Guild Wars 2

Hey guys. Maybe I am missing something and someone can guide me in the right direction but does it seem that necro warhorn 5 is a little lacking in the group utility category?

There are 3 classes that use warhorn. Warrior, Ranger and Necro. Out of these, necro is the only one that does not apply buffs to allies as well when the warhorn is blown. Right now, I am thinking that it should apply swiftness to allies as well as yourself.

Two arguments against this would be:
1. Deathly swarm cripples so you are passively buffing your allies by slowing down enemies
2. Deathly swarm damages and cripples so it would be OP if allies got swiftness as well

What do you guys think. Would warhorn be OP if swiftness were applied to allies as well? The main reason I would like a change like this is for WvW. I always feel kind of selfish/useless when running with a group and I blow my warhorn 5 and I am sure others have felt the same

I agree that it is a great weapon for a power build but adding group utility would not make it any more powerful for the necro himself

I’ve had this same thought several times this week. I’m definitely a proponent of adding AoE swiftness.

5 bucks say it will never happen because of lore

a) our core design is very selfish, no point changing it
b) HOW THE FUDGE CAKE IS A AOE DAZE NOT SUPPORTIVE (so the team help skill on 4 instead of 5).
c) It 5 used to siphon hp
d) HOW BY GRENTHS BURNED WINTERSDAY BICUITS IS A AOE DAZE NOT SUPPORTIVE?

Andele.1306:

a) our core design is very selfish, no point changing it
b) HOW THE FUDGE CAKE IS A AOE DAZE NOT SUPPORTIVE (so the team help skill on 4 instead of 5).
c) It 5 used to siphon hp
d) HOW BY GRENTHS BURNED WINTERSDAY BICUITS IS A AOE DAZE NOT SUPPORTIVE?

I agree that an aoe daze is supportive. It just does not make sense to me that there are 3 classes that have a warhorn skill that provides swiftness and we are the only one that does not apply that swiftness AOE

Sepreh.5924:

I agree that an aoe daze is supportive. It just does not make sense to me that there are 3 classes that have a warhorn skill that provides swiftness and we are the only one that does not apply that swiftness AOE

That matters how exactly? Everyone has a way to keep permaswiftness on with relatively low investment, and its not really like swiftness is a strong boon.

warhorn is really good weapon no sense to change it

if you go through all necromancer weapons and skills it should be very obvious very few skills buff allies at all so in that sense it follows common pattern.

there’s only one point here. why in dfsfsdggs and dgsgdgwre would you suddenly swiftness???? your buddy doesn’t know how to blow horn?

i mean really now

I find the locust swarm hitting mobs really annoying to be honest….. try and make a quick getaway in WvW and you tag mobs = dead necro.

I would rather it be a straight up speed buff.

Avigrus.2871:

I find the locust swarm hitting mobs really annoying to be honest….. try and make a quick getaway in WvW and you tag mobs = dead necro.

You should be using Dark Path on one of the ambient one-shot critters. You port to them, but they don’t put you into combat for hitting them.

asking for a blast finisher ona warhorn skill is all the support I’d need it to have actually….but then again it’ll never happen any time soon

You’re asking to add strength to a weapon, which is fine if you believe warhorn is weak (debatable but still there). Problem is any strength added to a weapon is totalled in its overall strength, meaning everything added to it must still be within its “power budget” to borrow words from LoL developers.

What does this mean and why does it even matter? It means that, by adding swiftness in AoE, that strength gain is taking away other strength that could be put in the weapon. This could be increased damage, wider AoE, whatever, but the important thing is it is taking away power from something, that is how balance works.

So the question is, is added AoE swiftness worth a loss in otherwise effectiveness, either through a nerf to what we have now, or a “nerf” in the sense that it replaces anohter buff we would otherwise have gotten. I say no. Swiftness just isn’t an important buff in general, and the other weapons do better because they are at their core AoE buff weapons, which ours is not.

personally, I wish they’d make the swiftness an AoE buff sort of like mes wall, and increase the daze skill to a large AoE cone just like the Mesmer attacks. (if they could even lengthen the daze by an extra second, it would actually be a useful tool.)

Warhorn is a great weapon. The only change I would make is in PvE in regards to so many enemies being immune, especially champs. This is a more sweeping change for CC across the board, however.

Draehl.2681:

Warhorn is a great weapon. The only change I would make is in PvE in regards to so many enemies being immune, especially champs. This is a more sweeping change for CC across the board, however.

When they made the change for champs to be immune to interrupts from the skill, a lot of players left that day, i’m pretty sure. That was around the same time my original guild started moving out of GW2.

Sepreh.5924:

What do you guys think. Would warhorn be OP if swiftness were applied to allies as well? The main reason I would like a change like this is for WvW. I always feel kind of selfish/useless when running with a group and I blow my warhorn 5 and I am sure others have felt the same

My play time is spent mostly in WvW environement and i always like to follow groups when i am not with my guild and i can say this: i NEVER use any single skill for speed since there are a lot of guardians and warriors near you anyway so…you kinda have permaswift as long as you follow the group.
I would rather preffer to see a wider cone of daze imo.

As a Necromancer i am selfish and do not care about other people, therefore i don’t need AoE Swiftness.

In seriousness, the toss up between Warhorn and Dagger for me is exactly 50/50 in WvW, i’ll use one, then the other, depending on what i feel like doing, AoE swiftness on the Warhorn would probably push me in favor of Warhorn to about 80/20 in WvW, and i’ll be picking the obvious choice.

I don’t want an obvious choice, i like it as is. Also, Necromancers aren’t really known for their boon giving abilities.

Thanks for all the feedback guys!

Bhawb, I definitely get your point and had a feeling that would be brought up when I initially posted.

I guess my response would be this:
About whether warhorn should actually be buffed, others may not agree and think that warhorn is already powerful enough as is, but I think a small buff to something that it is already able to do would not put it over the top. Using the aforementioned examples, a wider AOE of the locust swarm, more damage from locust swarm or increased cripple duration or AOE swiftness.

About what that buff should actually be, I dont necessarily think that adding a new functionality to it would be necessary. It is what it is – warhorn gives AOE damage and cripple and provides swiftness.

Now, out of those 4 potential buffs I would be in favor of AOE swiftness for a few reasons. (1) as others have pointed it is not a huge buff. Warhorn 5 does not need a huge buff, just a little added functionality. (2) I definitely get that there are many AOE speed buffs on other classes in WvW already but if you are running with a small group, some people may not have those skills equipped and if running with a large group there are AOE caps and extra AOE swiftness always helps.

I guess my point is that we already have swiftness on the weapon set, the weapon is already pretty good and adding a small buff by making that swiftness AOE would not be OP but would be beneficial to your group.

Warhorn 5 at least deals good damage, even if it provides no group buffs an the swiftness is worthless for getting across the map..

War horn 4 is the one that is ridiculously sub par. Other skills that daze also do damage. (Thief pistol 4 ranger GS 5) and daze is such a weak condition already compared to other CC.

Warhorn 5 does more than Damage, AoE Cripple, Swiftness, but also LF Gen, not that LF Gen is needed much in WvW but for other game modes it’s useful.

What you’re trying to make happen is called Homogenization, where basically classes get the same stuff to make the game more balanced, which (in my opinion) ruins class uniqueness, it happened a lot in WoW over the last 2 expacks and GW2 is no exception.

Why do we need AoE Swiftness on a Warhorn? Because other classes have that on the same weapon? That’s not a reason, that’s homogenization, the cheapest form of balance.

I in no way mean to undermine your opinion or offend, this is just how i feel about even more homogenization in GW2 and why i think things like this shouldn’t happen.

I think the warhorn is actually fairly good. Like people mentioned, the crippling and daze. Though the Staff and Scepter are both better at slowing your foe down then the warhorn is. And the staff causes fear. Not to mention the main hand dagger causing immobilize and the off hand dagger causing blind and weakness. Not to mention the focus which causes vulnerability and regenerates allies while removing boons and causing chilled. I think the necromancer’s weapons cause lots of support. Just maybe not in as direct as a way as you might like.

The Warhorn is far better at melee range then the other weapons. So that should be considered when using it. It helps to keep foes close to you, which can support your ranged allies.

Tobbygnome.6793:

I in no way mean to undermine your opinion or offend, this is just how i feel about even more homogenization in GW2 and why i think things like this shouldn’t happen.

Haha, thank you! Not offended at all but I appreciate the thought and appreciate the fact that we have a community who can have discussions like this. Clearly everyone here cares about the class and it is great when we can have a conversation back and forth.

I can see the point about homogenization and agree that we do not want our class to lose its identity. On the other side, though, it is a warhorn and when I think of warhorn, I think of someone blowing it and signaling allies to get ready for battle (with swiftness). Maybe I should think about it more as someone blowing it and signaling enemies to get un-ready for battle.

Sepreh.5924:

Tobbygnome.6793:

I in no way mean to undermine your opinion or offend, this is just how i feel about even more homogenization in GW2 and why i think things like this shouldn’t happen.

Haha, thank you! Not offended at all but I appreciate the thought and appreciate the fact that we have a community who can have discussions like this. Clearly everyone here cares about the class and it is great when we can have a conversation back and forth.

I can see the point about homogenization and agree that we do not want our class to lose its identity. On the other side, though, it is a warhorn and when I think of warhorn, I think of someone blowing it and signaling allies to get ready for battle (with swiftness). Maybe I should think about it more as someone blowing it and signaling enemies to get un-ready for battle.

For a necro, those are more or less the same thing. Necros have always been an “aggressive support” class, weakening their enemies instead of buffing their allies. Necro support is actually quite good and strong, but people don’t realize it because of a few reasons:

1. They don’t see yellow pentagons on their status bar from a necro.
2. They don’t see big green numbers over them from a necro
3. They don’t see attacks that don’t make contact due to a necro*

• #3 really only applies to bosses where Blind is all but useless, but those are the only attacks in PvE that you REALLY want to stop.

Cripple and Chill can negate incalculable amounts of damage from melee enemies. Weakness has actually saved people from one-shot mechanics in my experience (Kudu’s attack is very notable for this), some of which are unblockable. Poison works to keep healing enemies from negating damage dealt to them, and Epidemic on a boss with loads of conditions decimates nearby mobs in a way no other skill can.

Then there are the stranger forms of support a necro can provide, such as taking aggro themselves. I personally have managed to rank so high on some boss threat calculations that they were focused entirely on me, despite me being 1500+ range away from them at times. The amount of damage they were doing to everyone else in those events? 0. I could survive it, while many with higher damage output would not be able to.

In addition, necros have more access to unblockable skills than any other class. Dark Path, Wail of Doom, Corrosive Poison Cloud, Putrid Explosion, Grim Specter, and all wells are unblockable as base-line. Greater Marks gives us another 5 skills that are unblockable (Mark of Horror is not technically unblockable without it, but its effect is the same regardless of blocking or even dodging or invulnerability, making it the only mark/trap in the game that cannot be even partially negated in effect). This comes in handy at times, such as in volcano fractal (unblockable chill can be attained multiple ways and can buy valuable time).

I don’t think warhorn needs a buff. Then again I almost always run the improved warhorn trait. The damage is great, it generates a lot of life force, and the cripple is very nice too since I melee a lot. Swiftness is a bonus to me.

As far as the daze is concerned… yeah it could be better. The main thing I would ask for is for it to be instant. Its hard to interrupt some casts when you have to cast your daze. But with the trait I believe its a 3 second AE daze on 25 sec cooldown.. thats pretty nice.

I do use dagger offhand more often in pvp, but that mostly because I find weakness to be essential for killing thieves and warriors, and the condition transfer to be extremely helpful in all match-ups.

I’d love for it to siphon health as well.

Heartlust.6140:

I’d love for it to siphon health as well.

It will proc vampiric if you have it. Warhorn 5 is actually a really strong sustain tool with vampiric builds.

Bhawb.7408:

Heartlust.6140:

I’d love for it to siphon health as well.

It will proc vampiric if you have it. Warhorn 5 is actually a really strong sustain tool with vampiric builds.

It used to have siphon build in it too once upon a time, check historical traits (or youtubeTB sylvari necromancer).

It gives LF now (unless it used to do that too?) which is a “kind” of siphoning, just more disconnected.

Warhorn 5 is very strong, but it works only with mainhand dagger. You are probably not using it correctly.

Being chased? Use Warhorn 5, the melee player will get crippled and you go faster.

Chasing somebody? Use Warhorn 5, enemies cannot escape you. They become slower and you become faster.

Warhorn works best with dagger but every other weapon set doesn’t achieve max optimization with warhorn since you are more likely at out of range to use warhorn 5.

If anything Sepreh, think of no AoE Swiftness as a gift to Necros :P . Imagine, if Warhorn had swiftness, all these elite WvW ppl would be telling us to use Warhorn or gtfo scrub, or our guild might make us use Warhorn, or our group will say use Warhorn and we’ll have no say in matter but to use Warhorn!!! Warhorn Warhorn Warhorn
blow BoooooOoOooOoOooWooWOoooeoooeoEOOeoooo

:)

Warhorn is in a very good place right now.
There are only two issues that I see, and a lack of aoe swiftness isn’t a part of them.
Tagging mobs putting you into combat mode. This won’t be changed because combat slowdown appears to be here to stay.
I can’t even count the number of times I’ve interrupted #5 by accident because there is a strange delay after you blow the horn, and the skill’s effect, and I keep thinking the skill is done before the delay is over.

Adding aoe swiftness would be just strange imo. It would take away from the rest of the skill to keep it balanced in that case, and that would decrease the part that keeps it unique.
Just like how adding a torch throw to the mesmer’s torch to make it similar to ranger’s and guardian’s torch wouldn’t actually make anything better or more fun. It would just make things similar, and that’s not always a good thing at all.

runeblade.7514:

Warhorn 5 is very strong, but it works only with mainhand dagger. You are probably not using it correctly.

Being chased? Use Warhorn 5, the melee player will get crippled and you go faster.

Chasing somebody? Use Warhorn 5, enemies cannot escape you. They become slower and you become faster.

Warhorn works best with dagger but every other weapon set doesn’t achieve max optimization with warhorn since you are more likely at out of range to use warhorn 5.

Using a dagger (and having vampiric) certainly makes WH 5 more effective but it certainly not the “only” way for it to be effective. Personally, I feel its greatest application is using it in a large WvW fight and dragging that long tail through the heart of an enemy zerg (preferably while popping axe 3 and plague). Very disrupting.

The amount of hits the WH #5 can dish out ofver a relatively short period is excellent not only for procing vampiric, but also on-crit effects. You say you want more support out of warhorn? Put support oriented sigils in it. it’s not the perfect solution, but that’s mainly because the support oriented sigils themselves are weak and need buffing. the Wh itself is nearly perfect imo, with a few minor problems that could be ironed out. It just takes some practice with it to get comfortable enough to know when to use it and how to use it. Also, it’s not only a dagger-weapon setup. I’ve used it with much success in any weapon setup, but you have to use it differently each time. One of the best ways to utilize it in any setup is to hit Wh5 and then go into DS. It helps maintain the LF a little more as well as crippling the enemies, making it a tad easier to stick to them.

You should probably be running that warhorn with an axe as a tanky harassment necro for their range work very well together. (pop wh5 moving towards enemy, wh4, axe 3, DS
(Crippling AOE, LF returns, 15 seconds of retaliation.) DS5 DS4, out of DS. next sequence)

They are both solid choices in DS builds. Death shroud is very strong and should not be used as a life line.

Life force returns stack with healing power. Warhorn 5 and Axe 2 will get you a full bar of LF in a matter of seconds. WH5 during DS will also get you positive LF returns that outweight your LF loss as long as you keep a target under fire. The crippling is pretty nice.
Its about that swiftness and LF returns while in combat tho, Its not a weapon for condition necros, its for tanky in your face necros. WH4 stacks up to 4+ seconds of daze when traited.
WH5 and spectral walk keep you perma-swift.

Based on my appreciation of this weapon that i run everyday in WvW. I would love a buff but i dont think it is underpowered in any way that would justify one.

I am willing to share Shroudstomp/CC builds if there is interest.

ntx.2976:

Life force returns stack with healing power.

Can you show me where you found this info? Maybe I’m just having a brain fart (it has been a rough day :P ) but I can’t recall ever seeing that information.

Sepreh.5924:

Andele.1306:

a) our core design is very selfish, no point changing it
b) HOW THE FUDGE CAKE IS A AOE DAZE NOT SUPPORTIVE (so the team help skill on 4 instead of 5).
c) It 5 used to siphon hp
d) HOW BY GRENTHS BURNED WINTERSDAY BICUITS IS A AOE DAZE NOT SUPPORTIVE?

I agree that an aoe daze is supportive. It just does not make sense to me that there are 3 classes that have a warhorn skill that provides swiftness and we are the only one that does not apply that swiftness AOE

But by that logic, there are 3 classes that can use axe, and it makes no sense that warriors are the only ones who can’t use it at range.

datawais.7209:

Sepreh.5924:

Andele.1306:

a) our core design is very selfish, no point changing it
b) HOW THE FUDGE CAKE IS A AOE DAZE NOT SUPPORTIVE (so the team help skill on 4 instead of 5).
c) It 5 used to siphon hp
d) HOW BY GRENTHS BURNED WINTERSDAY BICUITS IS A AOE DAZE NOT SUPPORTIVE?

I agree that an aoe daze is supportive. It just does not make sense to me that there are 3 classes that have a warhorn skill that provides swiftness and we are the only one that does not apply that swiftness AOE

But by that logic, there are 3 classes that can use axe, and it makes no sense that warriors are the only ones who can’t use it at range.

Exactly. Different professions, different weapon skills. In any event, I certainly wouldn’t trade the AOE crippled or stun for it to balance out.
Besides, if I were to lobby for an ability that helps with group speed, I’d prefer WH4 act as a blast finisher in order to pop stun fields… and fire fields… and water fields…

Totally OP, I know but it would be awesome. =)