Guild Wars 2

Trust me, I’ve mained an ele for pvp since launch, so I know un-enjoyable gameplay and mechanics. And there are two main things…

1.) Quite a few traits, including GM traits, are not part of any viable build. Like old-school ele, however, there is an illusion that they synergize well with other traits, which is confusing. You might think that a vamp build is viable, for instance. Or an in-and-out DS boon build. Ha! Poppykitten.

2.) I don’t know what’s happened with the meta, but sPvP matches are MORE intensely lop-sided than they used to be. This isn’t a balance issue on a class-specific basis, but it does exacerbate the problem that necros are kinda crap all-around when compared with (any) other class in whatever its prime cheese build is.

Now I don’t say all of this lightly… I make this scientific announcement and analysis with all due solemnitude and sobriety: I’d love for necro to be fun — but it’s just not on par. And I don’t deny that some people have made it appear to work. But that was also the case a few months ago when some still argued that Eles were viable (and they were categorically not, despite my love and devotion).

That’s about all I had. Guess I’m a bit frustrated b/c the game’s been out a while, and the class tweaking is still pushing and pulling classes out of balance by large margins (and again, I love the progress of the last patch [for everything other than my necro]). And so it looks like necros, who went from complete obscurity around launch to OPness during condi meta and are now plunged into the depths of mediocrity (along with rangers and warriors that are AFK), will not get their day to shine for me, because I don’t think I can really stomach the lameness of warrior/engineer/thief-centric PvP much longer.

Necromancers have a problem. We are armed with many cool things which are pretty unique like Epidemic, Corrosive Poison Cloud, Spectral Wall etc.

But we have to build for 1v1. Why bring Epidemic when Guard can just AoE boonspam-cleanse it? And it doesn’t work against Warriors, Thieves, Engineers… .

I get it, so we should be more a teamfight player. Nope. We’re getting focused and trained in seconds during teamfights.

…

One might argue that joy itself can only be subjective, but whatevs…

connvince.8061:

Quite a few traits, including GM traits, are not part of any viable build.

Same for every class.

connvince.8061:

You might think that a vamp build is viable, for instance. Or an in-and-out DS boon build. Ha! Poppykitten.

No and no.
Everyone knows that vamp builds don’t work.

“in-and-out DS boon build”… lol.
First of all, this will never work. Atm you can get retaliation, fury and stability. No one would give up their entire class mechanic just to have a high uptime of these 3 boons. Besides there are other ways to have a high fury and retal uptime.
Secondly, if you buff boons-on-DS to a point where a build like this is usable, every build that uses them as a nice side effect would be a lot stronger anyway.

connvince.8061:

… it does exacerbate the problem that necros are kinda crap all-around when compared with (any) other class in whatever its prime cheese build is.
…
And I don’t deny that some people have made it appear to work.

A clear case of skill>build.
Some people appear to make it work, because it does work.
Necro is just not popular atm, among the few people that actually play necro there are even fewer who can actually pull it off to a point where they overshadow other classes as a team asset. But that doesn’t mean it’s impossible.

A clear case of skill>build.
Some people appear to make it work, because it does work.
Necro is just not popular atm, among the few people that actually play necro there are even fewer who can actually pull it off to a point where they overshadow other classes as a team asset. But that doesn’t mean it’s impossible.[/quote]

imagine a player that skilled using another class!. 1v1 a necro can work 1v2 dead 2v2 dead 3v3 dead 4v4 dead 5v5 dead… if you are against competent players they will focus you first and pour on the cc (usually only take a warrior with a hammer while the others spam 1) a necro is a hindrance I myself always go for the necro with my own necro and kill them first usually because they cant do anything at all about my fears/cc

ok.. I’ve almost run out of steam for this quarter of my time on this game..

But lets get a few things clear

China will not play this game for long. The dramatic lop-sided imbalance of the game is pretty much killing it. I used to think that they would really try to make sense of it all but not only do I just don’t see them doing it; even if they did it will most likely take them 2 more years at the rate they are moving.

They say they’re earning more than expected – I don’t believe it. I don’t believe a whole lot that comes out of the Anet camp anymore.

Just bare with this example for just a second:

I’ve asked several times to simply compare a Necro with an Engineer.

What does an engineer have access to? What attributes do they have that are lacking?
Then ask the same question for a necromancer…

It’s the simplest method ever and will just prove that this game is just… insane.

The REASONs are the biggest fail. The reasons, or class description, actually take precedence over balance.

If the description for class X stated that it had no flaws and could do everything and class Y’s description said it was.. hmm.. for example and attrition class that has to follow the strict boundaries of that concept and forgo many perks that other classes are given.. What do you even say to that?

Sadly, many people say “Well the necromancer has all these hindrances because that’s how the class was intended… like in the class description.”

So then two responses are eligible
1 (the widely more common response): Well okay. But lets try to sneak some good things in so it can still make sense of it’s description.
-OR-
2 (mine and hopefully a few others respose) ……Well f*k the kitten description. Change the concept since the concept is obviously a handicap to the class.

The tight kungkittengrip the developers have on the necromancer is like a tiny glass full of liquid. Other classes have HUGE glasses and in some cases are not even reaching half of what it can allow.

Not sure if I can take it any longer lol

Ozzy Toxin.3074:

imagine a player that skilled using another class!

Mabye I didn’t make my point clear enough earlier:
If you run the right build and reach a certain level of skill you won’t be better or contribute more to your team with a different class.

Ozzy Toxin.3074:

1v1 a necro can work

A necro can (should) win every 1v1.

Ozzy Toxin.3074:

1v2 dead

Every class is dead in a 1v2.
Some might be able to escape, but a build/class that can win a 1v2 on equal skill simply doesn’t exist.

Ozzy Toxin.3074:

2v2 dead 3v3 dead 4v4 dead 5v5 dead…

Not true.

Ozzy Toxin.3074:

if you are against competent players they will focus you first and pour on the cc (usually only take a warrior with a hammer while the others spam 1)

What you’re describing here is being outnumbered, not a fight with equal numbers in which case you can make it very hard for the opposing team to focus you. And if they do, your team is hopefully smart enough to exploit their distraction.

Ozzy Toxin.3074:

a necro is a hindrance I myself always go for the necro with my own necro and kill them first usually because they cant do anything at all about my fears/cc

Clearly you are stronger than these necros. What’s to stop them from doing the same to you?

watch Hatuey , Casuality and Noscoc ( not sure if he still plays necro )

especially Hatuey , he plays weekly tournament very often and was able to go in deep round.

in response^^ there is usually a warrior going hammer stun I winsies. and I got them first… the same applies if they get me first and I don’t manage to dodge in time after stunbreak (spamming dodge as I break stun still doesn’t work sometimes and it never goes off)

I think Zombify and his double necro team that won a tournament (one of the weekly ones IIRC) recently would have something to say about this. As much as there are still a few problems with the profession, you can make it work in high tier PvP. There has always been a group of players playing necro at high tier when everyone else says they aren’t viable.

Now, we still have problems, especially if you’re playing anything but condi, but saying that its objectively not enjoyable is a huge stretch.

Its not that playing necromancer in spvp is not enjoyable (if so then this profession is probably not the right one for you). In my opinion it is more the case that some mechanics necros have, feel clunky. For example not allowing healing while in DS is far to punishing given that we have a trait tree for healing and the importance of combos specially water fields+blast finisher. If this would be too strong, what i could understand, rebalancing the number would be better than not allowing healing at all.

I enjoy playing my necro, I must be a masochist.

If I wanted to play a class to be L337 I would play warr or guard. I play necro because I like it. It helps that I seem to be pretty ok at it, but I don’t enjoy other classes, except maybe ele.

to be honest i have found necro more enjoyable in this meta, im running a powermancer zerker and is a blast. i have minor problems in pvp except whit some perma stealth thief or perma dodge.
My advice try to stay out of MM and staff condition necro. I just think wtf is thinking this guy when i see a scepter necro or a “conditionmancer” in spvp in my humble opinion for necro is no good where a brawl can be fast and there is a tons of 1v1.

Scientifically and objectively unenjoyable in sPvP. I quite literally laughed out loud. The suffocating hubris.

Necro in this game was enough to pull me away from the more visceral, in-your-face style I was getting from my Warrior for several months. They eventually buffed Warriors up to fill in their gaps (arguably too much), and Necro playstyle drew me away.

So I don’t know, maybe just don’t play Necro because you don’t like it. Others actually do.

For me necro is generaly fun, but as mentioned wouldnt mind faser skill casting. Only thing that grinds my gear is this (sadly increasing every patch):
So what to do as condi necro when there is a team with bunk guard, 2 warriors (1 thief?) with imunity stance, diamond skin ele, turret engi. And yes i actualy had to play few times vs team combo like that. Thats no fun, being pingponged all the time while you cant do poop. And new turret engis are much harder to kill than before, good ones can easyly reflect condi transer or burn.

I’m surprised by the lack of ability to detect sarcasm or dramatic overstatement in some of you.

Also, some of you missed my point (flow – you in particular). So let me be very precise. I’m not actually saying people can’t make a necro work or that certain builds aren’t viable; I’m saying that those builds are not well conceived and are clunky. How can I make such a shockingly subjective claim? Play another class. You’ll see. Sure, several other classes have the same problem, but the necro is especially clunky.

Telling me to watch a video or that skill>class or try another build has nothing to do with this: 1.) the necro class’s traitlines have MANY glaring rabbit trails that they once intended for you to think about but then later second-guessed and nerfed into uselessness; and 2.) the working builds (those that have higher survivability via attrition or whatever other factor) are NOT the builds that the traits were centered around yet they dictate almost all of the balancing. 3.) The necro’s viable mechanics are therefore often clunky and do not synergize well outside of PvE.

The case in point is the vamp build. YES, I get it, it’s not viable. But it is exceedingly obvious that they at one point intended for it to be viable, created quite a few traits around it, created weapon effects that harness it, and made it synergize theoretically. But alas, it is a bygone relic of some dev’s theorcrafted brainfart, because it is absolutely not usable in any major form.

The warrior / guardian advantage are the perfect examples, though most of you fanboys can’t see it because you don’t want to. Those classes are infinitely easier to play and have plenty more options. Their skills harmonize better, they’re well-defined, and yet they have plenty of powerful variation. The argument for the necro is “no complaining! there’s this one build that works if you just get this one thing right.”

Trust me because I’m right. I’m just venting because it’s sad that necro was crap and then was godlike and now has been brought below par again, where we have “oh yeah, everyone knows those builds that the class was obviously built around won’t work.” And it’ll be months or years or never before it gets ironed out.

And kishter, thanks, I’ll try powermancer again… but that again just makes me sad.

I’m playing a necro — the class that can summon undead minions and access to many conditions and a bunch of vampiric traits. But what am I going to trait for? Power. Gross.

But nonetheless, I need a break from the Mozart playstyle that is Ele.

connvince.8061:

But nonetheless, I need a break from the Mozart playstyle that is Ele.

Mozart =/= smashing your face on keys repeatedly.

connvince.8061:

I’m surprised by the lack of ability to detect sarcasm or dramatic overstatement in some of you.

Also, some of you missed my point (flow – you in particular). So let me be very precise. I’m not actually saying people can’t make a necro work or that certain builds aren’t viable; I’m saying that those builds are not well conceived and are clunky. How can I make such a shockingly subjective claim? Play another class. You’ll see. Sure, several other classes have the same problem, but the necro is especially clunky.

Telling me to watch a video or that skill>class or try another build has nothing to do with this: 1.) the necro class’s traitlines have MANY glaring rabbit trails that they once intended for you to think about but then later second-guessed and nerfed into uselessness; and 2.) the working builds (those that have higher survivability via attrition or whatever other factor) are NOT the builds that the traits were centered around yet they dictate almost all of the balancing. 3.) The necro’s viable mechanics are therefore often clunky and do not synergize well outside of PvE.

The case in point is the vamp build. YES, I get it, it’s not viable. But it is exceedingly obvious that they at one point intended for it to be viable, created quite a few traits around it, created weapon effects that harness it, and made it synergize theoretically. But alas, it is a bygone relic of some dev’s theorcrafted brainfart, because it is absolutely not usable in any major form.

The warrior / guardian advantage are the perfect examples, though most of you fanboys can’t see it because you don’t want to. Those classes are infinitely easier to play and have plenty more options. Their skills harmonize better, they’re well-defined, and yet they have plenty of powerful variation. The argument for the necro is “no complaining! there’s this one build that works if you just get this one thing right.”

Trust me because I’m right. I’m just venting because it’s sad that necro was crap and then was godlike and now has been brought below par again, where we have “oh yeah, everyone knows those builds that the class was obviously built around won’t work.” And it’ll be months or years or never before it gets ironed out.

I think you’d be dead on if you titled the thread “Necro PvP lacks a definitive role.” But you came into the class subforum and said it wasn’t fun. What did you expect?

Not for nothing but your analysis and criticism about spvp would hold more weight if your experience was not just hotjoins.

Are necros frequently used in top level spvp?

They are not the most common class…. but there are people that have been able to play them at competitive levels.

ArchonWing.9480:

Are necros frequently used in top level spvp?

There are still a number of competitive players who use them. They are not unviable, just require your team to be pretty spot on.

No reason to criticize how I play my Elementalist. You’re just grasping to be mean at that point because you don’t like how I frame my ventilation. I’d rather we not resort to petty jabs at each other. You’re a talented and knowledgeable necro, and I’ve no interest in trying to pick a fight.

But there’s an undeniable event horizon of sorts for when a competent and competitive adult gamer can’t easily make a class work enjoyably in a simple majority of instances. Add in how choosing viable trait combinations and playstyles are difficult to the point of being prohibitive (this was the case with pre-patch ele for a long time), and you find yourself closer to my premise, which was that the class can be nigh-objectively classified as “not fun.”

I’m still not sure what you’re trying to say. You think not being able to make a class work “enjoyably” (there’s that paradox between subjectivity and objectivity again) in a “simple majority of instances” is not fun? You think the difficulty of meshing your trait selection to your playstyle in order to get the most out of it is not fun?

Barring every other statement made, I disagree with both of those. I enjoy difficulty. If something just easily flows and gets wins, it gets boring to me. Quickly. I’ve played Hambow in practice matches for a group of 5 that are dabbling in tPvP, and I’m almost already bored by it. Hambow is incredibly synergistic between the weapons, traits, runes, and sigils. It’s very flexible, and does its role extremely well. And it’s really boring to me.

One of my favorite things, actually, is taking something everyone says doesn’t work and making it work. I like pushing boundaries, not sitting inside them.

So I still don’t agree with your premise. I find Necro incredibly enjoyable for a large number of reasons.

“Trust me because I’m right”

“Most of you fanboys can’t see it because you don’t want to”

Why do you expect any strangers to listen to you after comments like these, anyway? Honestly, it sounds like you want to just coast through the game successfully. You already identified classes that let you come closer to doing that. You can play those, but the idea that you can talk to people who enjoy another class and try to tell them that they shouldn’t actually enjoy it because it isn’t enjoyable to you is just… what.

I would say it’s subjective. I have more fun on my necro than any of my other classes