Guild Wars 2

problems solved – gg wp

PvE necromancer is fine… it was always fine, after the recent buffs i would say it’s very good… even using power build.

Hybrid was always strong, now it’s stronger… conditionmancer was always strong… now it might be even stronger.

Nemesis.8593:

PvE necromancer is fine… it was always fine, after the recent buffs i would say it’s very good… even using power build.

Hybrid was always strong, now it’s stronger… conditionmancer was always strong… now it might be even stronger.

Its not fine. Necromancer is the only class which is a complete leech in dungeons. We also have very limited surivability. Its even worse now that DS cant be used to absorb insta kill hits when we run out of dodges.

Every other class can provide something unique or do something which helps the team and they dont need to be babysat to survive. Warriors have high dps and boons and banner buffs for team. Guardians have decent dps and plenty of group boons, defense and reflect. Mesmers have bad dps but loads of utility and boon sharing. Rangers have boons, frost spirit and spotter. Thief has very high single target dps and stealth. Engineer has decent dps and ability to stack might and vuln incredibly fast. Eles have huge amounts of support and boon sharing, they also have a lot of debuffs and can do huge dps with LH. Necro has sub par dps and debuffs which can be done better by other classes with less selfish builds. Not to mention debuffs like weakness and chill are pretty much pointless in pve. Also necro’s lack of blast finishers makes it a bit difficult to stack might in fire fields.

they are fine until you can get one of those instead: warrior, guardian, mesmer, ele, thief

Not sure about rangers and engineers but I’d probably pick those over necros as well.

spoj.9672:

Nemesis.8593:

PvE necromancer is fine… it was always fine, after the recent buffs i would say it’s very good… even using power build.

Hybrid was always strong, now it’s stronger… conditionmancer was always strong… now it might be even stronger.

Its not fine. Necromancer is the only class which is a complete leech in dungeons. We also have very limited surivability. Its even worse now that DS cant be used to absorb insta kill hits when we run out of dodges.

Every other class can provide something unique or do something which helps the team and they dont need to be babysat to survive. Warriors have high dps and boons and banner buffs for team. Guardians have decent dps and plenty of group boons, defense and reflect. Mesmers have bad dps but loads of utility and boon sharing. Rangers have boons, frost spirit and spotter. Thief has very high single target dps and stealth. Engineer has decent dps and ability to stack might and vuln incredibly fast. Eles have huge amounts of support and boon sharing, they also have a lot of debuffs and can do huge dps with LH. Necro has sub par dps and debuffs which can be done better by other classes with less selfish builds. Not to mention debuffs like weakness and chill are pretty much pointless in pve. Also necro’s lack of blast finishers makes it a bit difficult to stack might in fire fields.

I’ve done about 20 CoF p1 fast runs the past week. Tried a very great number of variation of 3 necromancers + 1 mesmer + something… 3 necromancers + 1 mesmer + 1 berserker guardian buffer actually performed really bad, followed closely by warrior with banners…

Having a buffer in your team in speed runs is overrated… about 10-15 test runs… facts… do not lie.
As soon as i get a proper 4th necromancer, and a true berserker mesmer i will do the CoF p1 fast run the proper way.
If i manage to match the warrior time (after nerf) will you believe me then ?…

Hint: we’re already under 6 minutes even as we are…

Weakness and chill is far from pointless in PvE if you play support, going to roll out my new support build in the coming weeks…

Weakness + chill is actually amazing, arguably as good as elementalist’s heal… there’s more then one way to support in this game, you can heal half HP of the group, or you can cut the damage the group takes in half. That is all i will say for now.

I’m surprised you dislike the necromancer so much…

Erzian.5218:

they are fine until you can get one of those instead: warrior, guardian, mesmer, ele, thief

Not sure about rangers and engineers but I’d probably pick those over necros as well.

Ironically this is what a poster on the ranger forums thinks. The topic being if being a Ranger means auto kick from dungeon party.

Ezeriel.9574:

I’d still kick a necro in a heartbeat. Engineers are kinda iffy.

..but a longbow ranger, with a ranged pet and bear, would be welcome in my groups.

But I don’t want it to seem like I’m taking things out of context so feel free to check this thread out

That said, a great deal of people think Necromancers are fine for dungeon, if you absolutely can’t fill the last spot with any other profession. Aka together with Engis and Rangers we’re last resort options.

I told you when we did the first attempt at cof p1 before the patch that you dont start the time when the gate opens you start when everyone enters the dungeon. The record is 5mins and 27 seconds from the start of the dungeon and that was with 1war/2thief/1mes/1ranger. Its under 5minutes from the gate opening if you are adamant on counting from that point.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Ranger-VS-The-CoF-World-Record

You wont come close because necro’s cant stack 25 stacks of might instantly on their own and the unique damage buffs from banners and frost spirit have a huge impact on dps. Theres a reason necro’s arent used in speedruns, they dont provide anything that improves time. Infact they slow the run down if you replace a class which does provide a speed increase. If you want to go for a record time with a necro you shouldnt have anymore than 1 necro in the team.

I dont dislike the necromancer, infact its my favourite class to play. But I refuse to delude myself in thinking its a good class in pve. Theres nothing a necromancer provides which other classes cant. The one thing we do have that is semi useful is blind spam for damage mitigation. But guardians, thiefs and eles can do that and more, so i repeat theres no reason to take a necro.

spoj.9672:

I told you when we did the first attempt at cof p1 before the patch that you dont start the time when the gate opens you start when everyone enters the dungeon. The record is 5mins and 27 seconds from the start of the dungeon and that was with 1war/2thief/1mes/1ranger. Its under 5minutes from the gate opening if you are adamant on counting from that point.

You wont come close because necro’s cant stack 25 stacks of might instantly on their own and the unique damage buffs from banners and frost spirit have a huge impact on dps. Theres a reason necro’s arent used in speedruns, they dont provide anything that improves time. Infact they slow the run down if you replace a class which does provide a speed increase. If you want to go for a record time with a necro you shouldnt have anymore than 1 necro in the team.

I actually searched on youtube for the current fastest run… i can’t find anywhere anything 5:27 that starts from the entrance. 90% of the recordings out there start from the second gate, from where i started last time.

I also want to see the new fastest time… since warrior DPS got nerfed, and when you have 4 of them, it matters…

Can you link me the 5:27 second run ? Searching for it does me no good.
Also if anyone knows what the time to beat is now after the warrior nerf…

PS: Not trying to beat warrior time… want to be within a 10-20 second distance interval +-, which i would then claim it is more or less irrelevant… let’s hope i will succeed.
If i won’t i’ll ask for buffs, if i do i’ve proven necromancers are not to be kicked… win win.

edit: right… seen it, so it’s like 4:30. Only 1 warrior though… but very impressive, very very impressive.
I’ll do my best…

I stopped reading when you mention support in pve. Why would you need to support if mobs are dead before they can damage you? Why would you bring support if the boss is gonna one shot you if you miss dodge?

Nemesis.8593:

I actually searched on youtube for the current fastest run… i can’t find anywhere anything 5:27 that starts from the entrance. 90% of the recordings out there start from the second gate, from where i started last time.

I also want to see the new fastest time… since warrior DPS got nerfed, and when you have 4 of them, it matters…

Can you link me the 5:27 second run ? Searching for it does me no good.
Also if anyone knows what the time to beat is now after the warrior nerf…

PS: Not trying to beat warrior time… want to be within a 10-20 second distance interval +-, which i would then claim it is more or less irrelevant… let’s hope i will succeed.
If i won’t i’ll ask for buffs, if i do i’ve proven necromancers are not to be kicked… win win.

Thread

Youtube video

Yeah sorry forgot to link it in that post, ive edited it in. Cant find the old record but it was 2wars/2thiefs/1mes and was like 5mins 40 seconds or something.

Afya.5842:

I stopped reading when you mention support in pve. Why would you need to support if mobs are dead before they can damage you? Why would you bring support if the boss is gonna one shot you if you miss dodge?

I speculate you are the kind of person that would take 4 berserker warriors and 1 berserker mesmer in dredge fractal 49…
Not me, no thank you… i chose life.

Nemesis.8593:

Afya.5842:

I stopped reading when you mention support in pve. Why would you need to support if mobs are dead before they can damage you? Why would you bring support if the boss is gonna one shot you if you miss dodge?

I speculate you are the kind of person that would take 4 berserker warriors and 1 berserker mesmer in dredge fractal 49…
Not me, no thank you… i chose life.

Best group for that is 2 guards and 3 zerker warriors. Guards can be knights anchor and zerker dps or both zerker dps. Although most of the top dungeon running guilds always say 2guard/2wars and then final spot is flexible (although they prefer a warrior for more dps)

Nemesis.8593:

Afya.5842:

I stopped reading when you mention support in pve. Why would you need to support if mobs are dead before they can damage you? Why would you bring support if the boss is gonna one shot you if you miss dodge?

I speculate you are the kind of person that would take 4 berserker warriors and 1 berserker mesmer in dredge fractal 49…
Not me, no thank you… i chose life.

Who goes to fractal without any guardian……..

Afya.5842:

Nemesis.8593:

Afya.5842:

I stopped reading when you mention support in pve. Why would you need to support if mobs are dead before they can damage you? Why would you bring support if the boss is gonna one shot you if you miss dodge?

I speculate you are the kind of person that would take 4 berserker warriors and 1 berserker mesmer in dredge fractal 49…
Not me, no thank you… i chose life.

Who goes to fractal without any guardian……..

Actually I could be wrong about this but DS hinted in a thread recently that they take 5 warriors into fractal 79 lol. They dont bother with guards anymore they just go for pure dps. But the guys in DS are insanely good.

Few people keep saying some amazing things about other classes, can it all be true ? I checked many times for proof… i can never find any.
I’m not saying it’s not like they claim, i’m not saying it is… all i am saying is that 70% of the people online… hell 70% of the people in general exaggerate.

You saw that sometimes i defend the necromancer, sometimes i make suggestions to fix the necromancer… it’s not like i want to play a lie.
So… can anyone show me these amazing things ? I want to see them for myself, so i can have a comparison… have a starting point, an upper limit… you know…

Nemesis, I respect your contribution to the necro community. But you really should try a few more classes if you haven’t.

Necro axe 1 DS1 maybe seem good for vuln but warrior axe/mace is just faster doing so, only two buttons and it’s 8 stacks there. Some of it is aoe vuln. If vuln is not enough, you press a skill called on my mark and it puts 10 stack 10s vuln on target.

Warrior can do that without sacrificing dps because unlike necro’s axe, warrior one has cleave, and the auto attack damage is not kitten. Imagine necro dagger/focus with cleave.

Necro dagger’s dps really isn’t half bad. The problem is without cleave, we’re doing 1/3 of what others can do.

To fight lupi,
after two dodges, necro can use wurm to port.
DS2 port
DS to absorb hit pre-nerf
trait 30 to get DS stability for bubble

Same after two dodges, guardian:
focus 5 block
shield 5 projectile block
heal block
virtue aegis
vigor from trait
retreat aegis
elite invul
sword 2 teleport
Stand your ground stability

So judge yourself.

Afya.5842:

Nemesis, I respect your contribution to the necro community. But you really should try a few more classes if you haven’t.

Necro axe 1 DS1 maybe seem good for vuln but warrior axe/mace is just faster doing so, only two buttons and it’s 8 stacks there. Some of it is aoe vuln. If vuln is not enough, you press a skill called on my mark and it puts 10 stack 10s vuln on target.

Warrior can do that without sacrificing dps because unlike necro’s axe, warrior one has cleave, and the auto attack damage is not kitten. Imagine necro dagger/focus with cleave.

Necro dagger’s dps really isn’t half bad. The problem is without cleave, we’re doing 1/3 of what others can do.

To fight lupi,
after two dodges, necro can use wurm to port.
DS2 port
DS to absorb hit pre-nerf
trait 30 to get DS stability for bubble

Same after two dodges, guardian:
focus 5 block
shield 5 projectile block
heal block
virtue aegis
vigor from trait
retreat aegis
elite invul
sword 2 teleport
Stand your ground stability

So judge yourself.

Going into guardian as soon as i finish remaking some of my old videos.

Already made a very nice guardian tank build, well i think it’s nice… haven’t seen anyone use it… and i would know, because it has one key feature.
Either i’m really wrong… or… people don’t care about party tank-support, all they see is DPS DPS DPS.

Oh man i can’t wait to get some dungeons in which you absolutely can’t go without bunker or/and support…

You’re right… i haven’t played other classes much, i judge based on what i see… and what i see is in fractals mostly. I see useless mesmers… useless warriors… guardians with staff and shield that don’t put up a single wall, it’s a nightmare.
Not having anything against other classes… the necromancers i meat are horrible as well, every time i see a necromancer auto-attacking with staff in fractals i face palm.

It’s hard to get a field of things… i think i driven my guild insane with questions like “so how much DPS does your warrior do, what CD does your guardian have… how much does your elementalist heal ?”

All i see that 90% of the time i have a higher effectiveness then the people i am with…
This is not me bragging, just trying to make a point… if i am dead wrong about where the necromancer max potential is at compared to the other classes, it’s because of what i have observed.

Would be sad to find out other classes have more AoE sustained DPS then what i call a “forced conditionmancer”. Would be weird too… cause i never seen anyone ever doing more AoE damage then me when i play that spec. How i know ?… a few hundred fractals… maybe over thousand and a half.
Countless times i soloed a large group of mobs somewhere… and the rest of my team didn’t finish theirs by the time i finished mine.

I don’t know what to say more… really… in time i will play all classes, and i will try to contribute with feedback – negative/positive as i see fit.
Trying to keep it real.

Thats the problem. My guild is full of casual players aswell and even the ones who take beserker warriors are probably doing less than my beserker necro because they build wrong, take the wrong utilities and dont use the proper weapons or a proper dps rotation. Its a casual player thing, most of them are just bad or clueless. Heck im far from amazing but atleast i know how to maximise my dps potential and know all the mechanics. I still make amateur mistakes now and again though.

Not sure why there is always such a large debate over this.

ALL classes are viable in PvE.

The only difference is the time it takes to complete an instance and even then at worst what are you talking? 30second to a minute or two max for total completion?

That might even be going over board.

When I do a CoF 1 – If i do it in 6 minutes or I do it in 7 minutes or even 8 minutes. I don’t care and I truly don’t understand the games population being so fixated on this.

Azreell.1568:

Not sure why there is always such a large debate over this.

ALL classes are viable in PvE.

The only difference is the time it takes to complete an instance and even then at worst what are you talking? 30second to a minute or two max for total completion?

That might even be going over board.

When I do a CoF 1 – If i do it in 6 minutes or I do it in 7 minutes or even 8 minutes. I don’t care and I truly don’t understand the games population being so fixated on this.

When you look at longer dungeons the time difference is much larger. 10-15minute dungeon takes an hour for pug groups.

spoj.9672:

Azreell.1568:

Not sure why there is always such a large debate over this.

ALL classes are viable in PvE.

The only difference is the time it takes to complete an instance and even then at worst what are you talking? 30second to a minute or two max for total completion?

That might even be going over board.

When I do a CoF 1 – If i do it in 6 minutes or I do it in 7 minutes or even 8 minutes. I don’t care and I truly don’t understand the games population being so fixated on this.

When you look at longer dungeons the time difference is much larger. 10-15minute dungeon takes an hour for pug groups.

Afya.5842:

Who goes to fractal without any guardian……..

I do. We casually ran 77 two days ago with a warrior, a mesmer, two eles and a necro.

Went smooth, no wipes, grawl shaman especially; it’s my favourite fractal, because I can basically faceroll it with my necro.

Yet, but that’s just me, and you are you.

I’m all in for buffs but you guys demonizing the necro as it was some kind of useless abomination is really depressing.

And to be fair, it’s all in the design of dungeons. I’m eagerly waiting for a condition heavy dungeon or fractal where necros will shine even more due to their utilities.

Edit:
Ohh and before you bash me that my comparison is skewed because I play with bads… I played with [SOLO] players that day and they have probably the best PvE squad on EU-side. Hell, they have the almighty Wethospu (probably the best PvE warrior on the planet Earth) and Haviz.

leman.7682:

Afya.5842:

Who goes to fractal without any guardian……..

I do. We casually ran 77 two days ago with a warrior, a mesmer, two eles and a necro.

Went smooth, no wipes, grawl shaman especially; it’s my favourite fractal, because I can basically faceroll it with my necro.

Yet, but that’s just me, and you are you.

I’m all in for buffs but you guys demonizing the necro as it was some kind of useless abomination is really depressing.

And to be fair, it’s all in the design of dungeons. I’m eagerly waiting for a condition heavy dungeon or fractal where necros will shine even more due to their utilities.

Edit:
Ohh and before you bash me that my comparison is skewed because I play with bads… I played with [SOLO] players that day and they have probably the best PvE squad on EU-side. Hell, they have the almighty Wethospu (probably the best PvE warrior on the planet Earth) and Haviz.

Gj for you.

I won’t say necro is useless. But I still stand PVE is all about DPS and dodging. DPS wise we lack cleave so it’s 1/3. Dodge/damage neglect we don’t have much really. I don’t know how anyone can argue with these. Of course we can still complete any pve content, it’s just longer and less safe.

leman.7682:

Ohh and before you bash me that my comparison is skewed because I play with bads… I played with [SOLO] players that day and they have probably the best PvE squad on EU-side. Hell, they have the almighty Wethospu (probably the best PvE warrior on the planet Earth) and Haviz.

Im curious. What build do you run on your necro when doing fractals. Also was the necro a choice you guys made or you just werent fussed. If you guys did choose to take a necro, why? For blind and weakness?

Do you realise how much utility wells can help in high level fractals?
Do you realise how grosely powerful an optimised hybrid-condi comp with epidemic necro is?

Trust me, I’m not tossing those things out of my hat.

Sometimes I wish a dev came with a spreadsheet showing possible DPS. Maybe then people would believe.

To close any argument before it may rise – IMPORTANT, please READ
A necro is a profession that is designed with numerous drawbacks. It is a profession with the least diversity when it comes to combat/skill systems (from blocks, mobility, etc. to combo capabilities). It is so BY DESIGN. It isn’t going to change.

What is the outcome of this situation? A necromancer needs a team that is well composed around him. It’s also is relatively inefficient to stack necromancers because they don’t have the mentioned utility variation that would allow them to create viable comps of stacked necros.

It is probably going to stay, so don’t expect to be ever able to play 4 necros as 4 warriors, that’s not the point.

What may happen, though, ArenaNet gives us real dungeons (not zerker-hp-sponge dungeon-set aka all original explorable dungeons) where you CANNOT just tear through the trash and melee boss without moving. Where things like conditions, epidemic, condition management and transfers, blinds, boonhate are not only viable, but necessary.

This is what necros need. Not cleave, no mobility, etc (although I would welcome them with true love). I just realised these things are not happening but better dungeons are.

spoj.9672:

Im curious. What build do you run on your necro when doing fractals. Also was the necro a choice you guys made or you just werent fussed. If you guys did choose to take a necro, why? For blind and weakness?

Naah, I’m just sick with my exclusively-since-beta necro. /joke

1. They told me, that it goes easier with me than with a guardian. Joke or not, I don’t care.
2. We tested Underground Fractal with a HGH engie and a hybrid necro with Epidemic once. The effect was tremendous, things melt. Well/Axe#3 boonhate is also useful I guess.
3. My necro rotation of S/D bleed, weapon switch, BiP, Reaper’s Touch, DSin, DSout Axe#2 with a well or two has decent DPS that never stops… all from 500+ range. 500 is so safe that you will always DPS, you are invincible. Warrior’s may have higher DPS, but they die more often, there is no discussion, they just do die more often if they want to maintain the damage output.
4. Well of Power and Well of Darkness are amazing in Cliffside Fractal.
5. I use Spectral Walk to eliminate one orb from the equation in Swamp Fractal and to smash last set of seals in Cliffside.
6. Spectral Grasp lets us pull Chanters on the second seal in Cliffside one by one, without anyone dying (lvl 70+) as well as pull Kittens-Mittens in Uncategorized Fractal so that they don’t aggro the kiting guy.
7. Lich Form the Dredge boss <trololo>
8. Epidemic on the Legendary Grawl Shaman with 15 stacks of bleeding and some other conditions just after the shield phase kicks in.

The utility is there. At least it is for me. I could go on and on, but I don’t feel there’s a point.

What I want you to understand, that things like a well used Spectral Grasp will save you a lot of time (less killing at once, no wipes, no additional spawns). I didn’t play all professions, but I know that in high level fractals where utility actually means something – a necro is really really good.

leman.7682:

Do you realise how much utility wells can help in high level fractals?
Do you realise how grosely powerful an optimised hybrid-condi comp with epidemic necro is?

Trust me, I’m not tossing those things out of my hat.

Sometimes I wish a dev came with a spreadsheet showing possible DPS. Maybe then people would believe.

To close any argument before it may rise – IMPORTANT, please READ
A necro is a profession that is designed with numerous drawbacks. It is a profession with the least diversity when it comes to combat/skill systems (from blocks, mobility, etc. to combo capabilities). It is so BY DESIGN. It isn’t going to change.

What is the outcome of this situation? A necromancer needs a team that is well composed around him. It’s also is relatively inefficient to stack necromancers because they don’t have the mentioned utility variation that would allow them to create viable comps of stacked necros.

It is probably going to stay, so don’t expect to be ever able to play 4 necros as 4 warriors, that’s not the point.

What may happen, though, ArenaNet gives us real dungeons (not zerker-hp-sponge dungeon-set aka all original explorable dungeons) where you CANNOT just tear through the trash and melee boss without moving. Where things like conditions, epidemic, condition management and transfers, blinds, boonhate are not only viable, but necessary.

This is what necros need. Not cleave, no mobility, etc (although I would welcome them with true love). I just realised these things are not happening but better dungeons are.

spoj.9672:

Im curious. What build do you run on your necro when doing fractals. Also was the necro a choice you guys made or you just werent fussed. If you guys did choose to take a necro, why? For blind and weakness?

Naah, I’m just sick with my exclusively-since-beta necro. /joke

1. They told me, that it goes easier with me than with a guardian. Joke or not, I don’t care.
2. We tested Underground Fractal with a HGH engie and a hybrid necro with Epidemic once. The effect was tremendous, things melt. Well/Axe#3 boonhate is also useful I guess.
3. My necro rotation of S/D bleed, weapon switch, BiP, Reaper’s Touch, DSin, DSout Axe#2 with a well or two has decent DPS that never stops… all from 500+ range. 500 is so safe that you will always DPS, you are invincible. Warrior’s may have higher DPS, but they die more often, there is no discussion, they just do die more often if they want to maintain the damage output.
4. Well of Power and Well of Darkness are amazing in Cliffside Fractal.
5. I use Spectral Walk to eliminate one orb from the equation in Swamp Fractal and to smash last set of seals in Cliffside.
6. Spectral Grasp lets us pull Chanters on the second seal in Cliffside one by one, without anyone dying (lvl 70+) as well as pull Kittens-Mittens in Uncategorized Fractal so that they don’t aggro the kiting guy.
7. Lich Form the Dredge boss <trololo>
8. Epidemic on the Legendary Grawl Shaman with 15 stacks of bleeding and some other conditions just after the shield phase kicks in.

The utility is there. At least it is for me. I could go on and on, but I don’t feel there’s a point.

What I want you to understand, that things like a well used Spectral Grasp will save you a lot of time (less killing at once, no wipes, no additional spawns). I didn’t play all professions, but I know that in high level fractals where utility actually means something – a necro is really really good.

How come when i showcase all of what you said in a video Spoj doesn’t believe me, but when you say it he sort of… pauses ?

Everything you said i’ve been saying for months now… guess people got tired of hearing me yap all day.

PS: Hybrid is amazing isn’t it… never gets old to melt packs of mobs, and see more numbers on screen then you can count. Ahhh… necromancers

Well I always suspected the utility a necro has is better for fractals. Doesnt change that we are useless in other dungeons. When I use to take necro into fractals i did enjoy using WoP + WoD for cliffside. Never regarded spectral grasp as that good as guardians and mesmers can pull aswell. I also stopped taking necro because i could do more for standard pug groups and my group of friends as a guardian.

Also nemesis as much as I respect you as a player and a theorycrafter I know you dont speedrun or know much about how useful guardians and warriors are in those runs. I also know who SOLO are and if they are taking a necro for runs then thats something im interested in finding out more about. But it seems they are taking leman for his skill rather than his class.

Still in terms of regular dungeons, necros are in a pretty shoddy position.

spoj.9672:

Doesnt change that we are useless in other dungeons.

I wouldn’t go that far. I surely agree that the original dungeon design punishes some professions in comparison to others, because those dungeons are extremely one-sided.
Professions that fit this design are just better,

Other professions may still have their own niches like condi spreading for necros or unique party support (Spring, Spotter/Frost Spirit) for rangers, but those niches aren’t usually approached favourably.

My brain is shutting down already so I’ll just leave it here. I’ll try to think about all my dungeon experiences and write more about necros in dungeons. I just need to solobrainstorm and some rest.

spoj.9672:

Actually I could be wrong about this but DS hinted in a thread recently that they take 5 warriors into fractal 79 lol. They dont bother with guards anymore they just go for pure dps. But the guys in DS are insanely good.

If by DS you mean Dhuum Stucker guild they don’t even do fractals, let alone 79.

Whenever I swap our only guardian for necro (leman) the difference is like night and day. And it’s not in favour of guardian. Good players will succeed while bad ones have to use nannies (guardians) to compensate their less skillful gameplay. Only fractal where having a guardian is justified is Uncategorized but that fractal is, in conjuction with dredges one, the most silly design I have ever seen.

haviz.1340:

spoj.9672:

Actually I could be wrong about this but DS hinted in a thread recently that they take 5 warriors into fractal 79 lol. They dont bother with guards anymore they just go for pure dps. But the guys in DS are insanely good.

If by DS you mean Dhuum Stucker guild they don’t even do fractals, let alone 79.

Whenever I swap our only guardian for necro (leman) the difference is like night and day. And it’s not in favour of guardian. Good players will succeed while bad ones have to use nannies (guardians) to compensate their less skillful gameplay. Only fractal where having a guardian is justified is Uncategorized but that fractal is, in conjuction with dredges one, the most silly design I have ever seen.

My mistake. Although ive always found dps guard so much more useful due to the aoe pulls and reflects+aegis. I guess its not needed with skilled players but I just enjoy the extra safety you provide for teammates with a guardian. I can see myself going back to necro for fractals or using warrior or mesmer if I get a decent group to do fractals with on a regular basis.

spoj.9672:

My mistake. Although ive always found dps guard so much more useful due to the aoe pulls and reflects+aegis. I guess its not needed with skilled players but I just enjoy the extra safety you provide for teammates with a guardian. I can see myself going back to necro for fractals or using warrior or mesmer if I get a decent group to do fractals with on a regular basis.

Guardians currently bring way too much so it’s natural people want them. They also give you a safe net, but it doesn’t mean you need them. Doing grawl shaman lvl 79 with no guardian and in melee is definitely possible and doable.

leman.7682:

spoj.9672:

Doesnt change that we are useless in other dungeons.

I wouldn’t go that far. I surely agree that the original dungeon design punishes some professions in comparison to others, because those dungeons are extremely one-sided.
Professions that fit this design are just better,

Other professions may still have their own niches like condi spreading for necros or unique party support (Spring, Spotter/Frost Spirit) for rangers, but those niches aren’t usually approached favourably.

My brain is shutting down already so I’ll just leave it here. I’ll try to think about all my dungeon experiences and write more about necros in dungeons. I just need to solobrainstorm and some rest.

I’m actually pretty interested what you run in dungeon/fractal. Condition, power or hybrid. I’m by no mean any speed running player. But I’m noticing some phenomenon, that random PuG is getting better and better. I pugged coe twice recently and both group try to pull mobs. They are very random people, no one from same guild. In aetherblade dungeon, in each group I pugged, at least 3/5 try to ask other to pull also. And almost all 30+ fractal people try to pull also, especially dredge, ascalon.

And afaik, condition necro just doesn’t quite suit into that pull and nuke style because condition just doesn’t stack and spread fast enough.

Power as we know lacks cleave so we rely on wells to do that. But when 5s pass, and if things maybe vets survive, we are left with no cleave again.

These are all from my personally experience and why I feel necro doesn’t quite match the current meta playstyle. For boss fight, I’ll say we are in good place except no dodge. Condition is sustain and quite good damage compare to most build tbh. Power we don’t suffer from cleave so good too.

Hybrid, I personally just don’t like the sound of it no matter how it is. I didn’t try that. Is that the only way to go? Will it encounter the same problems?

Nemesis.8593:

Going into guardian as soon as i finish remaking some of my old videos.

Already made a very nice guardian tank build, well i think it’s nice… haven’t seen anyone use it… and i would know, because it has one key feature.
Either i’m really wrong… or… people don’t care about party tank-support, all they see is DPS DPS DPS.

Oh man i can’t wait to get some dungeons in which you absolutely can’t go without bunker or/and support…

You’re right… i haven’t played other classes much, i judge based on what i see… and what i see is in fractals mostly. I see useless mesmers… useless warriors… guardians with staff and shield that don’t put up a single wall, it’s a nightmare.
Not having anything against other classes… the necromancers i meat are horrible as well, every time i see a necromancer auto-attacking with staff in fractals i face palm.

It’s hard to get a field of things… i think i driven my guild insane with questions like “so how much DPS does your warrior do, what CD does your guardian have… how much does your elementalist heal ?”

All i see that 90% of the time i have a higher effectiveness then the people i am with…
This is not me bragging, just trying to make a point… if i am dead wrong about where the necromancer max potential is at compared to the other classes, it’s because of what i have observed.

Would be sad to find out other classes have more AoE sustained DPS then what i call a “forced conditionmancer”. Would be weird too… cause i never seen anyone ever doing more AoE damage then me when i play that spec. How i know ?… a few hundred fractals… maybe over thousand and a half.
Countless times i soloed a large group of mobs somewhere… and the rest of my team didn’t finish theirs by the time i finished mine.

1. Does it include mace/torch and staff?
2. No people are just stupid and think that speedrun videos are law.
3. MF and AR were good kittenslaps to full zerkers.

Andele.1306:

3. MF and AR were good kittenslaps to full zerkers.

My old guild had an easy time doing MF in zerkers. I did AR with a group of friends, much faster and easier with zerkers aswell. We did take 2 guardians for condi removal on final boss though. Stack and kill fast with chain condi cleanse and blocks to get the time gated achieve comfortably.

My smoothest AR pug was mostly zerkers. And I got all 3 achievement that run. The less time you need to kill golem, the less time to stay in lasers. And the 15mins can be achieved much easier with high dps.

I said it before, and I will say it again. Until there are fights that punish people for going zerker, fights that require debuffs to signficantly ease the encounter, and the bleed cap is resolved, Necro is always going to be the second class citizen in very high level dungeon play.

Anet has no desire to create dungeons that require a specific class to guarantee success, and as a result, the highest damage output class is always going to be wanted. You can argue survival and utility and everything else, but it is all meaningless when you know the encounter and mechanics well enough for those things to not matter.

If the bosses were harder, and the debuffs like weakness and chill had a much more dramatic impact on making the fight easier (like guardian heals and buffs and reflect skills), people would want a necro. A condition necro that is.

A power necro? No aoe might buffs, no AOE damage buffs, no direct damgae group synergy at all. No, I don’t think it will ever be a common upper tier dungeon class in the current state of the game.

The other 90% of dungeon runs, where 5-10 minutes extra is no big deal, they are fine in, assuming you aren’t bleed capped. But remember, everyone knows that necros are not going to speed things up, so are more likely to kick them to the curb.

Can we get past ‘CoF P1 is the ONLY PVE in this game’?!!

The ‘balance patch’ with extra life force gen, allowed us to use DS to suck up the attacks others could avoid due to having vigor.

Before that patch, our Signet of Undeath, was the best AoE res in the game. (Got nurfed)

Where before I’d get kicked from lots of pug groups for simple dungys like CoF1, but loved in more serous ones like Arah. We now have less of a role in PvE than ever.