag that enemy into friendly territory, which is even better than just staying at range. Barring bad play, there shouldn’t be any circumstances in which a necromancer struggles to keep proper positioning for long periods of time.

This is just not true at all. All the melee builds have far more gap closers than we have dodge rolls. If someone wants to get in our face, they’ll get in our face and theres nothing we can do to stop it.

Stop trying to pass your opinions off as fact. This is what is known as arrogance.