Guild Wars 2

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Don’t you find it strange that the profession based on Aggression magic is punished the hardest for being aggressive?

I would disagree. If the necro isn’t aggressive he’s dead….. if you try to play a support or tanky necro you are useless… did you mean attrition?

I didn’t mean my opponents or the other classes that would do the testing had to be low skilled.

I meant aggressive. Handling multiple foes at once is definitely aggressive behavior, but Necros fare far worse at that than other professions.

I think we have different ideas of what being aggressive is.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

I meant aggressive. Handling multiple foes at once is definitely aggressive behavior, but Necros fare far worse at that than other professions.

I think you are spot on, there; poor mobility and defense against hard control effects , maybe?

So we lack the ability to be aggressive because we lack the ability to be defensive gotcha….. no.

Tadsoul.6951:

NeXeD.3042:

Just curious but are all of you necros losing more than 50% of your 1v1, 2v2s, and 3v3s your coming across?

If you aren’t specced as a bunker you shouldn’t be able to “survive” outnumbered fights and almost no necro specs as a bunker.

I win most of my 1v1, 2v2 and 3v3
no1 should be able to survive outnumber just get away however given player skill difference that isn’t always true.

NeXeD.3042:

What class can use a zerk amulet and survive outnumbered fights for longer than a necro? How can one be Glassier than a necro ever be?

The two classes that come to mind are mesmer and theif, but I’m not sure running away counts as lasting.

guardian, warrior, mesmer, theif in outnumbered fights even while not running away

Ok so you win most of your fights, but you agree with everyone else that we are missing healing. K.

Guard is glassier cmon man. Theives and mesmers can’t sit on a point and in the current meta will die to aoe unless they run away and we aren’t counting that right?

Warrior…. ok here’s the thing I really don’t have much experience playing one. I’ve dabbled a bit but I hated the way I felt on a warrior. BUT I know my experiences against them and I know it’s not very common to see a zerk warrior but as soon as that zerk warriors stances are done he’s ded. And I doubt zerk warriors would be running shouts.

Tadsoul.6951:

NeXeD.3042:

Just curious but are all of you necros losing more than 50% of your 1v1, 2v2s, and 3v3s your coming across?

If you aren’t specced as a bunker you shouldn’t be able to “survive” outnumbered fights and almost no necro specs as a bunker.

I win most of my 1v1, 2v2 and 3v3
no1 should be able to survive outnumber just get away however given player skill difference that isn’t always true.

NeXeD.3042:

What class can use a zerk amulet and survive outnumbered fights for longer than a necro? How can one be Glassier than a necro ever be?

The two classes that come to mind are mesmer and theif, but I’m not sure running away counts as lasting.

guardian, warrior, mesmer, theif in outnumbered fights even while not running away

In my opinion on zerk amulet+spectral walk+wurm+armor even with 6/6/x/x/x can outlive any class in outnumbered scenarios (stealthing every 10 seconds is something else)

Has any of you ever played spectral sustain builds in pvp? We have lots of protection, and the ds regen in these builds is ridiculous. Spectral builds with FitG are very very hard to kill, in fact its easier to survive in 1v2 than 1v1 sometimes. (WoP) and energy sigils take care of endurance.

On topic my 2 cents, what OP stated is absolutely correct, and the balance for hp sustain is pretty annoying, the possible OPness is around the corner.
But I really hope someone is working on it, cause 6k every 25sec with a big chance to interrupt is pretty bad. And as if allowing vampirics in ds would do a hell lot, you would likely only get a max 1,6k heal from transfusion against 5 enemies every 40 seconds.

Pelopidas.2140:

In my opinion on zerk amulet+spectral walk+wurm+armor even with 6/6/x/x/x can outlive any class in outnumbered scenarios (stealthing every 10 seconds is something else)

Has any of you ever played spectral sustain builds in pvp? We have lots of protection, and the ds regen in these builds is ridiculous. Spectral builds with FitG are very very hard to kill, in fact its easier to survive in 1v2 than 1v1 sometimes. (WoP) and energy sigils take care of endurance.

On topic my 2 cents, what OP stated is absolutely correct, and the balance for hp sustain is pretty annoying, the possible OPness is around the corner.
But I really hope someone is working on it, cause 6k every 25sec with a big chance to interrupt is pretty bad. And as if allowing vampirics in ds would do a hell lot, you would likely only get a max 1,6k heal from transfusion against 5 enemies every 40 seconds.

Any spectral sustain build is bad. You might be tanky (arguably no more tanky then engis or eles and with significantly less damage), but your teammates won’t get anything from you because you have no group support. The reason gaurds and eles are taken isn’t because they can live longer than anyone else on point, it is because they can make their team live longer on point. Necros can’t do that.

Furthermore, if you are running zerker amulet with 3 stun breaks and fitg your doing really subpar damage, and at that point you should either switch amulets or bring a thief, ele, mesmer or ranger to actually kill someone quickly. I also don’t believe your claim that the rough build you said will last longer in a 1vs2 than any other build in zerker. If you could do that while still dealing good damage, teams would be taking power necros in there team comps to sit at home.

NeXeD.3042:

Tadsoul.6951:

NeXeD.3042:

Just curious but are all of you necros losing more than 50% of your 1v1, 2v2s, and 3v3s your coming across?

If you aren’t specced as a bunker you shouldn’t be able to “survive” outnumbered fights and almost no necro specs as a bunker.

I win most of my 1v1, 2v2 and 3v3
no1 should be able to survive outnumber just get away however given player skill difference that isn’t always true.

NeXeD.3042:

What class can use a zerk amulet and survive outnumbered fights for longer than a necro? How can one be Glassier than a necro ever be?

The two classes that come to mind are mesmer and theif, but I’m not sure running away counts as lasting.

guardian, warrior, mesmer, theif in outnumbered fights even while not running away

Ok so you win most of your fights, but you agree with everyone else that we are missing healing. K.

Guard is glassier cmon man. Theives and mesmers can’t sit on a point and in the current meta will die to aoe unless they run away and we aren’t counting that right?

Warrior…. ok here’s the thing I really don’t have much experience playing one. I’ve dabbled a bit but I hated the way I felt on a warrior. BUT I know my experiences against them and I know it’s not very common to see a zerk warrior but as soon as that zerk warriors stances are done he’s ded. And I doubt zerk warriors would be running shouts.

If necromancers could escape as efficiently as thieves and mesmers I would be so happy.

Ok, I’ll give you that. Imagine a class with almost 40hp zerker specced that has can reset whenever it feels like it?

random,

what qualifies as “good” damage?

(dont hate me, I am genuinely curious. I have been running more and more PvP lately and trying to make more of an impact. )

I have been running varient (i think) of Leeto’s Dagger shroud.
6,2,00,6
barbarian amulet
(still trying to find a good rune to run with it that works with me currently )

The fact that you can win “attrition” fight or “survive” outnumbered fights does not necessarily mean that you can be a good bunker, at least not in sPvP where we have only one point with radius bigger than 240.

zapv.8051:

Pelopidas.2140:

In my opinion on zerk amulet+spectral walk+wurm+armor even with 6/6/x/x/x can outlive any class in outnumbered scenarios (stealthing every 10 seconds is something else)

Has any of you ever played spectral sustain builds in pvp? We have lots of protection, and the ds regen in these builds is ridiculous. Spectral builds with FitG are very very hard to kill, in fact its easier to survive in 1v2 than 1v1 sometimes. (WoP) and energy sigils take care of endurance.

On topic my 2 cents, what OP stated is absolutely correct, and the balance for hp sustain is pretty annoying, the possible OPness is around the corner.
But I really hope someone is working on it, cause 6k every 25sec with a big chance to interrupt is pretty bad. And as if allowing vampirics in ds would do a hell lot, you would likely only get a max 1,6k heal from transfusion against 5 enemies every 40 seconds.

Any spectral sustain build is bad. You might be tanky (arguably no more tanky then engis or eles and with significantly less damage), but your teammates won’t get anything from you because you have no group support. The reason gaurds and eles are taken isn’t because they can live longer than anyone else on point, it is because they can make their team live longer on point. Necros can’t do that.

Furthermore, if you are running zerker amulet with 3 stun breaks and fitg your doing really subpar damage, and at that point you should either switch amulets or bring a thief, ele, mesmer or ranger to actually kill someone quickly. I also don’t believe your claim that the rough build you said will last longer in a 1vs2 than any other build in zerker. If you could do that while still dealing good damage, teams would be taking power necros in there team comps to sit at home.

Nah if you wear zerk amulet your damage isnt subpar, you won’t spike as much but you will be hell tankier compared to any other zerk class. Keep in mind traits are all offensive except FitG(6/2/0/0/6), and you can even skip FitG(6/6/x/x/2). The argument is survival of zerk necro in outnumbered fights compared to other classes (zerk), of which only guard and warrior come close, not who can burst the best.
This is the actual spectral build i’ve personally used(can be tweaked for more damage), try it and see for yourself. Works with celestial and battle sigils or zerk.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fRAQRBHRhG2IHN12WcjvN83oYXQkaAUBiczHqXvNLA-TJxHwACOJAn3fYZZAAPBAA

Also about what teams do, people discover new things all the time, for example condi ranger was recently used effectively by a top pvp player not too far back, while everyone said how condi ranger is useless in teamfights, loses to other condi classes, the general ranger sucks cryout. Engi has other ways of defending home node rather than facetanking, which in my opinion we can do better (dont get me wrong, engi is more effective at keeping/decap). Also there is a dhuumfire spectral condi variation, which isnt too effective, so spectral doesnt always mean 100% powah build:P.

NeXeD.3042:

Ok, I’ll give you that. Imagine a class with almost 40hp zerker specced that has can reset whenever it feels like it?

To bad that this class with almost 40hp can also start a fight with “only” 21-23k hp…
And since you dont start with any lf in spvp the 21-23hp scenario is more likely.

But dont misunderstand, i am not saying that necromancer should be able to reset a fight when ever they want (actually i think resetting a fight in general should be alot harder then it is for some other professions).
I just dont like it when people say necros have 40 hp. The LF bar may behave alot like a hp bar, but in my opinion it is more like a temporary hp boost that needs buildup infight and cannot be used anytime (e.g. DS cd), not to mention that it naturally degenerates while in DS.

Also having simply more hp then other classes doesnt mean necros can stay longer in a fight, especially if the other classes have more dodges, blocks, selfhealing etc. So a comparision between classes and not only between their healthpools would be fairer.

But ether way, coming back to the topic, i think the Devs need to take a good look at DS and take the extrems (like no healing, too strong with full lf, too weak with 0 lf, etc.) away.

Pelopidas.2140:

zapv.8051:

Pelopidas.2140:

In my opinion on zerk amulet+spectral walk+wurm+armor even with 6/6/x/x/x can outlive any class in outnumbered scenarios (stealthing every 10 seconds is something else)

Has any of you ever played spectral sustain builds in pvp? We have lots of protection, and the ds regen in these builds is ridiculous. Spectral builds with FitG are very very hard to kill, in fact its easier to survive in 1v2 than 1v1 sometimes. (WoP) and energy sigils take care of endurance.

On topic my 2 cents, what OP stated is absolutely correct, and the balance for hp sustain is pretty annoying, the possible OPness is around the corner.
But I really hope someone is working on it, cause 6k every 25sec with a big chance to interrupt is pretty bad. And as if allowing vampirics in ds would do a hell lot, you would likely only get a max 1,6k heal from transfusion against 5 enemies every 40 seconds.

Any spectral sustain build is bad. You might be tanky (arguably no more tanky then engis or eles and with significantly less damage), but your teammates won’t get anything from you because you have no group support. The reason gaurds and eles are taken isn’t because they can live longer than anyone else on point, it is because they can make their team live longer on point. Necros can’t do that.

Furthermore, if you are running zerker amulet with 3 stun breaks and fitg your doing really subpar damage, and at that point you should either switch amulets or bring a thief, ele, mesmer or ranger to actually kill someone quickly. I also don’t believe your claim that the rough build you said will last longer in a 1vs2 than any other build in zerker. If you could do that while still dealing good damage, teams would be taking power necros in there team comps to sit at home.

Nah if you wear zerk amulet your damage isnt subpar, you won’t spike as much but you will be hell tankier compared to any other zerk class. Keep in mind traits are all offensive except FitG(6/2/0/0/6), and you can even skip FitG(6/6/x/x/2). The argument is survival of zerk necro in outnumbered fights compared to other classes (zerk), of which only guard and warrior come close, not who can burst the best.
This is the actual spectral build i’ve personally used(can be tweaked for more damage), try it and see for yourself. Works with celestial and battle sigils or zerk.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fRAQRBHRhG2IHN12WcjvN83oYXQkaAUBiczHqXvNLA-TJxHwACOJAn3fYZZAAPBAA

Also about what teams do, people discover new things all the time, for example condi ranger was recently used effectively by a top pvp player not too far back, while everyone said how condi ranger is useless in teamfights, loses to other condi classes, the general ranger sucks cryout. Engi has other ways of defending home node rather than facetanking, which in my opinion we can do better (dont get me wrong, engi is more effective at keeping/decap). Also there is a dhuumfire spectral condi variation, which isnt too effective, so spectral doesnt always mean 100% powah build:P.

What this seems to be doing to me is comparing a hypothetical necro build taking full defensive utilities and some defensive traits, compared to regular meta builds and asking which is tankier. I’m sure you can make a shout heal warrior and throw a zerk ammy on it, too, or some weird guardian build. It’s apples to oranges, in my opinion.

As has already been pointed out, we can’t bunker. That is all the proof you need that our sustain is lacking, not comparing zerker builds.

Roe.3679:

Pelopidas.2140:

zapv.8051:

Pelopidas.2140:

In my opinion on zerk amulet+spectral walk+wurm+armor even with 6/6/x/x/x can outlive any class in outnumbered scenarios (stealthing every 10 seconds is something else)

Has any of you ever played spectral sustain builds in pvp? We have lots of protection, and the ds regen in these builds is ridiculous. Spectral builds with FitG are very very hard to kill, in fact its easier to survive in 1v2 than 1v1 sometimes. (WoP) and energy sigils take care of endurance.

On topic my 2 cents, what OP stated is absolutely correct, and the balance for hp sustain is pretty annoying, the possible OPness is around the corner.
But I really hope someone is working on it, cause 6k every 25sec with a big chance to interrupt is pretty bad. And as if allowing vampirics in ds would do a hell lot, you would likely only get a max 1,6k heal from transfusion against 5 enemies every 40 seconds.

Any spectral sustain build is bad. You might be tanky (arguably no more tanky then engis or eles and with significantly less damage), but your teammates won’t get anything from you because you have no group support. The reason gaurds and eles are taken isn’t because they can live longer than anyone else on point, it is because they can make their team live longer on point. Necros can’t do that.

Furthermore, if you are running zerker amulet with 3 stun breaks and fitg your doing really subpar damage, and at that point you should either switch amulets or bring a thief, ele, mesmer or ranger to actually kill someone quickly. I also don’t believe your claim that the rough build you said will last longer in a 1vs2 than any other build in zerker. If you could do that while still dealing good damage, teams would be taking power necros in there team comps to sit at home.

Nah if you wear zerk amulet your damage isnt subpar, you won’t spike as much but you will be hell tankier compared to any other zerk class. Keep in mind traits are all offensive except FitG(6/2/0/0/6), and you can even skip FitG(6/6/x/x/2). The argument is survival of zerk necro in outnumbered fights compared to other classes (zerk), of which only guard and warrior come close, not who can burst the best.
This is the actual spectral build i’ve personally used(can be tweaked for more damage), try it and see for yourself. Works with celestial and battle sigils or zerk.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fRAQRBHRhG2IHN12WcjvN83oYXQkaAUBiczHqXvNLA-TJxHwACOJAn3fYZZAAPBAA

Also about what teams do, people discover new things all the time, for example condi ranger was recently used effectively by a top pvp player not too far back, while everyone said how condi ranger is useless in teamfights, loses to other condi classes, the general ranger sucks cryout. Engi has other ways of defending home node rather than facetanking, which in my opinion we can do better (dont get me wrong, engi is more effective at keeping/decap). Also there is a dhuumfire spectral condi variation, which isnt too effective, so spectral doesnt always mean 100% powah build:P.

What this seems to be doing to me is comparing a hypothetical necro build taking full defensive utilities and some defensive traits, compared to regular meta builds and asking which is tankier. I’m sure you can make a shout heal warrior and throw a zerk ammy on it, too, or some weird guardian build. It’s apples to oranges, in my opinion.

As has already been pointed out, we can’t bunker. That is all the proof you need that our sustain is lacking, not comparing zerker builds.

This.

^

Fifteen character

Roe.3679:

What this seems to be doing to me is comparing a hypothetical necro build taking full defensive utilities and some defensive traits, compared to regular meta builds and asking which is tankier. I’m sure you can make a shout heal warrior and throw a zerk ammy on it, too, or some weird guardian build. It’s apples to oranges, in my opinion.

As has already been pointed out, we can’t bunker. That is all the proof you need that our sustain is lacking, not comparing zerker builds.

The point is that compared to shout wa with zerk armor, we can tank more in outnumbered scenarios. Wurm and sWalk are pretty common utilities. I didnt start the argument anyways, i gave my input..

So all the proof i need that we cant bunker is what has been pointed out in the forum. Seriously? Who has pointed this out and i should take his word ? The only person i recall is Bhawb whose opinion is that we need a melee soft cc weapon to be effective as bunkers, as well as some more sustain.
And I never disagreed that we have sustain problems, that is actually my opinion as well, ive tried making sustain builds work but they really lack. But Life Force sustain builds can regen a hell lot of life force and be tanky as hell, and deal good enough damage for tanky power builds.
You can take my word as proof or try something tankier out for yourself putting aside the forum negativity.

My post was directed at that argument more than you, personally. Not trying to criticize you as a poster.

If the forum isn’t enough proof to you, look at the meta. If tanky necro worked it wouldn’t be some niche experimental build. It would have a place on metabattle, which houses every half decent build.

I’m fully aware of the potential of tanky specced power builds, I run full soldiers in wvw and it works nicely and can even handle itself in the rare small scale fight I have with that build. But I don’t see it succeeding in PVP at a decent level because it lacks true sustain and spike damage, as well as mobility and support. In WVW it is functional where ambient creatures are plentiful, I can rock ascended gear, and use food, guard stacks, etc. but not in pvp where deaths are earned more than an environmental fact and you start every match with no life force.

NeXeD.3042:

Tadsoul.6951:

NeXeD.3042:

Just curious but are all of you necros losing more than 50% of your 1v1, 2v2s, and 3v3s your coming across?

If you aren’t specced as a bunker you shouldn’t be able to “survive” outnumbered fights and almost no necro specs as a bunker.

I win most of my 1v1, 2v2 and 3v3
no1 should be able to survive outnumber just get away however given player skill difference that isn’t always true.

NeXeD.3042:

What class can use a zerk amulet and survive outnumbered fights for longer than a necro? How can one be Glassier than a necro ever be?

The two classes that come to mind are mesmer and theif, but I’m not sure running away counts as lasting.

guardian, warrior, mesmer, theif in outnumbered fights even while not running away

Ok so you win most of your fights, but you agree with everyone else that we are missing healing. K.

Guard is glassier cmon man. Theives and mesmers can’t sit on a point and in the current meta will die to aoe unless they run away and we aren’t counting that right?

Warrior…. ok here’s the thing I really don’t have much experience playing one. I’ve dabbled a bit but I hated the way I felt on a warrior. BUT I know my experiences against them and I know it’s not very common to see a zerk warrior but as soon as that zerk warriors stances are done he’s ded. And I doubt zerk warriors would be running shouts.

i win most of my fight because i play with better people its a matter of skill not healing in that case

zerker necromancers cant stand on point for long either in fact its almost suicide because you probably ruining your positioning unlike the other class can do their burst quicker then get out of there
in fact zerker warrior is best at standing on point then because he can easily live for 7 seconds then get out
for the record its easy to kill a zerk necro in under 3 seconds if they dont have a set up defense

Roe.3679:

But I don’t see it succeeding in PVP at a decent level because it lacks true sustain and spike damage, as well as mobility and support.

That is very correct…and its true that necro isnt used as bunker by top teams. But if a tanky necro wants to keep a point, its my opinion he can keep it as long as any engi for example would.
A bunker should do some damage though, and that is often achieved through attrition. Attrition on necro would be the 2 retal traits and vamp signet (lol.)
We do have minions but minions+spectral doesnt work together at all.

Support also needs some affection…but we are just different, we support more offensively than other classes.Weakness, soft cc, boon removals. But nobody likes a support necro cause ele can spam heal/boons remove condis more often. And people prefer to have 15 might on them rather than 15 vuln on opponent.

This is all Blood Magic’s fault