Guild Wars 2

I apologize for my ignorance on this subject but i am a returning player that quit around 1 and a half year ago, so things may or may not have changed alot since then.

I intend to be playing the game again, and want to make a necromancer, but i’m worried of their ability when it comes to what i enjoy in mmorpg’s, namely late-game pve content (fractals, raids, dungeons).

When i last played, i saw people get kicked for playing a ranger, and my worries are if necromancer is in any way in that sort of state?
From what i remember necromancer was never really any huge use in PvE content. Are they now? I dont care if they are 10% behind a zerk warrior in dps or whatever min/max kind of thing, i just dont want people to sigh every time i join their team.

I want to be useful and to some extent needed, is that what necro is now? (keeping in mind the upcoming expansion) or is there no point in me making one.

Thanks in advance for any answers, and feel free to let me know if you need any more information.

Viable, not optimal.

Go for it

Warscythes.9307:

Viable, not optimal.

Go for it

But viable to the point where people have no issues with playing alongside a necro?
Also, any chance someone can tell me what the current meta is? Still full zerk teams? and what classes?

The DPS meta for dungeons and fractals most likely wont change (for +50 maybe, we don´t know yet). And yeah, I guess ppl still kick Necros from time to time. Dungeons just bore me to death at this point, so I pretty much only do fractals these days and I personally haven´t been kicked in ages.

For raids it´ll depend on your raid group/guild probably and whether or not they are ok with you playing Necro/Reaper. I don´t think people will be successfully completing raids with PuGs for quite some time (if they are “PuGable” at all), so don´t worry about that for now.

Don’t worry u won’t get kicked just don’t try to join ‘meta’ groups (ppl still think that ice bow is op so they try to pick 2 eles, lol.)

Viable just means that they are capable of competing the content, no more or less.

So in groups that are not played optimally necro can be rather effective since they self buff and debuff effectively. A necro can quite easily maintain full might stacks and 15 vulnerability stacks on a champion, so they will almost always perform close to their maximum potential. However, those effects in an optimised group are already covered: PS warrior keeps up aoe might, ele fire fields cover fury, vulnerability has all sorts of proc effects combined with glyph of storms in air means that vulnerability is covered. Once that’s done, classes that provide unique utility (mesmer portal and time warp, warrior banners, spotter/frost spirit) and just plain having greater coefficient per second and damage multipliers end up leaving necromancer behind.

That situation does not happen in most groups, people don’t run the full consumable set so your warrior does not put out as much might, vulnerability application is lacking, and people don’t stack and blast fire fields for fury as much, so for most peoples purposes, necromancer is absolutely fine, especially when you factor in their ability to bail people out of mistakes via transfusion.

+ Reaper is comming in next week. 20k+~ dps necro inc

Naustis.8510:

+ Reaper is comming in next week. 20k+~ dps necro inc

20k lol

Ilharn.6813:

Naustis.8510:

+ Reaper is comming in next week. 20k+~ dps necro inc

20k lol

Yeah 20k. Below 50% hp necro gravedigger spam is doing around 30k dps (each Gravedigger hits for 29-40k on raids). So even if necro is doing 10k dps before that, we still have 20k dps overall

Naustis.8510:

Ilharn.6813:

Naustis.8510:

+ Reaper is comming in next week. 20k+~ dps necro inc

20k lol

Yeah 20k. Below 50% hp necro gravedigger spam is doing around 30k dps (each Gravedigger hits for 29-40k on raids). So even if necro is doing 10k dps before that, we still have 20k dps overall

Screenshot^^

Ilharn.6813:

Naustis.8510:

Ilharn.6813:

Naustis.8510:

+ Reaper is comming in next week. 20k+~ dps necro inc

20k lol

Yeah 20k. Below 50% hp necro gravedigger spam is doing around 30k dps (each Gravedigger hits for 29-40k on raids). So even if necro is doing 10k dps before that, we still have 20k dps overall

Screenshot^^

In a party setting 20-33k+grave diggers are the norm.

20k-30k hits but no 30k dps because it needs 2 sec to perform 1 gravedigger.

Brayzz.6524:

20k-30k hits but no 30k dps because it needs 2 sec to perform 1 gravedigger.

Still if you can push 35-40k+ grave diggers its entirely possible and that’s just the single skill. Doesn’t count any wells nor nightfall so overall you will do quite a lot of damage per second.

When you factor in other spells its more like 17 to 18 thousand dps, possibly pushing up to 19 if the stars align and you take the absolute max damage build which provides no support whatsoever and all the buffs/debuffs are in place. That’s still really good though, sub 50% dps won’t be any issue for organised content, its going to be group support requirements that ends up being the sticking point.

Brayzz.6524:

20k-30k hits but no 30k dps because it needs 2 sec to perform 1 gravedigger.

1.5s, not 2 Btw. On raids we don’t have to support others. Necro can just focus on dps there. Support stuff leave for eles, guardiands, druids and heralds though

Naustis.8510:

Brayzz.6524:

20k-30k hits but no 30k dps because it needs 2 sec to perform 1 gravedigger.

1.5s, not 2

The after cast is longer than 0.25s. Last I measured it in total including the after cast gravedigger was at about 1.8s in total.

I’ll be honest with you, unless your a class with over-the-top DPS, your mostly going to have a horrid time getting into a Raid as a PUG, maybe not so much with doing it with your Guildies or Friends, but as we see mostly in Dungeons, it’s Warriors/Guardians/Mesmers/Eles, all rocking Full-Zerk, and if I had to guess, Raids will be no different when it comes to what the community wants for builds/gear/classes.

DarthInvadeHer.9861:

Warscythes.9307:

Viable, not optimal.

Go for it

But viable to the point where people have no issues with playing alongside a necro?
Also, any chance someone can tell me what the current meta is? Still full zerk teams? and what classes?

IMO the people that decline a necro are either:
a) Ignorant elitists
b) Misinformed
c) Willing to wait 20 minutes in a queue for a 15 minute run; instead of 5 minutes in queue for a 20 minute run.

Which unfortunately seems to include a majority of the PUG community.
The meta for dungeons/fractals is still full zerg, and there is little chance (or reason) to change that.

For raids things might shift a bit; but we’ll see.
I still have the vain hope that due to our class mechanic we’ll be able to push more aggressive gear without dying constantly. But if the rest of the raids is like the one we’ve seen in beta; I fear that won’t hold true.

Naustis.8510:

Brayzz.6524:

20k-30k hits but no 30k dps because it needs 2 sec to perform 1 gravedigger.

1.5s, not 2 Btw. On raids we don’t have to support others. Necro can just focus on dps there. Support stuff leave for eles, guardiands, druids and heralds though

Theres aftercast to factor in. So its closer to 2 seconds apparently.

Anyway with wells and nightfall + gravediggers, 20k dps below 50% could be pretty plausible to maintain. 40k gravediggers are pretty standard in proper groups.

It has been my general experience that the kind of people who would deny the necro a spot on their team are the kind of people I wouldn’t want to play with on any other class.

As far as current content goes, the necro is good at a lot of things that just aren’t needed (physical bulk, condi transferring, boon corruption, chill and cripple, etc). But content in the game changes. I wouldn’t be surprised to find reaper tanks becoming the norm.

Well, the other day I entered a team of level 38 fractals with my necro. They raged about how they wanted a “dps class”, after seeing my AP count of 18.5k they changed their mentalities and started to ask me politely to reroll the class. I pinged my full zerker ascended gear with max AR and they accepted it, probably I was more equipped than them.
The thing is the team had a few wipes over the run, with me the only one standing up and saving them, ON A FULL ZERKER GEAR! That’s the best thing of a necromancer if you ask me, we don’t lack dps at all but we are pretty durable and bring some cool things to the table if needed: CPC, Transfusion teleports, etc.
People like these need education, not ignorance. I bet that after that run they don’t see the necromancer the same way they did.

Edit: Just to be clear, I consider AP a stupid way of proving skill. I could be playing the game non-stop and still be really bad at dodging for example. But for them (and a huge number of players) seemed otherwise :/

I’d suggest you join a friendly PvE Guild then it won’t matter what class you roll, at least for dungeons + fractals

Necro might not be in the speedrun meta, but it’s definitely viable, I’ve even been in a successful 4 Necro + 1 Guard level 50 fractal just for fun

Necro has a pretty unique spot in Fractals atm with Corrosive Poison Cloud, this skill is the only projectile destruction which can deal with Old Tom is the Uncategorized Fractal and Mai Trin’s cannon phase

There are also pretty cool things you can do with our 2 teleports as well as the tankiness of Plague Form.

Necro is fine in fractals, or at least fine in the early fractals. My Necro has enough AR to play in groups up to 29 and she does pretty well. We’re in a much better spot now that Corrosive Poison Cloud destroys projectiles; lack of projectile destruction really held us back, but now that we have at least one skill that does that we have a much easier time contributing to the group’s survival.

You won’t be able to join teams looking for a metazerk comp, but I don’t like joining those even on my Ele (my other main, who has enough AR to get to 49). Too high-strung for my tastes.

Bysvyken.6235:

Necro has a pretty unique spot in Fractals atm with Corrosive Poison Cloud, this skill is the only projectile destruction which can deal with Old Tom is the Uncategorized Fractal and Mai Trin’s cannon phase

As a Necro main, this. Enjoy it while it lasts, though; I wouldn’t be the least bit surprised to see this go away in the next patch, or the patch after.

I enjoy the pocket math people do when ‘calculating dps’

Anet, dps meter pls. Pls anet

Kahrgan.7401:

I enjoy the pocket math people do when ‘calculating dps’

Anet, dps meter pls. Pls anet

Dps meter won’t help. That is because necro is doing like 5-10% less dps than top tier classes and noone cares that we have 3 times higher uptime in fights

Ps. But i still do love dps meters. It just makes the dps role to be more compete and fun, at least for me.

I think CPC will stay the same if not get better. Also, I always thought spectral wall should reflect. It just seems like an obvious function.

I’ve never had a problem with being kicked from groups. Of course, I avoid groups that specify meta professions in the LFG description.

As for viability, if you’re going into 40+ fractals I highly recommend the Unholy Sanctuary trait in death magic. It stops overflow damage unlike standard shroud, meaning if you’re hit with something stupid like 50k damage, it can absorb it.

After HoT Reaper will be AOE terminator, if there will be any content with lots of mobs that you can stack, Reaper will rock, crazy damage, unbelievable sustain.

With the footage I’ve been using, the aftercast on GS 2 is more than half a second but slightly less than 0.75. I average it out to 1.8-1.9s per gravedigger. In the vale fight I could not get above 33k with 25 might and 25 vuln. I was not using my favourite food (seaweed salad but am not sure that will make a difference because I don;t think GS 2 will count as moving?). You may be able to get up to the high 30’s though.

As such, Reaper’s can average 20k ish per second in the second half of a fight. They are much closer to 10-12k in the first half of a fight so their average dps is nowhere near 19-20k as some here are quoting. I played a Rev as well during the raids and their dps was clearly higher even without a dps meter it was easy to see.

I wasn’t sure about exact numbers and I don;t main necro but had a lot of fun with reaper and so made a thread a little while back asking people about Reaper dps. No one as of yet has shown me Reaper dps getting above the 15k/s ish mark on average.

Most people who felt reaper dps in PvE was high was because when reapers solo they can get 25 might and 25 vuln which by them self which makes them solo dps machines. In dungeons/ raids everyone will have those situations so things change.

@OP As mentioned, if you enjoy reaper/ necros go for it. You will have more fun playing with friends rather than PUGs though.

was not using my favourite food (seaweed salad but am not sure that will make a difference because I don;t think GS 2 will count as moving?).

It should do

They are much closer to 10-12k in the first half of a fight

It should be higher than this depending on your build and food.

DarthInvadeHer.9861:

Warscythes.9307:

Viable, not optimal.

Go for it

But viable to the point where people have no issues with playing alongside a necro?
Also, any chance someone can tell me what the current meta is? Still full zerk teams? and what classes?

I’m running fractals 50 with my guild on necro and nobody is against it. We sometimes run more then one necro and we do as good as when I play my guardian with randoms. If you can play your prof, you are fitting.

A profession being viable depends on your skill. Still, necro/reaper are subpar for PVE content currently.

Some super fast napkin comes with doing more damage in valk gear than zerks on reaper. Just forces some trait choices.

Sigmoid.7082:

Some super fast napkin comes with doing more damage in valk gear than zerks on reaper. Just forces some trait choices.

Oh? Is that with full valk and wurm runes? You are assuming fury/spotter/banner etc right?

Warscythes.9307:

Sigmoid.7082:

Some super fast napkin comes with doing more damage in valk gear than zerks on reaper. Just forces some trait choices.

Oh? Is that with full valk and wurm runes? You are assuming fury/spotter/banner etc right?

You can forget the constants because there are in each build, also power and ferocity are equal. As long as you can generate enough vuln ( easier in a party, also fury, spotter and banner cover more crit chance ) prec isnt a problem etc etc

Long story short vit has better scaling with utility consumables thus provides more benefit.

Valk and wurm runes wasnt top of my napkin was 4th out of the things i checked, % wise difference isnt HUGE, but one of the easiest to get and cheapest to run food wise.

Like i said it forces certain trait choices, namely decimate defences. Maybe a few others too.

What did you got then?

I often F50, usually daily.

I enjoy necro, but at F50 builds becomes less about what you can do for yourself, and more about how to max the whole group. Warriors not running empower ally or P. Strength often get kicked. Guardians with no blocks will get kicked. Ranger without spotter etc…in groups these are the icons you look for. In this regard necro has little to offer. With the changes to transfusion etc they can be handy at Shaman if someone goes down, but ultimately in good conditions no one goes down. They can pull conditions off the group, but so can guardian with a single shout. This is the issue with necro that most teams have. They struggle to find meaningful ways to support and up lift the group.
Warriors-melee bulk, banners, keep might stacks at 25
Guardian-reflects/blocks/vulnerability on target/group quickness
Mesmer-reflects/combo fields
engi/thef- mass stealth/blinds and limited reflects.
Ele’s-perma fury/ PbAoE dps/Aura’s
Rangers-Group precision/group dmg buff/reflects/fire fields

Even if reaper could out DPS all other professions, they still struggle to provide group buffing. The most beneficial role they could do would be well siphons/vampirism for group health, but even then everyone needs to be stacked on the necro and its situational.

If your like me, keep your necro and quietly know how good a necro can be. If your interested in speed dungeons and high level fractals. Roll a warrior/Guard/ele/Thief for 100% spots, and engineer for 99% spot on teams.

Necros are quite handy in fractals, there are lots of tricks we have to make things easy, and can support/fill in for other roles fairly well. Corrosive Poison Cloud getting buffed to block projectiles definitely solidified a role after blood magic was given some totally unique utility (group shared Life Siphoning and Teleporting downed allies to safety, as well as preventing them from bleeding out).

You still want to make sure you have might mostly covered but I never have issues finding a group. They’ll often ask me to swap but I kind of blow them off and we always do just fine :P

Sigmoid.7082:

was not using my favourite food (seaweed salad but am not sure that will make a difference because I don;t think GS 2 will count as moving?).

It should do.

Seaweed salad doesn’t work with moves like warrior’s rush because for the actual damage component, the warrior is stationary. The same goes for a thief using dagger storm, he maybe rotating as a whirl finisher, but unless you move in dagger storm you don;t get the % bonus.

Given Reaper’s Gravedigger you don;t move (just spin/ whirl finish), if it’s like other stationary whirl finishers, you won’t get the dps modifier. If you can move, then you will get it, I didn;t test that but looking at some other thread they say you can. Will have to check this weekend.

Edit: I’ve checked my footage from BWE 3 and I can’t find any where I could move whilst Grave digger was landing. I am able to dodge roll and cancel the action, but for the damage component it appear you are stationary. STill, will test it when I get a chance.

Terra.8571:

Sigmoid.7082:

was not using my favourite food (seaweed salad but am not sure that will make a difference because I don;t think GS 2 will count as moving?).

It should do.

Seaweed salad doesn’t work with moves like warrior’s rush because for the actual damage component, the warrior is stationary. The same goes for a thief using dagger storm, he maybe rotating as a whirl finisher, but unless you move in dagger storm you don;t get the % bonus.

Given Reaper’s Gravedigger you don;t move (just spin/ whirl finish), if it’s like other stationary whirl finishers, you won’t get the dps modifier. If you can move, then you will get it, I didn;t test that but looking at some other thread they say you can. Will have to check this weekend.

Edit: I’ve checked my footage from BWE 3 and I can’t find any where I could move whilst Grave digger was landing. I am able to dodge roll and cancel the action, but for the damage component it appear you are stationary. STill, will test it when I get a chance.

It doesn’t work with rush because your character doesn’t move for the swing. They are locked in place. Grave digger works like whirling wrath for guardians. You can move for the entire cast of the skill butbst a reduced move speed. At no point do you have to be stationary to cast it.

“Bring the players not the class” <- Do you remember?
Necro was, is and will be viable for every content.

“Meta” is just an invention of wannabe elitists and classists. There’s no need for elitism at all. The players who guess they are should play another game where they have to be elitists – and then they recognize they aren’t such hardcore they thought.

Ilharn.6813:

“Bring the players not the class” <- Do you remember?
Necro was, is and will be viable for every content.

“Meta” is just an invention of wannabe elitists and classists. There’s no need for elitism at all. The players who guess they are should play another game where they have to be elitists – and then they recognize they aren’t such hardcore they thought.

I disaggree with the introduction off enrage timers a minimum amount of dps is required while still bringing the other stuff required to counter the mechanics of the boss/encounter. Right now there is a reasonable amount of margin which can be filled by bringing supoptimal builds or suboptimal player skills. But with the introduction with more difficult raid encounters/bosses this margin will shrink until it can not cover the loss by bringing suboptimal builds. At that point classes with no optimal builds are simply not viable no matter how skilled the players behind it are.

Tim.6450:

Ilharn.6813:

“Bring the players not the class” <- Do you remember?
Necro was, is and will be viable for every content.

“Meta” is just an invention of wannabe elitists and classists. There’s no need for elitism at all. The players who guess they are should play another game where they have to be elitists – and then they recognize they aren’t such hardcore they thought.

I disaggree with the introduction off enrage timers a minimum amount of dps is required while still bringing the other stuff required to counter the mechanics of the boss/encounter. Right now there is a reasonable amount of margin which can be filled by bringing supoptimal builds or suboptimal player skills. But with the introduction with more difficult raid encounters/bosses this margin will shrink until it can not cover the loss by bringing suboptimal builds. At that point classes with no optimal builds are simply not viable no matter how skilled the players behind it are.

q.e.d.

I run my necro in f50 everyday. Full dire condi. Here’s my observation.

1. Perma weakness increases team survival rate dramatically. Basically if i get caged during hammer, my team often starts to get wiped. I know that shouldn’t happen but the point is, my nec has significant influence on the run. This on top of of vampiric aura and good control over life transfer.

2. There are many occasions when the team has bad class combo like 2 theifs, a ranger and a mes. My necro was always the last one standing or kiting bosses while the rest of the team was reentering the fight (rezzing, healing, etc) such as in lava stage. With that, the team could finish the fight instead of failing the whole thing.

3. I’m almost 100% tank uptime in fotm. Hammer boss always fllows me, the trio in harpy always follow me, I can face off against mossman etc. while the rest of the team was focusing on dmg. Or I can turn to plague and pull half of mons during Ascalon last stage, then spam weakness and blind so team can clear mobs quickly in 2 waves.

Those are just some observations I see everyday during my runs. If you’re talking about setting up the “most” optimal team, yes nec isnt the right choice. But it is still an effective class within reasonable scope when played right. Maybe it just depends on the person who plays the necro. But I always form my own fotm party with pugs. And I never ever tolerate the meta poopheads because I seriously don’t care about them. I had so many perfect runs without guards wars and ele before and I’m sure I can do it again and again and again.

It’s the player, not the class For example, the class that makes me cringe the most when forming fotm party is thief. Most often than not they just become rallybots and that’s bad because it basically makes everything 4-manning. Their range sucks and they can’t do melee cuz they’re gonna get one shot. Their only team support is stealth which is super one dimensional and often get nullified by boss AoE. But do I kick thieves? No. Not until it’s apparent that they are really holding the team back. Being downed all the time also increases the chance of teammates getting killed. I was with many zerk GDs who mocked others and praise zerk build while he was literally dead on the floor, getting eaten by grawls in under 3 seconds while the rest of the team was still fighting (I know, the self awareness in some people is very hard to find).

Again, player not class and Dire necro carry ftw

I pug F50 pretty much every day on my zerk necro and have not had many issues. Yesterday we had 2 necros in the party with no problems.
I don’t join the groups that mention Meta, as they usually contain people who think they are better than they are.

Ilharn.6813:

Tim.6450:

Ilharn.6813:

“Bring the players not the class” <- Do you remember?
Necro was, is and will be viable for every content.

“Meta” is just an invention of wannabe elitists and classists. There’s no need for elitism at all. The players who guess they are should play another game where they have to be elitists – and then they recognize they aren’t such hardcore they thought.

I disaggree with the introduction off enrage timers a minimum amount of dps is required while still bringing the other stuff required to counter the mechanics of the boss/encounter. Right now there is a reasonable amount of margin which can be filled by bringing supoptimal builds or suboptimal player skills. But with the introduction with more difficult raid encounters/bosses this margin will shrink until it can not cover the loss by bringing suboptimal builds. At that point classes with no optimal builds are simply not viable no matter how skilled the players behind it are.

q.e.d.

Could you clarify what you mean with that? Q.E.D. means that you have proven what you want to proof but there are so many things that can be proven in your initial post unless you mean that my post proves al your made statements.

Tim.6450:

Ilharn.6813:

Tim.6450:

Ilharn.6813:

“Bring the players not the class” <- Do you remember?
Necro was, is and will be viable for every content.

“Meta” is just an invention of wannabe elitists and classists. There’s no need for elitism at all. The players who guess they are should play another game where they have to be elitists – and then they recognize they aren’t such hardcore they thought.

I disaggree with the introduction off enrage timers a minimum amount of dps is required while still bringing the other stuff required to counter the mechanics of the boss/encounter. Right now there is a reasonable amount of margin which can be filled by bringing supoptimal builds or suboptimal player skills. But with the introduction with more difficult raid encounters/bosses this margin will shrink until it can not cover the loss by bringing suboptimal builds. At that point classes with no optimal builds are simply not viable no matter how skilled the players behind it are.

q.e.d.

Could you clarify what you mean with that? Q.E.D. means that you have proven what you want to proof but there are so many things that can be proven in your initial post unless you mean that my post proves al your made statements.

It means that we don’t know we have to deal maximum dmg.

Ilharn.6813:

Tim.6450:

Ilharn.6813:

Tim.6450:

Ilharn.6813:

“Bring the players not the class” <- Do you remember?
Necro was, is and will be viable for every content.

“Meta” is just an invention of wannabe elitists and classists. There’s no need for elitism at all. The players who guess they are should play another game where they have to be elitists – and then they recognize they aren’t such hardcore they thought.

I disaggree with the introduction off enrage timers a minimum amount of dps is required while still bringing the other stuff required to counter the mechanics of the boss/encounter. Right now there is a reasonable amount of margin which can be filled by bringing supoptimal builds or suboptimal player skills. But with the introduction with more difficult raid encounters/bosses this margin will shrink until it can not cover the loss by bringing suboptimal builds. At that point classes with no optimal builds are simply not viable no matter how skilled the players behind it are.

q.e.d.

Could you clarify what you mean with that? Q.E.D. means that you have proven what you want to proof but there are so many things that can be proven in your initial post unless you mean that my post proves al your made statements.

It means that we don’t know we have to deal maximum dmg.

Well you are right, probably we will never have to deal 100% of the maximum dps of the optimal group in the content it is playing, in any content that will be released. But I never stated that I just spoke that we have a minimum dps required (due to enrage timers). By substracting the dps required by the enrage timer from dps of the optimal play/comp combination we receive a margin. This margin is the amount of dps we can lose due to suboptimal play or suboptimal builds.
I assume that more difficult content will have a lower margin then easier content. This is an assumption and can be debated but I consider this logical since you shouldn’t be allowed to make more mistakes in more difficult content. So if the margin becomes so small that it only allows the minimum errors made by players then only optimal builds can be be taken.
Of course this all theoretical but if a class has no builds that with optimal play can stay in the margin then it is not viable. If a class in its best build with perfect play brings a 5% loss to the group and the margin is 3%, well the class is not viable. The smaller this margin is (read the more difficult the content), the more likely that such situations occur.

Yep but i guess they haven’t calculated timer for 10 ele, engi or whatever dps-racers with optimal builds and gameplay. So it will be possible for all classes to give its cents to the success

Ilharn.6813:

Yep but i guess they haven’t calculated timer for 10 ele, engi or whatever dps-racers with optimal builds and gameplay. So it will be possible for all classes to give its cents to the success

They don’t have to calculate that, they just have to design more significantly difficult content eventually they reach the margin that excludes certain classes. The more equal classes the less likely this is to occur.