Guild Wars 2

Oh god, a TA exploit? Haven’t seen it. The dungeon is so easy as it is! Uggggggh

Guys leave brittany alone.

well you can actualy kill plant boss without getting targeted by it if you got the correct range weapon, its not an actual jump puzzle exploit yet it still work its just so few people do it its not that apparent. Even then i like to range that boss because i dont have the 4 other plant to contend with. With that jump puz exploit TA just gets another bug to its list.

Oh… But the boss melts in melee in like… 45 seconds…. ……. …………….

Tap Dat Scion Nemesis Gaming

The thread actually started out pretty interesting and then emotions seemed to ruin everything to where the conversation has gone downhill.

I have never played a MMO or MMORPG before GW2 (and never will again because the time requirements) so I have no previous bias. I think the game is pretty fun. I have played it pretty much everyday for over a year now (I at least do my dailies when I’m busy).

Although some bosses might seem trivial with high DPS they weren’t the first time you encountered them. I feel a certain satisfaction remembering how some bosses were once impossible and now they get wrecked by a good group. Really too bad a buffed up Kohler isn’t a main boss of AC on one of the paths. No one seems to kill him anymore. He is the boss that taught me how to dodge and why dodging was important. Killing him for the first time felt like more of an accomplishment than killing the main boss.

I don’t consider stacking an exploit. Why wouldn’t you stay near your group for boons at a minimum? I’m not sure why everyone somehow thinks it is exploiting. If a boss is bugged and can’t attack you doing it I could see that as a problem but it doesn’t appear that way.

Add some more dungeons but stop with the tediousness and the game will remain good. They don’t need to eliminate the DPS builds destroying things. Some of the problem is that everything new that is added now is simply tedious. I’m sure that is why everyone loves DPS’ing everything and I do too. Hitting a boss for 20 minutes is booooring. The game has other stuff to do rather than waste time on a million HP boss. Already fractals seem a little less popular because of the longer paths and the fact it seems you cannot avoid the dredge. I stopped doing them daily a while ago and won’t do them regularly until something is changed a little.

**edited for my bad grammer

Portal Master.9146:

Really too bad a buffed up Kohler isn’t a main boss of AC on one of the paths. No one seems to kill him anymore. He is the boss that taught me how to dodge and why dodging was important. Killing him for the first time felt like more of an accomplishment than killing the main boss.

Why would you skip Kholer?

Indeed, now apparently killing Kholer is the norm. Maybe not as easily as shown in the video, but you get the idea.

Nemesis.8593:

As for the rest of the people in this thread, or anyone that defends speed killing… speed kill away my friends, and feed good about yourself for using every single broken mechanic/exploit in the game, another +1 Lupicus kill ftw… grind away my friends !

What little sympathy some of the more chillax people around here might’ve felt for you will probably drop as soon as they see that cancer inducing statement about speedrunners being “exploiters” for running good builds and good rotations. I won’t be reading anymore than that, if I did, I’d probably catch AIDS too.

Nikaido.3457:

Nemesis.8593:

As for the rest of the people in this thread, or anyone that defends speed killing… speed kill away my friends, and feed good about yourself for using every single broken mechanic/exploit in the game, another +1 Lupicus kill ftw… grind away my friends !

What little sympathy some of the more chillax people around here might’ve felt for you will probably drop as soon as they see that cancer inducing statement about speedrunners being “exploiters” for running good builds and good rotations. I won’t be reading anymore than that, if I did, I’d probably catch AIDS too.

My favorite is how he uses WoW as an example, as if people don’t do theorycrafting for the most efficient builds to kill bosses fast/easily there as well.

I guess GW2 invented theorycrafting as well as speed running and elitism.

I take part in some fast runs of dungeons, not really speed clears but definitely under 10 minutes for several paths. Never really “exploit” past using class abilities like portal, stealth, might stacking, summoned weapons, reflects, ect. If the boss happens to melt instantly due to full might + fury + reflecting his own damage… How is that an exploit? Its good play being rewarded. Doing it “legit” means no party coordination/ranging dying every 10 seconds for the res fall repeat cycle like how most pugs were at launch. I guess using knowledge of game mechanics is an exploit too. Using the aggro mechanic and pulls to wall an enemy is an exploit? man he would have hated GW1 where body blocking monsters for spike balls was the usual tactic. Or that Xsc was the endgame (x being whatever map you wanted, usually HM areas).

As for condition builds and pve, yeah, DOA due to capped stacks and diminishing returns. They don’t work and trying to make a kitten not a kitten is an quixotic quest.

The stupidity in this thread is epic.
If people believe that speed running times is what makes the Elite in pve for gw2 people are more deluted than i ever believed.

Even the way we kill the 3 acolyte waves on the lamest of pugs on cof1 is an exploit and not they way it was meant by the devs.And people still defend skiping 90% of a dungeon with legit ways.

The only problem I have with Nemesis is that he claims builds, which are proven bad, as good. You (Nemesis) should face it, the builds you provided aren’t the most efficient, mostlikely not even efficient at all. No matter if assuming an organized group, a pug or even a solo setting, there are better alternatives for aswell damage as support or both in one.

I watch Nemesis’ videos because I fancy accents and his just hits the right spot

Uberkafros.5431:

The stupidity in this thread is epic.
If people believe that speed running times is what makes the Elite in pve for gw2 people are more deluted than i ever believed.

Even the way we kill the 3 acolyte waves on the lamest of pugs on cof1 is an exploit and not they way it was meant by the devs.And people still defend skiping 90% of a dungeon with legit ways.

Since I’ve been “deluted” maybe you can tell me what makes the elite in pve for gw2?

Oh and while you’re answering for me, when you were at the design meeting where the Acolyte event was created, can you please explain what, specifically, the devs intended? I mean, since you know their intentions you were obviously there, right?

Lastly, you seem to think skipping trash mobs is skipping the challenge. What if, and this is a crazy thought, skipping some mobs is actually more challenging than fighting them, and thus a greater demonstration of skill?

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

Uberkafros.5431:

The stupidity in this thread is epic.
If people believe that speed running times is what makes the Elite in pve for gw2 people are more deluted than i ever believed.

Even the way we kill the 3 acolyte waves on the lamest of pugs on cof1 is an exploit and not they way it was meant by the devs.And people still defend skiping 90% of a dungeon with legit ways.

Since I’ve been “deluted” maybe you can tell me what makes the elite in pve for gw2?

Oh and while you’re answering for me, when you were at the design meeting where the Acolyte event was created, can you please explain what, specifically, the devs intended? I mean, since you know their intentions you were obviously there, right?

Lastly, you seem to think skipping trash mobs is skipping the challenge. What if, and this is a crazy thought, skipping some mobs is actually more challenging than fighting them, and thus a greater demonstration of skill?

Guild wars 2 elite: Doing Grenth with a full team of PVT necros or doing Simin legit with the bone from the grenth room.

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

Uberkafros.5431:

The stupidity in this thread is epic.
If people believe that speed running times is what makes the Elite in pve for gw2 people are more deluted than i ever believed.

Even the way we kill the 3 acolyte waves on the lamest of pugs on cof1 is an exploit and not they way it was meant by the devs.And people still defend skiping 90% of a dungeon with legit ways.

Since I’ve been “deluted” maybe you can tell me what makes the elite in pve for gw2?

Oh and while you’re answering for me, when you were at the design meeting where the Acolyte event was created, can you please explain what, specifically, the devs intended? I mean, since you know their intentions you were obviously there, right?

Lastly, you seem to think skipping trash mobs is skipping the challenge. What if, and this is a crazy thought, skipping some mobs is actually more challenging than fighting them, and thus a greater demonstration of skill?

I’m speechless…
Are we doing a low % metroid speedrun here? Or are we playing an mmo?
And if you are happy that your Elite content in gw2 is to speed run with 4wars and a mez be my guest. It sure aint mine though.

And yes im 100% positive that the devs didn’t intend for us to just make mobs evade on the acolyte event of cof1 until the rest acolyte wave spawns.
Neither did they say “kitten yeah!!!Our awsome gamers found an inovative way to do this event.GG team”

So you don’t actually know what the intention was behind the acolyte event at all.

I can quite easily say it’s intended because of the fact that mobs leash when people reach the safe spots. Considering the concentrated firepower of the mobs, it’s a bit like the spider room in Arah p2 where I can’t imagine you’re intended to just roll through and kill everything, you just do the bare necessities and get out. Also … the mobs despawn. If it wasn’t intended, then it would be more likely they would persist.

And how else would you define the elite of gw2 pve? Who can punish themselves heavily enough and still clear content? Full trash clears of Arah in apothecary to show how hardcore we are?

It’s all about how hard you can gib yourself with poor builds and gear and still somehow painfully make it through. Sounds really fun. Like pulling teeth, one of my favorite past times.

Uberkafros.5431:

And if you are happy that your Elite content in gw2 is to speed run with 4wars and a mez be my guest. It sure aint mine though.

4 Wars and a Mes isn’t top dmg. Try Ele’s.

Uberkafros.5431:

And yes im 100% positive that the devs didn’t intend for us to just make mobs evade on the acolyte event of cof1 until the rest acolyte wave spawns.

Neither did they say “kitten yeah!!!Our awsome gamers found an inovative way to do this event.GG team”

Actually, you should read those year-old threads that got necro’d a few weeks ago in the Dungeon forum. One of them showed [BOON] doing p1 in record time (nowadays we’d consider it slow, but it was impressive back then), and Robert was very supportive of it. Of course, Anet may have changed their view since Robert left, but at least that’s an example of one dev being supportive of speed runs.

Uberkafros.5431:

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

Uberkafros.5431:

The stupidity in this thread is epic.
If people believe that speed running times is what makes the Elite in pve for gw2 people are more deluted than i ever believed.

Even the way we kill the 3 acolyte waves on the lamest of pugs on cof1 is an exploit and not they way it was meant by the devs.And people still defend skiping 90% of a dungeon with legit ways.

Since I’ve been “deluted” maybe you can tell me what makes the elite in pve for gw2?

Oh and while you’re answering for me, when you were at the design meeting where the Acolyte event was created, can you please explain what, specifically, the devs intended? I mean, since you know their intentions you were obviously there, right?

Lastly, you seem to think skipping trash mobs is skipping the challenge. What if, and this is a crazy thought, skipping some mobs is actually more challenging than fighting them, and thus a greater demonstration of skill?

I’m speechless…
Are we doing a low % metroid speedrun here? Or are we playing an mmo?
And if you are happy that your Elite content in gw2 is to speed run with 4wars and a mez be my guest. It sure aint mine though.

And yes im 100% positive that the devs didn’t intend for us to just make mobs evade on the acolyte event of cof1 until the rest acolyte wave spawns.
Neither did they say “kitten yeah!!!Our awsome gamers found an inovative way to do this event.GG team”

I am a bit concerned that if action is not taken soon to prevent this kind of gameplay, more and more people will be converted into this…
Since… no new dungeons, same old same old… why would i even bother doing it right, when so many are doing the “fast way”, if you can’t beat them join them…

This will eventually create an elitists community that is far worse then if we had a damage meter. When damage meter is present people strive to be top 5, with the lack of one… or the ability to raid in 40 man group… people go for the next best thing which is “How fast ?…”

“How fast ?…” means that it doesn’t matter the means… only the result, exploits don’t show on the damage meter…

It’s going to create a very toxic community filled with people that don’t really play an MMO for the MMO’s sake… and every day there’s fewer of us then it is of them…

PS: it shouldn’t matter what i do in my free time, or post on the free internet… the reason i am getting hate is because as they have said “they can’t get this kind of exposure”… they don’t even realize that if they had gotten this kind of exposure, and advertise the thing they are doing, that would have crippled guild wars 2’s stream of new players really really severely.

Think about it… you are a new player, wanting to get into an MMO… you see GW2, and you search for some footage… and you see fight after fight of big bosses being killed in under 10 seconds, first thought… is this a private server ? Are they hacking ?… Are they fighting lower level mobs then them… but why ?… What’s with this game ?
This is the actual game ?… seriously ??

If i were to do a compilation of boss speed kills, and at the end say “Guild Wars 2 best MMO of all times” and post that online i would get banned from the game

The rise of elitist community is scary. They are very harmful to the rest of us with their efficient build setups min maxing. How long will it be before they force it on the rest of us when we join their clearly labelled lfg groups? What about us? The roleplayers, the casual players and the people who like a real challenge with actual fun builds. We are made fun of all the time. What will happen when we are marginalized and pushed out? Will their jokes about ‘play how you want’ be funny then? We are the lifeblood of this community.

Nemesis.8593:

This will eventually create an elitists community that is far worse then if we had a damage meter. When damage meter is present people strive to be top 5, with the lack of one… or the ability to raid in 40 man group… people go for the next best thing which is “How fast ?…”

An ingame dmg meter would make life so much easier for theorycrafting. You have no idea. The third-party ones keep bugging, and recording every trial then sifting through combat logs is such a pain.

Dmg meters would also make pug’ing far easier. Let’s say I post on LFG for a zerk s/f RHS guard. I can check his gear via ping req, but 1) I can’t ensure he’s actually wearing the gear he pinged; and 2) I can’t ensure that his traits are properly set up. If there were a dmg meter, I could just compare his dmg-out to the dmg-out that I normally do on my guard. If it were only slightly lower, I wouldn’t worry, since there are other factors in play, such as group comp. But if he were doing half the dmg he ought to be, I could tell that something fishy was going on, and I’d kick him.

Basically, a dmg meter would be one of those very helpful “quality of life” improvements. Speed groups that pug 1 or 2 spots already require experience in dungeons, a gear ping, and sometimes ask about traits, so if a pug already satisfies those requirements, a dmg meter shouldn’t be an issue. Other games have dmg meters and GW2 already has all the data on-hand, so it wouldn’t be too difficult to implement. All Anet would need to introduce is a table to collate it and an interface to display it.

You know what I hate, when I look for a good build for something, seems to make sense, go start building it, then find out its crap. Before I got better at guardian I bought into the knights AH build that was popularized via popular youtube contributer. Yeah, it worked for pugging and I never died ect, but my dmg was terrible and I dragged the team down. Same thing happened before I got better info on the hybrid/dps necromancer video. Didn’t know much about the class so I trusted a popular youtuber… Yeah, build was underwhelming in dungeons and I wasted a fair amount of gold and time (which is a bigger deal than gold) on crap gear.

^ This. For me it was starting off as a d/d 0/10/0/30/30 Ele and wasting a boatload on non-Zerk because I thought daphoenix knew what he was talking about. /facepalm

notabot.3497:

You know what I hate, when I look for a good build for something, seems to make sense, go start building it, then find out its crap. Before I got better at guardian I bought into the knights AH build that was popularized via popular youtube contributer. Yeah, it worked for pugging and I never died ect, but my dmg was terrible and I dragged the team down. Same thing happened before I got better info on the hybrid/dps necromancer video. Didn’t know much about the class so I trusted a popular youtuber… Yeah, build was underwhelming in dungeons and I wasted a fair amount of gold and time (which is a bigger deal than gold) on crap gear.

I did the exact same. I wouldn’t wish that on new players.

Nemesis.8593:

This will eventually create an elitists community that is far worse then if we had a damage meter. When damage meter is present people strive to be top 5, with the lack of one… or the ability to raid in 40 man group… people go for the next best thing which is “How fast ?…”

So you are saying that if we had a damage meter people would try to do the most damage instead of killing bosses the fastest. Now correct me if I’m wrong but as far as I know the more damage you do, the faster you kill bosses. So implementing a damage meter would actually promote the “How fast?” mentality.

What I have learned from this thread:

Playing efficiently in any other game = good and respectable players.
Playing efficiently in GW2 = jerks who ruin the game.

Nemesis.8593:

Uberkafros.5431:

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

Uberkafros.5431:

The stupidity in this thread is epic.
If people believe that speed running times is what makes the Elite in pve for gw2 people are more deluted than i ever believed.

Even the way we kill the 3 acolyte waves on the lamest of pugs on cof1 is an exploit and not they way it was meant by the devs.And people still defend skiping 90% of a dungeon with legit ways.

Since I’ve been “deluted” maybe you can tell me what makes the elite in pve for gw2?

Oh and while you’re answering for me, when you were at the design meeting where the Acolyte event was created, can you please explain what, specifically, the devs intended? I mean, since you know their intentions you were obviously there, right?

Lastly, you seem to think skipping trash mobs is skipping the challenge. What if, and this is a crazy thought, skipping some mobs is actually more challenging than fighting them, and thus a greater demonstration of skill?

I’m speechless…
Are we doing a low % metroid speedrun here? Or are we playing an mmo?
And if you are happy that your Elite content in gw2 is to speed run with 4wars and a mez be my guest. It sure aint mine though.

And yes im 100% positive that the devs didn’t intend for us to just make mobs evade on the acolyte event of cof1 until the rest acolyte wave spawns.
Neither did they say “kitten yeah!!!Our awsome gamers found an inovative way to do this event.GG team”

I am a bit concerned that if action is not taken soon to prevent this kind of gameplay, more and more people will be converted into this…
Since… no new dungeons, same old same old… why would i even bother doing it right, when so many are doing the “fast way”, if you can’t beat them join them…

This will eventually create an elitists community that is far worse then if we had a damage meter. When damage meter is present people strive to be top 5, with the lack of one… or the ability to raid in 40 man group… people go for the next best thing which is “How fast ?…”

“How fast ?…” means that it doesn’t matter the means… only the result, exploits don’t show on the damage meter…

It’s going to create a very toxic community filled with people that don’t really play an MMO for the MMO’s sake… and every day there’s fewer of us then it is of them…

PS: it shouldn’t matter what i do in my free time, or post on the free internet… the reason i am getting hate is because as they have said “they can’t get this kind of exposure”… they don’t even realize that if they had gotten this kind of exposure, and advertise the thing they are doing, that would have crippled guild wars 2’s stream of new players really really severely.

Think about it… you are a new player, wanting to get into an MMO… you see GW2, and you search for some footage… and you see fight after fight of big bosses being killed in under 10 seconds, first thought… is this a private server ? Are they hacking ?… Are they fighting lower level mobs then them… but why ?… What’s with this game ?
This is the actual game ?… seriously ??

If i were to do a compilation of boss speed kills, and at the end say “Guild Wars 2 best MMO of all times” and post that online i would get banned from the game

Yeah I get it. I’ve seen your footage. Clearly you are onto the right way to play: terrible builds and ranging down mobs doing as little damage as possible in order to lengthen the “experience.”

I apologize for being wrong and trying to do things the most effective way I can, what was I thinking?

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

I apologize for being wrong and trying to do things the most effective way I can, what was I thinking?

Good. You were oppressing my play how I want feelings.

mahariel.4981:

Do you understand why I hate almost the entire game community?

I do. I do.
On related news, the more I read and play with him the more I <3 spoj. He should have more views than anyone else on this matter.
<3 luv <3
We should all admire his self control, shouldn’t we. I’d already be pulling my hair and screeaming at the screen- so hard to argue against a brick wall. I’m sure you would too

This thread has come a long way.

Nemesis just a question. Would you consider adding sections to your next guide? I mean, a WvW build, a supportish build, a PvP build, a speedrun build, etc. This way people can chose what they want to go for, you are not forcing anything down their throats and they get to pick what they want.

Isn’t that a better option? Your viewer count is quite remarkable, you actually have the power to inform these players with all the options out there.

Give him a break. Its clear that he doesn’t like the dungeon speedclear playstyle, so he will not give publicity to the dungeon’s meta builds on his channel, he streams how he wants.

I find it weird that wvw players think that stacking in dungeons is not an intended gameplay, but in wvw they play in zergs which is basically 100s of players stacking against another 100s of players.

I think they can’t stand the act of standing in a corner. It probably looks and feels a bit weird.

Spoj is indeed a very polite and respectable person. Let us all give him cookies.

Still, it makes no sense to me at all how someone can think that CCing mobs together, or using LoS on them and then killing them as quickly as possible while also knocking them down, stunning them, or blocking their attacks with buffs is an “exploit” or a “cheat”. This is what is commonly known as “organized group play”.

What Nemesis keeps trying to advocate is anti organized, or “run around like chicken with head cut off”. Making content take longer does not make it more or less legitimate. This playstyle, while still effective in GW2, is not somehow more real just because you stand there and let the mobs do their thing while ignoring half of the skills present in the game.

I can respect that his ideas are for newer, less experienced players, or players who desire less intensive playstyles, but his insistence that the current meta builds and the current tactics they use are anything other than legitimate is completely wrong. There is absolutely nothing wrong with promoting more organized teamwork that results in better and faster runs. Maybe if he could respect that I wouldn’t consider his ideas a plague on the community.

You all here in the dungeon forum have proved one thing : you know the meta build. No one can take this from you. You found the most efficient way of beating the dungeons.

But I understand Nemesis point too.

More and more in the lfg we find demands for zerk/scholar warriors and gear ping. You are as free as you want to claim this. After all it is the most effective combination.

But it should not.

I liked the idea of this game being “play as you want” in the sense of not having to face again the restrictive dungeon group searches that the trinity brought. Now we are slowly but surely replacing LF1M tank or healer by LF4M zerk warriors.

I think this is OK with you, but it saddens me. I don’t like the zerk playstyle as efficient as it might be. I would love for control and support to weight as much as dps in encounters.

And this is where I agree with Nemesis that the game is broken. AS proud as you are to be able to solo the dungeon bosses and as impressive I find this is, it does not take away the feeling from me that a dungeon boss SHOULD not be soloable in the first place.

I will not talk about exploits since I feel most of the people here are not using them. But the dungeons are broken if one class and spec overshadows all the other.

Now, as a proud defender of the “play as you want” many here seem to despise, this also includes you : you have all the right in the world to require what your team should wear and what people you want to play with. But I feel that if the dungeons were better designed and other specs more efficient you would be less stressed about who joins you.

BeoErgon.9107:

I think this is OK with you, but it saddens me. I don’t like the zerk playstyle as efficient as it might be. I would love for control and support to weight as much as dps in encounters.

We use ton of support. Blind aegis stability reflection projectile absorption ring of warding line of warding knockdown knockback pulls stacking might fury vuln AoE cond removal […]. Just not the afk healbot thing you’d like to see in the game.

And the difference between us and your “play as you want” is that we play the game the way it actually is, while you play the game under some sort of different/parallel world fantasy where using a control build would enforce a control gameplay, which obviously doesn’t happen. Just look at the tense you used yourself. “I would love for”. Conditional. That’s because the actual game doesn’t support your way of thinking. It doesn’t weight as much and no amount of wishful thinking is going to make it happen. You’re all almost like TC’s roleplayers. You’re roleplaying in dungeons instead of open world. Roleplaying healbots and tanks groups.

Nikaido.3457:

BeoErgon.9107:

I think this is OK with you, but it saddens me. I don’t like the zerk playstyle as efficient as it might be. I would love for control and support to weight as much as dps in encounters.

We use ton of support. Blind aegis stability reflection projectile absorption ring of warding line of warding knockdown knockback pulls stacking might fury vuln AoE cond removal […]. Just not the afk healbot thing you’d like to see in the game.

And the difference between us and your “play as you want” is that we play the game the way it actually is, while you play the game under some sort of different/parallel world fantasy where using a control build would enforce a control gameplay, which obviously doesn’t happen. Just look at the tense you used yourself. “I would love for”. Conditional. That’s because the actual game doesn’t support your way of thinking. It doesn’t weight as much and no amount of wishful thinking is going to make it happen. You’re all almost like TC’s roleplayers. You’re roleplaying in dungeons instead of open world. Roleplaying healbots and tanks groups.

I agree. You are right. Never once I did not say you are not playing the game as it is.

But why do you have to consider other playstyles but zerk as ‘afk bot’? Aren’t you being a little condescending here? When you ask for respect you should start by giving some and stopping your assumptions on what other people want.

I don’t want bot heal. I want for every spec to have its ups and downs. If a ‘zerk’ can do anything and everything it removes any interest in the other playstyles. Full dps should benefit from other classes/specs instead of loosing efficiency because of them.

But again : I am pretty sure you think this works as intended. I am sure it does not; but as many of you here already complained: there is no dungeon team to tune all this.

Playing the game as it is is the normal way to go. Wanting a game to be improved is too.

Will things change because I think that? Surely not.

No no no… of course it is playing as intended from the Devs…

Let me see if i “too” can read the devs minds…
Attempting to read devs minds, please stand by:

“When we said play the way you want… we actually meant that you could do it, but you shouldn’t… because we have actually created only one viable way of playing.”

“We have created the most complex build system of any MMORPG, but that is just for show… you only ever need to use 20% of it…”

“No more holy trinity ! That is our moto… no longer will the players have to suffer the burden of choice… no longer will our players have to suffer diversity and decision making… all you need is one build to rule them all”

“We have also created long dungeons and filled them with monsters because we want players to skip them, jump with weird angles on weird pieces of left over terrains… go over the map, under the map… do what ever it takes to get to the final boss without fighting where you can…”

“… no longer will our players have to suffer through 30 minutes or longer of meaningful harsh PvE experience, for the first time ever… in any MMO… in our game all dungeons can be completed in under 4 minutes…”

“Buy Guild Wars 2 now and see what has never been seen before: One Build, Speed Runs, No complexity, No choice, No problems !… But wait… just when you thought we were done, we have a special offer for you… Buy Guild Wars 2 now and get free VIP status (some of you will know soon enough what i mean by that)”

For those of you who are confused right now… fear not, i have not given up… in fact i have given in… It’s obvious that this is how the devs intended their game to be, and how the “majority” of the community wants it.
So… this is just a few small ideas for my next video, going to use it to advertise the game on a lot of MMORPG websites… it’s going to bring in a lot of new players. What do you guys think ?

/peace my brothers, Nemesis has come to join you… let’s make this game what it can truly be…

PS: If it were up to some of you, the game would go into the ground in less then 1 month.

BeoErgon.9107:

I agree. You are right. Never once I did not say you are not playing the game as it is.

But why do you have to consider other playstyles but zerk as ‘afk bot’? Aren’t you being a little condescending here? When you ask for respect you should start by giving some and stopping your assumptions on what other people want.

I don’t want bot heal. I want for every spec to have its ups and downs. If a ‘zerk’ can do anything and everything it removes any interest in the other playstyles. Full dps should benefit from other classes/specs instead of loosing efficiency because of them.

But again : I am pretty sure you think this works as intended. I am sure it does not; but as many of you here already complained: there is no dungeon team to tune all this.

Playing the game as it is is the normal way to go. Wanting a game to be improved is too.

Will things change because I think that? Surely not.

His point is mainly playing the game as it is, not playing the game wishing what it could be.

Everyone is free to want more, but when playing the game and using these sub-optimal builds – that’s a sure way of many vets not accepting you in their party and that is their party and their call.

imo “no healers” decision was the way to go, i find these dedicated roles not fit for a frontline combat perspective. Even in the military combat medics in the frontline can shoot and doctors stay in camp.

Nemesis.8593:

No no no… of course it is playing as intended from the Devs…

Let me see if i “too” can read the devs minds…
Attempting to read devs minds, please stand by:

“When we said play the way you want… we actually meant that you could do it, but you shouldn’t… because we have actually created only one viable way of playing.”

“We have created the most complex build system of any MMORPG, but that is just for show… you only ever need to use 20% of it…”

“No more holy trinity ! That is our moto… no longer will the players have to suffer the burden of choice… no longer will our players have to suffer diversity and decision making… all you need is one build to rule them all”

“We have also created long dungeons and filled them with monsters because we want players to skip them, jump with weird angles on weird pieces of left over terrains… go over the map, under the map… do what ever it takes to get to the final boss without fighting where you can…”

“… no longer will our players have to suffer through 30 minutes or longer of meaningful harsh PvE experience, for the first time ever… in any MMO… in our game all dungeons can be completed in under 4 minutes…”

“Buy Guild Wars 2 now and see what has never been seen before: One Build, Speed Runs, No complexity, No choice, No problems !… But wait… just when you thought we were done, we have a special offer for you… Buy Guild Wars 2 now and get free VIP status (some of you will know soon enough what i mean by that)”

For those of you who are confused right now… fear not, i have not given up… in fact i have given in… It’s obvious that this is how the devs intended their game to be, and how the “majority” of the community wants it.
So… this is just a few small ideas for my next video, going to use it to advertise the game on a lot of MMORPG websites… it’s going to bring in a lot of new players. What do you guys think ?

/peace my brothers, Nemesis has come to join you… let’s make this game what it can truly be…

PS: If it were up to some of you, the game would go into the ground in less then 1 month.

Check this piece of knowledge…

If you don’t like playing the game the way it is then I suggest staying to your own groups and not handicapping other people’s parties. No point crying about it because they didn’t design it the way you wanted and expecting everyone else to just deal with your selfish decisions.

Bread.7516:

BeoErgon.9107:

I agree. You are right. Never once I did not say you are not playing the game as it is.

But why do you have to consider other playstyles but zerk as ‘afk bot’? Aren’t you being a little condescending here? When you ask for respect you should start by giving some and stopping your assumptions on what other people want.

I don’t want bot heal. I want for every spec to have its ups and downs. If a ‘zerk’ can do anything and everything it removes any interest in the other playstyles. Full dps should benefit from other classes/specs instead of loosing efficiency because of them.

But again : I am pretty sure you think this works as intended. I am sure it does not; but as many of you here already complained: there is no dungeon team to tune all this.

Playing the game as it is is the normal way to go. Wanting a game to be improved is too.

Will things change because I think that? Surely not.

His point is mainly playing the game as it is, not playing the game wishing what it could be.

Everyone is free to want more, but when playing the game and using these sub-optimal builds – that’s a sure way of many vets not accepting you in their party and that is their party and their call.

Don’t worry. I make sure never ever enter a party with zerk/gear check definition. Not my style to annoy people that don’t want me. I stressed this enough I think that people have that right.

What I am questioning is the state of a game that sees those kind of requirements appear and what is becoming of the dungeons in this game : a replacement of the trinity by one unity.

I hated the restriction of the trinity. I hate even more GW2 tendency for the ‘unity’.

And as Nemesis said, I don’t really think that the devs intended it to end like this.

Edit for your edit :
No healers I can deal with… The issue here is that the warriors here (and I mean warriors in the front line combatants sense ) are at the same time healers, tanks, dps, control, support…

BeoErgon.9107:

And as Nemesis said, I don’t really think that the devs intended it to end like this.

They might have not intended this but that’s what happens when you design your game that way. That includes limited radius of boon sharing, cleaving of most melee attacks, virtually no punishment for getting interrupted, abundance of reflects and many other culprits.

BeoErgon.9107:

Don’t worry. I make sure never ever enter a party with zerk/gear check definition. Not my style to annoy people that don’t want me. I stressed this enough I think that people have that right.

What I am questioning is the state of a game that sees those kind of requirements appear and what is becoming of the dungeons in this game : a replacement of the trinity by one unity.

I hated the restriction of the trinity. I hate even more GW2 tendency for the ‘unity’.

And as Nemesis said, I don’t really think that the devs intended it to end like this.

Well, from my dungeon running experience, this unity comes in the form of the people you run with. I run with a few people i know all the time, i know what they’re going to do, i know what their next move is – so with this i can push my limits because i know they have my butt covered.

The idea is more rooted by personal skill, movement, and habits rather than builds. Many people not familiar with team sports or combat will not be able to realize this subtle differences, but it is a huge impact on overall performance.

As with diversity, we all would like more and I doubt anyone here would argue that. What mainly annoys us are people who preach that a certain sub-optimal build that’s really low dps is on par or better than the current meta without evidence. This is mainly the source of the friction.

Edit for your edit because of my edit: (lol)
Well for me isn’t that what a soldier ideally is? good at everything.
Where the difference is the utility skills each class brings which are unique – specialization.

haviz.1340:

BeoErgon.9107:

And as Nemesis said, I don’t really think that the devs intended it to end like this.

They might have not intended this but that’s what happens when you design your game that way. That includes limited radius of boon sharing, cleaving of most melee attacks, virtually no punishment for getting interrupted, abundance of reflects and many other culprits.

I thinks it is a sum of several points:
- Sloppy IA (in other MMOs bosses could detect DPS and heals and act accordingly. Why can’t bosses here detect all those flies clinging to his skirt and kick them away for example?)
- The other side of the coin of the “play how you want”: they made all the specs too self sufficient. A DPS needs no one => no one needs anything but DPS.

I will continue to play on my side, don’t worry guys.

I dont think anyone here is against improvements to the game to allow more build diversity. But being against a whole community just because its not at that stage yet is unfair. Theres always a meta and it might seem pretty bland in gw2 at the moment but for min maxers the fun comes from being useful and efficient, build diversity is a minor issue for us. So whatever works the best will be used. If the game changed and a tank was needed we would start using a tank.

However this game was designed not to have specific roles like tank and healer and that really is a great system. No waiting for hours for that 1 troll tank that leaves halfway through the dungeon, no complete sole reliance on one member of each party. Any party works, but not all are optimal. This is a good concept. You just need to accept that the optimal way of playing might not be something you enjoy. That doesnt mean its broken just because its not to your liking.

BeoErgon.9107:

But why do you have to consider other playstyles but zerk as ‘afk bot’? Aren’t you being a little condescending here? When you ask for respect you should start by giving some and stopping your assumptions on what other people want.

He is correct though. When people say, “I want healing builds to be viable” what they are really saying is, “I want to sit behind the rest of my party, basically out of combat, spamming heals on the people fighting and making green bars go up.”

Or when people say, “I want control builds to be viable” what they are saying is, “I want to run around with my hammer knocking down bosses, not dealing any particularly good damage, but just CCing them using a simple chain of skills because I like the aesthetic of knocking down big bosses with a hammer.”

Or when people say, “I want support builds to be viable” what they are saying is, “I want to sit at the back (next to the healer) out of combat casting buffs on my party and debuffing the enemy.”

The commonality all these things have is they don’t really want to be involved in any of the fighting, they don’t want to have to dodge attacks and they dont want to use twitch skills. These are people who want the old trinity system where weak players can get carried through raids by being buffbots or healbots and not having to try especially hard to help the group succeed.

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

BeoErgon.9107:

But why do you have to consider other playstyles but zerk as ‘afk bot’? Aren’t you being a little condescending here? When you ask for respect you should start by giving some and stopping your assumptions on what other people want.

He is correct though. When people say, “I want healing builds to be viable” what they are really saying is, “I want to sit behind the rest of my party, basically out of combat, spamming heals on the people fighting and making green bars go up.”

Or when people say, “I want control builds to be viable” what they are saying is, “I want to run around with my hammer knocking down bosses, not dealing any particularly good damage, but just CCing them using a simple chain of skills because I like the aesthetic of knocking down big bosses with a hammer.”

Or when people say, “I want support builds to be viable” what they are saying is, “I want to sit at the back (next to the healer) out of combat casting buffs on my party and debuffing the enemy.”

The commonality all these things have is they don’t really want to be involved in any of the fighting, they don’t want to have to dodge attacks and they dont want to use twitch skills. These are people who want the old trinity system where weak players can get carried through raids by being buffbots or healbots and not having to try especially hard to help the group succeed.

All this is assuming a broken game as it is right now, with no consequences at all if you get external support/control or not.

Needing to time controls, add to the overall DPS or dodge is not exclusive to those sitting on the toes of the mob as much as you would like to believe. Sometimes those at distance need to dodge even more and be proactive.

And please, if you are saying that healers in trinity or tanks did not need to ‘get involved too hard’ I don’t know what to tell you. Mostly ALL THE COMBAT depended on them. Sure, the introduction of external mods made those roles become one touch bots, but the role by itself was CRITICAL for any combat.

But no, I don’t want trinity. I want dynamic equal roles among the different specs. That a control/condi/support/distance specced toon becomes a plus and not a minus. Or even better : not a plus, simply an equal than a stacking zerk.

It’s really the use here in this forum to put words in the mouth of people?

Bread.7516:

BeoErgon.9107:

Don’t worry. I make sure never ever enter a party with zerk/gear check definition. Not my style to annoy people that don’t want me. I stressed this enough I think that people have that right.

What I am questioning is the state of a game that sees those kind of requirements appear and what is becoming of the dungeons in this game : a replacement of the trinity by one unity.

I hated the restriction of the trinity. I hate even more GW2 tendency for the ‘unity’.

And as Nemesis said, I don’t really think that the devs intended it to end like this.

Well, from my dungeon running experience, this unity comes in the form of the people you run with. I run with a few people i know all the time, i know what they’re going to do, i know what their next move is – so with this i can push my limits because i know they have my butt covered.

The idea is more rooted by personal skill, movement, and habits rather than builds. Many people not familiar with team sports or combat will not be able to realize this subtle differences, but it is a huge impact on overall performance.

As with diversity, we all would like more and I doubt anyone here would argue that. What mainly annoys us are people who preach that a certain sub-optimal build that’s really low dps is on par or better than the current meta without evidence. This is mainly the source of the friction.

Edit for your edit because of my edit: (lol)
Well for me isn’t that what a soldier ideally is? good at everything.
Where the difference is the utility skills each class brings which are unique – specialization.

Nothing to say.
Just a precision: I am a PUG exclusive user (by choice again, blame me). I was talking about PUGing. Never ever a PUG, whatever the game, will surpass a coordinated team of players that use to play together.
You talk more about playing with the same people over and over. In this case you can talk freely about min/maxing because you are in the ideal configuration.
Still, maybe, if the meta build for dungeons was to put confusion on the boss and run around like a chicken you would feel the sadness I feel when the meta is stack DPS. My favorite toon is a mesmer. I played it at the beginning how I liked. I enjoyed it. I then searched for the meta and played it in meta form. I got bored as hell. It was not what I envisioned for a mesmer. Now I changed again, playing even with conditions as poor as they are in PVE currently, and I am having a blast… except in dungeons where I feel underrated.
80% of my mesmer skills are useless in dungeons as they currently are.