Guild Wars 2

To a group but damage..?

Just hope its lots of damage and lots of vuln. Otherwise its no change other than some fun new flavour.

Anet dosent want us to do that, we known this for 3y so why still ask for it… maybe the Increased dmg + cleave + shouts can give you the PvE tools u want (i dont do PvE) but buffing allies never really bin the concept of Necro

The Necro’s damage would need to effectively be doubled to both close the gap between it an eles/thieves and give it a large enough DPS premium over those classes to offset the lack of utility the class brings.

I highly doubt we’re going to be seeing that kind of damage.

Ravezaar.4951:

Anet dosent want us to do that, we known this for 3y so why still ask for it… maybe the Increased dmg + cleave + shouts can give you the PvE tools u want (i dont do PvE) but buffing allies never really bin the concept of Necro

It’s not buffing allies, it’s everything else..

Thieves bring stealth, mesmers and guardians bring reflects, warriors bring banners, ranger brings spotter and spirits, engineers can even provide stealth and a truck load of vuln.

Necro’s pretty much bring nothing but damage, and it seems this isn’t changing.

Please can you provide the link to the full reaper information you based this on?

From what I have read from the only official source of information we have so far:

We do not know if shouts only effect enemies.
We do not know if any reaper traits provide support.
We do not know if the greatsword has any blast/leap finishers

The blog, as far as I can tell, does not provide enough information to make any accurate judgement on the Reaper’s supportive capability, or lack thereof. So unless you have some insider information you can link to us, lets try not to jump to conclusions.

If they changed
> Cold Shoulder—Chill lasts longer, and chilled foes deal less damage to you.
to
> Cold Shoulder—Chill lasts longer, and chilled foes deal less damage.
or
> Cold Shoulder—Chill lasts longer, inflict weakness on chilled foes.
Instant boost to everyone survivability.

They can easily provide group utility while keeping the “selfish” theme by adding meaningful debuffs. They just don’t want to. I wish to be proven wrong tomorrow, but I’ve lost hope.

Charblaze.6958:

If they changed
> Cold Shoulder—Chill lasts longer, and chilled foes deal less damage to you.
to
> Cold Shoulder—Chill lasts longer, and chilled foes deal less damage.
or
> Cold Shoulder—Chill lasts longer, inflict weakness on chilled foes.
Instant boost to everyone survivability.

They can easily provide group utility while keeping the “selfish” theme by adding meaningful debuffs. They just don’t want to. I wish to be proven wrong tomorrow, but I’ve lost hope.

Agreed. Seriously wondering what they are afraid of. Surely they cant be scared of OP classes when we have a class like ele.

Rin.1046:

We do not know if shouts only effect enemies.

Reaper shouts differ from warrior and guardian shouts in that they focus more on harming foes than they do on bolstering allies.

The other 2 i’ll give you for now, but with Anets track record, and the Necromancers complaints of too many abilities containing long cast times only for Anet to add even more to the class, I think it’s fair to say my comment still stands, necromancers will still bring only damage to groups.

People keep crying about Reaper when Reaper is going to be part of the new Meta because of this spec. While Guardian got nothing. You all need to calm the hell down.

Dinks.2478:

People keep crying about Reaper when Reaper is going to be part of the new Meta because of this spec. While Guardian got nothing. You all need to calm the hell down.

Guardian got nothing?
We must’ve watched the wrong streams then, because as a guardian main, i was very very impressed with what I saw.

So far, I’m not impressed with what I’ve read about the necromancer.

Why exactly is Reaper going to be a part of the ‘new meta’ as well if you don’t mind me asking?

Dinks.2478:

People keep crying about Reaper when Reaper is going to be part of the new Meta because of this spec. While Guardian got nothing. You all need to calm the hell down.

Yeah except guard is getting huge buffs in PvE through dragonhunter.

Dinks.2478:

People keep crying about Reaper when Reaper is going to be part of the new Meta because of this spec. While Guardian got nothing. You all need to calm the hell down.

The guardian is already part of the meta. Whether the necro will also be part of it now, depends entirely on if we get proper defense, and party support.

From the first look of it, it’s really disappointing…

No support.
Probably no combo finisher.
Even slower than he already is.
More AI minion.
Skill that will be easily interruptable, dodged etc…

Exactly what most of us feared. And as expected, they kitten up with the trait unyelding blast… Changing DS without addressing any core issue, that’s just disappointing.

And i’ll dare to say that I hardly see in what this elite spec could be related with Marjory? Oh sorry, yes, the greatsword…

NB. : Guardian gain AoE reveal, massive damage bonus, a viable range option that was doing already more damage than any necro range option on the video, a real possibility for condibuild and massive CC that will be direct counter to this “reaper” spec.

JoshuaRAWR.4653:

Reaper shouts differ from warrior and guardian shouts in that they focus more on harming foes than they do on bolstering allies.

I’ve highlight the part I think most people seem to be missing. ‘More than’ does not equal ‘instead of’.

They dont need more vuln, they have vuln comming out of their ears with vuln on chill, focus 4, well of suffering, etc. What they need is might/fury/quickness for the group, reliable blast finisher, useful fields (water, fire), or unique group buff like 150 ferocity to all allies within 600 radius or something along those lines.

Rin.1046:

JoshuaRAWR.4653:

Reaper shouts differ from warrior and guardian shouts in that they focus more on harming foes than they do on bolstering allies.

I’ve highlight the part I think most people seem to be missing. ‘More than’ does not equal ‘instead of’.

More than still implies less options for support.

If they focus more on the damage, the beneficial effects applied will be lackluster at best (if any) to compensate.

Dinks.2478:

People keep crying about Reaper when Reaper is going to be part of the new Meta because of this spec. While Guardian got nothing. You all need to calm the hell down.

Oh?

Necromancers finally get projectile defense like Wall of Reflection? Damage blocks and Aegis? Access to vigor – and the ability give it to other people? Stability and the ability to give it to allies? Mobility via teleports on two skills and a utility?

C’mon man, share with us your reasoning why melee damage + chill (Glacial Heart anyone?) is suddenly meta for ANY game mode.

spoj.9672:

Just hope its lots of damage and lots of vuln. Otherwise its no change other than some fun new flavour.

Every chill will inflect 5 vuln stacks right, combine with offhand focus, chill of death, every fear will chill, etc etc, we might have some nice stuff
+ If DS is full melee specced damage might even be awesome aswell

Warcry.8914:

Dinks.2478:

People keep crying about Reaper when Reaper is going to be part of the new Meta because of this spec. While Guardian got nothing. You all need to calm the hell down.

Oh?

Necromancers finally get projectile defense like Wall of Reflection? Damage blocks and Aegis? Access to vigor – and the ability give it to other people? Stability and the ability to give it to allies? Mobility via teleports on two skills and a utility?

C’mon man, share with us your reasoning why melee damage + chill (Glacial Heart anyone?) is suddenly meta for ANY game mode.

That’s cute, the chill gets removed Kappa

Warcry.8914:

Dinks.2478:

People keep crying about Reaper when Reaper is going to be part of the new Meta because of this spec. While Guardian got nothing. You all need to calm the hell down.

Oh?

Necromancers finally get projectile defense like Wall of Reflection? Damage blocks and Aegis? Access to vigor – and the ability give it to other people? Stability and the ability to give it to allies? Mobility via teleports on two skills and a utility?

C’mon man, share with us your reasoning why melee damage + chill (Glacial Heart anyone?) is suddenly meta for ANY game mode.

The man cant read, dont bother arguing with him. He disliked LB and traps and is on a smear crusade against DH. check his history if you dont believe me.

It’s a bit early for this thread by about 24 hours or more. Just because our shouts target enemies not allies does not mean we don’t bring group support with them. The other shouts could easily have a hex-like mechanic that translate into extra DPS by allies on targets affected by Reaper shouts.

Which is all Might stacks, Vulnerability and Fury do. Buff overall allied DPS.

Don’t underestimate the amount of Chill the Reaper may have access to. If a Reaper can chill PvE mobs nearly 24/7 by just DPSing, that brings a lot of soft damage mitigation in of itself by slowing skill CDs and keeping mob movement to a minimum. Then there’s the possible changes to core trait lines and skills we have to consider as well.

We will have to wait and see, but I was really hoping for Orders or Ritualist Weapon Spells for our Elite spec.

Falcon.8713:

spoj.9672:

Just hope its lots of damage and lots of vuln. Otherwise its no change other than some fun new flavour.

Every chill will inflect 5 vuln stacks right, combine with offhand focus, chill of death, every fear will chill, etc etc, we might have some nice stuff
+ If DS is full melee specced damage might even be awesome aswell

Thats assuming they dont nerf it though. Im really scared of them adding an ICD. They do seem to love them so much after all.

spoj.9672:

Falcon.8713:

spoj.9672:

Just hope its lots of damage and lots of vuln. Otherwise its no change other than some fun new flavour.

Every chill will inflect 5 vuln stacks right, combine with offhand focus, chill of death, every fear will chill, etc etc, we might have some nice stuff
+ If DS is full melee specced damage might even be awesome aswell

Thats assuming they dont nerf it though. Im really scared of them adding an ICD. They do seem to love them so much after all.

Let’s hope they don’t :/

I would be excited more about Chill if they finally fixed kittening Thief’s half immunity to that.

Ravezaar.4951:

Anet dosent want us to do that, we known this for 3y so why still ask for it… maybe the Increased dmg + cleave + shouts can give you the PvE tools u want (i dont do PvE) but buffing allies never really bin the concept of Necro

well, not so much buffing allies. But I’ll still beg to differ! The guild wars one necromancer had a very unique way of supporting allies that we don’t see in GW2.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Blood_Bond
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Blood_Ritual
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Blood_is_Power
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Dark_Fury
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Order_of_Pain
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Order_of_the_Vampire
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Well_of_Blood
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Well_of_Power
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Barbs
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Mark_of_Pain
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Death_Nova
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Tainted_Flesh
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Withering_Aura

JoshuaRAWR.4653:

Rin.1046:

JoshuaRAWR.4653:

Reaper shouts differ from warrior and guardian shouts in that they focus more on harming foes than they do on bolstering allies.

I’ve highlight the part I think most people seem to be missing. ‘More than’ does not equal ‘instead of’.

More than still implies less options for support.

If they focus more on the damage, the beneficial effects applied will be lackluster at best (if any) to compensate.

I’ll continue to read this as “4 out of 6 shouts will harm enemies” with the remaining two being buffs for teammates, instead of “shouts will have lackluster groupbuffs”.

Also : Let’s imagine a shout with “deal damage; inflict 5 stacks of vulnerability per enemy struck”. This HURTS enemies rather than buff allies, but has the potential of instantly inflicting 25 stacks of vuln.

Or : “Put a debuff on struck enemies; they take x more damage per enemy struck”. Believe me, if we got that Reapers would have a spot in dungeon groups.

Or, as someone else suggested, a “reverse fury”, wher enemies can be crit more easy instead of making allies crit more.

All of those would fit the “harming enemy” category, but would indirectly support the group, and even stack with vuln, fury and might.

So, I’ll await the PoI before making my judgement…and I’ll still run Reaper for the style alone… ( GET OVER HERE!).

We’ll see how much damage/vuln it is after they release the tooltips, we could potentially push Engi out if we can deal more damage and comparable vuln.

They’re also building this spec with HoT content and the condition changes in mind; there’s a lot of stuff we can’t see yet, and attempting to theory craft what dungeon meta is going to look like is really premature until we have a better sense of the overall picture.

Bhawb.7408:

We’ll see how much damage/vuln it is after they release the tooltips, we could potentially push Engi out if we can deal more damage and comparable vuln.

You’d have to do a crazy amount more damage than we do currently to outdamage Engineers currently yet that’s discounting projectile defense, fire fields, water fields, the most blast finishers in the game, damage blocks and access to vigor and/or endurance regeneration that Engineers bring. It’s quite a hurdle to overcome to even remotely consider taking Necromancers as an Engineer alternative.

Edit: oh and Engineers are pretty nifty at providing groupwide might and stealth. Just saying.

Guys – you know little beyond the base concept of the profession. Give it a day (literally) to find out the details before making declarations about the direction of the profession.

Keep in mind that last Thursday Dragonhunter was a huge let down, but when more details were released a lot of people had their minds changed (well – besides the name).

I’m just stating that if we suddenly had tools to address our mobility, survivability and group utility I’m sure that’d be the highlight of the preview rather than what we got today. I’d love to be proven wrong and have Reaper suddenly become the answer to all of Necromancer’s problems but I’m not willing to act like some sort of battered housewife thinking that Arenanet will suddenly change it’s ways after three years.

Warcry.8914:

I’m just stating that if we suddenly had tools to address our mobility, survivability and group utility I’m sure that’d be the highlight of the preview rather than what we got today. I’d love to be proven wrong and have Reaper suddenly become the answer to all of Necromancer’s problems but I’m not willing to act like some sort of battered housewife thinking that Arenanet will suddenly change it’s ways after three years.

Having lots of chill uptime does help with mobility issues; I don’t think Necros are ever going to be given direct disengagement tools, but if you can maintain more chills than the opponent can cleanse, they can’t chase you effectively and they can’t run away. I think that, along with the gap closer on DS, is the model for Necro mobility; and this might not be enough by itself just yet, we may need to see more ways to apply or cover chill to make it harder to cleanse, but I think it can get to a good enough place.

Chill also helps with survivability, especially with the Reaper gm minor trait, and if Reaper is the recipient of the Defiance Bar grandmaster trait, that potentially solves a big problem with Death Shroud.

Group utility depends a lot on what those shouts do, but having more chill uptime is a form of group utility too, albeit less so in pve unless the new content involves more sustain and higher attack rates from mobs.

Warcry.8914:

I’m just stating that if we suddenly had tools to address our mobility, survivability and group utility I’m sure that’d be the highlight of the preview rather than what we got today. I’d love to be proven wrong and have Reaper suddenly become the answer to all of Necromancer’s problems but I’m not willing to act like some sort of battered housewife thinking that Arenanet will suddenly change it’s ways after three years.

I don’t want reaper to become the solution to necro problems because it’s a specialization not a core mechanic, so it would do absolutely nothing to fix necros….

band-aides over bullet holes……

Seeing as how the dungeon content is hte primary gauge of usefulness in things like this im not sure why everyones suprised this isn’t a dungeon focused spec.

Im sure it will be decent in dungeons. (Being able to EASILY permachill bosses will be nice)

Also the game seems to be moving away from dungeon content. So im not sure how were still using it as a bases for measurement. Necros are pretty kitten good in open world PvE often able to engage larger groups of mobs alone at the same time than there counterparts.

Also we havn’t seen the traits yet. I REALLY doubt there gonna give us a melee focused spec without giving us the tools we need to actually work in melee. Seeing as how they did pretty good with guards giving them the tools they need to work in ranged.

Eolirin.1830:

They’re also building this spec with HoT content and the condition changes in mind; there’s a lot of stuff we can’t see yet, and attempting to theory craft what dungeon meta is going to look like is really premature until we have a better sense of the overall picture.

Yes.. HoT content. However, there has been 0 info on whether or not HoT gives us a new dungeon. And old dungeons were said to not get reworked, the bosse smight not even get the defiance bars, or it will be something extremely generic.

But I agree, let’s see some numbers and the rest of the skills first. Hyped for tomorrow.

Shadelang.3012:

Necros are pretty kitten good in open world PvE

What do you mean, world completion? I ask because you could literally bring a 2/3/3/3/3 build with any stats and with any weapon and with any utility on any class and still do zerg content – content that has the most awards for non-dungeon/fractal based PVE.

Shiki.7148:

Yes.. HoT content. However, there has been 0 info on whether or not HoT gives us a new dungeon. And old dungeons were said to not get reworked, the bosse smight not even get the defiance bars, or it will be something extremely generic.

I’d like to echo this. Just because the expansion is coming out, we’re not going to suddenly stop running CoF and Fractals overnight. I for one would love to play a Necromancer in that content and feel like I’m adding more to the party beyond my personal dps.

i never rolled my necro for support, only pure damage

Ravezaar.4951:

Anet dosent want us to do that, we known this for 3y so why still ask for it… maybe the Increased dmg + cleave + shouts can give you the PvE tools u want (i dont do PvE) but buffing allies never really bin the concept of Necro

Someone hasn’t played the original Guild Wars . . .

Dinks.2478:

People keep crying about Reaper when Reaper is going to be part of the new Meta because of this spec. While Guardian got nothing. You all need to calm the hell down.

So our Elite specialization might bring us up to par with where Guardian’s are now? Oh wow, Guardian’s sure are getting the short end of that stick.

spoj.9672:

Falcon.8713:

spoj.9672:

Just hope its lots of damage and lots of vuln. Otherwise its no change other than some fun new flavour.

Every chill will inflect 5 vuln stacks right, combine with offhand focus, chill of death, every fear will chill, etc etc, we might have some nice stuff
+ If DS is full melee specced damage might even be awesome aswell

Thats assuming they dont nerf it though. Im really scared of them adding an ICD. They do seem to love them so much after all.

Unless you’re a special trait called phalanx strength of course… or distracting blows… or anything generally involving warrior.

*Waves at J.P.

pepper.6179:

i never rolled my necro for support, only pure damage

Only that power warrior outdamages power necro while still bringing teamsupport. The Necro GS would have to do INSANE damage to make it look viable to those dungeonfarmers. Courtesy of the designflaws in current PvE-content.

Then again, we know almost nothing for now. Let’s wait and see what tomo—-uhm, todays PoI brings.

You mean any class thats not necro. Theres traits like blind exposure and all those vuln on crit traits the other classes have.

Honestly I think this is exactly what the necro needed. A slow juggernaut of pure power l. As long as we get pulls, chills blinds and vuln we will be good. My only request is we get tons of regeneration or protection to five to Allies, that’s it. I want necro to be selfish, and it’s offensive should literally bleed out defense somewhat similar to the guardian. Projectile deflection would be nice but chill has such great potential. It’s one of the best condis but isn’t able to be used often like others, but now it really will be a threat. have faith

I still want healing in shroud to compensate for a shroud-centric defense, esp if that is our only defense. Just a percentage of healing in shroud would be good

Necro brings support just like every other class. If you don’t like the fact that it isn’t might stacks than go roll an ele and run CoF 1 all day

Wut? Blasphemy we bring our corpses!!!

(Had to do it…)

If money can’t make them improve necro and not allow reaper to grow on necro core issues then at least we tried but seriously let’s wait on PoI and not forget our core specializations.

Silhouette.5631:

Necro brings support just like every other class. If you don’t like the fact that it isn’t might stacks than go roll an ele and run CoF 1 all day

List the available support the class brings that is applicable on your generic boss encounter in a dungeon.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Rune_of_the_Trooper
Boom, You guys have support

Atherakhia.4086:

Silhouette.5631:

Necro brings support just like every other class. If you don’t like the fact that it isn’t might stacks than go roll an ele and run CoF 1 all day

List the available support the class brings that is applicable on your generic boss encounter in a dungeon.

See, you, need to roll an ele

P.S. Holy crap long arm has a point. Whats the point of shouts if you cant use trooper runes?

Atherakhia.4086:

Silhouette.5631:

Necro brings support just like every other class. If you don’t like the fact that it isn’t might stacks than go roll an ele and run CoF 1 all day

List the available support the class brings that is applicable on your generic boss encounter in a dungeon.

I think that was sort of his point. “Generic boss encounters” are going to be restricted to older PvE content and Fractals (although less so with Fractals due to new Frac content being added and the existing ones being easy to rework to HoT style PvE). Dungeons are pretty much a thing of the past as the focus becomes open world wvw-esk maps (minus the player vs player of course).

In HoT, Anet seems to be striving to make all forms of support more useful with better PvE mechanics that we can take advantage of, like more opportunities for condi/boon manipulation. So he’s basically saying if you want to might stack as support play a might stacking class in old dungeons while he enjoys his alterative support in newer content.

Whether that argument will be truthful remains to be seen, but better PvE AI and mechanics could make us more meta without might stacks, fury access and the works.