Guild Wars 2

Hi I previously made this post in the profession balance forum but it was archived and the conversation wasn’t over so here goes:

Regeneration’s effect, like all healing, is blocked by Death Shroud. Unlike some professions, Necromancers have no benefits simply for having a boon and get no special benefit from Regeneration specifically either. No runes will give a benefit for having Regeneration or generic boons either. As such, a Necromancer in Death Shroud is literally receiving no benefit from the boon.

However, there are things that punish the Necromancer for having the boon. Other Necromancers can corrupt it to poison via Corrupt Boon, Well of Corruption, or Path of Corruption. Mesmers and Thieves can steal it with Arcane Thievery, Bountiful Theft, or Larcenous Strike. Mesmers can copy it with Mimic, Necros strip it for extra damage with Spinal Shivers, or Warriors get bonus damage from Destruction of the Empowered.

Unlike traits or skills that get benefits from conditions on a target, the counterplay of removal is not present for boons. Nobody can end their own boon sooner than it would naturally expire. As such, the Regeneration boon turns from buff to liability when a Necromancer activates death shroud.

Credit for this speculation and logic goes to: Drarnor Kunoram.5180

This problem isn’t so much with regenerate itself, but rather Death Shroud. Death Shroud is the worst designed mechanic in the game and it hinders a mega ton of potential strategies we might have just by it existing.

idk why we are complaining.
I win most of my wvw 1v1 fights. in fact i think necros are too strong.
only thing is if the enemy runs in time, I wont be able to catch them.
but if the enemy runs and resets the fight, i count it as my win too.

EremiteAngel.9765:

idk why we are complaining.
I win most of my wvw 1v1 fights. in fact i think necros are too strong.
only thing is if the enemy runs in time, I wont be able to catch them.
but if the enemy runs and resets the fight, i count it as my win too.

This has nothing to do with the strength of necros and everything to do with design flaws. You can have design flaws and be anywhere at all on the power continuum , but that doesn’t mean that the flaws aren’t present.

Regeneration is a boon, and thus is supposed to be a positive effect. When a Necromancer enters Death Shroud, all positive effects cease. It may not always hurt you, but that is literally all it can do; hurt you. An effect that is supposed to help you instead becomes purely a liability.

It also ties in closely with the fact the Necromancer’s two sustain mechanics, Death Shroud and siphons, cannot function together. Since necromancers cannot play without death shroud, the result is that the Blood magic line is entirely ignored most of the time due to the fact it just does not function with Death Shroud.

It does have something to do with the strength of necros as it also has to do with balance regardless if anyone of you admit it. Just because it “makes sense” doesn’t mean it should be implemented as I’m sure it would cause a whole lot of balance issues.

Id just like to point something out. What keeps the majority of players playing a game? Is it balance or is it fun? Sometimes it is necessary to make changes and disregard the balance risk for the sake of the longevity of the game. Obviously in PvP games balance is important. However even dedicated PvP games need things to get shaken up every now and again. GW2 isnt even a dedicated PvP game. The PvP community is tiny compared to the PvE and WvW communities.

People are bored of the game at the moment. We havent had any substantial amount of new skills and traits. We havent had new weapons or weapon choices and we havent had new classes. All of these would effect balance in huge ways when implemented. But its widely agreed that they are needed soon.

Healing in DS is a pretty small change in comparison. And it is much easier to predict how it will effect the game than the other things i mentioned. It would also be much easier to adjust and balance around it than it would when implementing totally new stuff. Personally I think you are just being selfish and stubborn if you always use balance as an excuse to argue against changes. You can always balance around changes if necessary after all.

I know people say giving necros heals in deathshroud would give them too much sustain, but the way I look at it, we don’t have that many ways to avoid damage. Other classes have access to vigor to increase dodges, guards to block damage, invulnabilty/pseudo in invulnerability, stealth, mobility, short cool down burst heals, passive health regen, stability to let them not be cc’d into bad positions, and other mechanics. Essentially, we may have two health bars as necros, but other classes have ways to block, avoid, or just flat out ignore more than two health bars worth of damage. Since we don’t have access to things other classes have let us be healed in deathshroud, let us have insane sustain to counteract the fact we don’t have many other defensive mechanics other than deathshroud.

NeXeD.3042:

It does have something to do with the strength of necros as it also has to do with balance regardless if anyone of you admit it. Just because it “makes sense” doesn’t mean it should be implemented as I’m sure it would cause a whole lot of balance issues.

As I explained, in the post right before yours, the strength of necros is irrelevant in this case. Design flaws are no indication at all on power level. Such flaws can leave the profession at literally any point along the power scale.

Yes, changing Regeneration to not be purely negative in Death Shroud would change the balance. But the actual strength of the Necromancer has nothing to do with the fact that the mechanics are flawed.

NeXeD.3042:

It does have something to do with the strength of necros as it also has to do with balance regardless if anyone of you admit it. Just because it “makes sense” doesn’t mean it should be implemented as I’m sure it would cause a whole lot of balance issues.

I seriously don’t think that it would. Regen doesn’t offer anything in terms of burst healing, and it’s mostly not effective unless you’re speccing for it.

We all know necros have issues wih sustain, and if you go full out vampire necro right now it’s totally subpar. You should be able to spec a tanky necro and if you could heal through DS, you could with current traits.

Roe.3679:

NeXeD.3042:

It does have something to do with the strength of necros as it also has to do with balance regardless if anyone of you admit it. Just because it “makes sense” doesn’t mean it should be implemented as I’m sure it would cause a whole lot of balance issues.

I seriously don’t think that it would. Regen doesn’t offer anything in terms of burst healing, and it’s mostly not effective unless you’re electing for it.

We all know necros have issues wih sustain, and if you go full out vampire necro right now it’s totally subpar. You should be able to spec a tanky necro and if you could heal through DS, you could with current traits.

I don’t mean just the regen boon, I feel like the title of this topic is misleading since most of the time when people are talking about healing in DS they are not just talking about the regen boon and lets be honest that’s not what any of you are talking about either.

And let’s also not pretend we didn’t get healing in DS. We do. It’s not great we know but it’s a start.

In all my posts i havent said they shouldn’t give us ANY healing in DS I just think alot of people are getting out of hand with it. Now if they keep nerfing DS they will eventually have to buff something but I’d rather be given access to anti CC rather than buffing healing.

I don’t know why, maybe something just clicked with me recently but I’m not having any sustain issues. And I’ve been doing pretty decently even queueing up solo which apparently has been an issue for people. Hell yesterday we had a 4v5 game that we actually won, was a first for me.

spoj.9672:

Personally I think you are just being selfish and stubborn if you always use balance as an excuse to argue against changes. You can always balance around changes if necessary after all.

Hear, hear.

NeXeD.3042:

And let’s also not pretend we didn’t get healing in DS. We do. It’s not great we know but it’s a start.

Unholy Sanctuary is not a start, it’s an insult.

NeXeD.3042:

In all my posts i havent said they shouldn’t give us ANY healing in DS I just think alot of people are getting out of hand with it.

It’s the opposite actually. As of now, necro healing is basically non existent. Allowing any source of healing (and I mean all of it) to go through DS is but a minor step towards bringing us to the level of all other classes.
Beyond that we should actually get additional healing sources and/or buffs to our current sources of healing.

NeXeD.3042:

And I’ve been doing pretty decently even queueing up solo which apparently has been an issue for people. Hell yesterday we had a 4v5 game that we actually won, was a first for me.

Yes, I’m sure you won a 4v5 because your necro sustain was so good… not! Your opponents sucked, that’s all.

flow.6043:

spoj.9672:

Personally I think you are just being selfish and stubborn if you always use balance as an excuse to argue against changes. You can always balance around changes if necessary after all.

Hear, hear.

NeXeD.3042:

And let’s also not pretend we didn’t get healing in DS. We do. It’s not great we know but it’s a start.

Unholy Sanctuary is not a start, it’s an insult.

NeXeD.3042:

In all my posts i havent said they shouldn’t give us ANY healing in DS I just think alot of people are getting out of hand with it.

It’s the opposite actually. As of now, necro healing is basically non existent. Allowing any source of healing (and I mean all of it) to go through DS is but a minor step towards bringing us to the level of all other classes.
Beyond that we should actually get additional healing sources and/or buffs to our current sources of healing.

NeXeD.3042:

And I’ve been doing pretty decently even queueing up solo which apparently has been an issue for people. Hell yesterday we had a 4v5 game that we actually won, was a first for me.

Yes, I’m sure you won a 4v5 because your necro sustain was so good… not! Your opponents sucked, that’s all.

Please don’t misunderstand what I said or attempt an attitude with me, I don’t do it to you.

I didn’t mean we won because of my poc terrormancers sustain is so good. It was just an awesome feeling and I felt like sharing. It was more of a self reflection maybe I got better I don’t know but I see a lot of negativity even though I really do feel like Necro has a spot in the current meta at least in pvp and wvw, I cant comment on pve.

I see this negative attitude with every class especially in pvp with the merging of teamq and soloq and it’s going to be like this for a bit until the old soloq heroes learn to rotate and play more team friendly builds.

But you being an experienced necro…. i just can’t see how you can argue we should have access to all healing while in DS…. I mean I main a necro it would only help…. and I’m still against most of it.

Now with that being said why don’t we turn this thread into something more constructive. As I’ve said before I’m not against giving necros SOME healing in deathshroud.

My solution would be to change unholy sanctuary into something that allows all healing in deathshroud if it was possible. I think that would be perfectly acceptable since taking that trait would nerf your damage.

I was never worried about a tanky necromancer that could be healed by his teammates. I was worried about a necro that was using zerk, carrion, rabid that was all of a sudden a CC spamming death machine who just needs an ele, guard, or engi with him to be pretty much unkillable.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

NeXeD.3042:

It does have something to do with the strength of necros as it also has to do with balance regardless if anyone of you admit it. Just because it “makes sense” doesn’t mean it should be implemented as I’m sure it would cause a whole lot of balance issues.

As I explained, in the post right before yours, the strength of necros is irrelevant in this case. Design flaws are no indication at all on power level. Such flaws can leave the profession at literally any point along the power scale.

Yes, changing Regeneration to not be purely negative in Death Shroud would change the balance. But the actual strength of the Necromancer has nothing to do with the fact that the mechanics are flawed.

Well they can’t just do random kitten to this game because players decided it makes sense… Balance is the most important factor.

NeXeD.3042:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

NeXeD.3042:

It does have something to do with the strength of necros as it also has to do with balance regardless if anyone of you admit it. Just because it “makes sense” doesn’t mean it should be implemented as I’m sure it would cause a whole lot of balance issues.

As I explained, in the post right before yours, the strength of necros is irrelevant in this case. Design flaws are no indication at all on power level. Such flaws can leave the profession at literally any point along the power scale.

Yes, changing Regeneration to not be purely negative in Death Shroud would change the balance. But the actual strength of the Necromancer has nothing to do with the fact that the mechanics are flawed.

Well they can’t just do random kitten to this game because players decided it makes sense… Balance is the most important factor.

Balance is not the most important factor. Read my post again. :P

spoj.9672:

NeXeD.3042:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

NeXeD.3042:

It does have something to do with the strength of necros as it also has to do with balance regardless if anyone of you admit it. Just because it “makes sense” doesn’t mean it should be implemented as I’m sure it would cause a whole lot of balance issues.

As I explained, in the post right before yours, the strength of necros is irrelevant in this case. Design flaws are no indication at all on power level. Such flaws can leave the profession at literally any point along the power scale.

Yes, changing Regeneration to not be purely negative in Death Shroud would change the balance. But the actual strength of the Necromancer has nothing to do with the fact that the mechanics are flawed.

Well they can’t just do random kitten to this game because players decided it makes sense… Balance is the most important factor.

Balance is not the most important factor. Read my post again. :P

You are right but I would argue at least for pvps sake balanced=fun imba=qq

NeXeD.3042:

Roe.3679:

NeXeD.3042:

It does have something to do with the strength of necros as it also has to do with balance regardless if anyone of you admit it. Just because it “makes sense” doesn’t mean it should be implemented as I’m sure it would cause a whole lot of balance issues.

I seriously don’t think that it would. Regen doesn’t offer anything in terms of burst healing, and it’s mostly not effective unless you’re electing for it.

We all know necros have issues wih sustain, and if you go full out vampire necro right now it’s totally subpar. You should be able to spec a tanky necro and if you could heal through DS, you could with current traits.

I don’t mean just the regen boon, I feel like the title of this topic is misleading since most of the time when people are talking about healing in DS they are not just talking about the regen boon and lets be honest that’s not what any of you are talking about either.

And let’s also not pretend we didn’t get healing in DS. We do. It’s not great we know but it’s a start.

In all my posts i havent said they shouldn’t give us ANY healing in DS I just think alot of people are getting out of hand with it. Now if they keep nerfing DS they will eventually have to buff something but I’d rather be given access to anti CC rather than buffing healing.

I don’t know why, maybe something just clicked with me recently but I’m not having any sustain issues. And I’ve been doing pretty decently even queueing up solo which apparently has been an issue for people. Hell yesterday we had a 4v5 game that we actually won, was a first for me.

How the heck is the title misleading? It says exactly what I argued.

I understand that you’re not against letting necromancers get healing while in deathshroud; and that’s great, but that does not defeat the fact that we get PUNISHED for having a boon that can be given to us unwillingly, and receive no benefit from it.

I just want to toss this in here:

Noscoc of The Abjured (top tier NA pvp team, WTS Champions) said that fixing this regen issue is a good start to finally giving necros the long deserved buff they’ve needed.

AND I am POSITIVE, if you take this issue to more top tier pvp players they will undoubtedly agree.

Regardless, this is an issue that must be addressed, and Evan Lesh (PvP Gameplay Progammer) told me he would pass it on to the designers.

http://i.imgur.com/0EdzIgR.jpg

Jelzouki.4128:

NeXeD.3042:

Roe.3679:

NeXeD.3042:

It does have something to do with the strength of necros as it also has to do with balance regardless if anyone of you admit it. Just because it “makes sense” doesn’t mean it should be implemented as I’m sure it would cause a whole lot of balance issues.

I seriously don’t think that it would. Regen doesn’t offer anything in terms of burst healing, and it’s mostly not effective unless you’re electing for it.

We all know necros have issues wih sustain, and if you go full out vampire necro right now it’s totally subpar. You should be able to spec a tanky necro and if you could heal through DS, you could with current traits.

I don’t mean just the regen boon, I feel like the title of this topic is misleading since most of the time when people are talking about healing in DS they are not just talking about the regen boon and lets be honest that’s not what any of you are talking about either.

And let’s also not pretend we didn’t get healing in DS. We do. It’s not great we know but it’s a start.

In all my posts i havent said they shouldn’t give us ANY healing in DS I just think alot of people are getting out of hand with it. Now if they keep nerfing DS they will eventually have to buff something but I’d rather be given access to anti CC rather than buffing healing.

I don’t know why, maybe something just clicked with me recently but I’m not having any sustain issues. And I’ve been doing pretty decently even queueing up solo which apparently has been an issue for people. Hell yesterday we had a 4v5 game that we actually won, was a first for me.

How the heck is the title misleading? It says exactly what I argued.

I understand that you’re not against letting necromancers get healing while in deathshroud; and that’s great, but that does not defeat the fact that we get PUNISHED for having a boon that can be given to us unwillingly, and receive no benefit from it.

I just want to toss this in here:

Noscoc of The Abjured (top tier NA pvp team, WTS Champions) said that fixing this regen issue is a good start to finally giving necros the long deserved buff they’ve needed.

AND I am POSITIVE, if you take this issue to more top tier pvp players they will undoubtedly agree.

Regardless, this is an issue that must be addressed, and Evan Lesh (PvP Gameplay Progammer) told me he would pass it on to the designers.

http://i.imgur.com/0EdzIgR.jpg

If your simply arguing that regen needs to be changed to go through deathshroud as it is “sometimes” a bad thing (which is really only against another necro) then the title is not misleading. But that is not what most of the people are asking for.

Also do you honestly think anet doesn’t have someone that noticed regen is useless while Necros are in deathshroud? He was trying to get rid of you.

Not “only against another necro.” Also against thieves, Mesmers, and Warriors. What is supposed to be a beneficial effect can literally do nothing but hurt a necro in death shroud. Does it happen all the time? No, but it does happen. Meanwhile it is helpful 0% of the time.

Pretty sure it’s “helpful” when we aren’t in ds.

NeXeD.3042:

Pretty sure it’s “helpful” when we aren’t in ds.

Yes, then it is. But Necros aren’t out of death shroud for long periods of time if they’re any good.

I have not advocated allowing full healing in death shroud as anything more than a final goal. Small steps have always been the way to go.

But Necros do need to get more healing in death shroud than just Unholy Sanctuary if they are ever going to be an attrition class. Allowing all of it at once would wildly swing the power of Necros into overkill territory. I’m well aware of how strong healing without taking damage really is.

However, just Regeneration, siphon traits, Parasitic Bond, and Parasitic Contagion will not put us into that territory. These are all I advocate for right now. If we ever get those, then evaluate the results and tune from there. The fact it would be too strong if Necros got all healing is no reason at all to deny any of it.

NeXeD.3042:

flow.6043:

spoj.9672:

Personally I think you are just being selfish and stubborn if you always use balance as an excuse to argue against changes. You can always balance around changes if necessary after all.

Hear, hear.

NeXeD.3042:

And let’s also not pretend we didn’t get healing in DS. We do. It’s not great we know but it’s a start.

Unholy Sanctuary is not a start, it’s an insult.

NeXeD.3042:

In all my posts i havent said they shouldn’t give us ANY healing in DS I just think alot of people are getting out of hand with it.

It’s the opposite actually. As of now, necro healing is basically non existent. Allowing any source of healing (and I mean all of it) to go through DS is but a minor step towards bringing us to the level of all other classes.
Beyond that we should actually get additional healing sources and/or buffs to our current sources of healing.

NeXeD.3042:

And I’ve been doing pretty decently even queueing up solo which apparently has been an issue for people. Hell yesterday we had a 4v5 game that we actually won, was a first for me.

Yes, I’m sure you won a 4v5 because your necro sustain was so good… not! Your opponents sucked, that’s all.

Please don’t misunderstand what I said or attempt an attitude with me, I don’t do it to you.

I didn’t mean we won because of my poc terrormancers sustain is so good. It was just an awesome feeling and I felt like sharing. It was more of a self reflection maybe I got better I don’t know but I see a lot of negativity even though I really do feel like Necro has a spot in the current meta at least in pvp and wvw, I cant comment on pve.

I see this negative attitude with every class especially in pvp with the merging of teamq and soloq and it’s going to be like this for a bit until the old soloq heroes learn to rotate and play more team friendly builds.

But you being an experienced necro…. i just can’t see how you can argue we should have access to all healing while in DS…. I mean I main a necro it would only help…. and I’m still against most of it.

Now with that being said why don’t we turn this thread into something more constructive. As I’ve said before I’m not against giving necros SOME healing in deathshroud.

My solution would be to change unholy sanctuary into something that allows all healing in deathshroud if it was possible. I think that would be perfectly acceptable since taking that trait would nerf your damage.

I was never worried about a tanky necromancer that could be healed by his teammates. I was worried about a necro that was using zerk, carrion, rabid that was all of a sudden a CC spamming death machine who just needs an ele, guard, or engi with him to be pretty much unkillable.

You have to give up a lot of damage to take any of these sustain traits, which is a big reason as to why it’s more likely to work.

Plus, that necro doling out damage and CC with a bunker’s help… Sounds a lot like engis and eles now. You’re only going to do that with skill anyway. That type of teamwork and skill should be rewarded, because right now it’s just a bunker trying to heal a necro and failing, and our traits don’t work in any worthwhile way.

I’m ok with all sources of healing that come from traits I just don’t want allied burst healing. Still think if they give us all that healing, necros will just become the new engi and ele, except with the ability to see saw healthbars.

But it’s not like any of this talking matters. It’s not going to happen. So my presence here is useless. Enjoy never getting healing in ds.

NeXeD.3042:

I’m ok with all sources of healing that come from traits I just don’t want allied burst healing. Still think if they give us all that healing, necros will just become the new engi and ele, except with the ability to see saw healthbars.

But it’s not like any of this talking matters. It’s not going to happen. So my presence here is useless. Enjoy never getting healing in ds.

So what is the difference between a warrior using endure pain and berserker stance but still receiving group heals and a necromancer going into deathshroud?

Deathshroud is a second life bar, yes. But it is a life bar that you need to build up, and it is somewhat difficult to get your life force into high life force territory, as opposed to someone using an invulnerability and eating 10k+ damage.

Not to mention that if you have 2.5k lifeforce and you are hit for 5k, that damage will proceed to affect your actual life points.

A necro is CONSTANTLY going into deathshroud. A necromancer goes into deathshroud to A.) sustain a little B.) set up the burst

You seem bothered by the fact that we are making the most logical arguments. I’m going to enjoy getting this buff lol.

Simply speaking, because only death shroud absorbs all damage, even already applied conditions. It also does so for an extended period of time. It’s not uncommon for me to spend ~10 seconds in death shroud every 30 seconds or less. Think about having Defy Pain up that often. On my spectral zealot build, that’s 2k health I’ve recovered from Unholy Sanctuary alone (frequently followed by up to 4k from Life Siphon). Even worse, my life force may still be at maximum after that period (yay Locust Swarm), meaning my opponents had no opportunity to counteract that healing. Healing while you can’t lose health is very powerful, and only Necromancers can’t lose health for very large percentages of the fight. Even 15 seconds at a time is not uncommon with no traiting (for defense). Condition builds have less life force, but they also spend less time in death shroud.

However, the flip side of this is that health is a Necro’s only real defense, which means to be relevant against multiple opponents, it’s unbearable against a single and balanced for a single foe makes it a speed bump for multiple. There are ways to make it work, but for some reason, ANet is very hesitant to give us those (hint: Locust Swarm and Signet of the Locust are great examples of how to make it work!).

Simply put, Necros are probably the hardest profession to balance defensively. I don’t feel any sympathy for ANet on this front, though, because they dug this hole themselves. Necros need help, definitely, but it is very easy to overtune things.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Simply speaking, because only death shroud absorbs all damage, even already applied conditions. It also does so for an extended period of time. It’s not uncommon for me to spend ~10 seconds in death shroud every 30 seconds or less. Think about having Defy Pain up that often. On my spectral zealot build, that’s 2k health I’ve recovered from Unholy Sanctuary alone (frequently followed by up to 4k from Life Siphon). Even worse, my life force may still be at maximum after that period (yay Locust Swarm), meaning my opponents had no opportunity to counteract that healing. Healing while you can’t lose health is very powerful, and only Necromancers can’t lose health for very large percentages of the fight. Even 15 seconds at a time is not uncommon with no traiting (for defense). Condition builds have less life force, but they also spend less time in death shroud.

However, the flip side of this is that health is a Necro’s * only* real defense, which means to be relevant against multiple opponents, it’s unbearable against a single and balanced for a single foe makes it a speed bump for multiple. There are ways to make it work, but for some reason, ANet is very hesitant to give us those (hint: Locust Swarm and Signet of the Locust are great examples of how to make it work!).

Simply put, Necros are probably the hardest profession to balance defensively. I don’t feel any sympathy for ANet on this front, though, because they dug this hole themselves. Necros need help, definitely, but it is very easy to overtune things.

Valid point, I see what you mean.

Never said i wouldn’t enjoy it.

NeXeD.3042:

But you being an experienced necro…. i just can’t see how you can argue we should have access to all healing while in DS

For several reasons:

1. Our healing is generally too weak.
One might argue that it has to be weak(er) considering we can mitigate some damage with life force. But what I mean is, it is too weak even when you’re spending most of your time in DS.
Keep in mind, a regular necro build can use Consume Conditions every 25 seconds and that’s it. Maybe some ticks of regen if you trigger Mark of Blood on yourself, but overall we’re talking ~6k healing every 25 sec. That means, if you take more than 6k dmg in that time interval you’ll eventually run out of hp: attrition is impossible.

2. Sources other than our main heal force you to give up a lot of damage.
The least offender would be Parasitic Contagion since you’ll have 6 points in Spite. But Unholy Sactuary and Vampiric traits need heavy investments in Death Magic and Bloodmagic.
If you take them now it basically means you’re trying to play a regular build with only ~10 trait points… but you get healing that is overall weaker than regeneration and only works half the time!

3. Vamp Signet.
This signet won’t be viable even then, but all signets’ passives should work in DS and that includes healing for Vamp signet. Secondly, the active is either consumed as a team or you need 25 seconds to use up all charges by yourself. There’s no way you won’t waste a part of that healing during that time by going into DS once or twice.

4. And most importantly, getting healed by allies:

Jelzouki.4128:

NeXeD.3042:

I’m ok with all sources of healing that come from traits I just don’t want allied burst healing.
…

So what is the difference between a warrior using endure pain and berserker stance but still receiving group heals and a necromancer going into deathshroud?

Perfectly argued.
It’s a double standard to assume necros would get an unfair advatage if they could couple their class mechanic with external sources of healing, when other classes have better defensive scaling in team fights to begin with and get healing all the time.

Some people seem to be under the impression that allowing ally healing means you’ll magically get your entire health pool restored to full everytime you go in and out of DS.
Just to make it clear, even if a team was trying to troll and get a necro with high DS uptime and a lot of support classes just to keep the necro alive, they would fail. Such a team comp doesn’t work, they would be very easy to outplay and shut down.

Also, allies usually have better things to do than to hold their entire skill rotations just so they can burst heal necros once they go into DS.
For example: engis will use their Healing Turret when they need to. If the necro happens to be out of DS they will get that healing blast, if they are in DS: tough luck, maybe next time.

Allowing all healing through DS would just be a quality of life improvment, not a balance breaking change. And most importantly, it would be a gateway to introducing additional healing sources, for example a dedicated #6 healing skill in DS.

^ agreed. May also want to add #4: Well of Blood. And even #5, blood fiend. Really right now consume conditions is the only heal with the slightest of synergy with death shroud since you can’t remove any conditions in DS.

I do not know if healing in DS is possible from the company’s perspective on profession design but would like to make a suggestion on compromise.

What if Vampiric skills still heal while in Death Shroud? They kind of suck as they are, anyway, so a few extra tiny heals at the cost of investing points in Blood Magic may a workable compromise.

Anchoku.8142:

I do not know if healing in DS is possible from the company’s perspective on profession design but would like to make a suggestion on compromise.

What if Vampiric skills still heal while in Death Shroud? They kind of suck as they are, anyway, so a few extra tiny heals at the cost of investing points in Blood Magic may a workable compromise.

Anywhere is a start man. We desperately need it.

At the very least I see regen just being naturally inferior because necros cannot take advantage of it all the time unless they don’t use their class mechanic. This is also why all siphoning abilities are subpar as well.

All of this runs under the excuse of “necros have 2 life bars”. That would be fine had it not been for the massive disparity in life force generation. It is a bit funny that scepter, the condition weapon, has the worst and condi builds tend to be more about this attrition thing.

Scepter is the only weapon that gives a large amount of condition damage. Other weapons are either power (axe, MH dagger) or utility (staff, focus, OH dagger, war horn).

Scepter is rather unique in that regard.

I would say there are 3 levels of healing they need to decided to allow healing in death shroud
1 regen
2 self healing
3 allies healing
all these have different reasons why they should be in the game and not be in the game. Anet doesn’t need to allow all this healing for the necromancer but they need to address the problems these problems create in someway.
possible ways they could fix these problems
better ui
redesign
allow the healing

Just curious but are all of you necros losing more than 50% of your 1v1, 2v2s, and 3v3s your coming across?

If you aren’t specced as a bunker you shouldn’t be able to “survive” outnumbered fights and almost no necro specs as a bunker.

Because there is no such thing as a bunker necro.

That is an interesting question, NeXeD. When I do PvP, which is not very often, I try experimental builds or builds posted here, on the forums.

At a high level view, Necromancer’s damage mitigation comes from non-damaging conditions and DS. Condition duration is extended by Spite and DS traits are in Soul Reaping. Blood Magic does little for bunkering (my opinion) and Death Magic supports staff and minions. What really is a bunker on Necro? A power/DS Necro seems to have pretty good sustain compared to a BM Necro because of the extra CC. Retaliation in DS is in Spite, too.

Yeah that’s right you all better not answer my question, you know you won’t like what I’m gonna say when I get your answers.

Yeah spoj I know. Technically I do have a bunkerish build that can work but not alot of people use it.

Well, fine. I lose most of my matches but have little PvP experience and, when I do play, I am more interested in how particular trait skills, runes, and sigils work together.

Figuring out what seems to work, or not, and why are the only reasons for me to PvP. Normally, I cannot bring myself to care about PvP. Trying to prove I am a better killer than other people in virtual reality has not been interesting for at least 20 years.

Dont you find it a little ironic that the class that is supposed to be the attrition and stand there and take it class cannot be a bunker?

NeXeD.3042:

Yeah that’s right you all better not answer my question, you know you won’t like what I’m gonna say when I get your answers.

I honestly have no idea what point you are trying to make. Just assume we all said both more and less than 50%. What now?

Regarding your statement about bunkers, other classes can survive outnumbered fights longer while being glassier than necros could ever be.

What class can use a zerk amulet and survive outnumbered fights for longer than a necro? How can one be Glassier than a necro ever be?

The two classes that come to mind are mesmer and theif, but I’m not sure running away counts as lasting.

flow.6043:

NeXeD.3042:

Yeah that’s right you all better not answer my question, you know you won’t like what I’m gonna say when I get your answers.

I honestly have no idea what point you are trying to make. Just assume we all said both more and less than 50%. What now?

Regarding your statement about bunkers, other classes can survive outnumbered fights longer while being glassier than necros could ever be.

I’m not going to tell anyone why I want that question answered until it’s been answered at least a few times.

spoj.9672:

Dont you find it a little ironic that the class that is supposed to be the attrition and stand there and take it class cannot be a bunker?

Yup lol

NeXeD.3042:

What class can use a zerk amulet and survive outnumbered fights for longer than a necro? How can one be Glassier than a necro ever be?

The two classes that come to mind are mesmer and theif, but I’m not sure running away counts as lasting.

The only classes that strike me as being incapable of lasting as long as a necro when all are wearing zerk amulets are engineer and elementalist. But every other class with zerk stats can be at least as survivable as a necro is, I would think. Given equal circumstances and skill, obviously.

I’m glad you said equal circumstances =)

I would argue dps guard, full zerk warrior are also glassier. Ranger it would depend on the spec really but I still think they are glassier. Youve already said ele and engi. This leaves mesmer and theif. But they just run away and reset so I don’t count that.

Necro is the best at surviving on a zerker build. I would bet I can make a zerk temp that puts no traits into our two defensive trait lines and is tankier than the other classes. The only problem is the scaling issue with our defensive utilities vs everyone else’s and stab.

NeXeD.3042:

What class can use a zerk amulet and survive outnumbered fights for longer than a necro? How can one be Glassier than a necro ever be?

The two classes that come to mind are mesmer and theif, but I’m not sure running away counts as lasting.

Every single other class should survive better in an outnumbered fight in zerker gear assuming they know how to use their invulns and dodges. As a zerker necro you have nothing to stop chain cc, unless you count trying to disengage with wurm, but even then most classes disengage better.

Wop, fitg, spectral armor pop ds. Last gasp pop ds. Wurm. Pop ds hit 3.

Don’t run into outnumbered fights.

I’m perfectly willing to test all this. I’ll even be the necro so we can use my skill level as a base and my skill level is low so it should be a good indicator if I can survive. But I really think we should look at the differences in 1vX 2vX and 3vX.

NeXeD.3042:

Wop, fitg, spectral armor pop ds. Last gasp pop ds. Wurm. Pop ds hit 3.

Don’t run into outnumbered fights.

I’m perfectly willing to test all this. I’ll even be the necro so we can use my skill level as a base and my skill level is low so it should be a good indicator if I can survive. But I really think we should look at the differences in 1vX 2vX and 3vX.

Low skill level isn’t good for testing this, necros accel at low level where dodging key skills aren’t important, and people don’t know how to chain cc or hit big burst. At high levels that huge hp pool is less and less menacing. Also, running 3 stun breaks and fitg in a zerker amulet is a very bad idea. You will do terrible damage, and won’t be tanky. If we are just talking about the theoretical maximum time someone can survive a 1vs2 or 1vs3, sure necros are up there. If we are talking about real builds people run like 6/x/x/x/6 or 6/6/x/x/x then necros survive for a far shorter time. The problem is still that necros don’t have stability or mobility. Our stun breaks are decent, but without any damage avoidance, disengage, or stability we still get recked against more than 2 opponents.

Don’t you find it strange that the profession based on Aggression magic is punished the hardest for being aggressive?

NeXeD.3042:

Just curious but are all of you necros losing more than 50% of your 1v1, 2v2s, and 3v3s your coming across?

If you aren’t specced as a bunker you shouldn’t be able to “survive” outnumbered fights and almost no necro specs as a bunker.

I win most of my 1v1, 2v2 and 3v3
no1 should be able to survive outnumber just get away however given player skill difference that isn’t always true.

NeXeD.3042:

What class can use a zerk amulet and survive outnumbered fights for longer than a necro? How can one be Glassier than a necro ever be?

The two classes that come to mind are mesmer and theif, but I’m not sure running away counts as lasting.

guardian, warrior, mesmer, theif in outnumbered fights even while not running away