Guild Wars 2

On the latest patchnotes, there was this on balancing:

Thief

Thieves are the masters of mobility, stealth and high single target damage. They can be very fragile if you counter their stealth with area of effects or large stacks of conditions, but they trade this fragility in order to have some of the highest burst damage in the game. They are able to help allies through traps, venoms and the mobility to flank most encounters.

Necro

The necro boasts the highest natural health of all the caster classes, and also has death shroud to extend that life total even higher. While they don’t have some of the escape or damage reduction capabilities that other classes boast, they do have a lot of ways to win attrition fights. They have access to poison on multiple weapons, they are able to combine condition damage with raw damage, and they have multiple disables to interrupt enemy skills. Necomancers also have multiple movement disabling abilities, while allows them to chase down enemies who are low on health.

I mostly play WvW, with power/toughness/vitality gear and 20/25/25 curses/blood magic/death magic (vampiric). I have 31k hp and ~2800 armor (48k hp in plague form).

So with that said, I agree that the Thief should be boasting the highest single target damage. Fair enough. But if they eat through the highest hp pools in game in 2, 3 seconds… how is that balanced?

It would be ok if they didn’t vanish every other second, re-appearing clean of all dots, healed an all… there would actually be a fight. Now it’s just running around trying to slow, fear, weaken… but to no effect. They press the magic button number 2 and vanish, rinse and repeat.

Shouldn’t the highest damage in the game be a function of the average hp / armor in game? Lets say on average the hp is 20k (I don’t know), the highest crit should never be higher or equal to something like 15-20% of that. I’m not taking into account toughness here, because that should be a choice for further dmg reduction, not a necessity. This would also imply that the above is based on crit/power builds.

Thoughts? Suggestions?

tell me about it 2.8k armor have 30k hp. and i get 3 shotted by a thief literally 3 shotted its pretty rediculous plus they gain might in stealth aswell. i can barely even fight them because every second bam back into stealth its rediculous they need to fix this culling issue like asap i mean push this to the top of the list i really dont even wanna pvp anymore because its thief infested literally. I know they get the reveal debuff but no you barely even see it because by the time they do the backstab again back into stealth yet again because of the culling. so basically thier is no kitten reveal at all.

Once I suffered 40k damages in 5 seconds with Spectral Armor up, nothing strange here, don’t try to show the problem in the Thief section or you’ll be eaten alive… pirhanas, not ppl they are..

Just consider that if you don’t have 2k toughness you’ll be getting from 5 to10k crits in a row.. and whatever it won’t stop him from dealing you a lot of burst damage..

The reality is that Thief is OP and Necro isn’t; the reality is that whatever you have to adapt the system.
Some Base hints are having more than 1000 toughness every time in Pvp, trying to kite him with snares, slow, chills, immobilize effects (staff will be helpful) and know when to absorb the burst with Death Shroud (consider that engaging a thief without full Death Shroud it’s often an hard game).
Usually when a thief opens on you with Steal and Fear, try to go into Death Shroud and fear him away, or send him the fear with Plague Signet.
Usually when he Shadow Refuge try bombing the area with your Marks (depending on the situation it would be better if you keep mark 4 and 5 for the later fight) and Life Transfer..

After that there is the counter strategy for every possible build in the metagame.. and a lot of painful experience.

Try looking for some Pvp guide, usually there is explained the strategy in better details.

In my experience with a soldier/knight/carrion equipped S/D-Staff Necro, this is by far the character I can handle thieves most easily out of 3 classes I play in wvw (others being engie and mesmer); I died like twice or thrice in 2 months in random 1vs1s against thieves, sometimes it was a close fight, much more often they ended up dead or shortbowing/stealthing their way out of combat.
Using Blood is power, Corrupt Boon and GreenAwkwardTrailofSwiftness (or what’s the name, anyway swapped for that speed signet since the buff it got, although I haven’t been playing my necro since then); golem for a free knockdown. Corrupt works wonders if the thief is one of those that pops that awful lot of buffs, or anyway if he goes in Daggerstorm to scare him away and stop being silly. GreenThing for a blink in the first 8 seconds and some life force gain; I agree with Luke about fearing him back during that nasty Skull fear or bombing the shadow refuge. Marks (traited for size in my case) are good anyway to keep him under pressure when the thief stealths outside Shadow Ref and is walking around – or to boobytrap your position if you’re just expecting his next attack and you don’t really know where he might be.
Really, I don’t want to pose as a pr0 or anything but when I was actively playing my necro in wvw I used to survive well enough in worst cases. Still, that pair of backstabbers managed anyway to instagib me into oblivion munching through my 26-27k hp like thin air. Going into DS won’t save you anyway if your actual hp pool has been already eaten away. :\

Thieves are ridiculous right now. Yesterday in WvW we had 15 people literally chasing a thief around inside of our home borderland garrison for 20 minutes after they failed to take it from us. We built the walls back up so they couldn’t get back in, but a thief and a mesmer got trapped inside. We killed the mesmer no problem, but the thief was trying to res the mesmer inside the garrison so they could portal a group of people back inside.

We never actually killed the thief. Despite there being approx 15 of us chasing him around Benny Hill style, the thief kept stealthing in and out so much that we could never catch him. Every time he’d reappear he’d be back at full health, completely wiped of all conditions. A random warrior some how managed to knock him off the wall, and out of the garrison, with a lucky Earthshaker + Staggering Blow combo. During this 20 minute long chase, the thief also managed to down several people. Never actually finished anyone off, but even with that many people chasing him around, he could still do enough damage to people to put them down.

SerMahad.4813:

In my experience with a soldier/knight/carrion equipped S/D-Staff Necro, this is by far the character I can handle thieves most easily out of 3 classes I play in wvw (others being engie and mesmer); I died like twice or thrice in 2 months in random 1vs1s against thieves, sometimes it was a close fight, much more often they ended up dead or shortbowing/stealthing their way out of combat.
Using Blood is power, Corrupt Boon and GreenAwkwardTrailofSwiftness (or what’s the name, anyway swapped for that speed signet since the buff it got, although I haven’t been playing my necro since then); golem for a free knockdown. Corrupt works wonders if the thief is one of those that pops that awful lot of buffs, or anyway if he goes in Daggerstorm to scare him away and stop being silly. GreenThing for a blink in the first 8 seconds and some life force gain; I agree with Luke about fearing him back during that nasty Skull fear or bombing the shadow refuge. Marks (traited for size in my case) are good anyway to keep him under pressure when the thief stealths outside Shadow Ref and is walking around – or to boobytrap your position if you’re just expecting his next attack and you don’t really know where he might be.
Really, I don’t want to pose as a pr0 or anything but when I was actively playing my necro in wvw I used to survive well enough in worst cases. Still, that pair of backstabbers managed anyway to instagib me into oblivion munching through my 26-27k hp like thin air. Going into DS won’t save you anyway if your actual hp pool has been already eaten away. :\

Well, I’m full invaders set with Soldier’s runes (5x). I’m glad with the necro in most duels. I win a fair amount, I loose others as well, but always after a decent fight. I’m using dagger/warhorn & staff. Consume conditions, Well of Darkness , BiP and Corrupt Boon. That works for most duels, but against Thieves it’s all rendered useless.

Don’t get me wrong, the necro is great in WvW. Awesome survival skills and great AoE dot-damage. Great against professions that are using ‘boon’-builds like the guardian or the elementalist lately. Just saying that it doesn’t make sense to have the highest hp in game get melted in 2 or 3 seconds. That tells me the dmg output from the Thief on the one hand is either too high, or the hp pools in general are too low. But it don’t believe in the latter…

Luke.4562:

Once I suffered 40k damages in 5 seconds with Spectral Armor up, nothing strange here, don’t try to show the problem in the Thief section or you’ll be eaten alive… pirhanas, not ppl they are..

Just consider that if you don’t have 2k toughness you’ll be getting from 5 to10k crits in a row.. and whatever it won’t stop him from dealing you a lot of burst damage..

The reality is that Thief is OP and Necro isn’t; the reality is that whatever you have to adapt the system.
Some Base hints are having more than 1000 toughness every time in Pvp, trying to kite him with snares, slow, chills, immobilize effects (staff will be helpful) and know when to absorb the burst with Death Shroud (consider that engaging a thief without full Death Shroud it’s often an hard game).
Usually when a thief opens on you with Steal and Fear, try to go into Death Shroud and fear him away, or send him the fear with Plague Signet.
Usually when he Shadow Refuge try bombing the area with your Marks (depending on the situation it would be better if you keep mark 4 and 5 for the later fight) and Life Transfer..

After that there is the counter strategy for every possible build in the metagame.. and a lot of painful experience.

Try looking for some Pvp guide, usually there is explained the strategy in better details.

Just a question, did the Thief have bountiful theft traited? It steals a couple of boons when you use steal, therefore you wouldn’t have had protection up

Also some of these damages are greatly exaggerated. I play both Necromancer and Thief, and have troubles countering the other on neither. In-fact as I mainly play the condition thief, Necromancer’s are hell (stop putting my own conditions back on me haha). If you want tips I may make a thread somewhen, as I’ve now played both classes quite a lot.

use hybrid builds guys power + condition damage….you can build up toughness and HP but thieves will eat you anyway so its better to try to kill them fast than slowly dying imo…

Kravick.4906:

Thieves are ridiculous right now. Yesterday in WvW we had 15 people literally chasing a thief around inside of our home borderland garrison for 20 minutes after they failed to take it from us. We built the walls back up so they couldn’t get back in, but a thief and a mesmer got trapped inside. We killed the mesmer no problem, but the thief was trying to res the mesmer inside the garrison so they could portal a group of people back inside.

We never actually killed the thief. Despite there being approx 15 of us chasing him around Benny Hill style, the thief kept stealthing in and out so much that we could never catch him. Every time he’d reappear he’d be back at full health, completely wiped of all conditions. A random warrior some how managed to knock him off the wall, and out of the garrison, with a lucky Earthshaker + Staggering Blow combo. During this 20 minute long chase, the thief also managed to down several people. Never actually finished anyone off, but even with that many people chasing him around, he could still do enough damage to people to put them down.

untill they fix the culling issue have fun with thiefs they will abuse it lol thats the only issue that thier is right now i dont care about thier burst trust me i can one shot ppl with mindwrack just as easily as a backstab i just care about them actually bieng revealed when they hit some 1 not bieng revealed for half a second then back into stealth it just makes the fight pretty much stright out on thier terms when they fix that all will be good. you can actually fight a thief…..

ANet just has to improve Armors effect (pvp/wvw only) and make it 200-300% more effective for all classes that would slow down burst DPS and give everyone a chance to react in PvP/WvW.

for example:

2500 armor today = +30% resist
2500 armor after = +50%-80% resist

just fictive values….

fights woule become more interesting that way and there wouldnt be any 2-3 second or instant kills anymore.

PvP/WvW fights should never last only 2-3 seconds or even less in my opinion, in no game that should happen. its cooler if the fights lasts a bit and players can use their skills instead of beeing instant killed.

The ability to down someone in 2-3 seconds just needs to be removed, period. Who the hell thinks that’s engaging PvP? There’s nothing you can effin do! I’ve been nice and polite in my various posts here, but kitten ANet, wth is that crap? I’m dead before I can even get off a heal or the blinding well. Not even 15 minutes ago I was in WvW in DS – full bar – and suddenly, BAM! I’m out of DS and in the down state because of a single thief. Wtf?

xev.9476:

The ability to down someone in 2-3 seconds just needs to be removed, period. Who the hell thinks that’s engaging PvP? There’s nothing you can effin do! I’ve been nice and polite in my various posts here, but kitten ANet, wth is that crap? I’m dead before I can even get off a heal or the blinding well. Not even 15 minutes ago I was in WvW in DS – full bar – and suddenly, BAM! I’m out of DS and in the down state because of a single thief. Wtf?

i have a L80 thief and i havent played him since weeks but yes i can down lets say a Ranger in under 5 sec ignoring his pet and concentrating on him. if i am mean i blind them both before and watch him jumping around while he dies…….. he wont get a hit off ……. fair ? no its not but its fun for some people. i did it a few times and had a bad feeling about it. parked Thief and leveled Necro, Ranger, mesmer and Guardian instead.

Tuccos.8592:

xev.9476:

The ability to down someone in 2-3 seconds just needs to be removed, period. Who the hell thinks that’s engaging PvP? There’s nothing you can effin do! I’ve been nice and polite in my various posts here, but kitten ANet, wth is that crap? I’m dead before I can even get off a heal or the blinding well. Not even 15 minutes ago I was in WvW in DS – full bar – and suddenly, BAM! I’m out of DS and in the down state because of a single thief. Wtf?

i have a L80 thief and i havent played him since weeks but yes i can down lets say a Ranger in under 5 sec ignoring his pet and concentrating on him. if i am mean i blind them both before and watch him jumping around while he dies…….. he wont get a hit off ……. fair ? no its not but its fun for some people. i did it a few times and had a bad feeling about it. parked Thief and leveled Necro, Ranger, mesmer and Guardian instead.

I have an 80 everything except warrior and engineer, and I’ve been cycling through the various professions in WvW just trying to find a build/prof that can successfully and consistently counter thieves. So far, I’ve been most successful on my necromancer only because I lay down the #2 mark every time it’s off CD. Once I see the mark triggered by something invisible, I quickly lay down all my marks in the surrounding area and pop DS. Only once have I actually killed a thief, but I usually succeed in convincing him/her that I’m not worth the trouble. If ever I’m caught off guard for a moment, though… I’m eating dirt.

I do find that level of vigilance rather engaging, but there are many – many – scenarios in which it’s just not possible, like when a thief stealths behind enemy lines in a zerg to gank all of your back lines. I can save DS and a defensive utility or two and there’s still absolutely nothing I can do. I don’t think that’s an l2p issue at all – I think it’s bad design.

xev.9476:

I do find that level of vigilance rather engaging, but there are many – many – scenarios in which it’s just not possible, like when a thief stealths behind enemy lines in a zerg to gank all of your back lines. I can save DS and a defensive utility or two and there’s still absolutely nothing I can do. I don’t think that’s an l2p issue at all – I think it’s bad design.

It’s not bad design. Thieves are a class that is incredibly good at 1v1 burst. That’s like, their primary specialty.

And so they run up, they gank you, you go down. Your team chases them off or the stomp you. Either way, if your zerg wins they stand you back up at the end of the engagement and nothing changes. Random ganks are not how WvW is won, except in very very close races where supply becomes that crucial.

Thieves are basically overrated in WvW. They pick one person off then run away and that one person screams “Unfair!” Meanwhile, they COULD have actually been helping their zerg out. Most don’t. They just like selfish kills.

KirinDave.6451:

xev.9476:

I do find that level of vigilance rather engaging, but there are many – many – scenarios in which it’s just not possible, like when a thief stealths behind enemy lines in a zerg to gank all of your back lines. I can save DS and a defensive utility or two and there’s still absolutely nothing I can do. I don’t think that’s an l2p issue at all – I think it’s bad design.

It’s not bad design. Thieves are a class that is incredibly good at 1v1 burst. That’s like, their primary specialty.

And so they run up, they gank you, you go down. Your team chases them off or the stomp you. Either way, if your zerg wins they stand you back up at the end of the engagement and nothing changes. Random ganks are not how WvW is won, except in very very close races where supply becomes that crucial.

Thieves are basically overrated in WvW. They pick one person off then run away and that one person screams “Unfair!” Meanwhile, they COULD have actually been helping their zerg out. Most don’t. They just like selfish kills.

It’s bad design as far I’m concerned, since I’m not particularly interested in dying before I can get a single skill off. You seem to find it acceptable because, perhaps, a single death doesn’t mean much in the grand scheme of things. To me, though, it means a good bit. It’s irritating and not enjoyable. I’d prefer to be outskilled or outzerged, not just suddenly dead.

1v1 burst is one thing, 1v1 instant death is quite another. No, no, I think the design is quite stupid.

it doesn’t matter what build u run, interrupt the glass cannon with ds fear or mark, if he is stupid enough to stay after that it won’t take more than 15 seconds to down him.

…and Necros are one of the best classes against thieves

If it’s any consolation I GUARANTEE that thieves will be getting a nerf in the very short future. The community over there swarms anyone who even suggests that something might be a little out of whack between thieves and other classes. It’s obvious to anyone that doesn’t play a thief that things aren’t working as intended. I’d ask that some of them should wake up and suggest some things to balance it out, or they are gonna log in after a patch and find out they have been cut off at the knees.

Modkip.7681:

Just deny them the opportunity to use cloak and dagger as much as you can.
It’s their only stealth that has a short enough cooldown to be spammable and it requires them to be in melee range.
Don’t get me wrong, it’s much(x100000) easier said than done, but this is absolutely key in countering any X/D thief and it just so happens that both popular thief builds have dagger offhands.

The only problems I really have with the thief class are the stealth rendering/culling problem (horrendous in WvW) and the fact that the steal skill has no indicator that it is about to be cast. It should be telegraphed somehow so that there is a least a sliver of a chance to avoid it since right now it’s a free combo opener.

a dagger/pistol thief can spam their number 5 attack + their number 2 attack to permastealth, along with blinding powder, shadow refuge, and their healing skill. I know because I rerolled to see what all the hubub was about permastealth. 95% of the time I can stay in stealth especially considering I have it traited that i gain initiative in stealth and I gain 2 initiative for every signet I activate, along with a couple other traits to increase stealth time and such.

been on my thief for the last 2 hours in spvp never died to a necro yet xD S/D build is OP as crap and i can just lock you down constantly so you cant even move lol

Its just amazing that this class takes barely any skill at all i literally auto attack ppl to death like literally its hilarious. hitting 4ks+ with just an auto attack. flanking strike does like a backstab for me 9k+ lol. they really need to balance this out even a bunker i can take out fairly quickly Dazing his tail constantly so he cant use skills xD

I have been away for a few weeks because my main pc rig is dead so i am out of practice in wvwvw but any good necro would not die to a thief 1 vs 1 in most cases. Nor will we be able to stop them from escaping which is the issue. Unless we can kill the thief it is not a win in my eyes. The culling thing with the stealth will be fixed someday and that will even the playing field with many players.

xev.9476:

It’s bad design as far I’m concerned, since I’m not particularly interested in dying before I can get a single skill off. You seem to find it acceptable because, perhaps, a single death doesn’t mean much in the grand scheme of things. To me, though, it means a good bit. It’s irritating and not enjoyable. I’d prefer to be outskilled or outzerged, not just suddenly dead.

1v1 burst is one thing, 1v1 instant death is quite another. No, no, I think the design is quite stupid.

See, this is one of those “design decisions.” WvW is not fair. If you want fair, you want sPvP. WvW is all about tactics and numbers and terrain control. It’s the very opposite of fair, and Anet has only recently taken any steps to stop total map domination in perpetuity. In WvW the power gap between geared and ungeared players is huge becuase they use the PvE formulas which are tuned to allow players to take on monsters with enormous stat budgets.

If you want “fair”, then sPvP and tPvP are where you should go. You can’t generally instaburst someone unless you’re using a berzerker’s amulet and the target is too (e.g., one thief gets the drop on another).

And in general, unless you’re upleveled or undergeared you shouldn’t be losing 30k of health in a burst. The burst is generally around 5 hits, and if it involves heartseeker spam then you can really mess it up by dodging even a single heartseeker. Thieves are on a very tight initiative budget (even if they trait for more). Dodging a heartseeker (or even better, a C&D) will completely ruin them.

KirinDave.6451:

And in general, unless you’re upleveled or undergeared you shouldn’t be losing 30k of health in a burst. The burst is generally around 5 hits, and if it involves heartseeker spam then you can really mess it up by dodging even a single heartseeker. Thieves are on a very tight initiative budget (even if they trait for more). Dodging a heartseeker (or even better, a C&D) will completely ruin them.

Except that you DO lose that much health, even in gear that would be considered tanky. I’m starting to doubt the validity of your claims based on that fact alone. Thieves, ATM, do insane burst damage, even to people in full soldiers gear. Combined with the current culling issues (thieves can do damage to you while still appearing stealthed), I seriously doubt you have any idea whats actually going on.

Kravick.4906:

Except that you DO lose that much health, even in gear that would be considered tanky. I’m starting to doubt the validity of your claims based on that fact alone. Thieves, ATM, do insane burst damage, even to people in full soldiers gear. Combined with the current culling issues (thieves can do damage to you while still appearing stealthed), I seriously doubt you have any idea whats actually going on.

You can validate what I’m talking about in sPvP for a basis, and then use WvW videos on youtube for other reference. What exactly are we talking about for “burst” here? 1 second? 4 seconds? 30k is a lot of health.

The only time I’ve had this seem to happen was with culling issues: a culled thief’s damage can render unreliably and this can give the appearance of a much bigger burst because they’ve actually had longer to work on you than you realized.

KirinDave.6451:

The only time I’ve had this seem to happen was with culling issues: a culled thief’s damage can render unreliably and this can give the appearance of a much bigger burst because they’ve actually had longer to work on you than you realized.

Yeah you’re not aware of whats actually happening. I figured as much.

KirinDave.6451:

See, this is one of those “design decisions.” WvW is not fair. If you want fair, you want sPvP. WvW is all about tactics and numbers and terrain control. It’s the very opposite of fair, and Anet has only recently taken any steps to stop total map domination in perpetuity.

I don’t even know what that means; it seems like an incoherent thought that just sounds nice to say. If by “fair” we mean the opportunity for opposing teams/players a fighting chance to win particular battles, engagements, or maps, then WvW simply has to be “fair” in a big way. My issue is that with thieves, there is no fighting chance for some professions in many different scenarios. It’s not an issue of tactics, it’s an issue of game mechanics: thieves have the ability to disable and spike down my 27k necro + DS in less than 4 seconds, and then completely vanish, regain any health loss and initiative, and do it all over again in a matter of seconds.

Emmm…did someone use warhorn skill5 and run to hug thife when use spector bash his head?

Derms.4758:

On the latest patchnotes, there was this on balancing:

Thief

Thieves are the masters of mobility, stealth and high single target damage. They can be very fragile if you counter their stealth with area of effects or large stacks of conditions, but they trade this fragility in order to have some of the highest burst damage in the game. They are able to help allies through traps, venoms and the mobility to flank most encounters.

Necro

The necro boasts the highest natural health of all the caster classes, and also has death shroud to extend that life total even higher. While they don’t have some of the escape or damage reduction capabilities that other classes boast, they do have a lot of ways to win attrition fights. They have access to poison on multiple weapons, they are able to combine condition damage with raw damage, and they have multiple disables to interrupt enemy skills. Necomancers also have multiple movement disabling abilities, while allows them to chase down enemies who are low on health.

I mostly play WvW, with power/toughness/vitality gear and 20/25/25 curses/blood magic/death magic (vampiric). I have 31k hp and ~2800 armor (48k hp in plague form).

So with that said, I agree that the Thief should be boasting the highest single target damage. Fair enough. But if they eat through the highest hp pools in game in 2, 3 seconds… how is that balanced?

It would be ok if they didn’t vanish every other second, re-appearing clean of all dots, healed an all… there would actually be a fight. Now it’s just running around trying to slow, fear, weaken… but to no effect. They press the magic button number 2 and vanish, rinse and repeat.

Shouldn’t the highest damage in the game be a function of the average hp / armor in game? Lets say on average the hp is 20k (I don’t know), the highest crit should never be higher or equal to something like 15-20% of that. I’m not taking into account toughness here, because that should be a choice for further dmg reduction, not a necessity. This would also imply that the above is based on crit/power builds.

Thoughts? Suggestions?

Its not that bad, if a thief jumps me, either with that elite venom or not i pop DS and fear them away, that gives me time to dodgeroll and root or daze. If DS is empty or at Cooldown i can only pray that i survive. But its a thief, its okay for him to kill things fast.

The REAL problem is: thief jumps you, if burst works ur dead, if not thief stealthes and can leave battle or wait for his cooldowns / initiative to get back up and repeat.

You can do absolutly nothing against that. If a thief does not suceed to burst you down, you actually have a fair chance, which would make battles fair and fun, but he can open battles, leave battles, extend battles – all as he wishes. There seems to be no balance in that – if a thief does not want to fight he can get away. ALWAYS.

Its also funny that a thief has more reliable ranged attacks and kiting options then an actual caster class – But thats more a balance thing on the Necromancer side.

Thiefs are even capable to do more crazy things regarding getting in and out combat, but they are yet to be discovered / used because there is no need to. They dish out insane damage by simple buttonmashing, no need to master, shadowstep, burst, dead or get away.

Kravick.4906:

KirinDave.6451:

The only time I’ve had this seem to happen was with culling issues: a culled thief’s damage can render unreliably and this can give the appearance of a much bigger burst because they’ve actually had longer to work on you than you realized.

Yeah you’re not aware of whats actually happening. I figured as much.

I know how to crunch the numbers. Shall we? Before we begin, let’s have you set the parameters:

1. How much toughness do you have with 30k vitality?
2. How long is the burst? In seconds. There is a big difference between what a thief can do in 4 seconds vs what a thief can do in 1. In 3-4 seconds, 30k of damage is not only possible, it’s easy (and not just for thief). In 1s, you have 1 mug, 1 C&D, 1 AA double attack or maybe 1 heartseeker and possibly an air proc? Under assassin’s signet. The other 3 attacks need to put you below 50% before heartseeker makes sense to use.
3. Should we ignore all necromancer traits?

I’ll even make a repeatable program you can run to plug different numbers in. The raw data is easy to find. And example builds are not exactly trade secrets.

xev.9476:

I don’t even know what that means; it seems like an incoherent thought that just sounds nice to say.

No need to get defensive.

xev.9476:

If by “fair” we mean the opportunity for opposing teams/players a fighting chance to win particular battles, engagements, or maps, then WvW simply has to be “fair” in a big way.

It hasn’t been. That’s why breakouts have been added. On EB, taking your base fort is tough to recover from unless your server has coverage in hours that your opponent does not. On Borderlands, similarly weird things can happen.

You just see a lot of talk about 1v1 fights and how game balance should consider those matchups and how thieves are “OP” or “unfair” or “unabalanced” in those contexts because they’re so simple to demonstrate. But you could argue necros are “unfair”, “OP”, and “unbalanced” when used to hold people off gates. Because they’re really, really good at making siege operator’s lives miserable. Most of the time in the small tower cap groups I’ve run in we have a rule, “If you spot 2 necros on the walls, don’t use rams. It takes too long.”

Heck, when running my engineer (bad choice to go to 80, I know. Can’t undo the past though) my entire job during sieges was to try and yank necros off the walls into nailbox fields and then juggle them on knockdowns so we could use rams and take guarded towers in a reasonable amount of time.

My issue is that with thieves, there is no fighting chance for some professions in many different scenarios. It’s not an issue of tactics, it’s an issue of game mechanics: thieves have the ability to disable and spike down my 27k necro + DS in less than 4 seconds, and then completely vanish, regain any health loss and initiative, and do it all over again in a matter of seconds.

Actually they really cannot do all of these things at once “in a matter of seconds.” If they’re rocking huge hits, they generally don’t have more than one condition clearing skill (Hide in Shadows cures burns, poisons and bleeds but it is on a 30s cooldown) if they’ve gone deep into their power trees for the huge hits. And if they did go into Shadow Arts, it’s actually not the easiest sell to use a trait slot for that condition clear given how many good traits are in that tree. There are no 30/30/10/0/10 builds.

By the way, I’m not trying to say, “Don’t feel frustrated.” I feel frustrated too when one of my characters gets picked out for a gankgam style beatdown. But generally I just get stood back up by my group and the thief has run away and I shrug, because we still killed the dolyaks and took the camp. I am saying, “Try to keep perspective.”

The real shame is that these tiger thieves aren’t even the scariest thieves out there. Everyone just sees them and gets confirmation bias because you can’t see what they’re doing very well. Skilled attrition p/d thieves are way more obnoxious to deal with, and more likely to be able to win 4v1s.

KirinDave.6451:

Actually they really cannot do all of these things at once “in a matter of seconds.” If they’re rocking huge hits, they generally don’t have more than one condition clearing skill (Hide in Shadows cures burns, poisons and bleeds but it is on a 30s cooldown) if they’ve gone deep into their power trees for the huge hits. And if they did go into Shadow Arts, it’s actually not the easiest sell to use a trait slot for that condition clear given how many good traits are in that tree. There are no 30/30/10/0/10 builds.

By the way, I’m not trying to say, “Don’t feel frustrated.” I feel frustrated too when one of my characters gets picked out for a gankgam style beatdown. But generally I just get stood back up by my group and the thief has run away and I shrug, because we still killed the dolyaks and took the camp. I am saying, “Try to keep perspective.”

The real shame is that these tiger thieves aren’t even the scariest thieves out there. Everyone just sees them and gets confirmation bias because you can’t see what they’re doing very well. Skilled attrition p/d thieves are way more obnoxious to deal with, and more likely to be able to win 4v1s.

Thats the point: Thieves dont have to spec to deep into power. They have insane base damages, and the ability to spend all initiative into that one burst – then get away and decide what to do next. If a thief skills for power crit its okay for him to deal huge damage – but he always has insane damage and perfect escapes no matter if with traits or without. And thats just the “basic” thief form, without much thinking or skill involved. Those attrition based thieves are even more skilled and more OP.

The problem is that thieves get burst damage, sustained damage, atrittion, escape an damage prevention mechanics all for free, most of this things ONLY trhough the weapon sets. Traits and utilities enhance that even further. They have no natural downsides, but yet the abilities to choose which playstyle they want to excel at.

And that is what will get nerfed hard in the future for thieves – If a lets say “Tiger thief” without many thoughts about tactics, skill, and builds can outshine another player that “mastered” his class far more then this thief does, a nerf is really ensured. ESPECIALLY in a game that has no trinity, EVERY class has to be able to get a fair chance in 1vs 1 against EVERY other class. Right now a good thief is unkillable unless he jumps into a full zerg.

People are now capable of all things a necromancer can do – due to the pure need of trying to be on par with other classes. Thieves are yet to be fully mastered because you can get all of the OPnes of thieves even without much skill or thinking. If simple button mashing is superior to a combination of builds, skill and tactics a nerf will come. A hard nerf.

Brujeria.7536:

Thats the point: Thieves dont have to spec to deep into power. They have insane base damages, and the ability to spend all initiative into that one burst – then get away and decide what to do next.

Their ability to do so is greatly exaggerated in the mind’s eye. I’ve been sPvPing a lot with various thief builds as a way to better learn to fight them. And my first observations were about my favorite sPvP class, Necromancers. Defensive or balance necros are one of the hardest classes to take down as a backstab thief (they just eat thief burst even through basilisk venom with DS then drop a well and ask the thief to play a dagger duel). I even know exactly what they’re doing and it’s hard to counter. I usually just avoid them if I can.

Brujeria.7536:

If a thief skills for power crit its okay for him to deal huge damage – but he always has insane damage and perfect escapes no matter if with traits or without.

Which he doesn’t. Thieves get those big hits by exploiting the same trick a bunch of fast-hitter classes use, by using the multiplicative nature of crit + crit damage stacking with reasonable high power. This eats up the backstab thief itemization budget and the end up with poor survivability. Drop a well of suffering and start life draining, most backstab thieves MUST run from this, especially if you start waving a dagger around in the mix. And if you cripple them and catch them out of stealth it’s pretty much over.

I know this because these are the things Necros have been using to kill me and it sucks and all you can do is hope to stealth in a random direction and hope the necro loses sight of you. You can only shadowstep so many times.

Brujeria.7536:

Those attrition based thieves are even more skilled and more OP.

I have to sort of agree with you there. Attrition thieves are very hard to deal with and I am hoping to figure out some ways to do it by playing as one.

Brujeria.7536:

Traits and utilities enhance that even further. They have no natural downsides, but yet the abilities to choose which playstyle they want to excel at.

Well ostensibly this is how every class should be. But they do have downsides. There is no such thing as a “tanky” thief, and thieves are lousy at contesting points compared to lots of other classes..

Brujeria.7536:

People are now capable of all things a necromancer can do – due to the pure need of trying to be on par with other classes.

I am so sick of the Necro whining. Go roll an engineer if you want to see what true despair is.

Brujeria.7536:

Thieves are yet to be fully mastered because you can get all of the OPnes of thieves even without much skill or thinking. If simple button mashing is superior to a combination of builds, skill and tactics a nerf will come. A hard nerf.

I like how Necromancers are now “mastered by everyone” yet Nemesis and Sheobix are still proposing new builds. You only recently started to see wellbombers become popular in PvP, as well. Meanwhile the thief builds have not exactly been where GW2 innovation has been happening.

Necromancers need some help: some trait cleanup and amping, minion AI will need work forever, and axe needs a modest boost like making Axe 3 a blast finisher. They are nowhere near as bad as people here want to complain, and bunker necros are incredibly strong against burst thieves.

You really should try playing a thief in sPvP and see how frightening necromancers become to you. They and Guardians are by far the most dicey matchup.

I can tell you right now that if you keep your eyes on the target and not your bar and strafe to keep your back away from thieves, you will deny them backstabs and waste their stealths. When they drop out of stealth from a failed bs they are 3s in sight and in close range. You can lengthen their time in non-stealth by double fearing, immobilizing, or chilling while you see them.

Tbh gcan thieves are total easycake and i dont lose to them in 1v1 or 1v2. Condition thieves are more fun to fight because they actually use stealth to gain range and surprise. Those tend to be closer fights, but i still win because the necromancers condition management is fantastic.

I will probably get hate for saying this, but I think thieves are just fine. The main issue is culling, which thieves do take advantage of, but I cant recommend nerfing a profession due to a bug like that.

On my necro, I dont think I have met a single thief that bursted me down, or even a p/d thief who could finish me.

When they open on me, I just insta fear them, chill them, wreck them. If they open with basalisk venom, just pop into DS(which gives me retaliation btw), or stunbreak with spectral walk/armor. Usually one dagger chain from me is enough to make them retreat, and when they are trying to stealth I hit my lifesteal channel attack, which hits them hard and points a line right to where they are in stealth, if theyre still not dead, Ill hit DS4, which hits hard, and usually finishes them.

But anyway, as far as the really hard hitting backstab thieves, I dont even run with high vitality, just a lot of armor(I use full knights currently), and I have never been downed by the steal/cloak and dagger/backstab combo.

I do play a thief, so maybe thats why theyre so easy for me, but I stand by my opinion that if you nerf thieves, they will be near useless. I feel twice as powerful in WvW on my necro than on my thief.

KirinDave.6451:

Kravick.4906:

KirinDave.6451:

The only time I’ve had this seem to happen was with culling issues: a culled thief’s damage can render unreliably and this can give the appearance of a much bigger burst because they’ve actually had longer to work on you than you realized.

Yeah you’re not aware of whats actually happening. I figured as much.

I know how to crunch the numbers. Shall we? Before we begin, let’s have you set the parameters:

1. How much toughness do you have with 30k vitality?
2. How long is the burst? In seconds. There is a big difference between what a thief can do in 4 seconds vs what a thief can do in 1. In 3-4 seconds, 30k of damage is not only possible, it’s easy (and not just for thief). In 1s, you have 1 mug, 1 C&D, 1 AA double attack or maybe 1 heartseeker and possibly an air proc? Under assassin’s signet. The other 3 attacks need to put you below 50% before heartseeker makes sense to use.
3. Should we ignore all necromancer traits?

I’ll even make a repeatable program you can run to plug different numbers in. The raw data is easy to find. And example builds are not exactly trade secrets.

And I’m able to read people. You, my friend, are an open book. You hide behind theorycrafting because you have limited or no actual experience in PVP. I’ve run the Juggermancer build. Its pure defense. Vitality and toughness as high as you can get it. Talking 2k+ in both here. I’ve been destroyed by burst thieves in a matter of seconds using that build when caught unware. If I see them coming, I usually come out on top, but its not a long and drawn out affair by any means. The fight is usually over rather quickly. However, when I start winning, they just run away and reset the fight. I can never actually kill them. That is not a victory. That is a stalemate. The object is to win, not draw. We’re supposed to be the class that everyone has a hard time running from, remember? This isn’t the case and even you have to admit that much.

You cannot quantify an experience. Theres a hell of a lot more to these things than just numbers and data. I’m sorry, but you know nothing of whats actually happening. Your programs mean nothing to me, or anyone else, for that matter. As shown in other threads you’ve posted in, you need to get your head out of the numbers and play the game like the rest of us are. Theorycrafting and reality are two completely different things.

1800 toughness tough/prec/condi damage amulet necro, and a thief with basilisk venom combo can still take 60% my health out in 2-3 seconds.

Toughness doesn’t do kitten. Dragging out a fight against a thief does nothing because with their current traits they can easily regenerate their inititative for another high damage sequence much faster than your wimpy skills recharge.

With stealth, they remove conditions constantly, plus regenning health, plus regenning initiative. And you know what? Poison doesn’t matter at all because their heal skill removes it. Don’t you love when a condition your class is balanced around as an “attrition” class is made obsolete by some classes’s baseline heal?

Zenith.7301:

1800 toughness tough/prec/condi damage amulet necro, and a thief with basilisk venom combo can still take 60% my health out in 2-3 seconds.

Toughness doesn’t do kitten. Dragging out a fight against a thief does nothing because with their current traits they can easily regenerate their inititative for another high damage sequence much faster than your wimpy skills recharge.

With stealth, they remove conditions constantly, plus regenning health, plus regenning initiative. And you know what? Poison doesn’t matter at all because their heal skill removes it. Don’t you love when a condition your class is balanced around as an “attrition” class is made obsolete by some classes’s baseline heal?

Every class that has a condition removal on heal does this. You’re right. It is a bullkitten mechanic.

Kravick.4906:

And I’m able to read people. You, my friend, are an open book. You hide behind theorycrafting because you have limited or no actual experience in PVP. I’ve run the Juggermancer build. Its pure defense. Vitality and toughness as high as you can get it. Talking 2k+ in both here. I’ve been destroyed by burst thieves in a matter of seconds using that build when caught unware. If I see them coming, I usually come out on top, but its not a long and drawn out affair by any means. The fight is usually over rather quickly. However, when I start winning, they just run away and reset the fight. I can never actually kill them. That is not a victory. That is a stalemate.

I like how you simultaneously dismiss my point, roll your eyes when I offer to do the hard work for you, and also make sure to hedge your bets so you agree with the part of what I said you know you can’t defend. It’s classic forum work, sir, and I salute your dedication to never being wrong no matter the cost to your argument.

You say, “I had an experience.” I say, “These are the forums and forumgoers are not reliable.” Even me, by the way. That’s why I like running the numbers, reality often intrudes on our lousy methods of drawing conclusions.

Kravick.4906:

The object is to win, not draw. We’re supposed to be the class that everyone has a hard time running from, remember? This isn’t the case and even you have to admit that much.

A thief that runs from a point, camp, dolyak, or gate has lost. You, as a defender, have won. If you want to melt individual noobs in a flash of blood and steel, you’re playing the wrong class. Or at least the wrong build.

The only thief build I’m not sure about how to beat as a necro is the p/d attrition thief, becuase they can spec to remove conditions in stealth. But for burst thieves, tank necros and guardians are the counter and their only option is to run and hope they make it out.

Kravick.4906:

Theorycrafting and reality are two completely different things.

I cannot prove a negative. But I think you’re overstating the numbers to make your case. Load up a screencapture program and show your >2k toughness 30k health necromancer being exploded in (marvelously vague) “seconds”. Or don’t. But don’t sit here and say I’ve got no case when I can give you hard evidence and you counter by demanding I trust you.

KirinDave.6451:

Kravick.4906:

And I’m able to read people. You, my friend, are an open book. You hide behind theorycrafting because you have limited or no actual experience in PVP. I’ve run the Juggermancer build. Its pure defense. Vitality and toughness as high as you can get it. Talking 2k+ in both here. I’ve been destroyed by burst thieves in a matter of seconds using that build when caught unware. If I see them coming, I usually come out on top, but its not a long and drawn out affair by any means. The fight is usually over rather quickly. However, when I start winning, they just run away and reset the fight. I can never actually kill them. That is not a victory. That is a stalemate.

I like how you simultaneously dismiss my point, roll your eyes when I offer to do the hard work for you, and also make sure to hedge your bets so you agree with the part of what I said you know you can’t defend. It’s classic forum work, sir, and I salute your dedication to never being wrong no matter the cost to your argument.

You say, “I had an experience.” I say, “These are the forums and forumgoers are not reliable.” Even me, by the way. That’s why I like running the numbers, reality often intrudes on our lousy methods of drawing conclusions.

Kravick.4906:

The object is to win, not draw. We’re supposed to be the class that everyone has a hard time running from, remember? This isn’t the case and even you have to admit that much.

A thief that runs from a point, camp, dolyak, or gate has lost. You, as a defender, have won. If you want to melt individual noobs in a flash of blood and steel, you’re playing the wrong class. Or at least the wrong build.

The only thief build I’m not sure about how to beat as a necro is the p/d attrition thief, becuase they can spec to remove conditions in stealth. But for burst thieves, tank necros and guardians are the counter and their only option is to run and hope they make it out.

Kravick.4906:

Theorycrafting and reality are two completely different things.

I cannot prove a negative. But I think you’re overstating the numbers to make your case. Load up a screencapture program and show your >2k toughness 30k health necromancer being exploded in (marvelously vague) “seconds”. Or don’t. But don’t sit here and say I’ve got no case when I can give you hard evidence and you counter by demanding I trust you.

So why don’t you upload videos of your successful fights against competent thieves instead?

Zenith.7301:

So why don’t you upload videos of your successful fights against competent thieves instead?

Working on it, actually. I got a mac laptop and my traditional screencap tools do a very poor job of games, but I found a workaround and I’ve already logged a few games with decent footage. The quality will… not be exceptional.

But I am not sure that’s really the claim. The claim is, “A thief can do a single burst and kill a necromancer with >30k health and >2k toughness even through their deathshroud.” Which I think is absurd. No one has said, “Thieves always beat Necromancers.”

In the meantime, someone much better than me has a few WvW duels vs. decent thieves in this thread. I am so glad to see Corrupt Boon get more loving; not enough people rock that skill (or use Staff 4 offensively) but that video has both! And Rune of the Forge gets some loving, which just doesn’t get enough play.

Huh? Since when is Corrupt Boon not used? I would think it to be the one utility skill that every necro is required to have considering the current potency of boon spam in the game.

Zenith.7301:

Huh? Since when is Corrupt Boon not used? I would think it to be the one utility skill that every necro is required to have considering the current potency of boon spam in the game.

The guy is full of kitten. Going by what he has said so far on these forums, its questionable if he has ever set foot in WvW or SPvP at all. Experience trumps theorycrafting, and thus far thats all hes even willing to show us. The “my computer can’t handle it” excuse is typical for this type of personality as well.

I also agree with the Corrupt Boon statement. What necromancer doesn’t have Corrupt Boon by default in a utility slot in PVP? This brings to question the validity of anything he has to say at this point.

A thief that runs from a point, camp, dolyak, or gate has lost. You, as a defender, have won. If you want to melt individual noobs in a flash of blood and steel, you’re playing the wrong class. Or at least the wrong build.

Again, not having all the facts. Remember when the developers said we, as the necro class, are supposed to be the class people have a hard time running away from? Draw your own conclusions from that statement. Name one class that can’t disengage and run away from us at will. Thieves certainly have the single target burst that the developers envisioned. Wheres the necros ability to chase people down?

You have multiple people telling you how it actually is, yet you still cling to raw numbers like that actually means anything in the face of actual experience. Your numbers are not telling you the whole truth, nor are they showing you the bigger picture, and if you had actually been in WvW or SPvP you wouldn’t be saying any of this useless stuff.

Necromancers aren’t gimped by any means, but thieves put down bunker builds like nobodies business.

I haven’t had an issue with culling and thieves at all. I know there is a culling issue, but my problems with thieves occur during 1v1 or small skirmish settings when, say, I’m guarding/scouting something. If I’m caught off guard and slammed from behind, I’m dead before I can even target the kitten thief. This back and forth is just stupid, though. KirinDave thinks those of us who have experienced such episodes are either lying or exaggerating, but I see videos of thieves with 9k crits from December. With haste and any number of might/fury abilities, is it really so mind boggling that our experiences might actually be genuine??

Stx suggested a build and some utilities I haven’t tried, so perhaps that’s the issue. But I assure you I’m not exaggerating – less than 4 seconds, and I’m dead.

The video I saw of that wvw guy has food and sharpening stone buffs, and the stat distribution acquired in wvw is not possible in spvp.

I wish people would stop using their silly wvw videos to prove stuff about spvp. I cannot get 27-29k hp and have 1600+ toughness at the same time in heart of the mists.

xev.9476:

I haven’t had an issue with culling and thieves at all. I know there is a culling issue, but my problems with thieves occur during 1v1 or small skirmish settings when, say, I’m guarding/scouting something. If I’m caught off guard and slammed from behind, I’m dead before I can even target the kitten thief. This back and forth is just stupid, though. KirinDave thinks those of us who have experienced such episodes are either lying or exaggerating, but I see videos of thieves with 9k crits from December. With haste and any number of might/fury abilities, is it really so mind boggling that our experiences might actually be genuine??

Stx suggested a build and some utilities I haven’t tried, so perhaps that’s the issue. But I assure you I’m not exaggerating – less than 4 seconds, and I’m dead.

My geared out 80 ranger was hit for 2 9k heartseeker crits in a row 2 days ago in WvW while I was following around a zerg.

Yesterday 2 thieves were messing around with Godsword, around 6 of us responded (Zerg was busy with hills keep). 5 were level 80, not sure about the guardian that was with us, but the two thieves downed 4 people in the matter of about 3 minutes. They didn’t actually finish anyone because I was putting marks and wells all over the bodies. The only reason they eventually left was because a smallish Zerg showed up and they ran. This is not a L2P issue and us arguing over thieves getting nerfed is a moot point. A nerf is guaranteed. 100% money back guaranteed, wait and see, and then don’t be shocked when it happens.