Guild Wars 2

How a necro performs is very much tied in to player skill. On paper, the necro looks to be well underpowered. We could use a couple of minor buffs, but we have all of the tools we need at the strength they need to be at (save a couple skills like spectral armor and Signet of Spite). People just need to figure out how to use them, I.E., player skill.

If you are a necro and having issues surviving, it is very much a “L2P” issue. Either you aren’t utilizing the tools you have, or you got in over your head.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

How a necro performs is very much tied in to player skill. On paper, the necro looks to be well underpowered. We could use a couple of minor buffs, but we have all of the tools we need at the strength they need to be at (save a couple skills like spectral armor and Signet of Spite). People just need to figure out how to use them, I.E., player skill.

If you are a necro and having issues surviving, it is very much a “L2P” issue. Either you aren’t utilizing the tools you have, or you got in over your head.

OMG, not this again, please.
I’ve kittening said thousand times that I’m not here to get advices on how to play the Necro effective, neither I’ve said that I have issues to play my Necro. The Necro isn’t unplayable, nobody said that, it is just underpowered, that’s the point.

Do you all guys at least know what underpowered mean?

Our entire argument is that your perception that the class is underpowered is 100% related to the fact that necromancers have a much harsher learning curve, and one that many people have not scaled yet. If you are bad at a class, then you cannot reasonably expect to perform well at it, regardless of time spent. Other classes might be easier, or you might just understand their playstyle better, but if YOU are not as good with necros as YOU are with mesmers, guess what the common factor is?

Aka, the class is fine, its just difficult to learn. That isn’t underpowered, its just a learning curve.

Bhawb.7408:

Our entire argument is that your perception that the class is underpowered is 100% related to the fact that necromancers have a much harsher learning curve, and one that many people have not scaled yet. If you are bad at a class, then you cannot reasonably expect to perform well at it, regardless of time spent. Other classes might be easier, or you might just understand their playstyle better, but if YOU are not as good with necros as YOU are with mesmers, guess what the common factor is?

Aka, the class is fine, its just difficult to learn. That isn’t underpowered, its just a learning curve.

I’ve just said what made me think the class is underpowered and I’ve also provided a deeper analysis showing WHY the Necromancer is underpowered. What you guys are saying here is that the class isn’t underpowered because you are getting good results with. This means ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.
Learning curve is strictly related to the overall balance level. The Thief is an extremely easy to play profession because you can just press two buttons and your enemy is down and you have no need to time your dodges because Stealth cover your kitten Has the Thief no learning curve? Of course, but because it is overpowered, not because it is different. Because you don’t need to put efforts into the profession to get better, that’s the point.
In a well balanced game, an unskilled Thief should have a tough time with an unskilled Necro, same sitation should be at higher skill level but it absolutely doesn’t happen in this game, as you also pointed out.

I’d say that necros have average survivability. And given most likely skill loadout even terrible survivability.
My Conditionmancer loadout does not allow me many slots for escape skills, not that necro has em anyway. If I get caught i’m dead since I cant run away, and that is despite being able to take a beating before going down – it is just a matter of how long can I take that beating and how far away is help.
Necros cant run away, its a simple truth. With a more common skill loadout of skills that are needed to contribute and bring the hurt our mobility is utterly nonexistent.

Yesterday my group of 5 was running away from a zerg in WvW. When we detected the zerg it was basically “on the horizon”, we ran and they gave chase. A minute or so later I had three thieves doing Heartseeker on my kitten several warrior and rangers taking potshots while my group was nowhere in sight… And I had 10% movement increase from offhand dagger and 25% increase from Locust and I could still not get away.
What was in my group, 2 guardians, a warrior and a mesmer.
No matter that we got one of the best heals in the game, extended Stability in Plague and Lich and a kittenload more health as well, and even more health in DS… All that means jackkitten when you get Crippled, Chilled and hacked apart by high dmg dealing classes.

Hell, even when I was about to enter a Tower and what was to be about 20 steps for my character turned out to complete death. DS gone fast when hit by Cripple, Chill and knockbacks – into Plague and still Crippled and Chilled 40k+ health gone in a few seconds… 20 steps and 60k+ health and Stability was not enough to do it thanks to the amount of CC and sheer dmg that was thrown at me.
And this is due to many necessary skills for survivability is not readily available to necros… If we have them they are either Utility skills that we do not have the luxury to have on our loadout or they need to be traited for.

Necro may be able to survive as long and in as hostile an area as Guardian can … as I said in my earlier post I can do the same run with my Necro as I do with my Guardian, but for me it takes more effort, thought and management to do so.

This to me makes Guardian more ‘survivable’.

Off on a tangent for a second, levelling and learning to play a Necro gave me insights into the game and set up of characters, skills and traits that has helped me understand how to play my guardian better. I’d thoroughly recommend anyone to level and learn more than one character.

sorrow.2364:

Talentless.5708:

No offense, but you need to read better (I’ll leave it to you to find your own mistakes). Furthermore, you need to learn how to play the Necro if you dont think my responses make sense or work. They are proven every day

… by some random guys on a forum with no factual statements backing them up.

I like how you guys think that anyone who wants to highlight the class problems should l2p. Jump down from your “I’m better than you” throne and think about the game balancing, seeing the Necromancer among the other 7 professions and stop kittening about how you play the profession, how anyone else should play the profession and how to play effective like we don’t know.

This isn’t a thread started to discuss on how we should improve our skills, this is a thread about how Necromancer performs compared to other professions. If you want to say anyone how good you are at playing this game, go somewhere else.

I’m sorry, but I will continue to tell people who whine about the Necro as being underpowered to learn how to kittening play. I will not have scrubs who spend more time posting on the forums than learning their class continue efforts to convince Anet to buff something that needs no such buff. If you try to ruin the Necro by getting it buffed, you kitten well better expect push-back from people who dont want that to happen.

We may play the same class, but these forums show we are definitely not in the same class. Arguing that a Necro needs buffs other than a few bug fixes is absolutely absurd.

Talentless.5708:

sorrow.2364:

Talentless.5708:

No offense, but you need to read better (I’ll leave it to you to find your own mistakes). Furthermore, you need to learn how to play the Necro if you dont think my responses make sense or work. They are proven every day

… by some random guys on a forum with no factual statements backing them up.

I like how you guys think that anyone who wants to highlight the class problems should l2p. Jump down from your “I’m better than you” throne and think about the game balancing, seeing the Necromancer among the other 7 professions and stop kittening about how you play the profession, how anyone else should play the profession and how to play effective like we don’t know.

This isn’t a thread started to discuss on how we should improve our skills, this is a thread about how Necromancer performs compared to other professions. If you want to say anyone how good you are at playing this game, go somewhere else.

I’m sorry, but I will continue to tell people who whine about the Necro as being underpowered to learn how to kittening play. I will not have scrubs who spend more time posting on the forums than learning their class continue efforts to convince Anet to buff something that needs no such buff. If you try to ruin the Necro by getting it buffed, you kitten well better expect push-back from people who dont want that to happen.

We may play the same class, but these forums show we are definitely not in the same class. Arguing that a Necro needs buffs other than a few bug fixes is absolutely absurd.

There are some parts that don’t need touched, and some parts that do need fixed/buffed. (mainly lifetaps that need buffed.) and power and several traits that need fixed.

Deathshroud builds are fine.

Talentless.5708:

I’m sorry, but I will continue to tell people who whine about the Necro as being underpowered to learn how to kittening play. I will not have scrubs who spend more time posting on the forums than learning their class continue efforts to convince Anet to buff something that needs no such buff. If you try to ruin the Necro by getting it buffed, you kitten well better expect push-back from people who dont want that to happen.

We may play the same class, but these forums show we are definitely not in the same class. Arguing that a Necro needs buffs other than a few bug fixes is absolutely absurd.

You’re right. Necro needs no buffs.
It needs a rework.

My only other 80 at the moment is a guardian. I just got my necro to 23 last night. The guardian is my only 80 because I spend entirely too much time on that character. But as far as escape mechanics go the guards get the short end of that stick a well. If I’m fighting a losing battle on my guard then I’m kind of screwed. Sounds like much of the same for my necro in the future and I’m pretty ok with that :P

Mendax.9506:

Talentless.5708:

I’m sorry, but I will continue to tell people who whine about the Necro as being underpowered to learn how to kittening play. I will not have scrubs who spend more time posting on the forums than learning their class continue efforts to convince Anet to buff something that needs no such buff. If you try to ruin the Necro by getting it buffed, you kitten well better expect push-back from people who dont want that to happen.

We may play the same class, but these forums show we are definitely not in the same class. Arguing that a Necro needs buffs other than a few bug fixes is absolutely absurd.

You’re right. Necro needs no buffs.
It needs a rework.

le sigh…. some of the best guilds in this game use and rely on Necros to devastating effect whether in zerg or havoc (I solo on mine as well). I just dont understand the disconnect between in-game and in-forums.

There are numerous builds made public that give Necros in-forums all the tools they need to compete and thrive… yet the only response received is, I dont want to play that way, that is stupid, I need buffs. It is childish. Go play a thief if you only have the mental capacity to stealth and stab… it is boring… Necro has way more to offer.

Guardians got some pretty good escape mechanics… Teleport, some leaps… Wall of “in your face you is not getting through”… All works.

Talentless… I would recommend you really play other classes. Then you will see that necro is pretty underpowered or just not “built right”… By that I mean the trait lines are quite messy and require you to spend points in places that really gives no benefit to what you want to be better at just for one trait which will aid you.

I do pretty well with necro myself as a Conditionmancer, and Hybridmancer, and Terrormancer… Brings the pain in sPvP, PvE is no issue except dungeons with the kitten bleed cap, kinda mediocre tools for WvW though. Just that with the effort put into playing a necro well, I see that other classes can get an equal or better result with much less effort… And I think that that is not quite right.

Talentless.5708:

Mendax.9506:

Talentless.5708:

I’m sorry, but I will continue to tell people who whine about the Necro as being underpowered to learn how to kittening play. I will not have scrubs who spend more time posting on the forums than learning their class continue efforts to convince Anet to buff something that needs no such buff. If you try to ruin the Necro by getting it buffed, you kitten well better expect push-back from people who dont want that to happen.

We may play the same class, but these forums show we are definitely not in the same class. Arguing that a Necro needs buffs other than a few bug fixes is absolutely absurd.

You’re right. Necro needs no buffs.
It needs a rework.

le sigh…. some of the best guilds in this game use and rely on Necros to devastating effect whether in zerg or havoc (I solo on mine as well). I just dont understand the disconnect between in-game and in-forums.

There are numerous builds made public that give Necros in-forums all the tools they need to compete and thrive… yet the only response received is, I dont want to play that way, that is stupid, I need buffs. It is childish. Go play a thief if you only have the mental capacity to stealth and stab… it is boring… Necro has way more to offer.

Necro’s having a use does not mean they are balanced. Yes, there are some things that necro’s have that when used by a team can be great, however does that mean the class is okay? No. It’s like saying that mesmers are okay because of time warp and portals. It doesn’t mean their damage is balanced, trait lines are cohesive, or weapon skills work well together. If we are talking SPvP then balance issues are worse because we are balancing around holding/taking points. Then you’re trying to say that necromancers have to play a certain way to be good, that is the absolute telltale sign of a class not being well balanced. ALL builds/playstyles should be viable especially if it’s directly comparable to something another class can do.

I’ve played all the classes(7 80’s) and the 3 classes that need the most work are Necromancers, Rangers, and Engineers. Their traits are just so lackluster and some downright terrible, weapon skills don’t flow well, useless utilities, and often require so much extra work to just be decent. All the classes in this game still need a lot of balancing and those 3 classes are just the bottom tier at the moment. It doesn’t mean they don’t have uses or 1-2 decent specs, it just means that a good portion of the classes traits/skills aren’t useful or able to be used in a synergetic build.

TLDR: Just because a class has a decent build doesn’t mean all the other traits/skills don’t need balanced.

Talentless.5708:

le sigh…. some of the best guilds in this game use and rely on Necros to devastating effect whether in zerg or havoc (I solo on mine as well). I just dont understand the disconnect between in-game and in-forums.

There are numerous builds made public that give Necros in-forums all the tools they need to compete and thrive… yet the only response received is, I dont want to play that way, that is stupid, I need buffs. It is childish. Go play a thief if you only have the mental capacity to stealth and stab… it is boring… Necro has way more to offer.

I’ve got your point, but let me explain.
In my oppinion, it is possible to play a Necro and be successful at the same time.
The thing that bothers me is the design behind the class – it’s just filled with strange decisions.
Have a look at Death Magic traits – Reanimator and Protection of the Horde. These traits are not optional and they are useless for almost all non-minion builds. Why Eles for example don’t have Minor traits for Conjured Weapons? Why Thiefs have no Minor traits for Traps or Venoms? Because Minor traits should not depend on utility skills.
Let’s look at the Spite line (the one that is offensive and gives Power).
2 Minor traits there don’t even increase Necro’s damaging ability and the 3rd one gives 105 power and cond. dmg at the time you are almost dead.
I can talk about traits forever… Lack of interesting trait combinations like Guard, Ele or Ranger have, Maior traits are pretty random in every line… and so on. Feels like traits saw no attention since pre-alpha tests.
Look how many other strange ‘features’ do we have:
Many Spectral skills are removed when entering DS or using Lich/Plague. (Venoms are removed while in Stealth? Cantrips are set on cooldown when switching attunements?).
Minions are unsummoned when using Lich and Plague (just…why?).
You cannot be healed while in DS.
You can’t see your HP, boons/conditions, endurance, cooldowns while in DS.
You can’t interact with objects while in DS.
Add bugs here and you will get what I’m trying to say.
I don’t deny that someone can drive this broken car. But why can’t it be fixed so that everyone can use it?

sorrow.2364:

I’ve just said what made me think the class is underpowered and I’ve also provided a deeper analysis showing WHY the Necromancer is underpowered. What you guys are saying here is that the class isn’t underpowered because you are getting good results with. This means ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.
Learning curve is strictly related to the overall balance level. The Thief is an extremely easy to play profession because you can just press two buttons and your enemy is down and you have no need to time your dodges because Stealth cover your kitten Has the Thief no learning curve? Of course, but because it is overpowered, not because it is different. Because you don’t need to put efforts into the profession to get better, that’s the point.
In a well balanced game, an unskilled Thief should have a tough time with an unskilled Necro, same sitation should be at higher skill level but it absolutely doesn’t happen in this game, as you also pointed out.

I have 4 80’s and have spent well over 200 plus tournament and hot join games on a few of my 6 characters. I have spent countless hours attempting to play the Warrior and Thief on tournaments and wvwvw and I can’t play them effectively. I die too often, can’t kill many of the classes, and routinely find myself losing battles I can win on my ele, ranger, and necro. Does this mean they are underpowered and bad? In fact, I have more hours spent on my warrior and ele than I do on any other class by far, and yet I can do more in one tournament or wvwvw match with my necro than with either of those classes. My Paid tourney team even requests that I bring the necro every time.

I play a minionmaster which has been called the weakest of all builds, and absolutely wreck guardians, ele’s, thieves, and anything that isn’t an engineer or ranger with massive aoe. I have gotten countless requests in game to share my build and what I used to kill people off. My tournament teammates have asked me to show them how to do it since thy had the same experience as you did with the necro.

I am an awful mesmer and thief player, I am brutally inefficient with my warrior, I can’t seem to handle the delicate balance in pvp or wvwvw with the ele, but I am really strong with the ranger, guardian, and Necro. Does this mean that all those classes are horribly underpowered while the Necro is great?

Just because you spend hours playing a class that you are not really strong in does not have any bearing on the class. You have been given countless tips and strategy from bhawb and talentless. They have tried to show you how they make it work, but you only see your inability to play it well as a sign the class is bad and not yoru playstyle.

I don’t run around the theif boards claiming they suck because I can’t play it as well. I don’t complain about condition Necro builds even though I feel they are the worst of all condition builds out there. I simply came to the acknowledgement that just because I can’t do something well doesn’t mean I am not good at something else.

I am a very successful Minionmaster. If you want I can give you references who will tell you that. I will face you in a match sometime and prove it to you if you wish. The class needs some minor tweeks, not a rework. Talentless is right, we have more built in survival and ways to live than any other class in the game. We are an attrition class, which is perfect for my playstyle.

Bas.7406:

I have 4 80’s and have spent well over 200 plus tournament and hot join games on a few of my 6 characters. I have spent countless hours attempting to play the Warrior and Thief on tournaments and wvwvw and I can’t play them effectively. I die too often, can’t kill many of the classes, and routinely find myself losing battles I can win on my ele, ranger, and necro. Does this mean they are underpowered and bad? In fact, I have more hours spent on my warrior and ele than I do on any other class by far, and yet I can do more in one tournament or wvwvw match with my necro than with either of those classes. My Paid tourney team even requests that I bring the necro every time.

I play a minionmaster which has been called the weakest of all builds, and absolutely wreck guardians, ele’s, thieves, and anything that isn’t an engineer or ranger with massive aoe. I have gotten countless requests in game to share my build and what I used to kill people off. My tournament teammates have asked me to show them how to do it since thy had the same experience as you did with the necro.

I am an awful mesmer and thief player, I am brutally inefficient with my warrior, I can’t seem to handle the delicate balance in pvp or wvwvw with the ele, but I am really strong with the ranger, guardian, and Necro. Does this mean that all those classes are horribly underpowered while the Necro is great?

Just because you spend hours playing a class that you are not really strong in does not have any bearing on the class. You have been given countless tips and strategy from bhawb and talentless. They have tried to show you how they make it work, but you only see your inability to play it well as a sign the class is bad and not yoru playstyle.

I don’t run around the theif boards claiming they suck because I can’t play it as well. I don’t complain about condition Necro builds even though I feel they are the worst of all condition builds out there. I simply came to the acknowledgement that just because I can’t do something well doesn’t mean I am not good at something else.

I am a very successful Minionmaster. If you want I can give you references who will tell you that. I will face you in a match sometime and prove it to you if you wish. The class needs some minor tweeks, not a rework. Talentless is right, we have more built in survival and ways to live than any other class in the game. We are an attrition class, which is perfect for my playstyle.

Further emphasis to the point that Necro is not a one-hit wonder. I have never even tried running a minion build, yet here is someone having reported great success with it. I too did not prefer a condimancer build, because it didnt suit my playstyle. Sometimes I feel people have the thought that their class is supposed to do one thing and when they cant do that one thing, they cry foul. Time is better spent seeking advice and opinion than buffs.

Talentless.5708:

Further emphasis to the point that Necro is not a one-hit wonder. I have never even tried running a minion build, yet here is someone having reported great success with it. I too did not prefer a condimancer build, because it didnt suit my playstyle. Sometimes I feel people have the thought that their class is supposed to do one thing and when they cant do that one thing, they cry foul. Time is better spent seeking advice and opinion than buffs.

I enjoy the fact that’s it’s not a one-hit wonder. I don’t like to get wrecked if i make a mistake, and so playing thief, warrior, ele, and mesmer are brutal for me in sPvP and tPvP.

After playing a Warrior, Thief, Elementalist Engineer and Necromancer, I would say that after my Engineer (Who’s has a support type build – Elixir Gun) The Necro is the most fun class I have played.
I don’t know why people say Necros have horrible mobility, it’s a fallacy, just use Signet of the Locust for a permanent boost to your speed of +25% and move a lot during fights.
I use Axe + focus and alternate to dagger x2 when I want to go down and dirty and I have never had problems surviving fights other classes (for lack of range) have to fight them from laying on their backs “throwing rocks”.

My build uses 3 pets and I am focused on power gear, precision for good measure and vitality just for sh**s and giggles.

The thing with Necro is that it requires a lot of skill and adaptability, if you’re not up to switching weapon sets and going back and forth from Death Shroud constantly then you’ll find the class tedious as hell, but if you adapt to that play style, it’s a hell of a ride

Enjoy your Necro any way you want, it’s an extremely versatile class.b

I think the necro is more or less built on the premise of “you don’t have to do things well, you just have to do them better than your opponent.”

We lack mobility (well, we really don’t, ours is just more complex than “I go there”), but if your enemy is crippled, chilled, and/or immobilized and thus can’t catch you/escape you anyway, who cares?

We lack burst, but if your enemy can’t burst you (blinds, death shroud), who cares?

We lack vigor and dodges, but if your enemy can’t dodge (weakness, immobilize), who cares?

I’m not saying these are great premises to build upon (or well implemented), but it seems that’s how the class was designed. Some things have to be changed on other classes (like Shadow Stepping ignoring Immobilize) to make this philosophy actually work.

Bhawb.7408:

Our entire argument is that your perception that the class is underpowered is 100% related to the fact that necromancers have a much harsher learning curve, and one that many people have not scaled yet. If you are bad at a class, then you cannot reasonably expect to perform well at it, regardless of time spent. Other classes might be easier, or you might just understand their playstyle better, but if YOU are not as good with necros as YOU are with mesmers, guess what the common factor is?

Aka, the class is fine, its just difficult to learn. That isn’t underpowered, its just a learning curve.

For survivability, I disagree with the learning curve argument. Once again it goes back to the fact that you cannot “learn” to use your health “better”.

You can learn to stealth better on a thief. You can learn to clone better on a mesmer. You can learn to Ride the Lightning better on an elementalist.

You cannot use your health better on a necromancer, which is all it got. When there is nothing to learn, there is no learning curve. A necro just have to try to kill the enemy before the necro’s large hp pool + DS runs out. This is no easy task when combined with necro’s mostly underwhelming damage. If a necro fails he dies. If the necro wins the enemy runs away and survives.

CHIPS.6018:

For survivability, I disagree with the learning curve argument. Once again it goes back to the fact that you cannot “learn” to use your health “better”.

You can learn to stealth better on a thief. You can learn to clone better on a mesmer. You can learn to Ride the Lightning better on an elementalist.

You cannot use your health better on a necromancer, which is all it got. When there is nothing to learn, there is no learning curve. A necro just have to try to kill the enemy before the necro’s large hp pool + DS runs out. This is no easy task when combined with necro’s mostly underwhelming damage.

Actually you can learn to use your health better. DS , fear, chill, siphon health, regeneration, 2 dodges. The same way a good Mesmer, Thief, and Ranger have to master dodges, and ele’s have to improve on swapping and knockdowns, we have to learn to maximize our available health and return on it. You can use DS offensively and Defensively which is way better than warriors, mesmers, rangers, and engineers class specific traits.

On a side note. Life transfusion will heal you if you pop it just as DS is wearing off. If you aren’t in DS than it heals you. I save it right until the end if I am low on health and pop it right before I go out. 2k heals thank you!!

CHIPS.6018:

Bhawb.7408:

Our entire argument is that your perception that the class is underpowered is 100% related to the fact that necromancers have a much harsher learning curve, and one that many people have not scaled yet. If you are bad at a class, then you cannot reasonably expect to perform well at it, regardless of time spent. Other classes might be easier, or you might just understand their playstyle better, but if YOU are not as good with necros as YOU are with mesmers, guess what the common factor is?

Aka, the class is fine, its just difficult to learn. That isn’t underpowered, its just a learning curve.

For survivability, I disagree with the learning curve argument. Once again it goes back to the fact that you cannot “learn” to use your health “better”.

You can learn to stealth better on a thief. You can learn to clone better on a mesmer. You can learn to Ride the Lightning better on an elementalist.

You cannot use your health better on a necromancer, which is all it got. When there is nothing to learn, there is no learning curve. A necro just have to try to kill the enemy before the necro’s large hp pool + DS runs out. This is no easy task when combined with necro’s mostly underwhelming damage.

You can certainly learn to use DS better. The more I play, the more I learn when to absorb damage with DS, when to use it for long periods of time to spam Life Blast, when to just dip into it for buffs, and when to leave it alone. I’m learning the optimal times to use Spectral skills to regenerate life force so I can have 2 or 3 full bars of it per fight. If you just view DS as extra health that runs out and that’s it, well, you’re gonna have a rough time * insert South Park picture here *

Talentless.5708:

sorrow.2364:

Talentless.5708:

No offense, but you need to read better (I’ll leave it to you to find your own mistakes). Furthermore, you need to learn how to play the Necro if you dont think my responses make sense or work. They are proven every day

… by some random guys on a forum with no factual statements backing them up.

I like how you guys think that anyone who wants to highlight the class problems should l2p. Jump down from your “I’m better than you” throne and think about the game balancing, seeing the Necromancer among the other 7 professions and stop kittening about how you play the profession, how anyone else should play the profession and how to play effective like we don’t know.

This isn’t a thread started to discuss on how we should improve our skills, this is a thread about how Necromancer performs compared to other professions. If you want to say anyone how good you are at playing this game, go somewhere else.

I’m sorry, but I will continue to tell people who whine about the Necro as being underpowered to learn how to kittening play. I will not have scrubs who spend more time posting on the forums than learning their class continue efforts to convince Anet to buff something that needs no such buff. If you try to ruin the Necro by getting it buffed, you kitten well better expect push-back from people who dont want that to happen.

We may play the same class, but these forums show we are definitely not in the same class. Arguing that a Necro needs buffs other than a few bug fixes is absolutely absurd.

Dude you are from JQ, the top server of T1. You got to admit that there is a chance that your wvw experience and opinion might be biased and skewed because of that. When you wvw you are either playing with the best people or running with a huge zerg. Even when you solo there are probably enough friendly roamers around to help you out. All these factors might make those class imbalances not as obvious to you.

Talentless.5708:

I’m sorry, but I will continue to tell people who whine about the Necro as being underpowered to learn how to kittening play. I will not have scrubs who spend more time posting on the forums than learning their class continue efforts to convince Anet to buff something that needs no such buff. If you try to ruin the Necro by getting it buffed, you kitten well better expect push-back from people who dont want that to happen.

We may play the same class, but these forums show we are definitely not in the same class. Arguing that a Necro needs buffs other than a few bug fixes is absolutely absurd.

I’ve never said in any of my posts that Necro need buffs. What I’ve said is that Necro, right now and in the position it is, is not balanced.
It probably need a rework, probably need other classes to be balanced or the Necro to be buffed, I don’t care. The only thing I want to point out is that the Necro does not fit its design philosophy and it isn’t balanced as it is now.

Bas.7406:

cut

You lost your credibility when you said you are successful at playing minion master and probably you won’t get it back until you post a video of you being successful as minion master.

Necros have 1 immob on dagger… thats it… maybe some pets do as well dont know. I ran pets for a time, found that they stood still and got killed by everything without doing any good and never looked back.
We dont have alot of blinds… Dagger 4 and Well of Darkness, Plague… Blind disappears after 1 attack… When someone is hitting you 3 times a second or so neither will help much.

What I see most on forums are people on one side pointing out flaws and sometimes glaring holes in the mechanics of a class… The other side that say everything is perfect who also say that noone but them apparently know how to play the class.
The latter often being elitist jerks with no idea about anything, either that or they play thieves and just want to mess with the rest of us:P

The fact is, necro trait lines need to be looked over. For example Death Magic forcing minion related traits on you even though you have to specc it to get a usable staff…
DS UI sucks balls… plain and simple, no condition or boon tracking. Big skill bar in the middle of the screen.
Plague and Lich removing oh so many things they should not touch…
Axe being so lackluster in dmg(wouldnt even mind a shorter range(melee) if it only cleaved and did a decent amount more dmg)… and hitting only one target for that tiny amount of dmg. Gotta like the 3 skill though, it rocks.

sorrow.2364:

You lost your credibility when you said you are successful at playing minion master and probably you won’t get it back until you post a video of you being successful as minion master.

You lost all credibility when you said Necro’s can’t survive well. Any semi decent Necro player that has a video (nemisis) is proof that you are not just wrong, but far off base. Your inability to think of anythign you have not come up with yourself is the issue here. Dimissing other opinions because of you lack of skill only makes you seem trivial, childish, and petulant.

I can give you references, and the day you step into a tournament (probably your first time) it will be proven to you time and time again by players who take the time to learn a class and think comments through before posting. There is a reason the necro sees the least amount of changes, because any changes made could swing the necro to overpowered quickly.

My lack of a desire to take the time to video my accomplishments in life are an odd thing to you. Because if a man don’t post on you tube he must be a liar? So everything you see on the internet is true!!!!? I always knew that the best players were on youtube..doh!

You have been countless alternatives to your play style, and your constant reply is always the same….“I am a great player, necro is broken. You are all liars and jerks who think you are better than me, but this class is broken because I can’t play it well.” If you can’t listen to others who have constructive criticism than you should roll a different class.

None of us are saying the Necro is perfect. We are saying you are playing it by focusing on it’s limitations instead of it’s strengths. We all agree that the Necro needs a few bug fixes and tweaks, but the Ranger is in massive need of an overhaul not us.

One final thing, learn to do the math before saying minions are bad. CD to up time to damage dealt, Minions are the single best damage utility we have not named Blood Is Power.

Although I would love a thread where all good builds are posted without useless comments spamming it… Cause right now, finding those supposedly awesome builds with tips and tricks is hard… Saerch function usually giving a bunch results that dont help.

As a note to all of those who commented on Axe #2 granting 4% life force: The wiki was wrong. I just corrected it to match the in-game tooltip and the actual life force gain (8%).

If you think I’m wrong, I suggest equipping an axe to your necro and reading what it says.

CHIPS.6018:

Talentless.5708:

sorrow.2364:

Talentless.5708:

No offense, but you need to read better (I’ll leave it to you to find your own mistakes). Furthermore, you need to learn how to play the Necro if you dont think my responses make sense or work. They are proven every day

… by some random guys on a forum with no factual statements backing them up.

I like how you guys think that anyone who wants to highlight the class problems should l2p. Jump down from your “I’m better than you” throne and think about the game balancing, seeing the Necromancer among the other 7 professions and stop kittening about how you play the profession, how anyone else should play the profession and how to play effective like we don’t know.

This isn’t a thread started to discuss on how we should improve our skills, this is a thread about how Necromancer performs compared to other professions. If you want to say anyone how good you are at playing this game, go somewhere else.

I’m sorry, but I will continue to tell people who whine about the Necro as being underpowered to learn how to kittening play. I will not have scrubs who spend more time posting on the forums than learning their class continue efforts to convince Anet to buff something that needs no such buff. If you try to ruin the Necro by getting it buffed, you kitten well better expect push-back from people who dont want that to happen.

We may play the same class, but these forums show we are definitely not in the same class. Arguing that a Necro needs buffs other than a few bug fixes is absolutely absurd.

Dude you are from JQ, the top server of T1. You got to admit that there is a chance that your wvw experience and opinion might be biased and skewed because of that. When you wvw you are either playing with the best people or running with a huge zerg. Even when you solo there are probably enough friendly roamers around to help you out. All these factors might make those class imbalances not as obvious to you.

Your signature says “formerly of SBI”. I guess you forgot SF carried SBI for months before moving to JQ. I am in a very skillful guild. There are players who are better than me in my guild. Part of me thinks I need to share some Necro videos to emphasize how good Necros are… but the other part knows that plenty of those same videos and builds have been shared with no effect. It’s almost pointless to post in here… I question why I bother.

Bas.7406:

You lost all credibility when you said Necro’s can’t survive well. Any semi decent Necro player that has a video (nemisis) is proof that you are not just wrong, but far off base. Your inability to think of anythign you have not come up with yourself is the issue here. Dimissing other opinions because of you lack of skill only makes you seem trivial, childish, and petulant.

I can give you references, and the day you step into a tournament (probably your first time) it will be proven to you time and time again by players who take the time to learn a class and think comments through before posting. There is a reason the necro sees the least amount of changes, because any changes made could swing the necro to overpowered quickly.

My lack of a desire to take the time to video my accomplishments in life are an odd thing to you. Because if a man don’t post on you tube he must be a liar? So everything you see on the internet is true!!!!? I always knew that the best players were on youtube..doh!

You have been countless alternatives to your play style, and your constant reply is always the same….“I am a great player, necro is broken. You are all liars and jerks who think you are better than me, but this class is broken because I can’t play it well.” If you can’t listen to others who have constructive criticism than you should roll a different class.

None of us are saying the Necro is perfect. We are saying you are playing it by focusing on it’s limitations instead of it’s strengths. We all agree that the Necro needs a few bug fixes and tweaks, but the Ranger is in massive need of an overhaul not us.

One final thing, learn to do the math before saying minions are bad. CD to up time to damage dealt, Minions are the single best damage utility we have not named Blood Is Power.

*THIS IS A kittenING BALANCE THREAD NOT A “IMPROVE YOUR SKILL” THREAD.

BALANCE: How Necro performs compared to other professions related to the effort you put into playing.

How many times do I have to say that? I never said here, neither on any part of all my posts that I don’t feel effective on my Necro. Those are only assumption made from you and any other l2p guys here.

This doesn’t mean by any form that Necros are well balanced and that the efforts I put in my playing are the same I put in any other profession to obtain the same results. You get the point or am I going to get another stupid l2p post?

All I see here is me trying to point out and get some sense on what Necro lacks and what should be improved and you and Talentless keep kittening about “l2p”, “Necros are fine”, “go play turneys”, “Minions are fine” and another bunch of bullkitten.

What I want to hear in this topic is WHY you think that HP and Death Shroud are valid alternatives to mobility, evades, invulnerability, boons, visual confusion and extra heals, not keep earing the same thing over and over on how I must be a bad player, how you guys are good at playing Necro and minion masters, how random guy none know is good at Necro and blah blah blah.

Drachshyish.2319:

Necros have 1 immob on dagger… thats it… maybe some pets do as well dont know. I ran pets for a time, found that they stood still and got killed by everything without doing any good and never looked back.
We dont have alot of blinds… Dagger 4 and Well of Darkness, Plague… Blind disappears after 1 attack… When someone is hitting you 3 times a second or so neither will help much.

What I see most on forums are people on one side pointing out flaws and sometimes glaring holes in the mechanics of a class… The other side that say everything is perfect who also say that noone but them apparently know how to play the class.
The latter often being elitist jerks with no idea about anything, either that or they play thieves and just want to mess with the rest of us:P

The fact is, necro trait lines need to be looked over. For example Death Magic forcing minion related traits on you even though you have to specc it to get a usable staff…
DS UI sucks balls… plain and simple, no condition or boon tracking. Big skill bar in the middle of the screen.
Plague and Lich removing oh so many things they should not touch…
Axe being so lackluster in dmg(wouldnt even mind a shorter range(melee) if it only cleaved and did a decent amount more dmg)… and hitting only one target for that tiny amount of dmg. Gotta like the 3 skill though, it rocks.

Not one person has ever said the Necro is perfect. We are saying it’s not broken, and that massive overhauls being requested are ridiculously shortsighted. I will ignore your comment about minions because we have attempted to show you that minions are valid not perfect but as valid as every single other utility we currently have.

It is an impossibility to be an elitist jerk and have no idea. The whole concept of an elitist jerk is that they know more than you and like to be a jerk about it. You can’t be an elitist and be stupid it doesn’t work that way. Plus not one of us is being elitist we are attempting to show you and get you to understand. Elitist would be saying shut up go away and blocking you.

DS UI is a fix that everyone wants. I hate the new change where being knocked down or stunned takes you out of DS immediately. The trait lines aren’t horrendous and the Death Magic tree is pretty strong, but you are correct it’s impossible to get a good staff build without picking up a few useless traits. However it’s also impossible to get a great crit happy power DS build without picking up crap in the Curses tree you don’t want. here is the kicker though this is true with every single class in the game. Some have it slightly better. Our bunker builds are synergized really well.

Plague and Lich removing is never going to change unless you want to lose the stat boost you get when you go in to it. Trust me losing the health and toughness boost in Lich form to be able to keep your utilities would cause a crying fest this world has never seen. I would hate to be crushed in 2.5 seconds in that ungainly giant.

Axe is not that bad. Auto attack is crap, but it’s perfect for Minion builds because you can get to 25 stacks and then flip to DS and life blast for major damage while your minions wreck someone. Would I like a cleave? Yes! Will it happen? No, because Anet is instead intent on having more single target focus. Axe 2 plus 25 stacks of vuln = 8k damage in top end pve gear, and 3-4k damage in full power build gear. If the damage was increased, guardians would weep and cry upon seeing us approaching. Axe is good for what it is. We are not gettng a burst weapon.

Drachshyish.2319:

Guardians got some pretty good escape mechanics… Teleport, some leaps… Wall of “in your face you is not getting through”… All works.

The teleport skills require you to have a target. Usually you’ve exhausted them and they’re on cooldown if you’re already running away. The wall of “in your face you is not getting through” is kind of a joke. It doesn’t last very long at all and it can’t be cast on the move. Most people just walk around it or go through it anyways. :\

All I’m saying is that Guardians and Necromancers are very alike in the escape mechanism department.

sorrow.2364:

*THIS IS A kittenING BALANCE THREAD NOT A “IMPROVE YOUR SKILL” THREAD.

BALANCE: How Necro performs compared to other professions related to the effort you put into playing.

How many times do I have to say that? I never said here, neither on any part of all my posts that I don’t feel effective on my Necro. Those are only assumption made from you and any other l2p guys here.

This doesn’t mean by any form that Necros are well balanced and that the efforts I put in my playing are the same I put in any other profession to obtain the same results. You get the point or am I going to get another stupid l2p post?

All I see here is me trying to point out and get some sense on what Necro lacks and what should be improved and you and Talentless keep kittening about “l2p”, “Necros are fine”, “go play turneys”, “Minions are fine” and another bunch of bullkitten.

What I want to hear in this topic is WHY you think that HP and Death Shroud are valid alternatives to mobility, evades, invulnerability, boons, visual confusion and extra heals, not keep earing the same thing over and over on how I must be a bad player, how you guys are good at playing Necro and minion masters, how random guy none know is good at Necro and blah blah blah.

I got distracted by all your kittens. What are you trying to say again? You can’t balance something that is balanced. We are in the middle of the road with everything. Isn’t that what balance is? What are you confusing balance with I want the best of everything?

We don’t get smashed and we don’t smash people. We are balanced. Just because a thief, warrior, or mesmer can wtf pwn someone in 2.5 seconds doesn’t mean everyone should be able to do that. That’s not balance, that’s imbalance.

Anet never promised balance. In fact, they have said numerous times they like having niche roles. Our niche role is simple, in a battle of attrition we will win. Our goal is to extend a fight, not avoid it, run from it, or blow through it. We extend fights, that’s why we have cripples, chills, fears, and multiple small healing returns because we are an attrition class.

The sooner you realize that it’s not the class that’s broken it’s your vision of the class that’s broken. Again doing everything the best is not balance, doing everything well is balance. We do everything well. I would say there are only two balanced classes engineers and necros and guess what they are the least played.

You don’t want balance you want niche. You want to be able to burst or be able to tank or be really mobile, but that’s not what we do. We outlast, we wittle you down in a million different ways. We take one target and make their life miserable.

It’s not the class, it’s your concept that’s broken. Besides everyone hates kittens, get a dog.

Zuer.2814:

Drachshyish.2319:

Guardians got some pretty good escape mechanics… Teleport, some leaps… Wall of “in your face you is not getting through”… All works.

The teleport skills require you to have a target. Usually you’ve exhausted them and they’re on cooldown if you’re already running away. The wall of “in your face you is not getting through” is kind of a joke. It doesn’t last very long at all and it can’t be cast on the move. Most people just walk around it or go through it anyways. :\

All I’m saying is that Guardians and Necromancers are very alike in the escape mechanism department.

What another player with common sense? Shhhh, dont’ tell him other classes have the same issues. He says the necro is the only bad one because he can’t play it well!!! Common sense is not aloud!

Sarcasm aside, you are correct guardians and necro’s are the same things from two different viewpoints. Neither have great avoidance they both fight to outlast the other class. But a good Necro will always beat a good Guardian. They aren’t built to beat us we are the kings of fights that never end.

Bas.7406:

Zuer.2814:

Drachshyish.2319:

Guardians got some pretty good escape mechanics… Teleport, some leaps… Wall of “in your face you is not getting through”… All works.

The teleport skills require you to have a target. Usually you’ve exhausted them and they’re on cooldown if you’re already running away. The wall of “in your face you is not getting through” is kind of a joke. It doesn’t last very long at all and it can’t be cast on the move. Most people just walk around it or go through it anyways. :\

All I’m saying is that Guardians and Necromancers are very alike in the escape mechanism department.

What another player with common sense? Shhhh, dont’ tell him other classes have the same issues. He says the necro is the only bad one because he can’t play it well!!! Common sense is not aloud!

Sarcasm aside, you are correct guardians and necro’s are the same things from two different viewpoints. Neither have great avoidance they both fight to outlast the other class. But a good Necro will always beat a good Guardian. They aren’t built to beat us we are the kings of fights that never end.

Actually, a guardian can get infinite vigor with 5 trait points. (tons of avoidance.) and also has access to moves that offer invulnerability, and the ability to clear 3 conditions every 10 seconds, or 2 conditions with 10 points.

Daecollo.9578:

Actually, a guardian can get infinite vigor with 5 trait points. (tons of avoidance.) and also has access to moves that offer invulnerability, and the ability to clear 3 conditions every 10 seconds, or 2 conditions with 10 points.

Try 2 conditions every 10 seconds if they never use their heal and have traited for it. Guardians never get the ability to do a passive 3rd condition cleanse.

But, Guardians also rely heavily on boons. Guess which class is best for removing those boons and countering the heavy armor+ healing?

Bas.7406:

I got distracted by all your kittens. What are you trying to say again? You can’t balance something that is balanced. We are in the middle of the road with everything. Isn’t that what balance is? What are you confusing balance with I want the best of everything?

We don’t get smashed and we don’t smash people. We are balanced. Just because a thief, warrior, or mesmer can wtf pwn someone in 2.5 seconds doesn’t mean everyone should be able to do that. That’s not balance, that’s imbalance.

Anet never promised balance. In fact, they have said numerous times they like having niche roles. Our niche role is simple, in a battle of attrition we will win. Our goal is to extend a fight, not avoid it, run from it, or blow through it. We extend fights, that’s why we have cripples, chills, fears, and multiple small healing returns because we are an attrition class.

The sooner you realize that it’s not the class that’s broken it’s your vision of the class that’s broken. Again doing everything the best is not balance, doing everything well is balance. We do everything well. I would say there are only two balanced classes engineers and necros and guess what they are the least played.

You don’t want balance you want niche. You want to be able to burst or be able to tank or be really mobile, but that’s not what we do. We outlast, we wittle you down in a million different ways. We take one target and make their life miserable.

It’s not the class, it’s your concept that’s broken. Besides everyone hates kittens, get a dog.

You still did not addressed what I want to address.
Is having an huge HP pool enough to make a Necro an attrition class to survive long enough the fights? Has the Necro good amount of tools to avoid enemy to escape?
The answer is NO.
Despite what you want to say, having an huge HP pool doesn’t help to live enough to make the fight long as they should to unleash what the Necro potential should be. Why? Because we lack of any other defensive mechanism.

We are supposed to have viable constant heals thanks to blood magic, but would you define Blood Magic traitline as viable? No.

We are supposed to have access to a good amount of reliable boons, but do we get enough? No.

We are supposed to be a profession which is hard to run away from, but do you think that the tools we have are enough? Do we feel that a Thief or an Elementalist has an hard time running away from you? No, just Shadow Refuge or RtL and they are miles away.

Of course we aren’t a profession which is supposed to be slippery as a Thief is, but we aren’t the profession the developers said we are meant to be, BY FAR.

We should be able to win attrition fight and impede enemy’s escapes as easy as a Thief burst down a single target and runs away, a Mesmer confused the emeny spamming clones or a Warrior deals massive damage in close range. This doesn’t happen in this game, unless we have played completely different games.

And this is the point I want to make, now you can make another l2p post.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Daecollo.9578:

Actually, a guardian can get infinite vigor with 5 trait points. (tons of avoidance.) and also has access to moves that offer invulnerability, and the ability to clear 3 conditions every 10 seconds, or 2 conditions with 10 points.

Try 2 conditions every 10 seconds if they never use their heal and have traited for it. Guardians never get the ability to do a passive 3rd condition cleanse.

But, Guardians also rely heavily on boons. Guess which class is best for removing those boons and countering the heavy armor+ healing?

Was just going to point that out. Infinite vigor is traited and they lose out plus vigor is a boon, while DS is not. I can remove a boon, you can’t remove my DS. Every point that he made is a specific build that a guardian has to take and weapons he has to use for those points.

If a guardian builds to remove conditions (ridiculous since they can just whirl finish and use symbols), than they lose out on damage traits. Guess what class can do damage while still keeping their big burst reduction? Guess which class can drop so many conditions (not just bleeds) so fast on a short CD that the guardian would have to spend the whole fight cleansing conditions? You guessed right.

They call me the bunker killer for a reason :P.

sorrow.2364:

You still did not addressed what I want to address.
Is having an huge HP pool enough to make a Necro an attrition class to survive long enough the fights? Has the Necro good amount of tools to avoid enemy to escape?
The answer is NO.
Despite what you want to say, having an huge HP pool doesn’t help to live enough to make the fight long as they should to unleash what the Necro potential should be. Why? Because we lack of any other defensive mechanism.

Yes and no. No because we are very vulnerable to stunlocking and thus dying because we really can’t do anything about it. All classes are susceptible to this, but some have better stability access than others (Guardians have at least 3 forms of AoE stability, though one requires traiting to achieve)

Yes, though, because both of those massive health pools (yes, I did say we have two) can recharge rather quickly. Anything that gives life force is effectively a heal that is % of your max health. Naturally, this will be a very significant amount as your max health is very large by default. Now consider how quickly you can build life force. Just by swapping to the easily replenishable health bar to absorb big hits, you can easily force an opponent to go through the equivalent of your normal health bar several times in a fight. Factor in the several sources of Regen, siphons, and other bits of healing we get (remember: we have the two best healing skills in the game, one in quality, the other in quantity healed) and we can stretch a fight our far longer than opponents are comfortable with. We may not go through their health bar quite as fast as some other classes, but it still depletes before ours does.

Let’s break it down for you slowly so you can pick it up, because apparently me answering your questions in a well worded essay was too complex.

sorrow.2364:

You still did not addressed what I want to address.
Is having an huge HP pool enough to make a Necro an attrition class to survive long enough the fights? Has the Necro good amount of tools to avoid enemy to escape?
The answer is NO.

Yes, your concept of what attrition is is broken. A large HP pool is exactly how attrition battles are won. Avoiding and escaping are not attrition, so if we are an attrition class why would we have escape tools. Thieves, ele’s, and mesmers are escape classes so mobility is needed they are hit n’run. Guardian and Necros are attrition classes stop comparing us to a class that is not in the same league as us.

We don’t escape our goal is to stay in and fight. That’s the definition of attrition. Stop confusing the class.

sorrow.2364:

Despite what you want to say, having an huge HP pool doesn’t help to live enough to make the fight long as they should to unleash what the Necro potential should be. Why? Because we lack of any other defensive mechanism.

Defense and escape tools are not the same please learn the difference. We have blindness, chill, retaliation, cripple, and immobilize as well as protection and siphon heals these are all attrition and defensive tools. We have access to more than any other class in the game. We do not have access to escape or high mobility tools, because we are not escape classes.

sorrow.2364:

We are supposed to have viable constant heals thanks to blood magic, but would you define Blood Magic traitline as viable? No.

Who told you this? where did you get this misinformation? We have access to more viable methods to deal damage and heal ourselves with that damage than any other class in the game. Blood Magic is viable, your concept of the traitline is broken. You keep thinking we are like water elementalist. Except that’s incorrect because blood magic requires you to deal damage and gain heals from that.

Once again you are confusing attrition and defensive with healing.

sorrow.2364:

We are supposed to have access to a good amount of boons via spectral skill, but do we get enough boons? No, just compare it to Guardians or Elementalists.

Incorrect where do you get this information. Guess which class is the best at destroying boon classes? Necro’s! So let’s try this again.

How does boons translate to attrition? They don’t. Stop confusing an attrition class with a boon class. We have zero boon to damage traits so at what point did you confuse us with a boon class. And for Guardians and Elementalist to become that boon giant then they have to give up a lot. BTW, if you want to be entirely reliant on boons like the guardian than you are crazy. A temporary buff no thank you, give me DS anyday over the boon baby.

sorrow.2364:

We are supposed to be a profession which is hard to run away from, but do you think that the tools we have are enough? Do we feel that a Thief or an Elementalist has an hard time running away from you? No, just Shadow Refuge or RtL and they are miles away.

This is the first thing you have said that is correct. We are a pain in the kitten to flee from. RtL is usable every 25-30 seconds and is almost always used at the beginning of the fight. BTW, if they use RTL guess what I got to get them back. Chill plus DS 2. boom I am right back on them, thank you for participating. And when a theif runs (they all do) guess what that’s a WIN for me! I just won the attrition battle. He fought a fight he realized he was going to lose and fled.

You just took the two most mobile classes and used them as examples? That’s ridiculous. You know who can’t run from us, Warriors, Guadians, Rangers, Mesmers, and other Necro’s. You see what I mean by your problem. You are comparing us to the best of a specific niche.

sorrow.2364:

Of course we aren’t a profession which is supposed to be slippery as a Thief is, but we aren’t the profession the developers said we are meant to be, BY FAR.

We should be able to win attrition fight and impede enemy’s escapes as easy as a Thief burst down a single target and runs away, a Mesmer confused the emeny spamming clones or a Warrior deals massive damage in close range. This doesn’t happen in this game, unless we have played completely different games.

And this is the point I want to make.

Guess what happens when a thief misses his burst and can’t disappear – he dies. Guess what happens when you destroy a mesmer’s clones – he dies. Guess what happenes when a warrior misses 100b. He dies fast. They are niche classes we can avoid their damage and just keep trucking.

Adding on to what Bas said, my necro build has 6 slows in it. Nothing gets away from me except for thieves and eles, but even then I still have a good chance.

sorrow.2364:

Learning curve is strictly related to the overall balance level. … Because you don’t need to put efforts into the profession to get better, that’s the point.
In a well balanced game, an unskilled Thief should have a tough time with an unskilled Necro, same sitation should be at higher skill level but it absolutely doesn’t happen in this game, as you also pointed out.

That just isn’t accurate. The only way that every single class will have the same learning curve is if they all played exactly the same. The reality is that certain mechanics are really easy to learn and utilize, compared to others. I could easily show this via math and graphs, but I have a feeling that it’d go completely over most people’s heads here, but if you ever get a chance, look into differential equations, they have a lot about learning curves.

Lets use two over simplified situations to show this: A warrior build using all signets, and an elementalist build using very high CD abilities (use your imagination). Now, the warrior has 4 signets, these give passive benefits that almost always outweight active effects. He essentially has 5 abilities that he needs to use properly, since the signets are being used solely for their passive effects. His entry level strength is quite high, just running around auto attacking is 60% of his build being use perfectly already. However the skill cap is very low, he has very few skills to manage, and there isn’t much he can do to increase his ability besides this very easy management of a few, low risk skills. His learning curve is nearly non-existent, yet he caps out very quickly, and not really all that high.

Swap to the elementalist, they have 25 skills to manage, they need to properly switch attunements to make sure they are in the right one at the right time, and using the activate effects well. They must manage 25 CDs, 15 of which are hidden to them at any given time. They also have very high risk for improper use of their skills. Entry level at this build gives very low output, and would be completely stomped by an entry level warrior’s build. However, they have a very, very high skill cap. Perfect management of their 25 skills gives them tenfold increase in their strength, and that high skill cap means that, with time, they will surpass the warrior by a lot, because there is more reward for proper use of their abilities, whereas they also have high risk if improperly used.

Now wait a minute, according to you easy = OP. Well I think we can very easily disprove that in this example, while the warrior build is very easy (5 skill management, low risk), and gives good entry output, once we go towards approaching skill caps, the warrior is hopelessly underpowered against this ele, because he just doesn’t have much room to work, his perfect play only gives slight increases from unskilled play. But the ele’s skill play gives incredible returns compared to unskilled.

Easy =/= OP. OP simply means that the thing in question is too effective at what it does. This could be something incredibly difficult, like a mesmer build that relies on perfectly positioned and shattered clones and almost no survivability, or a thief pressing two buttons and killing dragons. OP has nothing to do with the skill required to get those OP results. UP means that the thing in question just isn’t effective at what it wants. With incredible skill it might be made to work, but it just doesn’t cut it at a high level when tiny things make the difference.

TL;DR you have no idea what OP is or what learning curves really mean.

Bas.7406:

Yes, your concept of what attrition is is broken. A large HP pool is exactly how attrition battles are won. Avoiding and escaping are not attrition, so if we are an attrition class why would we have escape tools. Thieves, ele’s, and mesmers are escape classes so mobility is needed they are hit n’run. …cut

Except that I said avoid enemy to escape, probably not the best verbal form, I should have said don’t let the enemy escape.
Anyway I didn’t said that we should be able to escape.

Bas.7406:

Defense and escape tools are not the same please learn the difference. We have blindness, chill, retaliation, cripple, and immobilize as well as protection and siphon heals these are all attrition and defensive tools. We have access to more than any other class in the game. We do not have access to escape or high mobility tools, because we are not escape classes.

Another completely missed point by you. I’ve never mentioned escapes in that part.
So I’ll jump this part because I wrote what I wanted to mean in the next part of my previous post.

Bas.7406:

Who told you this? where did you get this misinformation? We have access to more viable methods to deal damage and heal ourselves with that damage than any other class in the game. Blood Magic is viable, your concept of the traitline is broken. You keep thinking we are like water elementalist. Except that’s incorrect because blood magic requires you to deal damage and gain heals from that.

Once again you are confusing attrition and defensive with healing.

So, according to you, Blood Magic and our healing skill (excluding the main heals) which scale just bad with healing power are just fine? You think that being healed of about 2k HP (not scaling with healing power) over an HP pool of min 18k HP and on a 4s channeling is fine? You think that being healed for 46 hp (not scaling with healing power again) is fine? Man, this is not healing, this is just useless skill and traits, this is why none runs Blood Magic, the healing amount is low, the time to get those heals is way too long and none of the heals scales with healing power.

Bas.7406:

Incorrect where do you get this information. Guess which class is the best at destroying boon classes? Necro’s! So let’s try this again.

How does boons translate to attrition? They don’t. Stop confusing an attrition class with a boon class. We have zero boon to damage traits so at what point did you confuse us with a boon class. And for Guardians and Elementalist to become that boon giant then they have to give up a lot. BTW, if you want to be entirely reliant on boons like the guardian than you are crazy. A temporary buff no thank you, give me DS anyday over the boon baby.

Who cares about removing boon, man? This is not what we are talking about.
The point is that a good attrition class is supposed to have access to a good amount of defensive boons. Don’t justify everything we lack with DS.

Bas.7406:

This is the first thing you have said that is correct. We are a pain in the kitten to flee from. RtL is usable every 25-30 seconds and is almost always used at the beginning of the fight. BTW, if they use RTL guess what I got to get them back. Chill plus DS 2. boom I am right back on them, thank you for participating. And when a theif runs (they all do) guess what that’s a WIN for me! ..cut

We are supposed to be the worse nightmare of high mobility profession according to developers. We are supposed to let none escape from us, or at least give them an hard time to escape but this is by far not the case.

DS 2? You serious? The time the projectile reached the target it is out of range.

If a Thief manage to flee away from you it is a loss, not a win, because you failed to impair its escape and you are supposed to do so.

Bas.7406:

Guess what happens when a thief misses his burst and can’t disappear – he dies. Guess what happens when you destroy a mesmer’s clones – he dies. Guess what happenes when a warrior misses 100b. He dies fast. They are niche classes we can avoid their damage and just keep trucking.

When a Thief can’t disappear? Never. Because Thieves, on the other hand, are best at what they are supposed to do and can easily vanish and go away, thanks to the load of stealth skills they have.

When a Mesmer has its cloes down? Never. Because they have short cooldowns and are available in multiple ways. So they, also, are best at what they are supposed to do best.

When a Warrior misses 100b? Probably sometimes, but who cares when you can still deal 2k damage per sword/axe slash. So, they are also good at what they are supposed to be good at.

Bhawb.7408:

cut

So, taking back the Warrior-Elementalist example, in that case Warrior is underpowered because they are not able to perform as good as elementalists do at higher level of skills, as you said. So none, if he wants to play at high levels, should pick a Warrior because it is cut off from any high competitive environment and therefor putting efforts into getting good as a Warrior is pointless. Is that balance in your opinion. NOPE. No profession should be cut away from any situation or any skill level.

The learning curve thing apply also at high skill levels, not only low levels.

Conclusion: You should at least check what your examples and ideas logically imply, before saying I have no idea on what OP means.

No, see learning curves have to do only with time invested compared to returns at a given skill level. That example was contrived to do exactly what I wanted it to, and that was to show your ideas of OP and learning curves were absolutely fallacious, and if you had bothered to comprehend it, you would have seen that.

sorrow.2364:

Bhawb.7408:

cut

So, taking back the Warrior-Elementalist example, in that case Warrior is underpowered because they are not able to perform as good as elementalists do at higher level of skills, as you said. So none, if he wants to play at high levels, should pick a Warrior because it is cut off from any high competitive environment and therefor putting efforts into getting good as a Warrior is pointless. Is that balance in your opinion. NOPE. No profession should be cut away from any situation or any skill level.

The learning curve thing apply also at high skill levels, not only low levels.

Conclusion: You should at least check what your examples and ideas logically imply, before saying I have no idea on what OP means.

Except you are incorrect in your assumptions. The lower skilled class can triumph over a high skilled class because there is less room for error. Because more people are able to play warriors than ele’s well you have class balance. A higher skill cap which is only attainable by a few can beat a similarly skilled warrior with all things being perfect. Because we are not perfect, the ele has a higher probability of losing the fight, and will definitely lose to a skilled warrior if he makes a single mistake.

This is the definition of balance. OP would be if the warrior was the best class to play regardless of player. The thief before they nerfed BS and HB were the definition of OP. You could press two buttons and no one could survive. That is OP.

You simply proved yoru inability to understand OP. OP is when a simple thing can wreck a complex thing regardless of skill level. In the case of the Ele versus Warrior, the Warrior will wreck the ele if the ele makes a dumb mistake. If the ele doesn’t the warrior will lose.

+1 to what Bas said. To simplify it, OP is just something that lacks counterplay.

Bhawb.7408:

sorrow.2364:

Learning curve is strictly related to the overall balance level. … Because you don’t need to put efforts into the profession to get better, that’s the point.
In a well balanced game, an unskilled Thief should have a tough time with an unskilled Necro, same sitation should be at higher skill level but it absolutely doesn’t happen in this game, as you also pointed out.

That just isn’t accurate. The only way that every single class will have the same learning curve is if they all played exactly the same. The reality is that certain mechanics are really easy to learn and utilize, compared to others. I could easily show this via math and graphs, but I have a feeling that it’d go completely over most people’s heads here, but if you ever get a chance, look into differential equations, they have a lot about learning curves.

Lets use two over simplified situations to show this: A warrior build using all signets, and an elementalist build using very high CD abilities (use your imagination). Now, the warrior has 4 signets, these give passive benefits that almost always outweight active effects. He essentially has 5 abilities that he needs to use properly, since the signets are being used solely for their passive effects. His entry level strength is quite high, just running around auto attacking is 60% of his build being use perfectly already. However the skill cap is very low, he has very few skills to manage, and there isn’t much he can do to increase his ability besides this very easy management of a few, low risk skills. His learning curve is nearly non-existent, yet he caps out very quickly, and not really all that high.

Swap to the elementalist, they have 25 skills to manage, they need to properly switch attunements to make sure they are in the right one at the right time, and using the activate effects well. They must manage 25 CDs, 15 of which are hidden to them at any given time. They also have very high risk for improper use of their skills. Entry level at this build gives very low output, and would be completely stomped by an entry level warrior’s build. However, they have a very, very high skill cap. Perfect management of their 25 skills gives them tenfold increase in their strength, and that high skill cap means that, with time, they will surpass the warrior by a lot, because there is more reward for proper use of their abilities, whereas they also have high risk if improperly used.

Now wait a minute, according to you easy = OP. Well I think we can very easily disprove that in this example, while the warrior build is very easy (5 skill management, low risk), and gives good entry output, once we go towards approaching skill caps, the warrior is hopelessly underpowered against this ele, because he just doesn’t have much room to work, his perfect play only gives slight increases from unskilled play. But the ele’s skill play gives incredible returns compared to unskilled.

Easy =/= OP. OP simply means that the thing in question is too effective at what it does. This could be something incredibly difficult, like a mesmer build that relies on perfectly positioned and shattered clones and almost no survivability, or a thief pressing two buttons and killing dragons. OP has nothing to do with the skill required to get those OP results. UP means that the thing in question just isn’t effective at what it wants. With incredible skill it might be made to work, but it just doesn’t cut it at a high level when tiny things make the difference.

TL;DR you have no idea what OP is or what learning curves really mean.

Actually in wvw zerg vs zerg, with massive graphic lag and network lag, that auto attack signet warrior would probably beat the 25 skills ele. No skills used=warrior wins.

I just want to point out that, even if you were right, wvw is not so clear cut and dry. Most of the time the simpler, easier to use, non-situational builds would win when you take everything into account.

When you are already surrounded by enemy zergs there is little time to think or plan. You would win or die in 30 seconds. There is no time to plan, and no errors allowed. You want to hit the “I Win” button and win. You want to hit the “I Escape” button and escape. For thieves the “I Win” is Heat Seeker and “I Escape” is stealth. For eles the “I Win” is Updraft+whatever and “I Escape” is Ride the Lightning. Necros do not have “I Win” or “I Escape”, and hence for game balance they would need something else to compensate. However the compensation is seriously lacking.

I think in the above scenario, we do have an “I win” button if you run a pow/prec/tough build. It’s called Lich form. 4-6k #1, underrated #4 and situational #3 = bags-a-plenty.

Talentless.5708:

I think in the above scenario, we do have an “I win” button if you run a pow/prec/tough build. It’s called Lich form. 4-6k #1, underrated #4 and situational #3 = bags-a-plenty.

If I remember correctly, doesn’t Lich 1 pierce?