Guild Wars 2

Mark Katzbach.9084:

We’ll be covering mesmer and elementalist this week.

Basically, Necromancer is on the very last preview. Meaning, there is a whopping 4 days for us to give them feedback in change. Or, in more realistic terms, we are absolutely stuck with the changes they make for the next 6 months with no chance to give them feedback on how those changes might affect us. All this, despite the fact that we were voted highly in need of changes, and their track record of making highly questionable changes to the profession (or do we need to bring up Dumbfire again?).

Anet, you need to make better choices about stuff like this. I don’t care about being last, someone has to be, but you can’t give absolutely no time for feedback in addition to that.

also to note: signup for tournament starts tomorrow, and without any announced necro changes necro mains will probably have to sit this one out as no high tier team is willing to play with a necro in it’s current state. This is highly problematic as this is the first prelim for a tournament with 50k$ prizepool….
well played anet

I dont know what to think anymore. Will they ever realise that the core design philosophies of the necro need to be radically changed? And will they ever give us some serious attention?

Id like to say give us the necro CDI. But the feedback threads in this subforum and the profession balance subforum more than cover pretty much everything.

The Necromancer has a long standing history of causing trouble for Arena net. They did it in GW1 with minions, soul reaping, and suicide bombers and they do it with Death shroud in GW2.

I don’t expect our problems to be addressed for another year.

I don’t think that if you provided some feedback on Ranger even month ago, it would change anything in upcoming patch.

They have everything set by now I think.

Rym.1469:

I don’t think that if you provided some feedback on Ranger even month ago, it would change anything in upcoming patch.

They have everything set by now I think.

The entire point of splitting it into 4 shows was to give feedback. That’s also why they only preview some of the changes and not all of them. Now, if they don’t want feedback, just don’t ask for it and pretend like that’s what the goal is and then pull this.

I’d say we rage and make protest posts in the general forums like the #OccupySAB2013 threads.

Anet is totally out of touch with its playerbase, and as I’ve always known, they pick certain favorites for classes and throw others out into the trash…

Lets face it, when NO ONE takes necromancers in the PvE tournament that Anet provided gem rewards for, they should know that improving the necromancer should be a bit more of a priority. And the same logic applies for their wonderful E-sports bullkitten.

Even from the preview of the preview presented yesterday I cannot dig out any interesting changes incoming worth discussing.

There’s no word about changes to Death Shroud.
Nothing about minion AI.
No word about improving weapons in some significant way.
No word about Traits.
No word about group utility.

So I guess there’s just nothing exciting enough to discuss. Some tweaks here and there to utilities, okay I guess. But unless they bake some serious changes regarding Profession Mechanic/new PvE content where our abilities may be more useful than others’ ….

Keep expectations low, as always. I think they’re way too afraid of fixing Necromancer anyhow after “accident” year ago in July when they decided our condition builds needed a lot more damage.

By the way, I though the sole reason why they split Skill Bar into 4 shows was more to dedicate more time and focus to each of profession changes. And keep us hyped through longer time for September patch.

They should delay the balance portion of the patch to give each profession the attention they deserve.

i don’t even know what to say. Engineer is also on september 5th i assume, since i don’t see anything about them being earlier. just proves my point that they care about the professions based on the amount of people that play them. i’m afraid if the changes the patch brings aren’t totally mind blowing there will be even less necromancers and engineers running around(engineers are in a FAR better place than we are) and they’ll get even less attention and the cycle will continue. Thanks for the cleave on dagger anet, if we even get it.

Engineer was first, actually. Guardian will be last with us.

Bhawb.7408:

Engineer was first, actually. Guardian will be last with us.

really? interesting.

Blackmoa.3186:

also to note: signup for tournament starts tomorrow, and without any announced necro changes necro mains will probably have to sit this one out as no high tier team is willing to play with a necro in it’s current state. This is highly problematic as this is the first prelim for a tournament with 50k$ prizepool….
well played anet

Hey Moa, do you happen to know where te sign ups are? Thanks

I’m losing hope for any significant changes to our survivability in team fights now.

I play necro since beta and while I enjoyed the ride, I think I need to start looking for another profession…

;_;

Arena net does listen to us. For better or worse. Several of our traits were introduced out of requests from the community. Dhuumfire, Parasitic Contagion, Unholy Sanctuary, and Unholy Martyr are all things that were discussed by the community as something they would like. It might not seem like this is what we wanted and thats because there still is a disconnect between the community and the devs.

part of the community wanted burning, we got dhuumfire.

Part of the community wanted to heal themselves using conditions we got Parasitic contagion.

Most the the community wanted healing in death shroud we got Unholy sanctuary.

A good chunk of our community wanted to be able to help allies more with death shroud. We got Unholy martyr.

Sure most of this wasn’t exactly what we were thinking, but it is what the devs thought would be the right move to move forward. So they do listen, just aren’t always the best at getting it right.

Lily.1935:

Sure most of this wasn’t exactly what we were thinking, but it is what the devs thought would be the right move to move forward. So they do listen, just aren’t always the best at getting it right.

This is a good point. Anet does listen, sometimes too much. Which is part of why this is annoying, because with the timing they can’t listen, they have no time to.

I don’t think they are taking the feedback into consideration, despite saying that splitting them was for feedback. Do you think the warrior tears will keep adrenaline the same, or that rangers will get even more buffs? Not likely.

I wouldn’t get too worked up about it, it doesn’t change anything.

Bhawb.7408:

Lily.1935:

Sure most of this wasn’t exactly what we were thinking, but it is what the devs thought would be the right move to move forward. So they do listen, just aren’t always the best at getting it right.

This is a good point. Anet does listen, sometimes too much. Which is part of why this is annoying, because with the timing they can’t listen, they have no time to.

I feel like people are saying they won’t have enough time for giving feedback when they mean something else. What it sounds like, to me at least, is that people expect to say something constructive about a skill or trait after it’s announced and then Anet will make a change before the balance goes live. Did they say that’s how it’s going to work? I’m pretty sure unless they’ve been working on a balance change they feel is particularly egregious, there will be few if any changes based on feedback prior to the update. I’m just looking at their track record thus far. If people are particularly hopeful this time around, then by all means rally around your cause.

Bhawb.7408:

Mark Katzbach.9084:

We’ll be covering mesmer and elementalist this week.

Basically, Necromancer is on the very last preview. Meaning, there is a whopping 4 days for us to give them feedback in change. Or, in more realistic terms, we are absolutely stuck with the changes they make for the next 6 months with no chance to give them feedback on how those changes might affect us. All this, despite the fact that we were voted highly in need of changes, and their track record of making highly questionable changes to the profession (or do we need to bring up Dumbfire again?).

Anet, you need to make better choices about stuff like this. I don’t care about being last, someone has to be, but you can’t give absolutely no time for feedback in addition to that.

It is ridiculous that we get 4 days to give our feedback. By that stage I know that the reality of the changes will be locked in. As there is 1 working day before the patch hits and that day will be spent prepping for the patch.

As a result there is no point of giving feedback. It has been shown that anet have the most difficulty understanding the issues necromancer has in pvp. So this is disappointing to say the least. The devs dont play necro.

It is possible ready up for necro would be a week earlier rather than on the 4th. But even then the changes will be locked in. So it really is irrelevent. If warriors dont get nerfed as much because of all the QQ and yet necro nerfs go through I would say I would be mad but in reality it would be hilarious :P

Lily.1935:

Arena net does listen to us. For better or worse. Several of our traits were introduced out of requests from the community. Dhuumfire, Parasitic Contagion, Unholy Sanctuary, and Unholy Martyr are all things that were discussed by the community as something they would like. It might not seem like this is what we wanted and thats because there still is a disconnect between the community and the devs.

part of the community wanted burning, we got dhuumfire.

Part of the community wanted to heal themselves using conditions we got Parasitic contagion.

Most the the community wanted healing in death shroud we got Unholy sanctuary.

A good chunk of our community wanted to be able to help allies more with death shroud. We got Unholy martyr.

Sure most of this wasn’t exactly what we were thinking, but it is what the devs thought would be the right move to move forward. So they do listen, just aren’t always the best at getting it right.

This isn’t the case at all. We wanted sustain and healing in death shroud. But unholy sancuary is so clearly underpowered that it means they have no confidence in their ability to balance correctly. If they trsuted their testers they wouldn’t have the attitude of “add this thing and if its terrible we will buff it”. Unholy santuary is terrible even for an adept trait. It is conditional regen where the barrier to attain it has significant downsides (sitting in DS) which means your change in play style forced to make use of this trait will easily counter the power of the trait.

I would say, without testing, that making this trait 4 times as strong probably wouldn’t be overpowered for a grandmaster trait in this line. So to introduce such a low level of healing is frankly embarrassing for them.

Conceptually unholy santuary is ok. It is weak because of the numbers. At their speed of balancing this trait might as well of not been added. 50% or 100% buffs to this trait would likely take place over several balance patches (as in at least a year). When this trait needs 200% buff (at least) it is just never, in the lifetime of the game, going to get to a point where it is a useful trait.

Similarly the new spite grandmaster (heal with condi damage) is again just way too weak. Even at 10% (a 100% buff) it wouldnt be viable – espicially as it wont work with death shroud. I would say this trait is another one which cannot ever be viable because the distance between the number needed to make it viable (maybe 12-15%) and the current number (5%) is so large that it will take years to get there at the pace they balance at.

Bhawb.7408:

Rym.1469:

I don’t think that if you provided some feedback on Ranger even month ago, it would change anything in upcoming patch.

They have everything set by now I think.

The entire point of splitting it into 4 shows was to give feedback. That’s also why they only preview some of the changes and not all of them. Now, if they don’t want feedback, just don’t ask for it and pretend like that’s what the goal is and then pull this.

Aside from the Deceptive Evasion trait change with Mesmer in the last balance patch, I can’t say I can think of many, if any, occasions where ANet has reneged on their plans for patches/launches. Although, perhaps I just have a bad memory lol.

And if the feedback is supposed to be fed back to them through the appropriate channels (I presume, the forums), then that just makes me even more skeptical. Frankly, I feel like posting here is a waste of time and effort.

So their supposed reasoning behind being secretive about what they’re working on is that they don’t want to disappoint people if plans change? To be honest, use your common sense. People are going to complain about everything, in spite of what you do. Look at the state of the forums from over the past two years and then now.

I can’t speak for everyone else but I’d appreciate some transparency and more effort to involve the player base i.e their customers. The people on the forums who rage are always going to rage. ANet needs to basically grow some balls and stop being afraid of communicating.

The CDI kind of counts, but then again it just seems to have been disregarded, along with a slew of things that have been announced by them and then never heard of again.

That interview with Guild Mag notwithstanding, their standard response of “we’re not able to comment on that,” comes across as either evasiveness or cluelessness. Mixed in with bad management and bad (or perhaps, more accurately, nonexistent) PR.

Rym.1469:

Even from the preview of the preview presented yesterday I cannot dig out any interesting changes incoming worth discussing.

There’s no word about changes to Death Shroud.
Nothing about minion AI.
No word about improving weapons in some significant way.
No word about Traits.
No word about group utility.

So I guess there’s just nothing exciting enough to discuss. Some tweaks here and there to utilities, okay I guess. But unless they bake some serious changes regarding Profession Mechanic/new PvE content where our abilities may be more useful than others’ ….

Keep expectations low, as always. I think they’re way too afraid of fixing Necromancer anyhow after “accident” year ago in July when they decided our condition builds needed a lot more damage.

Firstly, sorry for not editing this into my wall of text but I’m on my iPad and am too lazy to format with my fingers

Secondly, I know that what they’ve given us is only a preview and not indicative of what’s to come in the patch, but I’m hoping not to be disappointed. I’m not expecting sweeping changes that will completely revamp the class but I hope that in the last few months, they’ve been able to come up with something more substantial than changes to axe animations to make them more fluid.

Lordrosicky.5813:

This isn’t the case at all. We wanted sustain and healing in death shroud. But unholy sancuary is so clearly underpowered that it means they have no confidence in their ability to balance correctly. If they trsuted their testers they wouldn’t have the attitude of “add this thing and if its terrible we will buff it”. Unholy santuary is terrible even for an adept trait. It is conditional regen where the barrier to attain it has significant downsides (sitting in DS) which means your change in play style forced to make use of this trait will easily counter the power of the trait.

I would say, without testing, that making this trait 4 times as strong probably wouldn’t be overpowered for a grandmaster trait in this line. So to introduce such a low level of healing is frankly embarrassing for them.

Conceptually unholy santuary is ok. It is weak because of the numbers. At their speed of balancing this trait might as well of not been added. 50% or 100% buffs to this trait would likely take place over several balance patches (as in at least a year). When this trait needs 200% buff (at least) it is just never, in the lifetime of the game, going to get to a point where it is a useful trait.

Similarly the new spite grandmaster (heal with condi damage) is again just way too weak. Even at 10% (a 100% buff) it wouldnt be viable – espicially as it wont work with death shroud. I would say this trait is another one which cannot ever be viable because the distance between the number needed to make it viable (maybe 12-15%) and the current number (5%) is so large that it will take years to get there at the pace they balance at.

I’m not disagreeing with you on the power. However, I did say that and I’ll quote myself:

Sure most of this wasn’t exactly what we were thinking, but it is what the devs thought would be the right move to move forward. So they do listen, just aren’t always the best at getting it right.

To be quite frank with you, these traits are a result of topics the community has had about the profession. They didn’t get them right and I feel that they are too far off from what the necromancer needs. The necromancer has always been a problem for balancing, even in GW1. Don’t expect them to get it right so soon.

PS: I never said the traits were good. Just that they are kinda what the community asked for.

Feedback in WvW? OP, you are in the wrong forum.

I get the impression from this thread that some posters are expecting big, drastic changes. Outside of fixing or re-working things that aren’t used, I don’t think that’s needed. I don’t think we need sweeping changes to be in a better spot. These changes may be what the class really needs, depending on how it’s done. Too often are sweeping changes suggested for death shroud when I think the class really needs some cooldown reductions, some buffs to weapons, improved life force generation.

Personally I’m hopeful that a good necromancer can continue to generate life force and sustain in a fight reasonably well, like a dagger elementalist can heal.

If you are expecting necros to not have to watch their positioning and pick your fights after the patch because they reworked our defenses, you’re going to be disappointed.

Roe.3679:

If you are expecting necros to not have to watch their positioning and pick your fights after the patch because they reworked our defenses, you’re going to be disappointed.

Dont worry since the Signet of Vampire implementation, i have stopped being disappointed with the non viability of a bloodmagic necromancer.

We don’t need sweeping changes, but we do need things like siphons working through death shroud. Without that, siphons will never be good. Or they get buffed to the point of being OP. Best to let them work through death shroud, then adjust values from there.

Muchacho.2390:

Roe.3679:

If you are expecting necros to not have to watch their positioning and pick your fights after the patch because they reworked our defenses, you’re going to be disappointed.

Dont worry since the Signet of Vampire implementation, i have stopped being disappointed with the non viability of a bloodmagic necromancer.

Since you mention that, I would love to see SoV buffed with some other siphons and whatnot. Parasitic contagion condi siphons is pretty fun now, would be nice if it were more competitive.

But regardless that’s the type of change I’m not going to expect. I’ll be happy with weapon and life force improvements like was mentioned.

I know I’m setting myself up for failure, but I’m expecting life force generation to scale better against multiple targets and the removal of global internal cooldowns for a more unique/individual or per-single target cool down.

Tournament-of-Glory-Sign-ups-Delayed-until-Friday

Send your concerns to this thread, you might get a response.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

We don’t need sweeping changes, but we do need things like siphons working through death shroud. Without that, siphons will never be good. Or they get buffed to the point of being OP. Best to let them work through death shroud, then adjust values from there.

We do need sweeping changes as you put it. And making siphons work through death shroud is a sweeping change fyi. The necromancer has a lot more problems with death shroud then just that and the entire ability might need to be reworked in the future to make sure the profession stays competitive.

Bhawb.7408:

Mark Katzbach.9084:

We’ll be covering mesmer and elementalist this week.

Basically, Necromancer is on the very last preview. Meaning, there is a whopping 4 days for us to give them feedback in change. Or, in more realistic terms, we are absolutely stuck with the changes they make for the next 6 months with no chance to give them feedback on how those changes might affect us.

Dude, I think the real problem here isn’t that necromancers get their balance preview last, but that balance patches aren’t frequent enough! Personally I wouldn’t give a kitten if they made a complete balls-up of the Sept 9 patch if they fixed the most egregious mistakes a week or two later! I think that, rather than trying to draw their attention to the narrow concerns of necro players alone, we should be hammering it into their heads that EVERYONE wants more frequent balance patches. I don’t think we should be distracting from that message.

Bhawb.7408:

Mark Katzbach.9084:

We’ll be covering mesmer and elementalist this week.

Basically, Necromancer is on the very last preview. Meaning, there is a whopping 4 days for us to give them feedback in change. Or, in more realistic terms, we are absolutely stuck with the changes they make for the next 6 months with no chance to give them feedback on how those changes might affect us. All this, despite the fact that we were voted highly in need of changes, and their track record of making highly questionable changes to the profession (or do we need to bring up Dumbfire again?).

Anet, you need to make better choices about stuff like this. I don’t care about being last, someone has to be, but you can’t give absolutely no time for feedback in addition to that.

Bhawb, I think you mistake the “preview” for feedback solicitation. The changes have probably been in the works since the last major balance patch results and were likely close to finalized weeks ago. It sux but the time for input is long past.

PS: I think we agree that Anet has consistently done the unexpected and often unhelpful in balance patches. Therefore, I am not holding my breath thinking they may actually make changes based on the forum feedback but miracles happen, even if they are exceedingly rare by definition.

Anchoku.8142:

Bhawb.7408:

Mark Katzbach.9084:

We’ll be covering mesmer and elementalist this week.

Basically, Necromancer is on the very last preview. Meaning, there is a whopping 4 days for us to give them feedback in change. Or, in more realistic terms, we are absolutely stuck with the changes they make for the next 6 months with no chance to give them feedback on how those changes might affect us. All this, despite the fact that we were voted highly in need of changes, and their track record of making highly questionable changes to the profession (or do we need to bring up Dumbfire again?).

Anet, you need to make better choices about stuff like this. I don’t care about being last, someone has to be, but you can’t give absolutely no time for feedback in addition to that.

Bhawb, I think you mistake the “preview” for feedback solicitation. The changes have probably been in the works since the last major balance patch results and were likely close to finalized weeks ago. It sux but the time for input is long past.

PS: I think we agree that Anet has consistently done the unexpected and often unhelpful in balance patches. Therefore, I am not holding my breath thinking they may actually make changes based on the forum feedback but miracles happen, even if they are exceedingly rare by definition.

No, Bhawb is mistaking ANet’s statements saying that the videos were being released as they were so there was time for discussion and feedback in between for thinking they want time for discussion and feedback.

Wait…

You are right. I have no idea why they do preview videos instead of just listing the changes on the day of the update.

Because, as they stated, they want some feedback about the changes they’re making. Sometimes a change they’re making turns out to not be so good and the forums can come up with a better one that accomplishes the same goal. Letting us know what’s on the way, both builds up anticipation and helps them determine what makes for a better game.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Because, as they stated, they want some feedback about the changes they’re making. Sometimes a change they’re making turns out to not be so good and the forums can come up with a better one that accomplishes the same goal. Letting us know what’s on the way, both builds up anticipation and helps them determine what makes for a better game.

This is why. Especially with such long downtimes between patches, its important that they get a chance for people to go WHOA WHOA WHOA, NO before a patch hits. Its worked in our favor before (Weakening Shroud), its worked in all player favor already with this pack (commander tags) so I think its reasonable to say. That isn’t to say they’ll suddenly hear a bit of feedback and by the time we hit patch day everything is different, but a simple number tweak here or there is perfectly reasonable, and something they could accomplish as a result of feedback, that will help us all.

The reality is they do listen to us. They’ve listened to us a whole lot. That doesn’t mean we ended up with better content (dhumbfire) but at the very least they read over the forums and other sources of communication, and consider things.

What the two of you are saying does sound perfectly reasonable. If a couple of months of feedback on the new grandmaster traits and a few months on SoV is enough time to tweak some numbers, we should see some changes, there, but response to preview video will have a lot less time for adjustment. Let’s just count on changes to the new grandmasters and SoV, then throw in the new weapons we requested, and cleave, which is already announced, and see what happens.

Its also pretty pointless to have a preview 4 days before the actual patch. May aswell just not preview the last two classes.

They did say that they are re-doing axe animations. That could mean changes to how the skills mechanically work.

We won’t have 4 days. We will have 1,5 day. Anet does not work on weekends.

We have nothing, the decision was taken, is a preview, not a CDI.

Well apparently the next Ready Up will also be next week. So we have 11 days. Thats definately more reasonable.

spoj.9672:

Well apparently the next Ready Up will also be next week. So we have 11 days. Thats definately more reasonable.

Wut, they’ve heard our rallying cry? Mind sharing the source ?

Josh Davis.6015:

The next Ready Up after tomorrow’s will actually be next week – we’re going two weeks back to back. This will give you ample time to sign-up ahead of time and request a roster change if you feel that it is necessary.

Rym.1469:

spoj.9672:

Well apparently the next Ready Up will also be next week. So we have 11 days. Thats definately more reasonable.

Wut, they’ve heard our rallying cry? Mind sharing the source ?

Sounds like the reason was moreso the other people who had concerns about team composition for the upcoming tourney following the balance changes. It’s possible that someone considered the arguments in this thread but the weight of organizing a tournament seems more likely the cause.

HaHa,

and the same time arenanet makes this post:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Communicating-with-you

Really, you are so troll, hahahaha

nekretaal.6485:

They did say that they are re-doing axe animations. That could mean changes to how the skills mechanically work.

Lol

Lily.1935:

The Necromancer has a long standing history of causing trouble for Arena net. They did it in GW1 with minions, soul reaping, and suicide bombers and they do it with Death shroud in GW2.

I don’t expect our problems to be addressed for another year.

atleast we were still good in the end of GW1, GW2 we’re trash all around