Necromancer Sustain

Necromancer Sustain

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Posted by: Sororita.3465

Sororita.3465

As like any thread, this is my person opinion.

Necromancer sustain, primarily in SPvP and WvW needs a rework. With new profession abilities and damage as a whole being increased, it has felt harder than ever before to play an attrition play style. It has always been easier for other classes to invest more into offensive stats and keep the same base survivability than a necromancer.

Siphons are not as strong as they need to be. Healing from siphons in shroud was a step in the right direction but more can be done to make them viable. Heart of Thorns has increased everyone’s damage but yet our siphons have remained low.

Let’s take a look at the numbers at 0 healing power:

  • Life Siphon Healing 40
  • Minion Healing 57
  • Vamperic Presence 34
  • Vamperic Rituals 111
  • Augury of Death 132

With 1200 healing power ( cleric amulet):

  • Life Siphon Healing 47
  • Minion Healing 84
  • Vamperic Presence 40
  • Vamperic Rituals 125
  • Augury of Death 156

Let’s compare these to other classes siphons(not all may be listed):

  • Guardian Zealous Blade 29-53
  • Revnant Assassin’s Annihilation 324-444 ( 1 second cool down).

As you can see by the numbers, other classes siphons scale better with Healing power than a necromancer’s. Basic life siphon only gains an additional 7 healing with 1200 healing power. What’s even the point of this? (One can argue that we can have multiple additional siphons at once but at a maximum only three can be applied at the same time. I feel that minion siphons, well siphons and shout siphons are mutually exclusive. They cannot all be implement effectively at the same time. This still doesn’t account for the ridiculously small affect that healing power has on Siphons) A necromancer who chooses to invest in healing power should be able to have that healing power increase all healing by a reasonable amount not just a few select skills.

I propose this question, would a 5% healing coefficient be over- powered? I personally don’t think so. With 1000 healing power it would increase siphon heals by 50, making a 90 healing per hit total. With this much investment into healing power, it would be offset by the reduction in damage we’d deal, if that investment was into offensive stats. An argument could be made for even 10% healing coefficient but i feel that’d be to much.

Mark of Evasion compared to other dodge skills ( wearing a celestial amulet for comparison purposes) doesn’t warrant it’s cool down cost. ( Information taken from http://en.gw2skills.net/editor)

  • Mark of evasion- 125 damage, 2 bleed stacks, 5 3/4 sec regen (8sec CD)
  • Guardian Selfless Daring- 864 healing (No CD)
  • Warrior Reckless Dodge- 518 damage (No CD)
  • Thief uncatchable- 1 bleed stack, 5 sec cripple ( in addition to Daredevil evades but these are not counted due to being Grandmaster Traits)
  • Elementalist evasive arcana-Based on attunement ( No CD but is a Grandmaster Trait)
  • Revnant Unwavering Avoidance- 2 3/4 seconds of Stability (No CD)

I would like to add that the 10 sec CD on Engineer’s Evasive powder keg (518 damage) is also not warranted. Why would this trait have a 10 sec CD when the warrior’s Reckless Dodge does exactly the same damage but doesn’t have a cool down?
Necromancers have the least access to Vigor and endurance regeneration out of all the professions but yet is one of the only ones that has a cool down on their dodge trait. The added regeneration added by a no CD mark of evasion would put us more inline with a more attrition based game play.

As stated many times before by many people, Necromancer’s would benefit heavily from Vital Persistence being made baseline or Strength of Undeath being increased. As a base Necromancer i never felt a need to have these increased before HoT. After HoT i feel that life force drains faster than ever before due to the increased damage of every profession. I propose that Reaper Shroud has an additional 15% increase in life force over Death Shroud, reason being that in order to use Reaper Shroud one must be in melee range while Death Shroud can be effective up to 1200 range.

These are just a few of my thoughts i’d like to share at this time, has anyone felt the same way? ( that necromancer sustain needs an increase when playing an attrition based play style ).

Commander Starlight Honeybuns[BUNS]
Timelord to Lillium Honeybuns, IoJ
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(edited by Sororita.3465)

Necromancer Sustain

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Posted by: Muchacho.2390

Muchacho.2390

Our siphons were always bad for the sustain type play. Honestly if you really want to play the sustain typ builds run blighters boon and spite with some boon generating sigils/runes.

Necromancer Sustain

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Posted by: Sororita.3465

Sororita.3465

Our siphons were always bad for the sustain type play. Honestly if you really want to play the sustain typ builds run blighters boon and spite with some boon generating sigils/runes.

That doesn’t help the problem, telling someone to play something else shouldn’t be a response to every argument. There are reasons that there are multiple trait lines, those focusing on offense, those focusing on condition, those focusing on minions and damage reduction and those focusing on healing rather than just the same for everyone.

Guild Wars 2 has always been a play your own way kind of game and i find it unfair that not all play styles, especially one befitting our profession, is not represented as strong as the others.

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Timelord to Lillium Honeybuns, IoJ
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Necromancer Sustain

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Posted by: Muchacho.2390

Muchacho.2390

Our siphons were always bad for the sustain type play. Honestly if you really want to play the sustain typ builds run blighters boon and spite with some boon generating sigils/runes.

That doesn’t help the problem, telling someone to play something else shouldn’t be a response to every argument. There are reasons that there are multiple trait lines, those focusing on offense, those focusing on condition, those focusing on minions and damage reduction and those focusing on healing rather than just the same for everyone.

Guild Wars 2 has always been a play your own way kind of game and i find it unfair that not all play styles, especially one befitting our profession, is not represented as strong as the others.

True that doesnt help with the fact that our deathmagic and bloodmagic lines are not the best for a sustain based playstyle (to say it in a nice way) but you are wrong if you say that playing a attrition/sustain style on necro is harder then before HoT when infact it is now easier.

Necromancer Sustain

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Posted by: Sororita.3465

Sororita.3465

#ThatsAnetForYou

#Knowthisafter3years #Stillhopenowandagain

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Necromancer Sustain

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Posted by: Muchacho.2390

Muchacho.2390

Our siphons were always bad for the sustain type play. Honestly if you really want to play the sustain typ builds run blighters boon and spite with some boon generating sigils/runes.

That doesn’t help the problem, telling someone to play something else shouldn’t be a response to every argument. There are reasons that there are multiple trait lines, those focusing on offense, those focusing on condition, those focusing on minions and damage reduction and those focusing on healing rather than just the same for everyone.

Guild Wars 2 has always been a play your own way kind of game and i find it unfair that not all play styles, especially one befitting our profession, is not represented as strong as the others.

True that doesnt help with the fact that our deathmagic and bloodmagic lines are not the best for a sustain based playstyle (to say it in a nice way) but you are wrong if you say that playing a attrition/sustain style on necro is harder then before HoT when infact it is now easier.

Necromancer Sustain

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Posted by: Sororita.3465

Sororita.3465

True that doesnt help with the fact that our deathmagic and bloodmagic lines are not the best for a sustain based playstyle (to say it in a nice way) but you are wrong if you say that playing a attrition/sustain style on necro is harder then before HoT when infact it is now easier.

If you have the time i’d like you to explian how please. I primarily WvW roam/zerg, with the addition of HoT it has become easier for many classes to go full damage due to their profession. I would argue that it has become harder due to everyone doing more damage with added suvivability.

Doesn’t also the fact that you yourself admit that our defensive lines are not the best for an attrition/sustain style of play speak volumes?

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Timelord to Lillium Honeybuns, IoJ
Forever together, or not at all.

Necromancer Sustain

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Posted by: Muchacho.2390

Muchacho.2390

True that doesnt help with the fact that our deathmagic and bloodmagic lines are not the best for a sustain based playstyle (to say it in a nice way) but you are wrong if you say that playing a attrition/sustain style on necro is harder then before HoT when infact it is now easier.

If you have the time i’d like you to explian how please. I primarily WvW roam/zerg, with the addition of HoT it has become easier for many classes to go full damage due to their profession. I would argue that it has become harder due to everyone doing more damage with added suvivability.

Doesn’t also the fact that you yourself admit that our defensive lines are not the best for an attrition/sustain style of play speak volumes?

Yes it speaks volumes when spite+ blighter boons (even in is nerfed state) gives much better sustain then our defensive lines but that doesnt mean we cannot play the sustain style. Our best sustain builds just simply dont take those lines.

Mhh maybe i have to clearify what i meant. It was never my intantion to say bloodmagic or deathmagic is fine, i only wanted to say that we can do the sustain playstyle just not with those lines.

Edit: Also why the hell would you even want to run a sustain build for wvw roaming? Every other player will just disengage when he realises that he is fighting a losing battle.

(edited by Muchacho.2390)

Necromancer Sustain

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Posted by: Bhawb.7408

Bhawb.7408

Blood Magic alone grants up to 6 source of sustain, most of which proc constantly, as opposed to the more occasional proc of other traits. Also, most of our sustain isn’t purely defensive, all of what you list also deals damage that ignores toughness. So every hit of Vampiric swings the HP differences by double its listed value. That isn’t to say that there aren’t specific traits or skills that need help, but sustain traits isn’t what is making us weak sustain wise when MM, shout reaper, and various other builds can pick up acceptable sustain just fine.

The thing holding us back is the lack of proper defensive options that allow us to leverage our sustain; just look at our sustain 1v1, which borders on oppressive in many matchups, compared to teamfighting. The thing holding us back now is stuff like reasonable access to stability to allow us to continue applying our sustain-granting abilities (poison, weakness, chill, healing, life force, etc.), blocks or invulns to stall for CDs or Shroud, Spectral Mastery and some Spectrals being weak which limits some burst LF/protection options. But realistically the builds that are able to leverage our sustain have insane sustain, I’ve never seen someone complain that MM couldn’t sustain enough.

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Necromancer Sustain

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Posted by: Pelopidas.2140

Pelopidas.2140

OP our siphons work in shroud, i find this pretty important, if an ele that sustains can at the same time take a 10k hit, its all for nothing.
Also Life from Death scales really well with Healing Power if you give up Vamp Aura.

Necromancer Sustain

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Posted by: Sororita.3465

Sororita.3465

The reason i wish to build for sustain is due to the roaming meta. Professions such as revnant, thieves, and mesmers have many sources of damage mitigation such as blocks, stealth, evades, teleports and strong healing/condition removal. If i build full zerker as you would have me then i’d be dead in short order after not being able to damage them. Blighter’s boon doesn’t do anything against people who can out maneuver you. The fact that our defensive lines arn’t as effective as other professions is worrisome, especially when we have to trait for it and most of their sustainability comes from weapons and utilities.

Concerning the sustain of a MM, in SPvP they have no trouble. In WvW it’s as easy as one soul spiral to kill their minions. Minions a majority of the time do not work. Even so, the healing coefficient on siphons is still extremely low.

40 damage going through toughness is laughable on base siphon, especially seeming a revnant can do atleast 6 times that, all be it on a 1 sec CD ( which is still more).

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Necromancer Sustain

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Posted by: Sororita.3465

Sororita.3465

The fact that sustain from our defensive lines is far inferior to other lines, save MM in SPvP, doesn’t warrant a change is alarming to hear from you both.

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Necromancer Sustain

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Posted by: Bhawb.7408

Bhawb.7408

If i build full zerker as you would have me then i’d be dead in short order after not being able to damage them.

There is no possible way for balanced sustain to allow a full glass build to survive through another glass build’s burst. Which was my entire second point, sustain isn’t the issue, its our lack of ability to always apply that sustain effectively. There is a huge difference between sustain and what you are asking for.

Blighter’s boon doesn’t do anything against people who can out maneuver you. The fact that our defensive lines arn’t as effective as other professions is worrisome, especially when we have to trait for it and most of their sustainability comes from weapons and utilities.

First we have far more sources of boons that don’t require any

Concerning the sustain of a MM, in SPvP they have no trouble. In WvW it’s as easy as one soul spiral to kill their minions. Minions a majority of the time do not work. Even so, the healing coefficient on siphons is still extremely low.

Then the MM is running a kitten build. You can heal your minions for 10k with a single Transfusion/Life from Death, on top of their base HP which is the same as mid to high base HP for players.

Also yes, the coefficient is low per hit, but you can’t look at it on a per-siphon context. Locust Swarm alone can proc 125 Vampirics, each well can proc at least 25 Vampiric Rituals, and the damage absolutely matters within the context of how powerful the skill can be. These coefficients also build up, considering we have AoE or multi-hit on almost everything, and they can heal you while effectively invulnerable in Shroud. Look at Life from Death, a very nice support trait, which has only 0.15 healing power coefficients per second even in ideal situations. Now could they maybe have the scaling buffed a bit? Potentially, but that won’t be affecting many builds much, since MM is the only current “meta” build that uses Cleric’s anyway, and in your own example zerker would get almost nothing from scaling changes.

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Necromancer Sustain

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Posted by: Sororita.3465

Sororita.3465

By all means, go roam in WvW against actual roaming guilds. Yes siphons have increase potency versus additional targets but additional targets means more damage on you. WvW is not SPvP, people dont stand in confined spaces and allow you to hit them. Biggest complaint about the necromancer and now reaper is that they can be out maneuvered, seeming all that addressed that was a 600 range leap i proposing that our sustainability, through siphons, be increased.

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(edited by Sororita.3465)

Necromancer Sustain

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Posted by: Sororita.3465

Sororita.3465

The problem with minion siphons in WvW is that even with 50% added hp to minions they can still be downed rather quickly. Secondly they have a hard time staying on their targets, this isnt through some fault of the AI, althought it may be, but because people just move too faster, minions are rather slow in comparison.

Since HoT, toughness/armor don’t work like they did before. I like to run builds with at least 3k armor, personal preference above anything. In the past this would be able to negate a lot of damage, now that is not the case. I routinely get hit much harder than i ever have, they seemed to have given everyone too many new toys and haven’t balanced them yet.

The fact is that other classes have an easier time due to their active defenses and mobility, things we sorely lack. Rather than they redesign our class, i’d prefer they buff what we have.

I’m not against them also changing Greatsword #1 into a 300-450 range cleave with the Reaper’s touch animation ( focus #4).

You mentioned you’d want active defenses, fitting the necromancer theme, which would you suggest?

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(edited by Sororita.3465)

Necromancer Sustain

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Posted by: Bhawb.7408

Bhawb.7408

Biggest complaint about the necromancer and now reaper is that they can be out maneuvered, seeming all that addressed that was a 600 range leap i proposing that our sustainability, through siphons, be increased.

So once again the issue is applying sustain, not the sustain itself. If you can’t sustain because people can avoid you, the answer isn’t to just buff siphoning until the rare hit you get is enough on its own to sustain you, the answer is give you counterplay against that kiting. Things like Grasping Darkness being better, Spectral Grasp, targeted gap closers, improvements to weak skills that have room for this (Dark Pact), etc.

The problem with minion siphons in WvW is that even with 50% added hp to minions they can still be downed rather quickly. Secondly they have a hard time staying on their targets, this isnt through some fault of the AI, althought it may be, but because people just move too faster, minions are rather slow in comparison.

Then the MM isn’t doing their job. There is access to at least 6.5s of hard CC in any MM build (Dagger 3, Shroud 3/5, Charge), you can pick up another 8s from Bone Fiend, 1s from Staff, if you can’t lock people down reasonably well with that, they’ll never be locked down. And I’d be interested to know what is killing minions so quickly through 25k effective HP.

I’m also not going to argue that WvW is a place to balance around, because it isn’t. It has never been balanced, it never will be balanced, and it can’t be balanced.

The fact is that other classes have an easier time due to their active defenses and mobility, things we sorely lack. Rather than they redesign our class, i’d prefer they buff what we have.

It isn’t a redesign to have some better mechanics. What you are asking for simply can’t happen, we can’t be able to just sustain through everything in every build. We either get better mechanics, or we stay where we are.

You mentioned you’d want active defenses, fitting the necromancer theme, which would you suggest?

Better Unholy Sanctuary as a cheat death mechanic (look at what Berserker got)
Death Magic or Soul Reaping could have a trait that does something like “for X seconds upon entering shroud, LF degeneration is doubled, but damage does not affect your LF total”
A skill or trait with a mechanic like League’s Death’s Dance. Could function passively, where say 20% of direct damage taken is applied over Xs instead, or an effect that activates when we hit an HP threshold, or something that mitigates damage taken over a certain amount (when you take more than X% of your max HP in Y period of time, that damage is instead applied over Z seconds)
Blocks/invulns and stability on active skills, a great place would be a new non-elite tied OH weapon with one or both
An effect that allows all damage taken to be taken directly out of LF instead of HP, without being in shroud

There are plenty of ideas, many of them work well by more actively utilizing Life Force, by both granting better LF generation and some non-shroud ways to use it. Plus there is just applying certain mechanics that others get (so long as they aren’t free-mobility or running away related) like blocks/invuln/stab.

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Posted by: Amethyst Lure.5624

Amethyst Lure.5624

Others have touched on it but, I feel like you can’t make cross-class comparisons that simply. While Revenant can get a ton of sustain they have to build fairly wierdly to do it. In Necro’s case, it’s a lot of sources combined AND skills that often hit very many times (wells, axe #2, daggers in general etc).

You also have to factor in Shroud. As long as it serves as a second hp bar also, it’s always going to mean that if you can spend a significant amount of time losing ‘hp’ there the regen for your actual hp bar becomes more and more valuable over time, not in numbers healed but just generally reducing the chance to take a big hit and get downed.

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Posted by: Sororita.3465

Sororita.3465

It’s more likely for a developer to tweak a current ability by the numbers than to redesign a profession. You’re even asking for a new OH weapon which i regret to inform you that the next planetary alignment wont be for a long time.

Get over Necromancers having Invulns and blocks, it’s not going to happen.

Change Foot in the Grave to work like Shrouded Removal, one stack upon entry to shroud and an additional stack every 3 seconds.

Have Unholy sanctuary activate when a percentage of your total health is lost by a single blow in addition to a protection from a lethal blow. Necromancers are treated as Paladins from WoW, once a necromancer exits shroud(Paladin bubbles for example), everyone focuses for an easy kill. This is my reasoning behind siphon buffs and additional regeneration up time.Would allow for a way to mitigate enemy burst much like they can do to ours with their invulns/blocks. Keeping it more of a necromancer theme and more in line with our current abilities. Once again it’s easier to get a developer to buff a current ability than to create a whole new one.

Reaper Shroud needs additional survivability than Death shroud due to range limitations. Two things can either be done, increase life force in Reaper Shroud over Death shroud or swiftness now increases movement speed by 40% instead of 33% (much like an elementalist’s hardy conduit).

All suggestions aside, the biggest problem is damage after HoT’s release. Defensive stats really didnt contribute much before the release and even less after. Guild Wars 2 is not a one shot shooter. Other classes by design still have an easier time surviving even as full glass compared to a bunker necromancer. In perfect balance, a pure damage versus pure bunker fight should be a stale mate if both players don’t make any mistakes, this isn’t where Guild Wars is.

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Timelord to Lillium Honeybuns, IoJ
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