Guild Wars 2

http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Necromancer_-_Celestial_Signet

Read it and weep glowing tears, for the first time since the dhuumfire condi power creep fiasco, the necromancer is considered part of the “most efficient something that starts with T and A thingy category”, as documented by metabattle, the bastion of knowledge over all things meta.

Granted this is largelt because of the abjured winning WTS with a necro in their comp, but this build has seen lots of us in NA by various people on other teams. I had initially predicted that the rampage nerf and the death of mantras would enable cele signet necro to take the spot once held by rampage warrior, and I’m glad to know that my predictions were confirmed!

So how does it feel to finally be considered meta after so many years of being a niche pick in spvp? I for one am extremely proud of all the tourney necros out there that worked so hard to get us there, even if the whole concept of a meta is odd to begin with. I’m just glad to know that necros are finally considered great in a game mode that isn’t WvW.

I find it hilarious that abjured winning is what solidifies this as meta, when Nos was fighting the respawn timer almost as much as he was fighting the enemy (no offense to him, he makes do on a really tough profession).

That build is made to hold points until help comes. Ironically the dd eles did the same jobs, but with less deaths, and they have great mobility to boot. This isn’t a knock on Nos at all, he did all he could given the toolset available to him, and he played well and made some great moves during the final. My problem is with the necro class and how they (devs and some players) think necros are so great at being tanky. When the tournament showed necros were getting destroyed left & right.

To be fair, part of that was their strategy. Basically they had the 4 tanks stall on purpse while toker ran around the map decapping everything. Its because they new they didn’t have a chance of winning any fights that had the bunker guard in it.

Necro was only Meta during the very short lived ‘Dhuumfire era’ and has been reduced to obscurity since. The main problem here is that people are SO caught up in the ‘meta’ that very few consider running a ‘counter-meta build’. This is what the Cele Necro represents (and what Ne cro has always represented, for that matter.) I made this clear in the “Why don’t people run Meta” thread a while ago. This has always been my approach with Necro since starting to PvP with it last January-ish (had PvPed Mesmer since launch.) Although, I’m no hero of the Necro/PvP community, it is obvious that Necro is, and has always meant to be, a ‘counter profession’. Yes, there are some needed improvements (ie. 16 bugs went w/o fixing for well over two years), but the main problem with Necro being part of the Meta is people taking for granted that there could be an ‘ànti-meta that is just important. Necro has been wrecking d/d Ele LONG before this weekend, for instance. It’s just that ‘counter-meta’ has never (ever) been considered as a viable approach. With the recent buffs/bug-fixes to Necro, that idea/approach is coming to light.

Note: this counter-meta’ has always existed, but it was ALWAYS within the Meta itself (ie. Bunker vs Burst Meta). It’s only now that, with recent build changes, that this idea has become much more obscure/obvious (if that could ever make sense.)

A build on Meta Battle does not change anything, the build is good, i run a slightly different version in WvW too. But props to the Abjured that they have the balls to bring a class which has been Antimeta ever since with small execptions.

But to be honest i am not bothered by that any more, it´s the opposite i am proud that the necro is not meta and i hope it will never get Meta as long as “Meta” in GW2 means “pls play the most Aids build available”.

gavyne.6847:

That build is made to hold points until help comes. Ironically the dd eles did the same jobs, but with less deaths, and they have great mobility to boot. This isn’t a knock on Nos at all, he did all he could given the toolset available to him, and he played well and made some great moves during the final. My problem is with the necro class and how they (devs and some players) think necros are so great at being tanky. When the tournament showed necros were getting destroyed left & right.

It’s a little more specific than that I think.

1. A good Necro prevents an enemy Ele from camping your home node.
2. Just about as useful as a Bunker Guardian in 1v1, not nearly as good in 2v1, but has the ability to kill while at it. Bunker Guard is a waste in 1v1’s anyway and is best with his/her teammates around.
3. Doesn’t use Invulns for bunkering, which means you can camp a node without losing it purely from being defensive.
4. Plague is a great way to tank a node BUT it’s usually a great distraction for a losing fight. Use it and your teammates can leave to the next node while you hold out for 20 seconds. You’re a Necro, not like you were going to be able to run away anyway.

Just my observations.

Out of all the members of Abjured, I’d say Nos did the least to win them that WTS.
I 100% believe he would have been better off running any other bruiser specc on another class.

That said, he did have some clutch moments of stalling oRNG at crucial moments. But the win was without a trace of doubt due to Toker and his rotations. They definitely didn’t have the upper hand in fights, that’s for sure.

Bhawb.7408:

I find it hilarious that abjured winning is what solidifies this as meta, when Nos was fighting the respawn timer almost as much as he was fighting the enemy (no offense to him, he makes do on a really tough profession).

Meta – the other wording for “let’s copy paste exact builds winning team uses”.

Not like it’s something new. Metabattle has been doing this elevation thing since the creation.

As much as i like to play necro, no website can convince me its on par with the rest…

Aktium.9506:

Out of all the members of Abjured, I’d say Nos did the least to win them that WTS.
I 100% believe he would have been better off running any other bruiser specc on another class.

That said, he did have some clutch moments of stalling oRNG at crucial moments. But the win was without a trace of doubt due to Toker and his rotations. They definitely didn’t have the upper hand in fights, that’s for sure.

The team already had 2 eles and a soldiers engi, what other viable bruiser builds besides cele/soldiers necro are there in this meta?

Not to be a kitten or anything but the cele necro signet build was up on the META site way before the WTS happend. It was definitely not because of Nos playing it in the WTS.

Not here to offer an opinion, just wondering if there’s somewhere I can watch the replays of the tournament (I’m a learn by example learner)

I still think minion mancer is superior to signet but what do I know

Azure.8670:

I still think minion mancer is superior to signet but what do I know

You are not the only one, only AI issues are holding MM back but cele signet is kind of overrated there is an even thread in PvP section saying it better than cele ele.

Sagat.3285:

Azure.8670:

I still think minion mancer is superior to signet but what do I know

You are not the only one, only AI issues are holding MM back but cele signet is kind of overrated there is an even thread in PvP section saying it better than cele ele.

Yeah I am starting to see that cele signets is overrated. Mainly because, while it is amazing in 1v1s, it really isn’t that strong in teamfights since necro is so easy to focus. Due to that I’ve switched to a soldier’s variation of the build that uses blood magic instead of curses, although curses could might still be better since death perception lets you proc the curses proc traits.. hmmmm…

Yeah.. I’ve never really been into minion builds, but I do think that tanky power builds that are bruiser-esque in design and focus are our strongest choices, which MM technically classifies as, I just like the mightstacking and utility of signets for now.

nearlight.3064:

Sagat.3285:

Azure.8670:

I still think minion mancer is superior to signet but what do I know

You are not the only one, only AI issues are holding MM back but cele signet is kind of overrated there is an even thread in PvP section saying it better than cele ele.

Yeah I am starting to see that cele signets is overrated. Mainly because, while it is amazing in 1v1s, it really isn’t that strong in teamfights since necro is so easy to focus. Due to that I’ve switched to a soldier’s variation of the build that uses blood magic instead of curses, although curses could might still be better since death perception lets you proc the curses proc traits.. hmmmm…

Yeah.. I’ve never really been into minion builds, but I do think that tanky power builds that are bruiser-esque in design and focus are our strongest choices, which MM technically classifies as, I just like the mightstacking and utility of signets for now.

Try a Soldier SR/BM/S Spectral Well build. That’ll give you a fair bit of durability and plenty of bruising power. I’ve been running one that I really like and unless my team kittens itself for some Grenth forsaken reason, it does really well, including in team fights (plenty of AoE and enough focus with dagger aa that you take down players too)

Vydahr.4285:

nearlight.3064:

Sagat.3285:

Azure.8670:

I still think minion mancer is superior to signet but what do I know

You are not the only one, only AI issues are holding MM back but cele signet is kind of overrated there is an even thread in PvP section saying it better than cele ele.

Yeah I am starting to see that cele signets is overrated. Mainly because, while it is amazing in 1v1s, it really isn’t that strong in teamfights since necro is so easy to focus. Due to that I’ve switched to a soldier’s variation of the build that uses blood magic instead of curses, although curses could might still be better since death perception lets you proc the curses proc traits.. hmmmm…

Yeah.. I’ve never really been into minion builds, but I do think that tanky power builds that are bruiser-esque in design and focus are our strongest choices, which MM technically classifies as, I just like the mightstacking and utility of signets for now.

Try a Soldier SR/BM/S Spectral Well build. That’ll give you a fair bit of durability and plenty of bruising power. I’ve been running one that I really like and unless my team kittens itself for some Grenth forsaken reason, it does really well, including in team fights (plenty of AoE and enough focus with dagger aa that you take down players too)

I see the advantage to using wells (protection) but I prefer signets. Other than that and utility based trait choices the builds we came up with are probably pretty similar.

nearlight.3064:

Vydahr.4285:

nearlight.3064:

Sagat.3285:

Azure.8670:

I still think minion mancer is superior to signet but what do I know

You are not the only one, only AI issues are holding MM back but cele signet is kind of overrated there is an even thread in PvP section saying it better than cele ele.

Yeah I am starting to see that cele signets is overrated. Mainly because, while it is amazing in 1v1s, it really isn’t that strong in teamfights since necro is so easy to focus. Due to that I’ve switched to a soldier’s variation of the build that uses blood magic instead of curses, although curses could might still be better since death perception lets you proc the curses proc traits.. hmmmm…

Yeah.. I’ve never really been into minion builds, but I do think that tanky power builds that are bruiser-esque in design and focus are our strongest choices, which MM technically classifies as, I just like the mightstacking and utility of signets for now.

Try a Soldier SR/BM/S Spectral Well build. That’ll give you a fair bit of durability and plenty of bruising power. I’ve been running one that I really like and unless my team kittens itself for some Grenth forsaken reason, it does really well, including in team fights (plenty of AoE and enough focus with dagger aa that you take down players too)

I see the advantage to using wells (protection) but I prefer signets. Other than that and utility based trait choices the builds we came up with are probably pretty similar.

It’s also a fair bit of damage in a large AoE. In a team fight where there’s more going on, you’re going to be hitting two or three (or more) people for somewhere around 6k damage, which is not fun for light armor classes, and not exactly negligible on heavy armor. And that’s base. If you make full bloodlust stacks, it bumps it to 7k (non-critting, mind.) And at 20 might stacks, the two damage wells will hit fro about 8500 damage over six seconds. To up to five targets. That can turn a team fight pretty well if timed right.

The build I use that I get those numbers from: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vRAQNBIhZakjGapxaaw2G4wxBuQBbzAoFmFxJUF0zIOeWA-TZRBwAbOEA02focZgFnAAAPBAA

Vydahr.4285:

nearlight.3064:

Vydahr.4285:

nearlight.3064:

Sagat.3285:

Azure.8670:

I still think minion mancer is superior to signet but what do I know

You are not the only one, only AI issues are holding MM back but cele signet is kind of overrated there is an even thread in PvP section saying it better than cele ele.

Yeah I am starting to see that cele signets is overrated. Mainly because, while it is amazing in 1v1s, it really isn’t that strong in teamfights since necro is so easy to focus. Due to that I’ve switched to a soldier’s variation of the build that uses blood magic instead of curses, although curses could might still be better since death perception lets you proc the curses proc traits.. hmmmm…

Yeah.. I’ve never really been into minion builds, but I do think that tanky power builds that are bruiser-esque in design and focus are our strongest choices, which MM technically classifies as, I just like the mightstacking and utility of signets for now.

Try a Soldier SR/BM/S Spectral Well build. That’ll give you a fair bit of durability and plenty of bruising power. I’ve been running one that I really like and unless my team kittens itself for some Grenth forsaken reason, it does really well, including in team fights (plenty of AoE and enough focus with dagger aa that you take down players too)

I see the advantage to using wells (protection) but I prefer signets. Other than that and utility based trait choices the builds we came up with are probably pretty similar.

It’s also a fair bit of damage in a large AoE. In a team fight where there’s more going on, you’re going to be hitting two or three (or more) people for somewhere around 6k damage, which is not fun for light armor classes, and not exactly negligible on heavy armor. And that’s base. If you make full bloodlust stacks, it bumps it to 7k (non-critting, mind.) And at 20 might stacks, the two damage wells will hit fro about 8500 damage over six seconds. To up to five targets. That can turn a team fight pretty well if timed right.

The build I use that I get those numbers from: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vRAQNBIhZakjGapxaaw2G4wxBuQBbzAoFmFxJUF0zIOeWA-TZRBwAbOEA02focZgFnAAAPBAA

I’ll give it a try tomorrow if I have time. My build is basically the same thing with vamp/locust/plague signets, transfusion, blood bond, SoS, life from death, vital persistence, and unyielding blast, so actually its very different.

Since while my build is great for rezzing people with transfusion and whatnot, its downcleave isn’t as good since it doesn’t have wells, although the signet might helps with might stacking faster.

nearlight.3064:

Vydahr.4285:

nearlight.3064:

Vydahr.4285:

nearlight.3064:

Sagat.3285:

Azure.8670:

I still think minion mancer is superior to signet but what do I know

You are not the only one, only AI issues are holding MM back but cele signet is kind of overrated there is an even thread in PvP section saying it better than cele ele.

Yeah I am starting to see that cele signets is overrated. Mainly because, while it is amazing in 1v1s, it really isn’t that strong in teamfights since necro is so easy to focus. Due to that I’ve switched to a soldier’s variation of the build that uses blood magic instead of curses, although curses could might still be better since death perception lets you proc the curses proc traits.. hmmmm…

Yeah.. I’ve never really been into minion builds, but I do think that tanky power builds that are bruiser-esque in design and focus are our strongest choices, which MM technically classifies as, I just like the mightstacking and utility of signets for now.

Try a Soldier SR/BM/S Spectral Well build. That’ll give you a fair bit of durability and plenty of bruising power. I’ve been running one that I really like and unless my team kittens itself for some Grenth forsaken reason, it does really well, including in team fights (plenty of AoE and enough focus with dagger aa that you take down players too)

I see the advantage to using wells (protection) but I prefer signets. Other than that and utility based trait choices the builds we came up with are probably pretty similar.

It’s also a fair bit of damage in a large AoE. In a team fight where there’s more going on, you’re going to be hitting two or three (or more) people for somewhere around 6k damage, which is not fun for light armor classes, and not exactly negligible on heavy armor. And that’s base. If you make full bloodlust stacks, it bumps it to 7k (non-critting, mind.) And at 20 might stacks, the two damage wells will hit fro about 8500 damage over six seconds. To up to five targets. That can turn a team fight pretty well if timed right.

The build I use that I get those numbers from: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vRAQNBIhZakjGapxaaw2G4wxBuQBbzAoFmFxJUF0zIOeWA-TZRBwAbOEA02focZgFnAAAPBAA

I’ll give it a try tomorrow if I have time. My build is basically the same thing with vamp/locust/plague signets, transfusion, blood bond, SoS, life from death, vital persistence, and unyielding blast, so actually its very different.

Since while my build is great for rezzing people with transfusion and whatnot, its downcleave isn’t as good since it doesn’t have wells, although the signet might helps with might stacking faster.

Definitely sounds like you have a cele signet variation, where I have a well bomber variant. Pretty different purposes and playstyles, but either way, good luck if you have the chance to try it out. Certainly is fun when you crash into a team fight and crush the already weakened enemy players

I love how down the bottom of the metabattle build it says TBD for counters XD.

I have been seeing tons of Necros in sPvP lately. Even when there is no Necro daily, 2+ per team. A month ago I saw 1 Necro other than me every 5 round or so, if even that.

What has changed? Absolutely nothing AFAIK. I am running pretty much the same protective wells bunker build I had 6 months ago (the trait change only made it better, but I was doing fine before).

Its funny to see a what was previously thought to be a bottom class turn meta on a whim, lol. Incidently most Necros I meet I can easily kill. You notice a clear difference from people that found the Necro just recently and slightly more seasoned Necros.

Dawdler.8521:

I have been seeing tons of Necros in sPvP lately. Even when there is no Necro daily, 2+ per team. A month ago I saw 1 Necro other than me every 5 round or so, if even that.

What has changed? Absolutely nothing AFAIK. I am running pretty much the same protective wells bunker build I had 6 months ago (the trait change only made it better, but I was doing fine before).

Its funny to see a what was previously thought to be a bottom class turn meta on a whim, lol. Incidently most Necros I meet I can easily kill. You notice a clear difference from people that found the Necro just recently and slightly more seasoned Necros.

that’s probably because people are excited about Reaper.

nearlight.3064:

Sagat.3285:

Azure.8670:

I still think minion mancer is superior to signet but what do I know

You are not the only one, only AI issues are holding MM back but cele signet is kind of overrated there is an even thread in PvP section saying it better than cele ele.

Yeah I am starting to see that cele signets is overrated. Mainly because, while it is amazing in 1v1s, it really isn’t that strong in teamfights since necro is so easy to focus. Due to that I’ve switched to a soldier’s variation of the build that uses blood magic instead of curses, although curses could might still be better since death perception lets you proc the curses proc traits.. hmmmm…

Yeah.. I’ve never really been into minion builds, but I do think that tanky power builds that are bruiser-esque in design and focus are our strongest choices, which MM technically classifies as, I just like the mightstacking and utility of signets for now.

The level of skill the top teams play at is far superior to the level that most people play at.

Individually regardless of how good the player is, there might be heaps of players at a similar skill level or not, but it comes down to how well they play together. They all know their roles, what to do, when to do it, they communicate and they practise and they have been doing it for a long time.

So Nos runs an effective counter build that can win a lot of one on ones and can remove certain threats from team fights, but it doesn’t really translate to the whole wide world the same way.

I could run the same build and perhaps not be as effective but play it the same way he does it then comes down to my teammates and how good they are, can they hold points? and kill the enemy?

Suddenly I find the effectiveness of the build drops, simply because I can do more with other builds. If I run MM I can hold a point against 2 people the entire game and some times win, I can sustain pressure until my teammates arrive or I can solo anyone class in the game.

It also allows me to run far and hold that point up, or hold home or go mid.

Same with wellomancer, I can drop multiple members of the opposite team per team fight. Basically guaranteeing we win the team fights and that’s huge.

So for me I find other builds more useful, now if I was running with a team and we had a good composition and knew what we were doing that might change.

Vydahr.4285:

nearlight.3064:

Vydahr.4285:

nearlight.3064:

Sagat.3285:

Azure.8670:

I still think minion mancer is superior to signet but what do I know

You are not the only one, only AI issues are holding MM back but cele signet is kind of overrated there is an even thread in PvP section saying it better than cele ele.

Yeah I am starting to see that cele signets is overrated. Mainly because, while it is amazing in 1v1s, it really isn’t that strong in teamfights since necro is so easy to focus. Due to that I’ve switched to a soldier’s variation of the build that uses blood magic instead of curses, although curses could might still be better since death perception lets you proc the curses proc traits.. hmmmm…

Yeah.. I’ve never really been into minion builds, but I do think that tanky power builds that are bruiser-esque in design and focus are our strongest choices, which MM technically classifies as, I just like the mightstacking and utility of signets for now.

Try a Soldier SR/BM/S Spectral Well build. That’ll give you a fair bit of durability and plenty of bruising power. I’ve been running one that I really like and unless my team kittens itself for some Grenth forsaken reason, it does really well, including in team fights (plenty of AoE and enough focus with dagger aa that you take down players too)

I see the advantage to using wells (protection) but I prefer signets. Other than that and utility based trait choices the builds we came up with are probably pretty similar.

It’s also a fair bit of damage in a large AoE. In a team fight where there’s more going on, you’re going to be hitting two or three (or more) people for somewhere around 6k damage, which is not fun for light armor classes, and not exactly negligible on heavy armor. And that’s base. If you make full bloodlust stacks, it bumps it to 7k (non-critting, mind.) And at 20 might stacks, the two damage wells will hit fro about 8500 damage over six seconds. To up to five targets. That can turn a team fight pretty well if timed right.

The build I use that I get those numbers from: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vRAQNBIhZakjGapxaaw2G4wxBuQBbzAoFmFxJUF0zIOeWA-TZRBwAbOEA02focZgFnAAAPBAA

I run pretty much the same setup. But I keep switching between curses and sour reaping. I really like the weakness uptime and the condi transfer signet. But I can’t deny that SR really shines too – choices, choices.

Also, I take the cele ammy. If I use soldier’s like you do, won’t I lose a lot of crits and ferocity?

But then, your focus is more bunkery and mine is both bunker + damage….

That’s pretty much the other build Nos runs, the well bomber. Cele signets is its own thing, can’t really mix well-bombing and cele with optimal results. They do work tho, just not as good since it’d be a hybrid.

bhagwad.4281:

Vydahr.4285:

nearlight.3064:

Vydahr.4285:

nearlight.3064:

Sagat.3285:

Azure.8670:

I still think minion mancer is superior to signet but what do I know

You are not the only one, only AI issues are holding MM back but cele signet is kind of overrated there is an even thread in PvP section saying it better than cele ele.

Yeah I am starting to see that cele signets is overrated. Mainly because, while it is amazing in 1v1s, it really isn’t that strong in teamfights since necro is so easy to focus. Due to that I’ve switched to a soldier’s variation of the build that uses blood magic instead of curses, although curses could might still be better since death perception lets you proc the curses proc traits.. hmmmm…

Yeah.. I’ve never really been into minion builds, but I do think that tanky power builds that are bruiser-esque in design and focus are our strongest choices, which MM technically classifies as, I just like the mightstacking and utility of signets for now.

Try a Soldier SR/BM/S Spectral Well build. That’ll give you a fair bit of durability and plenty of bruising power. I’ve been running one that I really like and unless my team kittens itself for some Grenth forsaken reason, it does really well, including in team fights (plenty of AoE and enough focus with dagger aa that you take down players too)

I see the advantage to using wells (protection) but I prefer signets. Other than that and utility based trait choices the builds we came up with are probably pretty similar.

It’s also a fair bit of damage in a large AoE. In a team fight where there’s more going on, you’re going to be hitting two or three (or more) people for somewhere around 6k damage, which is not fun for light armor classes, and not exactly negligible on heavy armor. And that’s base. If you make full bloodlust stacks, it bumps it to 7k (non-critting, mind.) And at 20 might stacks, the two damage wells will hit fro about 8500 damage over six seconds. To up to five targets. That can turn a team fight pretty well if timed right.

The build I use that I get those numbers from: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vRAQNBIhZakjGapxaaw2G4wxBuQBbzAoFmFxJUF0zIOeWA-TZRBwAbOEA02focZgFnAAAPBAA

I run pretty much the same setup. But I keep switching between curses and sour reaping. I really like the weakness uptime and the condi transfer signet. But I can’t deny that SR really shines too – choices, choices.

Also, I take the cele ammy. If I use soldier’s like you do, won’t I lose a lot of crits and ferocity?

But then, your focus is more bunkery and mine is both bunker + damage….

You do lose ferocity flat out, unfortunately, but you keep decent crit in shroud. I can still get fairly decent crits on LB. But, with the sheer amount of might stacking and durability to get full bloodlust stacks (just with the bloodlust your power gets above 2600) you hit fairly hard regardless, plus you can go toe to toe with any class and usually win 1v1s. You also don’t die instantly to Heartseeker spam, and then can turn around and mess up a thief.

Obviously you can still be caught by surprise and bursted down, particularly if that thief has a friend, but that’s with any necro build, really. Or… Well… Anyone. Still, even though it is more bunkery, it has juuust enough mobility to rotate points well and aid in team fights, while adding a hefty amount of extra pressure

It absolutely INFURIATES me that people take Nos’ build as Meta. The reason why he died – constantly – isn’t for his lack of skill, it’s because his build:

1. Isn’t bunker
2. Lacks mobility

He sacrifices absolutely everything for boon strip and a slight damage boost. Heck, even his use of Spectral Armor is negligible if you choose the right traits.

What should be meta is this build: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vRAQNBIhZ6kGRozGsvGw4Gg/GcgLUzi4EWCYbGALANNajnF-TJRGwAAOFAg2fIaZADPBAA

1. Ridiculous mobility with Wurm and Spectral Walk
2. Still has strong life force gain from Spectral Walk
3. Still capable of stripping 4 boons when using Signets
4. Has much higher vitality, base power and toughness, without the need for relying on might stacking
5. Self sustain is much higher due to life stealing from Blood Magic trait line
6. Group support is higher due to no bleed out + Transfusion heal
7. You still gain the 25% speed buff when wielding a dagger, and get dagger cooldowns reduced significantly if played right

All you sacrifice is 20% extra critical hit chance and 4 extra boons removed. Honestly, it’s nonsense how his build is considered Meta.

gavyne.6847:

That build is made to hold points until help comes. Ironically the dd eles did the same jobs, but with less deaths, and they have great mobility to boot. This isn’t a knock on Nos at all, he did all he could given the toolset available to him, and he played well and made some great moves during the final. My problem is with the necro class and how they (devs and some players) think necros are so great at being tanky. When the tournament showed necros were getting destroyed left & right.

Nos got destroyed because he isn’t bunker… His build is damage orientated, with some survivability. There’s a huge difference.

Lewis Burnell.2493:

It absolutely INFURIATES me that people take Nos’ build as Meta. The reason why he died – constantly – isn’t for his lack of skill, it’s because his build:

1. Isn’t bunker
2. Lacks mobility

He sacrifices absolutely everything for boon strip and a slight damage boost. Heck, even his use of Spectral Armor is negligible if you choose the right traits.

What should be meta is this build: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vRAQNBIhZ6kGRozGsvGw4Gg/GcgLUzi4EWCYbGALANNajnF-TJRGwAAOFAg2fIaZADPBAA

1. Ridiculous mobility with Wurm and Spectral Walk
2. Still has strong life force gain from Spectral Walk
3. Still capable of stripping 4 boons when using Signets
4. Has much higher vitality, base power and toughness, without the need for relying on might stacking
5. Self sustain is much higher due to life stealing from Blood Magic trait line
6. Group support is higher due to no bleed out + Transfusion heal
7. You still gain the 25% speed buff when wielding a dagger, and get dagger cooldowns reduced significantly if played right

All you sacrifice is 20% extra critical hit chance and 4 extra boons removed. Honestly, it’s nonsense how his build is considered Meta.

You forgot the high weakness application, some extra boons, some extra boon removal one of which aoe , a bit more might, more condition transfers, more protection, … .

This really doesn’t do much for me.
The only reason that a necro spec is meta is because an extremely good necro player is doing well with his team.

If you look at the overal picture Necro is still the second most shunned class after rangers.

Ele’s are by far top favorite picks often seeing 2 of them per side.
Mesmers and Engineers are seeing more and more play after their buffs (practically present in every match); and are pretty much top picks as well.
Warrior, Thief and Guardian have always been strong.
Necro and Ranger are both still rarely picked. As they don’t bring much that others don’t bring.

Necro’s only saving grace is that we can bunker decently with the right spec. And that we counter some of the meta builds that other professions roll with.

I’m talking mostly from a competitive PoV here. You rarely see necromancers in the tourrnaments. And the tournaments are (IMO) pretty much top skilled people.
That you can make necromancer work in unranked is pretty great; that you’re having a blast is great as well. But I doubt you could call necromancers very “meta” at the moment (or at any moment, other than our 10 minutes of fame with dhuumfire).

Lewis Burnell.2493:

It absolutely INFURIATES me that people take Nos’ build as Meta. The reason why he died – constantly – isn’t for his lack of skill, it’s because his build:

1. Isn’t bunker
2. Lacks mobility

He sacrifices absolutely everything for boon strip and a slight damage boost. Heck, even his use of Spectral Armor is negligible if you choose the right traits.

What should be meta is this build: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vRAQNBIhZ6kGRozGsvGw4Gg/GcgLUzi4EWCYbGALANNajnF-TJRGwAAOFAg2fIaZADPBAA

1. Ridiculous mobility with Wurm and Spectral Walk
2. Still has strong life force gain from Spectral Walk
3. Still capable of stripping 4 boons when using Signets
4. Has much higher vitality, base power and toughness, without the need for relying on might stacking
5. Self sustain is much higher due to life stealing from Blood Magic trait line
6. Group support is higher due to no bleed out + Transfusion heal
7. You still gain the 25% speed buff when wielding a dagger, and get dagger cooldowns reduced significantly if played right

All you sacrifice is 20% extra critical hit chance and 4 extra boons removed. Honestly, it’s nonsense how his build is considered Meta.

gavyne.6847:

That build is made to hold points until help comes. Ironically the dd eles did the same jobs, but with less deaths, and they have great mobility to boot. This isn’t a knock on Nos at all, he did all he could given the toolset available to him, and he played well and made some great moves during the final. My problem is with the necro class and how they (devs and some players) think necros are so great at being tanky. When the tournament showed necros were getting destroyed left & right.

Nos got destroyed because he isn’t bunker… His build is damage orientated, with some survivability. There’s a huge difference.

Well maybe when you win the WTS, then maybe you’ll get your chance to decide whats meta and whats not. You can talk all you want, but without tournament results, you have no way to assert that your argument is credible.

Although I will say that the build you run is similar to the one I run right now, except I don’t do questionable things like swalk and wurm on a tank build. That type of build is more suited for teamfights while Nos’s build is more focused on 1v1s and +1ing smaller fights, like in the tourney today where Nos would break off to go 1v1 eles. Also since I’ve watched Nos stream a lot, he actually does run a soldier’s signet build with blood magic over curses, and he acknowledges it to be a great build, it just serves a different role that what is needed for his team most of the time.

@Nyth, I disagree with your reasoning. I view warrior, engi, and necromancer to be roughly equivalent in viablity right now, and light years ahead of ranger. The only reason that warrior/engi seems more common is because more people played them prepatch when they had faceroll cele builds. Engi basically died out in pvp on NA for a while after the realization that cele engi was nerfed into the ground, with chaith’s power builds being the exception. And honestly with zerker warrior, its literally a one trick pony that depends on rampage (easily countered by mesmer, necro, or engi) to do anything of real value. Also about mesmer, right now they’re only strong because they can trait PU and use portal, without either one of those, they’re nothing.

nearlight.3064:

Lewis Burnell.2493:

It absolutely INFURIATES me that people take Nos’ build as Meta. The reason why he died – constantly – isn’t for his lack of skill, it’s because his build:

1. Isn’t bunker
2. Lacks mobility

He sacrifices absolutely everything for boon strip and a slight damage boost. Heck, even his use of Spectral Armor is negligible if you choose the right traits.

What should be meta is this build: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vRAQNBIhZ6kGRozGsvGw4Gg/GcgLUzi4EWCYbGALANNajnF-TJRGwAAOFAg2fIaZADPBAA

1. Ridiculous mobility with Wurm and Spectral Walk
2. Still has strong life force gain from Spectral Walk
3. Still capable of stripping 4 boons when using Signets
4. Has much higher vitality, base power and toughness, without the need for relying on might stacking
5. Self sustain is much higher due to life stealing from Blood Magic trait line
6. Group support is higher due to no bleed out + Transfusion heal
7. You still gain the 25% speed buff when wielding a dagger, and get dagger cooldowns reduced significantly if played right

All you sacrifice is 20% extra critical hit chance and 4 extra boons removed. Honestly, it’s nonsense how his build is considered Meta.

gavyne.6847:

That build is made to hold points until help comes. Ironically the dd eles did the same jobs, but with less deaths, and they have great mobility to boot. This isn’t a knock on Nos at all, he did all he could given the toolset available to him, and he played well and made some great moves during the final. My problem is with the necro class and how they (devs and some players) think necros are so great at being tanky. When the tournament showed necros were getting destroyed left & right.

Nos got destroyed because he isn’t bunker… His build is damage orientated, with some survivability. There’s a huge difference.

Well maybe when you win the WTS, then maybe you’ll get your chance to decide whats meta and whats not. You can talk all you want, but without tournament results, you have no way to assert that your argument is credible.

Although I will say that the build you run is similar to the one I run right now, except I don’t do questionable things like swalk and wurm on a tank build. That type of build is more suited for teamfights while Nos’s build is more focused on 1v1s and +1ing smaller fights, like in the tourney today where Nos would break off to go 1v1 eles. Also since I’ve watched Nos stream a lot, he actually does run a soldier’s signet build with blood magic over curses, and he acknowledges it to be a great build, it just serves a different role that what is needed for his team most of the time.

@Nyth, I disagree with your reasoning. I view warrior, engi, and necromancer to be roughly equivalent in viablity right now, and light years ahead of ranger. The only reason that warrior/engi seems more common is because more people played them prepatch when they had faceroll cele builds. Engi basically died out in pvp on NA for a while after the realization that cele engi was nerfed into the ground, with chaith’s power builds being the exception. And honestly with zerker warrior, its literally a one trick pony that depends on rampage (easily countered by mesmer, necro, or engi) to do anything of real value. Also about mesmer, right now they’re only strong because they can trait PU and use portal, without either one of those, they’re nothing.

So because I haven’t won WTS with my Necromancer, I have no right to logically argue as to why his build is poor? On that basis, some of the worlds best sports coaches shouldn’t be teaching because they haven’t won the competition they’re training their athletes for. What nonsense.

I argued above why Nos’ build was poor and I stand by it. The Abjured won the WTS not because of Nos but because of their own ability and the fact they dragged Nos and his build through it. He died almost twice as much as anyone else and as a result, regularly forced Abjured to waste cooldowns getting him up, or forcing them to fight 4v5.

As I previously stated, if he’d use Spectral Walk and Wurm, at the very least he’d be able to escape before needlessly dying. Being “tanky” doesn’t mean sitting there until you’re dead. Nos of all people should know the value of mobility in Guild Wars 2, with or without a “tanky” build and lets be honest, if he wanted to go tanky he’d have taken Blood Magic and Soldier’s like I suggested.

Tim.6450:

Lewis Burnell.2493:

It absolutely INFURIATES me that people take Nos’ build as Meta. The reason why he died – constantly – isn’t for his lack of skill, it’s because his build:

1. Isn’t bunker
2. Lacks mobility

He sacrifices absolutely everything for boon strip and a slight damage boost. Heck, even his use of Spectral Armor is negligible if you choose the right traits.

What should be meta is this build: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vRAQNBIhZ6kGRozGsvGw4Gg/GcgLUzi4EWCYbGALANNajnF-TJRGwAAOFAg2fIaZADPBAA

1. Ridiculous mobility with Wurm and Spectral Walk
2. Still has strong life force gain from Spectral Walk
3. Still capable of stripping 4 boons when using Signets
4. Has much higher vitality, base power and toughness, without the need for relying on might stacking
5. Self sustain is much higher due to life stealing from Blood Magic trait line
6. Group support is higher due to no bleed out + Transfusion heal
7. You still gain the 25% speed buff when wielding a dagger, and get dagger cooldowns reduced significantly if played right

All you sacrifice is 20% extra critical hit chance and 4 extra boons removed. Honestly, it’s nonsense how his build is considered Meta.

You forgot the high weakness application, some extra boons, some extra boon removal one of which aoe , a bit more might, more condition transfers, more protection, … .

1. You don’t need the weakness if you’re self sustaining through blood magic.
2. I already mentioned the loss of Fury.
3. I already mentioned the loss of Boon Removal.
4. Plague Sending is situational at best and entirely unnecessary if you manage your DS/transfers.
5. I already mentioned the loss of protection. As stated, you don’t need it when you can comfortably avoid damage through the Wurm and Spectral Walk but also when your survivability is so much higher thanks to Blood Magic and Soldier’s Amulet.

Counter to meta is meta. There isn’t many viable counters out there but Cele signet counters two things well 1) boons & 2)condis and that is why I think it is more suited to gameplay at this point than any other Necro build. It also matters hugely who plays. Frae was playing cele signet for oRNG yesterday at Go4GW2 July finals against TCG and he looked he didn’t know what to do with the build.

Cele signet is good 1v1 and +1 but needs good team around it to make up the flaws. Much like Rampage warrior and many other builds. That is why it may not be the best build in soloq but in tPvP with good team and skilled player playing the cele sig it’s very viable.

samulihei.1952:

Counter to meta is meta. There isn’t many viable counters out there but Cele signet counters two things well 1) boons & 2)condis and that is why I think it is more suited to gameplay at this point than any other Necro build. It also matters hugely who plays. Frae was playing cele signet for oRNG yesterday at Go4GW2 July finals against TCG and he looked he didn’t know what to do with the build.

Cele signet is good 1v1 and +1 but needs good team around it to make up the flaws. Much like Rampage warrior and many other builds. That is why it may not be the best build in soloq but in tPvP with good team and skilled player playing the cele sig it’s very viable.

To be frank. Even when it counters some builds to a degree, in tournaments necro’s still look weak.
The main reason to bring a necro seems to be that they can hold out long enough until reinforcements arrive, but this hinges heavily on teamwork; while at the same time (unlike say a full bunker guardian) being offensive enough to aid in retaking nodes.
And thirdly they counter some of the more popular and upcoming builds to a certain degree (Burn Guardian / Cele Ele / Bleed Engineer / etc)

If you focus on the necro though in the past few tournaments (Go4 / WTS), you see necro’s being in the downed state half the time. And at no point did a necro ever give me the feeling that they made a real difference for their team. Not to mention that Frae very quickly went back to his guardian on the second map Orng played.
Full respect to Nos, Frae and the others though.

Maybe I’m missing the real point why necro is so important though. But unlike mesmers, eles, thieves, guardians, engineers and warriors who are making the big plays; I don’t really see the big impact of a necromancer other than the reason I stated.
Rangers have it worse though I guess. But at least they have a bit more viability in competetive PvE.

The reason for this is cele signet necro is a counter to D/D ele. Strips welfare boons and counters their rotation.

Against other professions? Pretty average.

Nyth.3492:

The main reason to bring a necro seems to be that they can hold out long enough until reinforcements arrive, but this hinges heavily on teamwork; while at the same time (unlike say a full bunker guardian) being offensive enough to aid in retaking nodes.
And thirdly they counter some of the more popular and upcoming builds to a certain degree (Burn Guardian / Cele Ele / Bleed Engineer / etc)

That’s basically all you need in a well rounded team. If you can hold 1 node on your own 1v1 and need the enemy to sacrifice at least 2 players to take you out + help in team fights + win 100% against a few meta builds that’s more than many many many builds out there.

Lewis Burnell.2493:

So because I haven’t won WTS with my Necromancer, I have no right to logically argue as to why his build is poor? On that basis, some of the worlds best sports coaches shouldn’t be teaching because they haven’t won the competition they’re training their athletes for. What nonsense.

I argued above why Nos’ build was poor and I stand by it. The Abjured won the WTS not because of Nos but because of their own ability and the fact they dragged Nos and his build through it. He died almost twice as much as anyone else and as a result, regularly forced Abjured to waste cooldowns getting him up, or forcing them to fight 4v5.

As I previously stated, if he’d use Spectral Walk and Wurm, at the very least he’d be able to escape before needlessly dying. Being “tanky” doesn’t mean sitting there until you’re dead. Nos of all people should know the value of mobility in Guild Wars 2, with or without a “tanky” build and lets be honest, if he wanted to go tanky he’d have taken Blood Magic and Soldier’s like I suggested.

You can argue all you want, and your build is probably actually really good, (I’d probably only take wurm, not walk) but the definition of meta is complicated in that it attempts to describe both what is the most effective, and what is the most common and widely played at competitve levels. So while I like your build, and it looks like it could be very effective, until tons of other people play it, you won’t be able to call it meta. Personally I beleive that soldiers necro won’t be widely run until either HoT comes out (since it just works better with reaper than cele does due to 3 traitline syndrome), or until fire D/D ele and/or burning/burn application as a whole gets nerfed, since countering those condi bursts and D/D eles 1v1 is the primary niche of cele signet necro. If that niche isn’t needed, necro will probably adapt to tank builds, unless thieves/mesmer gets more nerfed, in which case zerker well or possibly condi builds would become used.

I honestly suggest trying your build out in low tier tourneys like pugquest or AG, and seeing how it really actually performs, and I’d be interested in hearing your opinion on it.

What do you think of Nemesis’s latest build?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Es1-hqsKcdg

One person commented that he stole half the build from Celestial Sigil but the concept was started pre patch is seems to be a much different type of build. It’s another counter type build and I have a feeling with the success of CS builds that more counter necro builds are going become the standard. We seem to have the tools to counter whatever top build becomes the standard though we probably won’t become the top build any time soon if ever.

Akrasia.5469:

What do you think of Nemesis’s latest build?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Es1-hqsKcdg

One person commented that he stole half the build from Celestial Sigil but the concept was started pre patch is seems to be a much different type of build. It’s another counter type build and I have a feeling with the success of CS builds that more counter necro builds are going become the standard. We seem to have the tools to counter whatever top build becomes the standard though we probably won’t become the top build any time soon if ever.

That trait spread reminds me of the kittenty crusader build I made a while ago that wasn’t that good (may try a different crus build though). I don’t think its that great though because I think death magic sucks. Unholy santuary is a good trait though, but I don’t see the point of shrouded removal when you can just transfer condis back. To be honest he should have just picked a less useless amulet. Also I think he should have used curses since his build is very corruption heavy skill wise.