Guild Wars 2

I’ve been scouring the internet for a study done on this, but the best study thus far included every class except for necromancer..

I have 2 things I’ve been wondering:

1. In a span of, say, 60 seconds, does necro DPS max out in a condition spec, or a power spec?

and

2. How does necro DPS in its max spec compare to the max possible DPS in other classes?

If you guys have ideas, thoughts, impressions, I would gladly like to hear them. If there’s no concrete study done on this I’m considering doing my own because Ithink this would contribute a lot to the necromancer community.

1. Berserk always deal more DPS than a condi spec dosnt matter the class.
2. Necro dps is still on good medium stage.

Problem is just he dont have any offensive, defensive or utility support, just decent single dps….

1. Berzerker dagger power necro
2. Idk

1. Single target: power dagger, always. In a theoretical situation where you have 6 targets standing in a smallish radius that don’t die (basically 6 giant HP sponges), condition will massively out damage power in 60 seconds (epidemic).

But this highly depends on how long we’re talking about, and how many targets there are. Power will out DPS condi in any single target situation, and then if you look at AoE you have to consider if targets will die quickly (power wins out), if piercing life blast will hit all three targets (power wins again), or if there are enough targets that don’t die to consistently allow you to hit AoE limits on every ability. Condi basically only wins when you have enough targets to be hitting AoE constantly and then epidemic’ing off.

2. I believe dagger has the third highest DPS of any weapon in the game, behind a Warrior (axe I think?) and Guardian (no idea) weapon, but I’m not sure how that DPS works out when you look at actual content. But you have very competitive DPS in PvE situations.

Velgor.4528:

1. Berserk always deal more DPS than a condi spec dosnt matter the class.
2. Necro dps is still on good medium stage.

Problem is just he dont have any offensive, defensive or utility support, just decent single dps….

I do think the Necro has a lot of access to offensive support, and some access to defensive support. In fact, I think the Necro’s specialty is offensive support.

The necro even in Berzerk form can have access to blind, cripple, chill, weakness, and fear, all in dependable, AoE form; these are defensive suppport. In terms of defensive support through boons: has access to heals, regeneration, and the best teamwide condition cleanses / control — all possible in Berzerk form.

Necro offensive support is mostly cripple, immobilize, chill, fear — and tons and tons of dependable vulnerability.

I think a lot of people overlook the necro as a powerful support because most people are used to more obvious forms of support such as healing and boons. But support is just as effective in the form of disabling your opponents — if they can’t do anything, you don’t take any damage. I think the necro is the class that embodies the saying “The best defense is a powerful offense”.

Domzz.1260:

I do think the Necro has a lot of access to offensive support, and some access to defensive support. In fact, I think the Necro’s specialty is offensive support.

The necro even in Berzerk form can have access to blind, cripple, chill, weakness, and fear, all in dependable, AoE form; these are defensive suppport. In terms of defensive support through boons: has access to heals, regeneration, and the best teamwide condition cleanses / control — all possible in Berzerk form.

Necro offensive support is mostly cripple, immobilize, chill, fear — and tons and tons of dependable vulnerability.

I think a lot of people overlook the necro as a powerful support because most people are used to more obvious forms of support such as healing and boons. But support is just as effective in the form of disabling your opponents — if they can’t do anything, you don’t take any damage. I think the necro is the class that embodies the saying “The best defense is a powerful offense”.

There isn’t a single form of meaningful support we can do that someone else can’t do better or in a better build while bringing equal or higher damage and unique support that we can’t do.

Bhawb.7408:

Domzz.1260:

I do think the Necro has a lot of access to offensive support, and some access to defensive support. In fact, I think the Necro’s specialty is offensive support.

The necro even in Berzerk form can have access to blind, cripple, chill, weakness, and fear, all in dependable, AoE form; these are defensive suppport. In terms of defensive support through boons: has access to heals, regeneration, and the best teamwide condition cleanses / control — all possible in Berzerk form.

Necro offensive support is mostly cripple, immobilize, chill, fear — and tons and tons of dependable vulnerability.

I think a lot of people overlook the necro as a powerful support because most people are used to more obvious forms of support such as healing and boons. But support is just as effective in the form of disabling your opponents — if they can’t do anything, you don’t take any damage. I think the necro is the class that embodies the saying “The best defense is a powerful offense”.

There isn’t a single form of meaningful support we can do that someone else can’t do better or in a better build while bringing equal or higher damage and unique support that we can’t do.

Not a single form huh? That’s a bold statement.

I disagree.

Its a factual statement. Necromancers are the worst profession in PvE, largely because we bring nothing no one else can’t do.

Conditions? All accessible by other professions, not to mention the fact that conditions are weak against bosses.
Best teamwide condition cleanses? I think you need to meet guardians.
Vulnerability? Something other professions do easily and through their auto attacks that nearly match our DPS.

People don’t overlook us because we have some hidden potential, we are just bad at support. This translates to literally every game mode withthe only exception being Plague in zergs.

Bhawb.7408:

Its a factual statement. Necromancers are the worst profession in PvE, largely because we bring nothing no one else can’t do.

Conditions? All accessible by other professions, not to mention the fact that conditions are weak against bosses.
Best teamwide condition cleanses? I think you need to meet guardians.
Vulnerability? Something other professions do easily and through their auto attacks that nearly match our DPS.

People don’t overlook us because we have some hidden potential, we are just bad at support. This translates to literally every game mode withthe only exception being Plague in zergs.

I disagree.

What you just said can be applied to any other class. The only things you can’t expect from necros are stealth, portaling, and reflection.

And while not only can we condition cleanse, but we can condition TRANSFER .

I like that necros have easy access to so many things without needing to specialize into one niche. Condition transfer, AoE buffs, controlling conditions, DPS, Zone control AoE — and all without specialization. Sure a guardian specced in purely healing can heal better, but that guardian has just lost out on everything else.

We can tranfer our conditions, not help the party^^Same with cleanse

Our condi-support party wide is limited to Well of Power and the new GM trait. Oh and Well of Blood+projectile finisher. Thing is, the reliable finishers (projectile and blast) are in our minion skills, which are rarely preferred.
No aoe boons, no reflects, no aegis. We have offensive support, blinds chills, epidemic, but thats not very useful in pve.

In my opinion necro has beautiful vuln application, ranger is too bursty and engi cant go easy above 20. With unyielding blast, well of suffering and focus 4, vuln stays very high.

Also Bhawb is an old-timer necro, he knows his stuff :P

Domzz.1260:

I disagree.

That’s fine, people used to disagree about the world being round. They were wrong then, and you’re wrong now.

Domzz.1260:

What you just said can be applied to any other class. The only things you can’t expect from necros are stealth, portaling, and reflection.

Also banners, spirit buffs, any AoE boon spam that isn’t regen, finishers in general, fire/water fields, conjured weapons, a few traits that throw out AoE stat increases, boon removal that isn’t in large bursts on long CDs… There is a lot we can’t do, and very little that we can that someone else can’t.

Domzz.1260:

And while not only can we condition cleanse, but we can condition TRANSFER .

Not directly from our allies to enemies, only from allies to ourselves then to enemies, by blowing our own condition removal in the process.

Domzz.1260:

I like that necros have easy access to so many things without needing to specialize into one niche. Condition transfer, AoE buffs, controlling conditions, DPS, Zone control AoE — and all without specialization. Sure a guardian specced in purely healing can heal better, but that guardian has just lost out on everything else.

Not at all true. A warrior can spec for full DPS and spam might, vulnerability, banners, and boost their own and their allies DPS better.

We don’t specialize into a niche because we don’t have one. Everyone else doesn’t specialize into a niche either. The only niche for PvE is damage, which coincidentally everyone else fills just as well as us while bringing better utility.

These are simply factual statements that can be backed up by any member of the “hardcore” PvE community. Go read the stickied thread at the top of our forums about PvE builds, go ask anyone who tries to set speed run records, we are literally the worst at providing utility to our team.

Feel free to list whatever game mode you want, if you’re going for a specific one. We have bad general utility in them all, the only reason we do well in WvW is because of how tanky we get in zergs or how much power AoE we can do, and in tPvP its our burst boon removal paired with very strong CC+condition damage. But even then, these aren’t necessarily unique things, they are just things we currently do better.

Pelopidas.2140:

We can tranfer our conditions, not help the party^^Same with cleanse

Our condi-support party wide is limited to Well of Power and the new GM trait. Oh and Well of Blood+projectile finisher. Thing is, the reliable finishers (projectile and blast) are in our minion skills, which are rarely preferred.
No aoe boons, no reflects, no aegis. We have offensive support, blinds chills, epidemic, but thats not very useful in pve.

In my opinion necro has beautiful vuln application, ranger is too bursty and engi cant go easy above 20. With unyielding blast, well of suffering and focus 4, vuln stays very high.

Also Bhawb is an old-timer necro, he knows his stuff :P

We can help the party and transfer the parties conditions — through things like Plague Signet and Staff 4. We also have AoE regeneration on very low CD.

Yeah we don’t have reflects or aegis, but nor do many other classes.

And length of time playing a class is meaningless. It’s about what the person can gather and whether or not the person stays on their toes and constantly considers and adopts new perspectives and outlooks.

That’s actually a major problem in life too.

Bhawb.7408:

Domzz.1260:

I disagree.

That’s fine, people used to disagree about the world being round. They were wrong then, and you’re wrong now.

Domzz.1260:

What you just said can be applied to any other class. The only things you can’t expect from necros are stealth, portaling, and reflection.

Also banners, spirit buffs, any AoE boon spam that isn’t regen, finishers in general, fire/water fields, conjured weapons, a few traits that throw out AoE stat increases, boon removal that isn’t in large bursts on long CDs… There is a lot we can’t do, and very little that we can that someone else can’t.

Domzz.1260:

And while not only can we condition cleanse, but we can condition TRANSFER .

Not directly from our allies to enemies, only from allies to ourselves then to enemies, by blowing our own condition removal in the process.

Domzz.1260:

I like that necros have easy access to so many things without needing to specialize into one niche. Condition transfer, AoE buffs, controlling conditions, DPS, Zone control AoE — and all without specialization. Sure a guardian specced in purely healing can heal better, but that guardian has just lost out on everything else.

Not at all true. A warrior can spec for full DPS and spam might, vulnerability, banners, and boost their own and their allies DPS better.

We don’t specialize into a niche because we don’t have one. Everyone else doesn’t specialize into a niche either. The only niche for PvE is damage, which coincidentally everyone else fills just as well as us while bringing better utility.

These are simply factual statements that can be backed up by any member of the “hardcore” PvE community. Go read the stickied thread at the top of our forums about PvE builds, go ask anyone who tries to set speed run records, we are literally the worst at providing utility to our team.

Feel free to list whatever game mode you want, if you’re going for a specific one. We have bad general utility in them all, the only reason we do well in WvW is because of how tanky we get in zergs or how much power AoE we can do, and in tPvP its our burst boon removal paired with very strong CC+condition damage. But even then, these aren’t necessarily unique things, they are just things we currently do better.

You just named a bunch of class-specific traits. Of course necromancers don’t have banners nor spirit weapons, but neither do eles, engineers, or any other classes except for the single class that has those.

Your arguments are stale and you’re recycling the same statements, your only standing excuse being that others on the forum have said so.

Necromancers do have a niche, and that niche is control through conditions and zones.

As far as I’m concerned, Necromancer DPS is nearly the same as Warriors, who have the highest DPS. We are missing on cleave and AoE might, but we make up for that with AoE wells, torment, and incredible vulnerability stacking — persistent 20% increased damage from all sources on a boss is nothing to scoff at, especially when it comes paired with spammable weakness, blind, chill, and cripple.

As for trash mobs, those are easily taken care of through wells, Death Shroud mechanics, and retaliation / fast burning down through targets.

If you are looking for a niched group where your collective goal is to have perma 25-might stacks with squishy zerkers, then yeah sure go with your warriors, though they’ll also be missing out on easy vulnerability stacking if they’re hoping to keep up their DPS, while also suffering from being locked in at close range.

You said the mass of the world used to think the world was flat — then shortly after, sourced me to the mass of the “PvE community”.

You state “facts”, yet haven’t taken the time to think through them yourself — you would fit in grandly in the olden flat-worled days.

If you’re going to pick an argument, take some time to think it through :/

Domzz.1260:

Velgor.4528:

1. Berserk always deal more DPS than a condi spec dosnt matter the class.
2. Necro dps is still on good medium stage.

Problem is just he dont have any offensive, defensive or utility support, just decent single dps….

I do think the Necro has a lot of access to offensive support, and some access to defensive support. In fact, I think the Necro’s specialty is offensive support.

The necro even in Berzerk form can have access to blind, cripple, chill, weakness, and fear, all in dependable, AoE form; these are defensive suppport. In terms of defensive support through boons: has access to heals, regeneration, and the best teamwide condition cleanses / control — all possible in Berzerk form.

Necro offensive support is mostly cripple, immobilize, chill, fear — and tons and tons of dependable vulnerability.

I think a lot of people overlook the necro as a powerful support because most people are used to more obvious forms of support such as healing and boons. But support is just as effective in the form of disabling your opponents — if they can’t do anything, you don’t take any damage. I think the necro is the class that embodies the saying “The best defense is a powerful offense”.

offensive support: you shouln’t count cripple, immobilize, chill, fear as offensive support (PvE) and for vulnerability… there are other classes wich can deal them far better.

defensive support: necro isn’t the best team condi cleaner in the game, he just has a wall and the new trait for it (our signet sucks here).
Yeah necro may the best class for all no damage condi like chill, cripple, immobilize, fear, posion, and weakness, but sadly PvE dont need these…

And for the guy who said Warrior has the best dps …. no.. he doesn’t.

With all due respect to experienced Necromancers (which is why you are acutely aware of the Profession’s group play “deficiencies”), if one just went with “what is more efficient” in groups, one wouldn’t even play a few Professions. There’s a time for not giving in to meta play if it won’t let you enjoy the Necro Profession over ill-placed feelings of “selfishness” for not being as efficient as a Guardian, Warrior, Ranger, et al.

I am afraid Necromancers aren’t supposed to be like the other Professions, which for better or worse means it may never escape its current PvE speed clear status. It’s important to note, however, that GW2 isn’t a speed run unless you boil it down to that FOR YOURSELF, which is also fine.

My point is not saying that the Necromancer is “as useful” as any other Profession for speedruns, but rather that it doesn’t matter if you aren’t speed running in the first place-and when you don’t care about that, they can be useful indeed to the right kind of group, and do bring unique stuff, whether it’s “required” by the content or not.

Finally, I do not mean to “debunk” the “facts” about Necromancers being less optimal for speed runs, but unfortunately we are confusing PvE for speed runs-Necromancers are great for any content in the game, just not optimal for min/maxers. Play what you like, not what you are “supposed” to play if it’s not fun for you (which is not to mean you should join a LFG that specifically states they do not want Necromancers, as people have their rights as well as you do to play how they want.) PvE =/= speed runs, thus making the “Necro is bad for PvE” little more than a half-truth.

Star Ace.5207:

With all due respect to experienced Necromancers (which is why you are acutely aware of the Profession’s group play “deficiencies”), if one just went with “what is more efficient” in groups, one wouldn’t even play a few Professions. There’s a time for not giving in to meta play if it won’t let you enjoy the Necro Profession over ill-placed feelings of “selfishness” for not being as efficient as a Guardian, Warrior, Ranger, et al.

I am afraid Necromancers aren’t supposed to be like the other Professions, which for better or worse means it may never escape its current PvE speed clear status. It’s important to note, however, that GW2 isn’t a speed run unless you boil it down to that FOR YOURSELF, which is also fine.

My point is not saying that the Necromancer is “as useful” as any other Profession for speedruns, but rather that it doesn’t matter if you aren’t speed running in the first place-and when you don’t care about that, they can be useful indeed to the right kind of group, and do bring unique stuff, whether it’s “required” by the content or not.

Finally, I do not mean to “debunk” the “facts” about Necromancers being less optimal for speed runs, but unfortunately we are confusing PvE for speed runs-Necromancers are great for any content in the game, just not optimal for min/maxers. Play what you like, not what you are “supposed” to play if it’s not fun for you (which is not to mean you should join a LFG that specifically states they do not want Necromancers, as people have their rights as well as you do to play how they want.) PvE =/= speed runs, thus making the “Necro is bad for PvE” little more than a half-truth.

+1.

And to add on, I’ve seen a number of speed clears done with 4 necros and 1 X as opposed to 4 warriors 1X in the exact same time.

It really boils down to organization and expertise. More people just play warrior, and it’s a far simpler class, that’s why you see so many speed runners hoarding warriors.

Nothing is impossible and laziness is not an excuse to dismiss a class.

Real speedruner dont go 4 warriors 1 X…
(we digressed from the topic a little bit now)

Lol ok. There was a challenge on the dungeon forums about the unholy trinity. Some guildmates of mine decided to try and take the win. Heres the result:

http://www.twitch.tv/sylarscreed/c/4432054

Bare in mind a proper speed run with an optimized party should get around 11-12 minutes. A warrior can solo the path in about 25 minutes. These classes are less popular in speedruns because they have serious deficiencies in organised group content. Its as simple as that. This probably wont change until anet introduce new utility skills and weapons and even then i question their direction considering the new grandmaster traits we recieved.

Ranger could be very good with a few changes (mainly sword auto). Engi is a pug class which provides a bit of everything but lacks the dps and unique utility to bring it into a speedrun. Necro simply doesnt have anything going in its favour for a speedrun. You can play one well and you wont slow the run down too much. But you sure as hell arent contributing anywhere near as much as other classes can.

But to answer the op’s original question. In a fully buffed setting (being carried by teammates) a necro has the upper average of single target dps. It only properly loses out to the monstrous dps of thief and ele.

so glad too see another person using the little rats as much as i do

If you remove any “competitive”-ness out of it, then you might as well say there is no reason to not run Magi’s with a completely randomized set of weapons/traits/runes/sigils/utilities. The fact is sure, the game is about having fun. You know what isn’t fun? Having to run a boss that should be dying in 30 seconds because someone is running an absolutely inane build.

Yes you can just have fun with Necromancer, I am a big advocate of that. But that is just an excuse when we’re talking about things completely unrelated to it. Even if you are having fun, it still remains that Necromancers don’t bring any unique utility, and by brushing that under the carpet in favor of “fun”, we deny that it exists and don’t do our due diligence of bringing it up so ANet can fix it.

Star Ace.5207:

I am afraid Necromancers aren’t supposed to be like the other Professions, which for better or worse means it may never escape its current PvE speed clear status. It’s important to note, however, that GW2 isn’t a speed run unless you boil it down to that FOR YOURSELF, which is also fine.

Necromancers can still be all dark and emo and special and everything you love about playing the profession without being the worst profession to take in PvE. Orders, an AoE buff that no one else would have, could give us unique utility. Traits that gave allies our life steal, minions that had better traiting like I proposed in the balance forums, a reworking of our defensive mechanics, there are a lot of ways they could still let us be unique and not necessarily force us to be like other people, but still allow us our own niche, just like everyone else has.

You all want balancing and buffs, that’s understandable.

That doesn’t mean the class is not viable nor does it mean the class does not bring anything to the table.

The people who say so are following mindless trends.

Wells have great support abilities if you know how to.use them, boon removal, condi cleanse, even damage, healing (allies included)

I’m ganna toy with one.of.my builds, make it have mad support abilities, we will.

Bhawb.7408:

If you remove any “competitive”-ness out of it, then you might as well say there is no reason to not run Magi’s with a completely randomized set of weapons/traits/runes/sigils/utilities. The fact is sure, the game is about having fun. You know what isn’t fun? Having to run a boss that should be dying in 30 seconds because someone is running an absolutely inane build.

Yes you can just have fun with Necromancer, I am a big advocate of that. But that is just an excuse when we’re talking about things completely unrelated to it. Even if you are having fun, it still remains that Necromancers don’t bring any unique utility, and by brushing that under the carpet in favor of “fun”, we deny that it exists and don’t do our due diligence of bringing it up so ANet can fix it.

Star Ace.5207:

I am afraid Necromancers aren’t supposed to be like the other Professions, which for better or worse means it may never escape its current PvE speed clear status. It’s important to note, however, that GW2 isn’t a speed run unless you boil it down to that FOR YOURSELF, which is also fine.

Necromancers can still be all dark and emo and special and everything you love about playing the profession without being the worst profession to take in PvE. Orders, an AoE buff that no one else would have, could give us unique utility. Traits that gave allies our life steal, minions that had better traiting like I proposed in the balance forums, a reworking of our defensive mechanics, there are a lot of ways they could still let us be unique and not necessarily force us to be like other people, but still allow us our own niche, just like everyone else has.

To be honest, ANet is not forced to make changes to make all Professions fit perfectly for speedclear metas. That’s only one way to play the game, not the only one. Even they laughed at the idea that the best support is maximum DPS (even though it’s their problem to solve.) Thing is you seem to find speedclear metas fun, but not 100% players are like that, and that’s why we have so many viable builds that may not fit speedruns in any way or fashion.

I will be the first to applaud Necromancer having better team support, but hopefully not in the way of some Professions like the Ranger, in which only one darn build is “wanted” for speedclear runs (nothing against Ranger, and I used that build before it was all “meta”, so the build is fine, but the lack of variety isn’t). I have all but given up in the idea that in order for Professions to be good at PvE, they must be the fastest ones to run with. It kills too many other possible builds for players, and it’s annoying that some player that doesn’t know your character calls you “selfish” for not playing the way he wants (the idea that players are being selfish for using what’s fun for them is practically irrational-it’s the other people who are being selfish for wanting that player to play their way to suit their needs.)

And having fun builds =/= bad builds. People have fun with the most efficient builds, but some people do have fun with effective builds that just may not be as fast. I never go out of my way to create a build that sucks in any of my characters, even though I realize what the weakness of the build may be (not every player sees the game as a min/maxing endeavor… and to be honest, I “min/max” myself under my own rules, not those of anyone else’s.)

I do not mean to counter your Necromancer improvement agenda, which is why I seemingly upset you, but to say that Necromancer is bad for PvE is simply a bad generalization. This is not meant as an attack or personal slight, as I don’t know you or anyone in these forums. Group play could be improved indeed, but they can do great things for groups-just so happens that it’s not things that generally meta people have any use for.

Playing for fun doesn’t mean you are bad or that you will use an “inane” build. Don’t speedrunners play for fun as well (their own kind)? There’s more than black and white.

Again I ask, why play Necromancer when only efficiency matters? Then don’t play it at all (although I myself would not be a “righteous” bully and call anyone selfish for using Ranger/Necromancer/Engineer.) I know you like the Profession, so if you follow your own logic, you shouldn’t event touch Necromancer anymore (though I assume all you mean to say is “ANet, improve Necromancer” when you say that they are “bad for PvE”, and again, I do not intend to negate those wishes.)

Take care; not worthy of being exasperated over a game, and I hope I am not making you angry.

alamore.1974:

Wells have great support abilities if you know how to.use them, boon removal, condi cleanse, even damage, healing (allies included)

I’m ganna toy with one.of.my builds, make it have mad support abilities, we will.

How much of those support options mean anything at all in PvE?

Conditions and boons are scarce in PvE. Boons are even worse because when they do show up, they are spammed with such frequency that removal means nothing. So, that’s two of the strongest points for necros that ultimately mean jack squat.

Then there’s weakness/blind/chill/and control in general. The only things worth using them on are the bosses which are effectively immune to everything but chill and many of the bosses show no real effect from chill. Control builds period are a waste in PvE because of horrid boss design. That’s a third necro strong point that is worthless in PvE.

Necro group healing is very strong. I will happily admit that. It’s also unnecessary in PvE because it is so easy to take very little damage anyway. Point #4 gone.

Now we get to damage. Fun fact: Necros are not top-tier DPS. Our single target capabilities might be great, but the complete lack of cleave means that we don’t handle trash mobs that well on power builds. Condition builds, the trash mobs melt, but the bosses are a really rough time because their “defenses” favor Power so much more heavily.

So, out of numerous strong points that a Necro has to offer, only one of them is even relevant for PvE, and the necro is not the top in that area either. Why bring a Necro that does the third highest single target DPS when you could bring a Warrior that brings the fourth highest single target, second highest AoE, and still brings group buffing to boost everyone up higher?

Domzz.1260:

We can help the party and transfer the parties conditions — through things like Plague Signet and Staff 4. We also have AoE regeneration on very low CD.

Just wanted to point out that Staff #4 does not transfer conditions from nearby allies anymore, only yourself. And Plague Signet is 1 condition transferred every 3 secs.

1. hybrid, trait 2% more dmg per condi on target + high crit chance and crit dmg will net you quite alot of damage. Just hard to find the right balance while trying hybrid. Had a hybrid build hit 8k dmg + 1-2 k condi per second. But that’s under ideal circumstances, max might stacks, max vulnerability stacks etc.

2. Minion Dagger zerker necro can out dps a dagger thief easy. Did it several times with a friend of mine against two thieves, all zerker and we ripped ‘m apart. Didn’t lose more than 20% hp during the fight eithers so the difference in hp nor their higher armor made a difference.

If I were to rate it (I’ll leave out mesmer because of lack of experience).
Elementalist (staff/conjures)
Necromancer (Lich form-zerker)
Warrior (axe max crit dmg; 234%, 85% crit chance)
Engineer (rifle burst build can easily do 20-30k dmg in a couple seconds.)
Thief/meditation zerker guardian.
Ranger… Since I have yet to find a decent dps build for ’m I put ’m last based on my own experience with ’m.

Thief and Ele are the two highest single-target DPS. Necro is #3 after them. I think Warrior is actually #5 after mesmer, but for AoE, they’re #2 (after Ele). Necro jumps up to #2 if he’s using Lich Form, but otherwise is down significantly lower.

While Ele has the highest DPS both on single target and AoE, they do have to swap weapons out of combat. A single target DPS build is pretty lousy at AoE and vice-versa.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

alamore.1974:

Wells have great support abilities if you know how to.use them, boon removal, condi cleanse, even damage, healing (allies included)

I’m ganna toy with one.of.my builds, make it have mad support abilities, we will.

How much of those support options mean anything at all in PvE?

Conditions and boons are scarce in PvE. Boons are even worse because when they do show up, they are spammed with such frequency that removal means nothing. So, that’s two of the strongest points for necros that ultimately mean jack squat.

Then there’s weakness/blind/chill/and control in general. The only things worth using them on are the bosses which are effectively immune to everything but chill and many of the bosses show no real effect from chill. Control builds period are a waste in PvE because of horrid boss design. That’s a third necro strong point that is worthless in PvE.

Necro group healing is very strong. I will happily admit that. It’s also unnecessary in PvE because it is so easy to take very little damage anyway. Point #4 gone.

Now we get to damage. Fun fact: Necros are not top-tier DPS. Our single target capabilities might be great, but the complete lack of cleave means that we don’t handle trash mobs that well on power builds. Condition builds, the trash mobs melt, but the bosses are a really rough time because their “defenses” favor Power so much more heavily.

So, out of numerous strong points that a Necro has to offer, only one of them is even relevant for PvE, and the necro is not the top in that area either. Why bring a Necro that does the third highest single target DPS when you could bring a Warrior that brings the fourth highest single target, second highest AoE, and still brings group buffing to boost everyone up higher?

I don’t pve unless you count WvW(I dont)
Yes.necros are top Cept in health pool, we deal less damage but with more health, we have.weak support but with more health, we ain’t even top on condi spam…but.more health,

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Thief and Ele are the two highest single-target DPS. Necro is #3 after them. I think Warrior is actually #5 after mesmer, but for AoE, they’re #2 (after Ele). Necro jumps up to #2 if he’s using Lich Form, but otherwise is down significantly lower.

While Ele has the highest DPS both on single target and AoE, they do have to swap weapons out of combat. A single target DPS build is pretty lousy at AoE and vice-versa.

oh my kitten are you serious? warrior dps vastly outshines necromancers. ele actually has some of the lowest dps, but highest potential dps. yes there’s a difference. necromancers have what, an autoattack chain? and going glass cannon build on daggers is the worst idea ever outside of pve. axe provides the best offensive support, and the best damage burst that we get, which for most necros isn’t even that much.

Lightsbane.9012:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Thief and Ele are the two highest single-target DPS. Necro is #3 after them. I think Warrior is actually #5 after mesmer, but for AoE, they’re #2 (after Ele). Necro jumps up to #2 if he’s using Lich Form, but otherwise is down significantly lower.

While Ele has the highest DPS both on single target and AoE, they do have to swap weapons out of combat. A single target DPS build is pretty lousy at AoE and vice-versa.

oh my kitten are you serious? warrior dps vastly outshines necromancers. ele actually has some of the lowest dps, but highest potential dps. yes there’s a difference. necromancers have what, an autoattack chain? and going glass cannon build on daggers is the worst idea ever outside of pve. axe provides the best offensive support, and the best damage burst that we get, which for most necros isn’t even that much.

Not true. Axe provides nothing but vuln and burst life force generation. Dagger is more burst than axe 2 and its not even a burst weapon.

Warrior dps only outshines other classes in a solo setting. Ele has the highest dps in almost all situations. Necro will most often be bottom dps because they are selfish and lack reliable self buffing but if they are carried by group buffs they actually provide higher dps than most classes except for ele and thief.

And this thread isnt about whats viable and not viable in different gametypes. It was simply asking about max dps (most likely for pve). So dagger is relevant to the discussion even though its not as reliable in a pvp setting.