Guild Wars 2

Anyone else think Necromancer needs a viable alternative to the scepter for condition application?

yes, yes it does. I have no idea why they thought not adding a mainhand was a good idea.. Hell.. warriors got two new weapons.

Why are these threads popping up? What is the need for another main hand condi weapon? What would it do that Scepter does not?

Obtena.7952:

Why are these threads popping up? What is the need for another main hand condi weapon? What would it do that Scepter does not?

New condition mainhand could be useful for pve rotations, since Scourge has no greatsword chill spinning.

But that’s basically it. And Scourge could end up using some other weapon in rotation besides Scepter+Torch/Scepter+Dagger.

So … Scepter is NOT useful for PVE rotations? I mean, there are lots of things this imaginary condi weapon COULD be, I’m asking what is driving the need or even the desire for it. most importantly, what would make anyone want to use it considering how good the scepter is at condi now.

Obtena.7952:

So … Scepter is NOT useful for PVE rotations? I mean, there are lots of things this imaginary condi weapon COULD be, I’m asking what is driving the need or even the desire for it. most importantly, what would make anyone want to use it considering how good the scepter is at condi now.

Scepter it’s useful as long you can cast shade’s skill on CD, then it lose dps compared to fast life force building weapons.

I don’t see what that has to do with a new condi weapon … why do I care if it’s a DPS loss compared to fast life force building weapons when the current fast life force building weapons are not condi weapons in the first place? Is the proposal to have a condi mainhand that builds fast life force?

Obtena.7952:

So … Scepter is NOT useful for PVE rotations? I mean, there are lots of things this imaginary condi weapon COULD be, I’m asking what is driving the need or even the desire for it. most importantly, what would make anyone want to use it considering how good the scepter is at condi now.

Please don’t be obtuse.

Melee weapons build lifeforce faster. They typically build lifeforce on every strike including a big gain on the final hit.

Scepter build lifeforce VERY slowly in comparison to the dagger and greatsword.

Tiresias.6473:

Obtena.7952:

So … Scepter is NOT useful for PVE rotations? I mean, there are lots of things this imaginary condi weapon COULD be, I’m asking what is driving the need or even the desire for it. most importantly, what would make anyone want to use it considering how good the scepter is at condi now.

Please don’t be obtuse.

Melee weapons build lifeforce faster. They typically build lifeforce on every strike including a big gain on the final hit.

Scepter build lifeforce VERY slowly in comparison to the dagger and greatsword.

It’s not being obtuse … if I’m playing condi, then I don’t care if power weapons do more DPS OR build more life force … otherwise I would choose those weapons to play with Scourge and take advantage of shades more.

I think the obtuse thing here is thinking there shouldn’t be meaningful choices to make when making a build. I mean …. don’t tell me you don’t understand how unbelievably good a condition weapon with high life force regen would be with the Scourge spec.

Obtena.7952:

Tiresias.6473:

Obtena.7952:

So … Scepter is NOT useful for PVE rotations? I mean, there are lots of things this imaginary condi weapon COULD be, I’m asking what is driving the need or even the desire for it. most importantly, what would make anyone want to use it considering how good the scepter is at condi now.

Please don’t be obtuse.

Melee weapons build lifeforce faster. They typically build lifeforce on every strike including a big gain on the final hit.

Scepter build lifeforce VERY slowly in comparison to the dagger and greatsword.

It’s not being obtuse … if I’m playing condi, then I don’t care if power weapons do more DPS OR build more life force … otherwise I would choose those weapons to play with Scourge and take advantage of shades more.

I think the obtuse thing here is thinking there shouldn’t be meaningful choices to make when making a build. I mean …. don’t tell me you don’t understand how unbelievably good a condition weapon with high life force regen would be with the Scourge spec.

I’m not sure about “unbelievable”. It would probably just make it “decent”.

Do you have any idea how dangerous it is to step into melee range as a Scourge? You don’t have Shroud to defend yourself with, and the barriers melt quickly even if they aren’t touched.

So are you telling me that because it’s dangerous for a Scourge to be in melee range, you need a high condi and burst shade build with lots of life force regen? Seems to me that doesn’t make much sense. If you are shattered at close range, the solution isn’t more life force regen on a condi weapon ….

Obtena.7952:

I don’t see what that has to do with a new condi weapon … why do I care if it’s a DPS loss compared to fast life force building weapons when the current fast life force building weapons are not condi weapons in the first place? Is the proposal to have a condi mainhand that builds fast life force?

Well, in PvE all you want is to kill faster things dealing more dps and if your rotation have high life force cost, that you can’t sustain for too ling, you have to build up life force. Recently on the from what many players asked for scepter’s life force generation on AA and/or to make dagger (great at life force generation) more condi friendly.

*whispers condi dagger mainhand

Yes, that’s why having to choose what you want to do as opposed to Anet handing you the be all end all weapon for Scourge is a meaningful choice. If you want a good Scourge condi build, you take Scepter … if you want to spam shades, you don’t.

Scepter on Scourge is already quite good … so is dagger. You don’t see it’s unreasonable asking for the advantages of both in one weapon, considering you can swap between the two to get the advantages you are looking for already? I do. I hope Anet does too. I mean, think about why you have a weapon swap in the first place … for this very reason.

Obtena.7952:

Yes, that’s why having to choose what you want to do as opposed to Anet handing you the be all end all weapon for Scourge is a meaningful choice. If you want a good Scourge condi build, you take Scepter … if you want to spam shades, you don’t.

Scepter on Scourge is already quite good … so is dagger. You don’t see it’s unreasonable asking for the advantages of both in one weapon, considering you can swap between the two to get the advantages you are looking for already? I do. I hope Anet does too.

Thieves dagger is their best condi weapon and it deals a considerable power damage, while also giving energy (think about it like our life force to avoid damage) you find wrong that a core weapon could do that?

Of course you can chose one or another weapon and in PvP you can have better ways to increase your life force but if you can’t do it in PvE while doing decent dps you’ll have a veryveryvery nice build that can’t do the dps role.

What I find wrong is that you are making irrelevant comparisons; thief dagger skills are only relevant to thieves and has no bearing on what necro skills are. There are many reasons Anet provided thieves with this and not necros … and we don’t know them. Do not presume that there is precedent set here.

That still doesn’t change what I’ve said … Anet has implemented weapon swapping to allow us access to different weapon advantages on the same build. Not being able to do something because of the limits of gear is not some exceptional problem on necros that needs to be addressed .. it’s the game design intention and it’s applicable to all classes. Ignoring that will not make a high life force, condi weapon any more reasonable of a request.

Obtena.7952:

What I find wrong is that you are making irrelevant comparisons; thief dagger skills are only relevant to thieves and has no bearing on what necro skills are.

That still doesn’t change what I’ve said … Anet has implemented weapon swapping to allow us access to different weapon advantages on the same build. Not being able to do something because of the limits of gear is not some exceptional problem on necros that needs to be addressed .. it’s the game design intention and it’s applicable to all classes. Ignoring that will not make a high life force, condi weapon any more reasonable of a request.

i got 2 things to say:

1:I don’t know why but i keep imagining you speaking in homers voice in the same manner.

2:If the other guy wants life force so bad why doesn’t he just equip a axe as a secondary weapon and a dagger in his offhand? Sure you lose staff, but at least you got a solid way to farm life.Also:Combined with the spectral armor it should help build up life force much faster.I didn’t have that much problem with life force in spvp, and i was spamming it a lot and i had loads of life force.

Axl.8924:

Obtena.7952:

What I find wrong is that you are making irrelevant comparisons; thief dagger skills are only relevant to thieves and has no bearing on what necro skills are.

That still doesn’t change what I’ve said … Anet has implemented weapon swapping to allow us access to different weapon advantages on the same build. Not being able to do something because of the limits of gear is not some exceptional problem on necros that needs to be addressed .. it’s the game design intention and it’s applicable to all classes. Ignoring that will not make a high life force, condi weapon any more reasonable of a request.

i got 2 things to say:

1:I don’t know why but i keep imagining you speaking in homers voice in the same manner.

2:If the other guy wants life force so bad why doesn’t he just equip a axe as a secondary weapon and a dagger in his offhand? Sure you lose staff, but at least you got a solid way to farm life.Also:Combined with the spectral armor it should help build up life force much faster.I didn’t have that much problem with life force in spvp, and i was spamming it a lot and i had loads of life force.

Exactly … people are not looking for solutions to their build deficiencies … that ALREADY exist in the game. They simply want better (and less thoughtful) things handed to them.

Obtena.7952:

Exactly … people are not looking for solutions to their build deficiencies … that ALREADY exist in the game. They simply want better (and less thoughtful) things handed to them.

To me peoples are only seeing Scourge in a PvP pov and don’t want to see the flaws of Scourge when it comes to PvE life force generation and sustained damage.

Obtena.7952:

What I find wrong is that you are making irrelevant comparisons; thief dagger skills are only relevant to thieves and has no bearing on what necro skills are. There are many reasons Anet provided thieves with this and not necros … and we don’t know them. Do not presume that there is precedent set here.

That still doesn’t change what I’ve said … Anet has implemented weapon swapping to allow us access to different weapon advantages on the same build. Not being able to do something because of the limits of gear is not some exceptional problem on necros that needs to be addressed .. it’s the game design intention and it’s applicable to all classes. Ignoring that will not make a high life force, condi weapon any more reasonable of a request.

I’m not sure what your stake in this fight is, but your approach is short-sighted. I’m not even sure how much you play a Necro, given your comments.

Here, I’ll break it down for you:

Necro melee weapons have high life force generation, which makes them an excellent way to power Shroud abilities (be that Life Shroud, Reaper Shroud, or Sand Shroud). However, they are entirely power-based at the moment, and even then if you aren’t a Reaper you have ONE choice of melee weapon (the dagger). There is a surprising dearth of options.

Necro ranged weapons are a much more balanced affair, with scepter focused on conditions, axe focused on power, and staff focused on hybrid utility (the overall damage on staff is very low). However, the life force generation of all of these weapons is poor overall, with Staff being the highest assuming there are groups of enemies to fire into.

So, given that we have Reaper for power builds — and it really doesn’t make sense to run a power build that doesn’t include Reaper and use a greatsword — having a melee condition damage weapon that ideally is baseline would provide Necromancers with more options and flexibility — two things that Necros lack in general at the moment.

In a lot of ways the dagger would make the most sense as it’s a condition weapon on many other classes, but a mace would be an interesting option as well.

There’s nothing unreasonable about the request. There is something suspicious about your staunch opposition of the notion, though.

Vitali.5039:

Obtena.7952:

Exactly … people are not looking for solutions to their build deficiencies … that ALREADY exist in the game. They simply want better (and less thoughtful) things handed to them.

To me peoples are only seeing Scourge in a PvP pov and don’t want to see the flaws of Scourge when it comes to PvE life force generation and sustained damage.

You don’t need to see those flaws … you can swap between two weapons that give you exactly the two things you desire, as the game allows and intends. Besides, if any group of people can appreciate deficiencies in a build, it’s PVPers; they prey on that. The good PVPer’s know and take advantage of knowing their opponents weaknesses. if your whole stance is that you shouldn’t have to deal with and adjust your play because of the deficiencies of your class in PVP, then you really don’t have a leg to stand on in the first place.

Scourge is ridiculously strong in melee in pvp.

Ramoth.9064:

Scourge is ridiculously strong in melee in pvp.

Only because people don’t know that you can’t stand next to one while Sand Shroud is up due to the rapid condition stacking and barrier.

If you bait that out then back away (it’s not like Scourge has a lot of chase potential) then you have plenty of time to jump back in and burst them down.

Once people figure out how to deal with a Scourge you won’t find them to be quite as strong, I think.

Because I’d like to do something other than scepter 24/7 ?

Tiresias.6473:

Once people figure out how to deal with a Scourge you won’t find them to be quite as strong, I think.

Scourge will still be bonkers strong when paired with a support tempest, but beyond that I don’t see it being a solo-queue thing for long.

Crinn.7864:

Tiresias.6473:

Once people figure out how to deal with a Scourge you won’t find them to be quite as strong, I think.

Scourge will still be bonkers strong when paired with a support tempest, but beyond that I don’t see it being a solo-queue thing for long.

That’s fair. There are a lot of classes that have synergies with other classes and make good 2-man teams or small squads.

Still, once Sand Shroud is down there is no reason to not tunnel vision the Scourge. Normally you would leave the Necro until last if they were in a group with targets that don’t have two lifebars, but with no Shroud to protect them and the relatively weak state of barriers the Scourge is a good first target to go for.

I can’t help but think that brawler Reaper is still the better PvP build, at least for small groups.

Tiresias.6473:

Obtena.7952:

So … Scepter is NOT useful for PVE rotations? I mean, there are lots of things this imaginary condi weapon COULD be, I’m asking what is driving the need or even the desire for it. most importantly, what would make anyone want to use it considering how good the scepter is at condi now.

Please don’t be obtuse.

Melee weapons build lifeforce faster. They typically build lifeforce on every strike including a big gain on the final hit.

Scepter build lifeforce VERY slowly in comparison to the dagger and greatsword.

I do believe that’s intentional considering if you’re in melee, you’re taking hits, and if you’re in melee dealing damage with a dagger or GS it means you’re not in shroud which means you’re taking actual damage.

Instead, the scepter, being a ranged weapon, can kite and play a bit more safely on the basis it is ranged, while applying permanent cripple to help aid in this. It makes little sense to give ranged builds more sustain than melee ones.

Strictly speaking, the LF gain is basically the same if not superior to Axe, which is considered a a fantastic weapon because it does what it’s supposed to: utility and ranged burst LF generation.

DeceiverX.8361:

Tiresias.6473:

Obtena.7952:

So … Scepter is NOT useful for PVE rotations? I mean, there are lots of things this imaginary condi weapon COULD be, I’m asking what is driving the need or even the desire for it. most importantly, what would make anyone want to use it considering how good the scepter is at condi now.

Please don’t be obtuse.

Melee weapons build lifeforce faster. They typically build lifeforce on every strike including a big gain on the final hit.

Scepter build lifeforce VERY slowly in comparison to the dagger and greatsword.

I do believe that’s intentional considering if you’re in melee, you’re taking hits, and if you’re in melee dealing damage with a dagger or GS it means you’re not in shroud which means you’re taking actual damage.

Instead, the scepter, being a ranged weapon, can kite and play a bit more safely on the basis it is ranged, while applying permanent cripple to help aid in this. It makes little sense to give ranged builds more sustain than melee ones.

Strictly speaking, the LF gain is basically the same if not superior to Axe, which is considered a a fantastic weapon because it does what it’s supposed to: utility and ranged burst LF generation.

Well… yes. That’s true. All of that is spot-on.

But the point of the thread is that Necros would like a melee condition-based weapon for a higher risk, higher reward playstyle.

Of course you could switch to Dagger just for life force generation, but the request is for something a little more appropriate.

Scourge needs Dagger for Life Force generation already. It’s going to do more damage with Scepter/Dagger and Dagger/Torch.

Dagger being used already, it’d make sense to add a Condition like Torment or Bleeding to it, hell even Poison.

It wouldn’t nerf Power in any way since Grieving stats are in PoF which are Berserker stats with Condition Damage.

I don’t get why people are arguing.

Crinn.7864:

Tiresias.6473:

Once people figure out how to deal with a Scourge you won’t find them to be quite as strong, I think.

Scourge will still be bonkers strong when paired with a support tempest, but beyond that I don’t see it being a solo-queue thing for long.

You probably noticed that, but I thought it could also be really good with renegade. Each time a warband member disapear, it gives life force to necros. Could be a nice synergy too !

Kyumy.5370:

Crinn.7864:

Tiresias.6473:

Once people figure out how to deal with a Scourge you won’t find them to be quite as strong, I think.

Scourge will still be bonkers strong when paired with a support tempest, but beyond that I don’t see it being a solo-queue thing for long.

You probably noticed that, but I thought it could also be really good with renegade. Each time a warband member disapear, it gives life force to necros. Could be a nice synergy too !

I hadn’t noticed that! It may be a general lack of Renegades running around in WvW right now. Seriously, they are practically unicorns.

It may be a bug. I know some widgets “die” when they unsummon, and they aren’t intended to give life force when they do (like Necro minions dying… even though they used to). But if it works for now I’ll take it!

I still feel LUDICROUSLY vulnerable in PvP. The lack of mobility may have something to do with it. It might get better if they fix the teleport (they may have already; I haven’t done any WvW in hours).

Vitali.5039:

Obtena.7952:

Exactly … people are not looking for solutions to their build deficiencies … that ALREADY exist in the game. They simply want better (and less thoughtful) things handed to them.

To me peoples are only seeing Scourge in a PvP pov and don’t want to see the flaws of Scourge when it comes to PvE life force generation and sustained damage.

Obtena.7952:

You don’t need to see those flaws … you can swap between two weapons that give you exactly the two things you desire, as the game allows and intends.

lol, kappa. If not for our good dps I really hope we’ll be as good as the other classes for our “PvE group support”

Besides, if any group of people can appreciate deficiencies in a build, it’s PVPers; they prey on that.

So.. PvP only point of view?

The good PVPer’s know and take advantage of knowing their opponents weaknesses. if your whole stance is that you shouldn’t have to deal with and adjust your play because of the deficiencies of your class in PVP, then you really don’t have a leg to stand on in the first place.

As a good PvPer in fact my reaper has rekt every single Scourge it come across in those beta weekends, major culprit their lacking stability and Reaper’s Shruod useful mobility skill.

As every necromancer know, their dagger’s life force comes from auto attack, wich is in melee range and melee makes them more vulnerable to crowd controls, making it unable to fight properly (have i already mentioned the Scourge’s low stability access?) and leading them to certain death. The last thing a good Scourge PvPer will do it’s to go into melee range to build up life force when you can do it from range.
Nourishing Rot it’s here for this but, you know, the trait will be picked for PvP and PvP only puprose as it is in the same tier of Fell Beacon

Scourge’s biggest PvP issue comes from barrier’s degeneration, not from life force building weapons. Degen and maybe the low condition application tied to their punishment skills.

The problem isn’t numbers, numbers can be adjusted.

The problem is the rotations are sluggish and boring.
You can place a F1 every once in a while, and you can use your long cooldown dps-loss skills every once in a while. But, most of the time you are just sitting there autoattacking.

If you had a melee condition weapon with higher damage, or a ranged condition weapon that could generate lifeforce*** then things would at least be interesting.

• You actually do have a ranged weapon that can generate lifeforce in the staff, but the game has been power creeped so much that it’s an obsolete weapon with no real purpose anymore. Maybe Staff (and especially focus and offhand dagger) should be fixed so they are usable.

Kam.4092:

Scourge needs Dagger for Life Force generation already. It’s going to do more damage with Scepter/Dagger and Dagger/Torch.

Dagger being used already, it’d make sense to add a Condition like Torment or Bleeding to it, hell even Poison.

It wouldn’t nerf Power in any way since Grieving stats are in PoF which are Berserker stats with Condition Damage.

I don’t get why people are arguing.

The argument is simple … some people want the game to maintain meaningful choices in gearing up … you know, for challenging play? I get that people want to dumb things down here so they get an easy time handed to them by Anet … because swapping weapons is apparently to hard. At some point I can just let my Drinking Bird desk toy play the game for me. Awesome ><

Besides, other than the desire to make Scourge OP as all hell with this new desired weapon, why didn’t these calls for such a weapon not exist PRIOR to this? Was life force regen NOT a desirable thing to have on condi builds for the last 5 years? Let’s not pretend that the emergence of a new espec warrants the release of such a weapon when the existence of the class itself for the last 5 years did not … that’s utter nonsense. This is simply a case of people wanting an easy path.

Obtena.7952:

Besides, other than the desire to make Scourge OP as all hell with this new desired weapon, why didn’t these calls for such a weapon not exist PRIOR to this? Was life force regen NOT a desirable thing to have on condi builds for the last 5 years? Let’s not pretend that the emergence of a new espec warrants the release of such a weapon when the existence of the class itself for the last 5 years did not … that’s utter nonsense. This is simply a case of people wanting an easy path.

These demands for dagger to be made condi melee (or even axe before it was buffed) have existed for a long time. I myself have made more than one request for it in the past.

Obtena.7952:

Kam.4092:

Scourge needs Dagger for Life Force generation already. It’s going to do more damage with Scepter/Dagger and Dagger/Torch.

Dagger being used already, it’d make sense to add a Condition like Torment or Bleeding to it, hell even Poison.

It wouldn’t nerf Power in any way since Grieving stats are in PoF which are Berserker stats with Condition Damage.

I don’t get why people are arguing.

The argument is simple … some people want the game to maintain meaningful choices in gearing up … you know, for challenging play? I get that people want to dumb things down here so they get an easy time handed to them by Anet … because swapping weapons is apparently to hard. At some point I can just let my Drinking Bird desk toy play the game for me. Awesome ><

Seems too hard for some peoples to understand that even the actual best possible PvE scourge rotation will deal less damage than ~80% (77,77% to be precise) of the other professions while bringing very small support, taking into account that might stacking can be filled by a amore more useful class.

If for you it’s ok to be in a low dps tier even without the excuse of innate tankiness given by shroud seems like you don’t care about competitime PvE.

Hint: dagger it’s already needed in the rotation and this don’t mean that its dps is good but only that without life force generation our dps will only be worse.

Nobody have said that in PvE classes don’t have to swap weapons, even if for someone should be a news looking how many times are writing it everywhere.

I wish a good experience to all the new necromancers and feathered friends that are wandering on the forum.

How much damage this deals is not relevant. The reason for espec is not power creep. Since Anet isn’t making Scourge because of competitve PVE, then that argument is irrelevant as well.

Obtena.7952:

How much damage this deals is not relevant. The reason for espec is not power creep.

As I imagined.

Obtena.7952:

How much damage this deals is not relevant. The reason for espec is not power creep. Since Anet isn’t making Scourge because of competitve PVE, then that argument is irrelevant as well.

How is making the least used necro weapon into a viable weapon power creep?

It’s not … giving everything that people want to spam high condition damage and shades on one weapon is.

Yeah I mainly use the Staff as a weapon thanks to deathly chill and shivers of dread from the Reaper elite. Now I hear deathly chill will get a nerf come Path of Fire release and I don’t want to be forced to play the new elite spec and use a Scepter because I never liked that weapon.

Crinn.7864:

Tiresias.6473:

Once people figure out how to deal with a Scourge you won’t find them to be quite as strong, I think.

Scourge will still be bonkers strong when paired with a support tempest, but beyond that I don’t see it being a solo-queue thing for long.

^^This, was playing WvW on Sat night (SBI/FA/YB) and there is was duo which was just that. There sustain was unreal/power level was crazy. After a few run in, I usually said to call off if we didnt have 5+ and they became know as the cancer twins.

Then they added a Dead Eye and that pushed it to Super Saiyan level. As the Ele/Nec kept you busy and the Dead Eye sat at range and just dropped people.

There is no need for another condi weapon, with the new stat any weapon will work. I preferred using D/T this week end and it was epic!

ZyniX.3589:

Yeah I mainly use the Staff as a weapon thanks to deathly chill and shivers of dread from the Reaper elite. Now I hear deathly chill will get a nerf come Path of Fire release and I don’t want to be forced to play the new elite spec and use a Scepter because I never liked that weapon.

If you don’t like the weapons/style, have you considered playing a power build and advocating for improvements there?

DeceiverX.8361:

ZyniX.3589:

Yeah I mainly use the Staff as a weapon thanks to deathly chill and shivers of dread from the Reaper elite. Now I hear deathly chill will get a nerf come Path of Fire release and I don’t want to be forced to play the new elite spec and use a Scepter because I never liked that weapon.

If you don’t like the weapons/style, have you considered playing a power build and advocating for improvements there?

Probably because it will take less effort for Anet to just giving Dagger a bit of torment on auto attack.