Guild Wars 2

spoj.9672:

I dont think anyone here is against improvements to the game to allow more build diversity. But being against a whole community just because its not at that stage yet is unfair. Theres always a meta and it might seem pretty bland in gw2 at the moment but for min maxers the fun comes from being useful and efficient, build diversity is a minor issue for us. So whatever works the best will be used. If the game changed and a tank was needed we would start using a tank.

However this game was designed not to have specific roles like tank and healer and that really is a great system. No waiting for hours for that 1 troll tank that leaves halfway through the dungeon, no complete sole reliance on one member of each party. Any party works, but not all are optimal. This is a good concept. You just need to accept that the optimal way of playing might not be something you enjoy. That doesnt mean its broken just because its not to your liking.

Yes, I know, I am on a quote fest now, I got bored at work…

Could have agreed 100% with you here. Except for the last sentence. And this is a matter completely subjective, because I could just return you your phrase.

The heck. I am bored so here we go : Because you enjoy it does not mean it is not broken.
As far as I know there are lots of people that enjoy exploiting the dungeon paths. Does not make the exploits less broken.

Edit before the flaming : I do not mean you people here exploit! It was an example of something people might enjoy that is broken!

Some parts are broken. I wont deny that. But to say the whole stacking melee and going full dps is broken is a bit far. Thats what I was getting at.

spoj.9672:

Some parts are broken. I wont deny that. But to say the whole stacking melee and going full dps is broken is a bit far. Thats what I was getting at.

Difficult to think that something that works so well is broken, right?
Yes, I know.

It’s not that full melee dps works that is broken, it is that anything else does not work half as good that is broken.
It is a slight but important difference.

Well not really because thats just risk vs reward. Excluding certain fights which arent very well designed. If you are spreading out and ranging then it makes sense that it doesnt work as well, you dont share buffs as much and you are using safer dps options so it should be less dps and slower. Its fine bar a few fights where its over so quick that there is no challenge even for a bunch of newbies in dps gear. Thats not really an issue with the game though. Thats an issue with many encounters within the game. They are too easy.

BeoErgon.9107:

Needing to time controls, add to the overall DPS or dodge is not exclusive to those sitting on the toes of the mob as much as you would like to believe. Sometimes those at distance need to dodge even more and be proactive.

But no, I don’t want trinity. I want dynamic equal roles among the different specs. That a control/condi/support/distance specced toon becomes a plus and not a minus. Or even better : not a plus, simply an equal than a stacking zerk.

It’s really the use here in this forum to put words in the mouth of people?

What you’re missing, either intentionally or through ignorance, is that those things you’re talking about: buffing, CC etc are all things people do in speed runs and they are largely class specific. Just because everyone is meleeing does not mean that there is no CC role in combat, no buffing happening in combat etc. Nikaido said this already, I am just restating. The only thing I can understand is if you want to do CC or buffing or healing but you don’t want to be in melee combat, which unfortunately, is not this game.

spoj.9672:

Well not really because thats just risk vs reward. Excluding certain fights which arent very well designed. If you are spreading out and ranging then it makes sense that it doesnt work as well, you dont share buffs as much and you are using safer dps options so it should be less dps and slower. Its fine bar a few fights where its over so quick that there is no challenge even for a bunch of newbies in dps gear. Thats not really an issue with the game though. Thats an issue with many encounters within the game. They are too easy.

We agree in something at least
There is an issue with many encounters. I said above that I thought one of the biggest problems was the IA of the bosses. Too binary and too primal.

I have other issues with the game though. But let’s stop. My boss is back.

I want just to thank you for arguing a bit with me during my pause and without any condescending allusions. It’s refreshing in these forums nowadays.

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

BeoErgon.9107:

Needing to time controls, add to the overall DPS or dodge is not exclusive to those sitting on the toes of the mob as much as you would like to believe. Sometimes those at distance need to dodge even more and be proactive.

But no, I don’t want trinity. I want dynamic equal roles among the different specs. That a control/condi/support/distance specced toon becomes a plus and not a minus. Or even better : not a plus, simply an equal than a stacking zerk.

It’s really the use here in this forum to put words in the mouth of people?

What you’re missing, either intentionally or through ignorance, is that those things you’re talking about: buffing, CC etc are all things people do in speed runs and they are largely class specific. Just because everyone is meleeing does not mean that there is no CC role in combat, no buffing happening in combat etc. Nikaido said this already, I am just restating. The only thing I can understand is if you want to do CC or buffing or healing but you don’t want to be in melee combat, which unfortunately, is not this game.

Oops, one last then.

I will tell you what I want : I want my mesmer to be a mesmer, to fool the boss, to make him follow my clones, to make him waste hits on them while bitting him in the kitten , to stop him on his tracks, I want my confusion to last enough for at last one hit of the boss, the heck, make it two!!!…

What I don’t want? Stay on his toes. Doesn’t make sense to me for a mesmer and I don’t like it.

BeoErgon.9107:

Oops, one last then.

I will tell you what I want : I want my mesmer to be a mesmer, to fool the boss, to make him follow my clones, to make him waste hits on them while bitting him in the kitten , to stop him on his tracks, I want my confusion to last enough for at last one hit of the boss, the heck, make it two!!!…

What I don’t want? Stay on his toes. Doesn’t make sense to me for a mesmer and I don’t like it.

They already do though.. just look at how many arrows you have to dodge on the grawl boss when you have a mesmer vs when you don’t. It’s already enough as is. What you’re asking for is to go afk fight by making sure the boss wouldn’t hit you at all as long as you have clones, which, very fortunately, doesn’t happen, you still have to be careful, but having clones does let you take more rest than not having them.

Look at Sanderinoa’s solo of the archdiviner with his mesmer :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVHRanhbbiI

Don’t tell me the clones didn’t do anything for the fight. He played mesmer the way it was meant to be played and god he’s making it look beautiful.

I think both sides in this discussion (the general one, not just latest posts) have good points, and some people are generalising the other side way too much. It’s wrong to just assume that speed clearer=exploiter=toxic person. Likewise it’s also shortsighted to just assume that those who are not too fond of the current DPS-heavy meta are those that join your carefully prescribed LFG groups and go “I play how I want”. That said:

Lately I have been running dungeons a bit more, and while I am starting to play quite DPS heavy myself, I don’t feel I have the experience needed to join those zerker teams as of yet so I only join generic LFG’s. Anyway, I am currently shifting toward the DPS meta, but like BeoErgon I believe it would be good for the sake of variety that some (existing or new) dungeon paths/bosses would favor a different balance of aspects of gw2 combat than nearly full damage with some damage boons, a little damage prevention if required and a pushback/pull to get foes into the favored stack corner.

This does not mean, like Nike seems to believe, that people need to simply stand back and spam heal/support/control. Timing these abilities right and providing other functionality while they are not needed seems like a very active playstyle to me. Like mentioned just a bit higher (again by Nike), this already exists to an extent in the current meta for support(reflects, projectile absorbs etc), I just feel that it should be elaborated upon to give viability to more builds in high end PVE.

I also believe stacking is a bit overpowered. Like spoj said, it is risk vs reward, but now I run dungeons more I feel that it’s the best tactic for far too many encounters (boss and otherwise). It is not just that the risk is not always big enough, I feel the reward as opposed to spreading out (melee or ranged) is too big as well. I think it is fine that you get increased damage in melee and bunch enemies up by stacking, but do you not feel sharing boons/aoe heals is too difficult in this game when you choose to fight battles in a mobile way, except for a limited amount of builds (shouts and banners come to mind)? Having more encounters that punish excessive stacking, and making sharing boons easier could mix things up a bit.

The “problem” with this game is you can still be all the necessary support/control/heals without giving up all of your dps. Seems like a feature rather than a flaw to me. The problem with Nemesis’s guardian dps build is he give ups all support for dps when he doesn’t need to, and he chooses an inferior play-style to justify it. If you aren’t going to be in the stack or providing support, might as well max range the fights, right?

His necro video’s aren’t as big a deal, other than the hybrid build being a trap (expensive to build towards and not that good). Its not like necros are a serious dungeon running classes. To many critical flaws in the concept (though it does work fine in other game modes). Condition focused class ideal when conditions don’t work due to game design. Doesn’t provide the preferred direct damage boons. Combo fields provided are in low demand for the above reasons. They can provide good enough dps to bring to most groups without problems, they just have a hard time doing much else except in niche cases.

Also stacking isn’t as easy as some people make it seem. Enemies have an easier time hitting, and many individual targeting skills go from massive damage to instant down if the proper techniques aren’t used. In the stack a mistake is fatal for an entire party sometimes (like messing up reflect in SE P1 for noob level mistakes). In some cases a stack can be carried by a skilled individual, like a guardian using WoR and aegis correctly while the group burned down the enemy before those critical skills run out. Even then this requires more skill than ranging the enemy with 1&2 and occasionally popping utilities (or worse, keeping signets on passive).

BeoErgon.9107:

More and more in the lfg we find demands for zerk/scholar warriors and gear ping. You are as free as you want to claim this. After all it is the most effective combination.

But it should not.

Your post is one massive contradiction.

What you are saying is that you don’t like the zerker meta, and other people shouldn’t like it either. They are not free to play how they want, they should be playing how you want.

You then go on to point out that the majority of groups are sadly becoming LF4M ZERKER.
Well did you stop and think that actually what this means is that the majority of people have realised zerker is ftw, ARE playing how they want, and are voting with their feet by organizing zerker groups.

If indeed casual, ‘fun’, poorly built style builds and groups are becoming rarer, “proper” dungeon clears are rarer, and full zerker + trash skips are becoming more popular… I think you will find that it is because a lot of other people are indeed playing how they want.. It just doesnt match how you want to play.

Coffee pause. Here we go.

@ Nikaido
Will watch the video later, thanks for the link.
And stop saying what I did not say, please. Oh… put out clones and go afk? Come on! A clone should be more like an opportune aegis or a dodge, fooling the boss into not hitting me of course. But… news for everyone, a clone does not do any damage. Did you forget the part I talked about ‘bitting his kitten ’ wile he was turned around?
How it is that negating all the distance shots of a boss with my focus or spell is nice, but negating it with a clone is ‘afk’ lazy behavior? You are kind of biased here, no?

@fadeaway
I am starting to feel that not being english is seriously a handicap here. Where the hell did I say people had no right to play zerk? I said I did not want to be ‘forced’ to play zerk melee to be efficient.
And for the rest your nonsense. Are people playing META zerk because they like it? Or because other playstyles are so seriously broken and they have little choice if they don’t want to feel like clowns? Think about it.

Your problem is you keep saying “playstyles are so seriously broken” as if that was an established fact. There is nothing inherently, or obviously, broken about it. At very worst the topic is highly debatable and controversial, but you treat it as a fact and you make conclusions derived from it being a fact. Please understand that we don’t disagree with you because we don’t share the same language or because either party is less intelligent: we disagree because your premise is faulty to begin with since you base it on a “fact” that isn’t a fact at all.

@Nike
Well, that for sure is for debate.
I maybe make a quick assumption by thinking useless skill => broken skill, but the result is the same.
As long as other playstiles only hinder the efficiency of a team it means they are useless and broken. That a cleric means less survival because more dps = less damage just shows how this is broken. That two condition users overstep each other is broken. That confusion never lasts enough to be significant is broken. That pets are a hindrance most of the time is broken.

Now, you can claim that it is working fine. If you think so I can do nothing. We don’t agree, that is all.

PS : Oh, and I have lots of problems, not only that one

Are people playing META zerk because they like it? Or because other playstyles are so seriously broken and they have little choice if they don’t want to feel like clowns?

This is a question that I had, that was answered a few months ago by the speed clear community (or someone in it – I don’t remember who it was), but the gist was, if something like bleeds had no cap and ramped quickly, conditions/epidemic would likely be the meta.

One of the main disconnects that occurs in all arguments like this, is the fact that optimization and ‘play how you want’ are not mutually exclusive. Sure, it can suck when a majority of LFG posts are searching for the most efficient team and you want to run your favorite condition build, but meta is meta. I recently shelved my Necro, who I ran as Rampager hybrid through most content, who I learned most of my builds from Nemesis on, knowing that I wasn’t being the most efficient, but playing to have fun with a group of people who weren’t strictly searching for optimal builds.

Now that I want to get into content that requires coordination, I’ve been learning to play DPS on my Guardian. I’ll say it again, if you want to play with the build you want, fine, go for it. It’s more about who you play with and what your team’s goals are than the build you are using. It’s the reason we are able to switch traits on the fly, the reason we are able to switch weapons and skills on the fly.

For a long time I’ve advocated for build diversity as well, but real fact is that it doesn’t matter what you bring into most PvE content. You’ll get it done. It may not be the fastest run time, or the most might stacks, but if you’re using the builds you want, and having fun, then why should you compare your efficiency to that of another group, regardless of what they are running?

This goes for both sides of the argument. Everyone, groups of elite players and casuals alike, are playing how they want. Do they have to be agreeable? Of course not. Will they get through content that they want to complete? Every time.

I agree with the above notion. Both sides are playing how they want to play. If you don’t want them, don’t join them. There are plenty of players on both sides to lfg with.

Gnat.9405:

This goes for both sides of the argument. Everyone, groups of elite players and casuals alike, are playing how they want. Do they have to be agreeable? Of course not. Will they get through content that they want to complete? Every time.

This is a good point. The problem arises when you have a player, like TapDatMouse, who posts OTT things like “THIS BUILD WILL REVOLUTIONIZE PVE GUARDIANS AND IS THE BEST BUILD EVER” and clearly he is wrong, and he is told he is wrong. That friction can lead to arguments if the person making the ridiculous OTT claims tries to actually defend his or her absurdity.

TDM had the good sense to not argue and just said, “hey if you dont like it, its cool.” and that was pretty much the end of it. Nemesis and his fanboys try to actually defend the stuff, and it just gets ugly because informed people generally won’t tolerate willful ignorance.

Is it me Nemesis’s fanboy? Never heard of him before this topic.
Hope you are not talking about me.

@Gnat.
Come on, don’t go making so round conclusive posts. Spoils my fun and I was bored at work.

BeoErgon.9107:

I was bored at work.

Aren’t we all…. Aren’t we all….

That’s fair, and I think a majority of the conflict occurs when players don’t (or won’t) differentiate between being told that their build is not as effective as they think it is/want it to be, and being told that they can’t run their build ever under any circumstances.

@BeoErgon lol sorry. These threads pop up so often and I’m interested to see the title of this thread is Necro, because I dropped so much time into my Necro and have recently given up on it because of how useless I feel. These arguments go on forever because there are two different games being played when it comes to build optimization.

On another note, I found this:

PvE: Are there any plans to make condition builds more viable in PvE?
”Yes you should see some creatures targeted around weakness to condition in some of the early builds next year.” ~Isaiah Cartwright

Don’t worry,
my workday just finished.

I know I don’t see the game like some others, and specially like the majority of the Dungeons subforum. But I like arguments and discussions and this subforum seems like a neat place for a “play how you want” player like me to find guys to ‘talk to’ when I am bored at work.

Truth to be told I am surprised and pleased that the conversation lasted so long without falling under the usual forum insults.

But well, let’s pack and go home.

A last little question for the gurus of this subforum : would you really mind if other play styles were as efficient as melee DPS? Do you like playing the META whatever it is or you really really like playing melee DPS?

Pure curiosity.
Bye.

They probably wont be weak enough to conditions to make you take a condi class though. Either that or it will be one short fight out of a longer instance so it wont be worth taking. We can hope though.

BeoErgon.9107:

Don’t worry,
my workday just finished.

I know I don’t see the game like some others, and specially like the majority of the Dungeons subforum. But I like arguments and discussions and this subforum seems like a neat place for a “play how you want” player like me to find guys to ‘talk to’ when I am bored at work.

Truth to be told I am surprised and pleased that the conversation lasted so long without falling under the usual forum insults.

But well, let’s pack and go home.

A last little question for the gurus of this subforum : would you really mind if other play styles were as efficient as melee DPS? Do you like playing the META whatever it is or you really really like playing melee DPS?

Pure curiosity.
Bye.

You can see why you got a good polite arguement cant you? It was because you were objective and polite yourself and didnt resort to the old “blah blah exploiters…” and so on. We are all too happy to discuss these things when people are respectful.

But when people start presenting their opinions as 100% fact and throw accusations it gets out of hand. Kind of like what nemesis did earlier on in the thread. I resisted but I dont blame the others from replying to him in the way they did.

And to answer your question. I like being efficient and I like dealing damage (Big numbers!). I really enjoy playing melee in challenging encounters. And some fights I dont mind ranging (solo molten duo). Aslong as the encounter is fun I can enjoy it either way. The problem is most encounters are too easy and not fun when you range. The most fun I have in melee are fights like risen priest of melandru solo because you cant stay melee, you have to duck in and out and be constantly mobile. But full ranging him is too easy and boring compared to how much fun and unforgiving he is in melee.

So in a way this current meta suits me fine because it appeals to my want to be efficient, the fact that i like to melee stuff for greater challenge and my desire to see big numbers. Just a shame there arent many encounters which are challenging enough in melee.

I agree, it sounds like a implementation just to keep us quiet a bit longer, although that’s an unfair assumption given we have zero information.

I just hope that whatever they implement, or begin to implement, they do so in a way that makes conditions more attractive without lessening the appeal of current builds. I want to play a game where everything is efficient as long as the player is good.

Ok. I’ll remember the account name of the OP just incase he ever hot joins one of my groups I’ll instantly kick. I don’t want to play with that type of person… I PLAY HOW I WANT and WITH WHO I WANT… And I’ll do it drunk too.

And jesus… Why would you want to run a dungeon 1000 times and run each one as inefficiently as possible? That just sounds like utter torture and I’m not even hardcore. I just want loot. So, to get loot as much as possible as fast as possible that means I have to play to the meta and dps as much as possible as fast as possible and everyone else in my party needs to as well. If they don’t like it they can GTF0 of my party.

thefantasticg.3984:

Ok. I’ll remember the account name of the OP just incase he ever hot joins one of my groups I’ll instantly kick. I don’t want to play with that type of person… I PLAY HOW I WANT and WITH WHO I WANT… And I’ll do it drunk too.

And jesus… Why would you want to run a dungeon 1000 times and run each one as inefficiently as possible? That just sounds like utter torture and I’m not even hardcore. I just want loot. So, to get loot as much as possible as fast as possible that means I have to play to the meta and dps as much as possible as fast as possible and everyone else in my party needs to as well. If they don’t like it they can GTF0 of my party.

I love Katana and it would be an honor to play with him. Hehe. Guess I don’t know why you agree with the sentiment of playing the meta but do not agree with the OP…

thefantasticg.3984:

Ok. I’ll remember the account name of the OP just incase he ever hot joins one of my groups I’ll instantly kick. I don’t want to play with that type of person… I PLAY HOW I WANT and WITH WHO I WANT… And I’ll do it drunk too.

And jesus… Why would you want to run a dungeon 1000 times and run each one as inefficiently as possible? That just sounds like utter torture and I’m not even hardcore. I just want loot. So, to get loot as much as possible as fast as possible that means I have to play to the meta and dps as much as possible as fast as possible and everyone else in my party needs to as well. If they don’t like it they can GTF0 of my party.

Oo
The OP came asking if the build was good.

You are a bit too quick to kick, don’t you think? It’s me the “Play how you want” guy. My main is Katheleen if you want more information.

But as long as you put the right info in lfg no risk I end in your party.

And to answer you, I don’t play for tokens, I play to pass some time, have fun, get a kick with my toon by playing it to my beliefs.

PS : no pun intended with the ‘get a kick’

BeoErgon.9107:

And as Nemesis said, I don’t really think that the devs intended it to end like this.

I’m not so sure about that. A while ago I came to the conclusions that (A) The Devs intended DPS to be king in PvE (B) They intended PvE to be easy © The devs intended WvW to be PvE end-game because it transitions players from PvE into PvP and they wanted PvP to be an E-Sport (we all know how that went… *rolls eyes)

I agree with all Nemesis’ points too though. I don’t think stacking was intended, and the way the game is currently designed kills diversity.

Nemesis.8593:

PS: If it were up to some of you, the game would go into the ground in less then 1 month.

Some might say the game IS going into the ground.

Finnway.2183:

I agree with all Nemesis’ points too though. I don’t think stacking was intended, and the way the game is currently designed kills diversity.

How’s that? Every class in the game except necro is viable in pve. There is plenty of diversity.

Unless you mean diversity of ways to kill bosses, but until you can heal them to death unfortunately melee will be the superior way to kill them.

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

Finnway.2183:

I agree with all Nemesis’ points too though. I don’t think stacking was intended, and the way the game is currently designed kills diversity.

How’s that? Every class in the game except necro is viable in pve. There is plenty of diversity.

Unless you mean diversity of ways to kill bosses, but until you can heal them to death unfortunately melee will be the superior way to kill them.

I would love to see an “overheal” boss. Make it like the balloon water thing at carnivals. Watch him fill up on health till he pops.

@Nike.
I was referring to builds rather than classes. No matter what build I try I always go back to the meta because it is more effective.

When you have basically one role (doing damage, since there’s no trinity anymore), it’s quite difficult to come up with more than one build that can be considered “optimal”. Though in three of the four classes I play regularly, there is still quite some diversity even inside the meta.

Well I’m not gonna lie. I don’t find the mechanics behind LOS’ing mobs to a corner any challenging.

Wouldn’t you guys rather that they improved the mobs AI to provide a bit more difficulty?

Lilith Ajit.6173:

I love Katana and it would be an honor to play with him. Hehe. Guess I don’t know why you agree with the sentiment of playing the meta but do not agree with the OP…

Hey Lilith, let’s play one of these days heh?

thefantasticg.3984:

Ok. I’ll remember the account name of the OP just incase he ever hot joins one of my groups I’ll instantly kick. I don’t want to play with that type of person… I PLAY HOW I WANT and WITH WHO I WANT… And I’ll do it drunk too.

And jesus… Why would you want to run a dungeon 1000 times and run each one as inefficiently as possible? That just sounds like utter torture and I’m not even hardcore. I just want loot. So, to get loot as much as possible as fast as possible that means I have to play to the meta and dps as much as possible as fast as possible and everyone else in my party needs to as well. If they don’t like it they can GTF0 of my party.

What the hell did I just read?
You seem like a very edgy person, no wonder you get drunk often. Read patiently before dishing out on people that don’t care about you at all.
I’m neither hating nor loving the build. I was simply, kindly asking about the effectiveness of the build since I was curious myself and I always thought Scholar was the way to go on any class. Apparently I was not mistaken.

Remember my account name and please, do kick me if I happen to join your party, I wouldn’t want to carry a guy like you anyways. The worst kind of tryhards are bad tryhards.

Finnway.2183:

@Nike.
I was referring to builds rather than classes. No matter what build I try I always go back to the meta because it is more effective.

Isn’t that the idea of a meta build :>?

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

Isn’t that the idea of a meta build :>?

A meta can include more than one play-style. For the Guardian at least the only real difference in playstyle right now is whether you use Sword/Focus, a Greatsword, or a Hammer. It would be nice if every viable build didn’t go 20 in Virtues and 15 in Radiance, and you didn’t always have two reflects on your bar. Get the picture?
I’m not asking them to kill the current meta build or nerf it to hell. I just wish the game encompassed more play-styles like they promised in their manifesto. But it doesn’t, and I think that’s intentional because they want PvP to be the ultimate end-game, and PvE and WvW to be the “training wheels” for PvP.

Finnway.2183:

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

Isn’t that the idea of a meta build :>?

A meta can include more than one play-style. For the Guardian at least the only real difference in playstyle right now is whether you use Sword/Focus, a Greatsword, or a Hammer. It would be nice if every viable build didn’t go 20 in Virtues and 15 in Radiance, and you didn’t always have two reflects on your bar. Get the picture?
I’m not asking them to kill the current meta build or nerf it to hell. I just wish the game encompassed more play-styles like they promised in their manifesto. But it doesn’t, and I think that’s intentional because they want PvP to be the ultimate end-game, and PvE and WvW to be the “training wheels” for PvP.

I was mostly just referencing how you said “I keep returning to the meta build because it’s more effective”. In hindsight, taking that comment without all of the quoted context was probably a poor decision.

Yeah, I probably should have expanded on that post a little more. By meta I mean the all inclusive 5-6 builds the Guardian has. My beef with this is that all of these go 10 in Zeal, 15 in Radiance and at least 10 in Virtues (usually 20), and even though I try different ones of these builds it all feels arbitrary because it’s essentially the same.

I wish that when I hopped in a PUG and played with another Guardian that our builds and playstyle were more different from each other than “I use a Sword. He uses a Hammer.” As it stands the only real difference between two Guardians is when one of them is using a bad build.

I think I got what you mean but… just sayin’… you should be kitten grateful that there are 3-4 good builds for guardian, a couple of viable trait setups for mesmer and a few good trait/weapon combos for elementalists and THANK QUETZALCOATL not all of them have that stupid, boring LH attached to them. I swear, if it weren’t for Zelyhn and his fresh air dagger build or the I-don’t-remember-who-theorycrafted-it staff build, I would’ve deleted my stoopid ele; couldn’t stand spamming LH one second longer. I do equip it often, I just can’t endure using it 24/7.
Back on track: you can’t, nobody can hate lack of flexibility more than I do, believe me, but what can you do? I can’t really play with a terrible build and know I’m gimping my team; still, I can make the best of my circumstances and find a “meta” (I despise this term) or still good enough build that suits my needs: both the need of playing efficiently and the need of playing a build I like and helps my team. I therefore enjoy myself. <— especially if I can help my team.
I’m thankful for that, and I’ll be even more thankful when anet finally graces us with more good, viable skills and traits.
In short. There is difference. Maybe it’s just a detail, having or not having mantras over buffed phantasms, having a hammer over a greatsword, having or not having LH. It can mean all the difference in the world. For uh… me. Maybe for someone else too.

The current design and gameplay philosophy of dungeons (and wvw to an exceedingly high extend as well) is what made me lose interest in the game. Granted, I am not usually an mmo gamer who seeks out the highest end content, but I do want to engange in encounters that are both challenging and interesting. And I don’t feel like I have the opportunity to do that in Guild Wars 2. It is not like opportunities aren’t built into the game, but there’s usually one or two playstyles that the community accepts, because they are the most efficient ones. That fact alone is not the problem. It is quite common in any multiplayer game to stick to the tactics that work best.

However, in Guild Wars 2 especially, there is much more potential variety than in most other games, that is left unutilized. The build system in the game is beatuiful and really supports the player’s own creativity. The thing is, that many different builds for each class could be effective, if the community wouldn’t focus solely on tactics, that are clearly not intended in a game that promoted build diversity as much as Guild Wars 2. Look at how the spider boss in AC is done these days. An entire room full of fire projectiles is completely ignored in the process. The fight boils down to stacking in the corner and watch clustered up effects of a battle that runs almost automatically. It’s just not fun to play. Look at the amount of changes they did to CoF during the first two months of the game, because there was just so much stuff that didn’t work as intended. I bet ArenaNet is still not satisfied with the way things are, but of course that’s up to debate.

So to summarize, there are three issues with the current meta: 1. It undermines an incredible amount of otherwise beautifully working builds, and therefore the core philosophy behind the game. 2. It exposes design flaws, resulting in a gameplay experience, that’s clearly not intended by the developers. 3. It’s no fun.

Now of course fun is subjective. Stacking up in corners or just running around in giant balls of plate armor in WvW while mutually agreeing on taking SM castle back and forth from each other is not fun in my opinion, but it may very well be to other gamers. I’m not even trying to convict the community for what it’s doing, because, like I said, it’s only natural to approach a challenge from the most efficient approach. I am going to point the finger however, and that is in ArenaNet’s direction.

I don’t feel entirely comfortable doing this, because clearly developers can’t have an easy time designing a game as big as this, and clearly pointing the finger towards the creators of a game is all too often done too quickly in my opinion. Here however, I do think that it is warranted. While many people may not have a problem with how the game is being played right now, ArenaNet must be noticing the amounts of players that don’t appreciate the way things are. So why not change them? Like Nemesis has pointed out, there are probably (notice my use of the word “probably” here, because every change in design could potentially lead to unforseen consequences) a couple of relatively easy changes that can be made in order to increase the variety in builds and playstyles. Many people would find renewed interest in the game, and the happy user base of the current meta would just hop on to the next best thing, that hopefully wouldn’t be that much better than the alternatives and wouldn’t hurt the underlying design philosophy of the game as much.

I am convinced that ArenaNeta is at least aware of the problem. Whether or not they are going to do something about it remains to be seen. I don’t expect changes to be made quickly however, because meddling with balance or the design of intended gameplay is a delicate matter. It’s going to take some time, which is why I won’t be jumping ship just yet, even though I quite frankly don’t enjoy the game the way it is right now. We should all just try to raise our opinions and concerns as loud and as constructive as possible at this point.

Quickfoot Katana.8642:

You seem like a very edgy person, no wonder you get drunk often.

Nope. I run dungeons drunk to increase the difficulty level in a way you can’t in game

The level of hypocrisy in this thread is rising constantly.
Who are you to judge wether a certain type of playstyle was intended in that way or not?
For example: You do not have to stack for the spider in ac to make her not use her aoe, you just have to stay close to her. You wouldn’t know that unless someone told you, howeverthese “tips” (=mobs only use certain attacks if someone is in melee range/if someone is further away, both scenarios exsist a lot, calling someone an “bug abuser” for beeing not melee/not range is kind of stupid, isn’t it?) like these get ignored, just telling players “hey stack here and wait for the spider to come”, since it tends to work most of the time people use it, without even knowing why they do it in the first place.
Regarding build variety: A lot of people seem to be unable to understand that there will always be a “most optimal” or “best” build for a certain scenario. While other builds may exsist and work out aswell in terms of beating the scenario, one (and exactly one) will do it “better” then the others.
The flaw that supportive builds don’t work particularly well does not lie in berserker beeing too effective, bosses beeing killed to fast or bugs beeing exploited, it lies in the fact that dedicated healers were not planed to exsist in guild wars 2, therefore the content was designed in a way healers/“prot-ters” were not mandatory. Along these lines buffs, like regeneration for example, is made way to weak to really make a difference in dungeons, the amount of healed aswell as the amount of damage dealt by bosses just does not fit.
The fact that there is a cap to bleed which can be reached by a single person and is easily reached by a group, due to minor traits and the missing split between pve and pvp make condition builds fall short to direct damage builds in most of all scenarios (unless facing very high thoughness enemies, which, due to the removal of very high level fotm, do not exsist anymore). The problem is in core game mechanics. Conditions would need a massive rework in terms of how they get applied and in terms of their damage in order to make them “truly viable” in dungeons.
Regarding the Nemesis video: I can not belive that he actually lowered himself to these methods. The video in itself is geared towards polarizing people. By saying “I could tell my viewers to harass those players, but I don’t” or “don’t get involved there” he is doing the exact opposite. This is called reverse psychology. IF he truly would not bother with this, he could simply ignore the whole forum discussion. His viewer base on youtube is large enough. Relating to the Lich King exploit: Arena net actually fixes real “exploits” when you send them to them. The bouqet of roses did not even take one day after the video was sent in. What makes an exploit remains to be their decision and not the decision of some youtuber or forum poster, period (and I’m not just looking towards nemesis’s statements here).

As this topic offers no more basis for a constructive or friendly discussion, it is now closed.