Guild Wars 2

Necro is so weak that they dont even bother with making benchmark for him.

#Feelsbadman

I lol’ed when I read that, they didn’t even bother

The funniest thing is when you see these youtube videos in which someone gets 25 – 30k dps on the golem with a necro. Only to find they’re running full unrealistic buffs.

Lahmia.2193:

The funniest thing is when you see these youtube videos in which someone gets 25 – 30k dps on the golem with a necro. Only to find they’re running full unrealistic buffs.

Barely matters for Condi Necro in its current iteration tbh. Realistic boons is like 1k-1.5k lower than Unrealistic.

The actual sad thing is that Necro has been in that same state since launch, and hilariously enough anyone could have called the uninspired changes in the last patch: “reduced the CD of wells”.

In a few more years wells won’t even have CDs anymore.

Yeah it’s really sad, they should probably just buff Spiteful Talisman from +5% to +15% and make the increased condition duration from Lingering Curse apply to all skills while wielding a Scepter. Let’s see where that puts us in the DPS-rankings.

there are so many basic things anet can do to every profession to make them +10000000% better, but continue to sit on their kitten. sometimes I actually hope that this game will just die so anet can move on and hopefully make something better.

While I understand where they’re coming from with necro still deemed useless to them, they’re both doing the community a favor, (looking at you fotm pug necros), but also the hardcore necro mains a huge disservice.

Lugi is probably the only one in qT that can actually play necro, but I guess he’s an engi main at heart, at least one of the few that can play the class well. So I wouldn’t expect anything to change while Engi and Condi Ranger is still the highest benchmark. And to add insult to injury they even reference Brazil as a reliable source for anything. But I digress…

What people need to understand is that even if necro did the same dps as Engi, Ele or Condi Ranger, it would still be deemed useless due to the lack of party utility. The truth is that class balance has never been better or as even, dpswise, as it is now with this balance patch. Fact is that qT dislikes Necro as a class, like most of the hardcore community.

Does that mean the class is actually useless?
No.

Does it mean that if you take a Necro as a dps spot you will add minutes to your raid boss kill?
No.

Is Necro the most optimal pick when you want to shave off a few seconds on that record attempt?
No. (Situationally maybe).

But the question that really matters, and ultimately decides Necros fate yet again;
will the average pug Necro perform comparably to the average pug Condi Ranger?
Probably not.

I won’t argue with you demoria but fact is that the necromancer is stuck to the same old issue : They add no usefull support in PvE and especially in group content.

This simple statement is what held back the necromancer. Fun fact is that the engineer that can fart boons like crazy gain even more usefull support through a trait while the necromancer is still forced onto it’s slow design with barely any support at all. As for condi ranger… it’s sad but even they have more room than a necromancer to fart support to a party (like providing fire and poison field, spirits or traits). If you want to cover any possibility to lack might, fury, regen, swiftness r even protection it will always be safer to take a ranger instead of a necromancer.

However, there is still one good thing in this patch, that is that Anet finally gave us some leeway to unleash some condi burst while in reaper (restricted to PvE). The fact that they tacitally acknowledge that it was needed is like a gleem of hope that they are aware of our issues.

in rT we lately play with 2 necros in squad and we have no problem clearing all wings and even CM bosses. the dps isn’t optimal but not detrimental. just take a necro who is a pro and executes the new condi gs rotation properly. don’t discriminate classes in lfg, it hurts the game, you’re not going for world records in lfg

Here you go, ~32k with realistic buffs and 5 stacks of thorns in optimal conditions:
https://youtu.be/KGbHsmaiE4I

isn’t golem better? if you tried, how much of a difference did it make?
ps. you can cast gs 5 followed immediately by 4 to shorten the casting time of 5
+ for golem i would still use cpc as some bosses don’t have adds

Can’t recall the exact number off the top of my head, I think golem was ~1-2k lower or so.

Will try it with gs 5→4 and Cloud as well.

still turrets aggro their closest target so with adds you might lose dps

Cloud and golem 0 thorn stacks: http://imgur.com/a/yGfVv
Can probably go a bit higher with practice, the rotation isn’t flawless, might have to drop dagger 5 below 50% to make up for having to cast cpc with the 2nd Gravedigger.

Demoria.6745:

Cloud and golem 0 thorn stacks: http://imgur.com/a/yGfVv
Can probably go a bit higher with practice, the rotation isn’t flawless, might have to drop dagger 5 below 50% to make up for having to cast cpc with the 2nd Gravedigger.

what sigils are u using?

Agony and Geomancy, all gear is the same as Farb used in his test: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vRAQNArYRjM0QXNWdDe3A7NWKGs4eYRMJGFAGAJAqhwU4WB-TBSAQBMc/BspkzmKBDo+gOcKAAwTAIkKHio6PBAOAGv4Bw4jP+4jPejP+4jP+4lCYRlVA-e

Demoria.6745:

Agony and Geomancy, all gear is the same as Farb used in his test: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vRAQNArYRjM0QXNWdDe3A7NWKGs4eYRMJGFAGAJAqhwU4WB-TBSAQBMc/BspkzmKBDo+gOcKAAwTAIkKHio6PBAOAGv4Bw4jP+4jPejP+4jP+4lCYRlVA-e

if you already had 100% bleed duration what would u put in place of agony? I’m using hydromancy atm (with the bleed trait too ofc), is geomancy better?

My redesign is simple.

What is the theme of Necromancer? Weaken enemys.

What should a Necromancer bring the group? Boon remove and weaken enemys with vulnerability so the full dps classes deal more dmg. Necros got a high surviavability so the dont need the highest dps. But increase others dps with 25 stacks vulnerability fits to their playstyle and makes them a must have if the other classes get less access to vulnerability.

Necromancers 25 stacks vulnerability like ps are needed for 25 stacks might. Simple change high impact.

On the bright side, months of complaints about the greatsword and the Deathly Chill over-nerf were heard.

I just hope the new elite line addresses sub-par group utility.

IronPhoenix.2045:

My redesign is simple.

What is the theme of Necromancer? Weaken enemys.

What should a Necromancer bring the group? Boon remove and weaken enemys with vulnerability so the full dps classes deal more dmg. Necros got a high surviavability so the dont need the highest dps. But increase others dps with 25 stacks vulnerability fits to their playstyle and makes them a must have if the other classes get less access to vulnerability.

Necromancers 25 stacks vulnerability like ps are needed for 25 stacks might. Simple change high impact.

You realise that virtually every profession can stack vulnerability, and necro is far from being the best at that? Your idea makes no sense.

IronPhoenix.2045:

My redesign is simple.

What is the theme of Necromancer? Weaken enemys.

What should a Necromancer bring the group? Boon remove and weaken enemys with vulnerability so the full dps classes deal more dmg. Necros got a high surviavability so the dont need the highest dps. But increase others dps with 25 stacks vulnerability fits to their playstyle and makes them a must have if the other classes get less access to vulnerability.

Necromancers 25 stacks vulnerability like ps are needed for 25 stacks might. Simple change high impact.

The necromancer can already do it guy… it’s just that all other profession can also do it on top of adding more real support to the party. vuln is probably the easiest condition to fart across all professions.

The only thing that could be expected would be a possibility for the necromancer to break the 25 stacks wall with a trait that would create a new unique debuff when you try to put vulnerability on a target that have already 25 vuln. Well… thought that might be a good idea…

Dadnir.5038:

The only thing that could be expected would be a possibility for the necromancer to break the 25 stacks wall with a trait that would create a new unique debuff when you try to put vulnerability on a target that have already 25 vuln. Well… thought that might be a good idea…

We share the same thought.

I hope they add a 3sec pulsing condi to rending shroud that double vulnerability effect instead of pulseing vulnerability.

Demoria.6745:

Here you go, ~32k with realistic buffs and 5 stacks of thorns in optimal conditions:
https://youtu.be/KGbHsmaiE4I

Take Root isn’t used in any of [qT]‘s benchmarks because it’s hyper OP for a racial skill and isn’t available to everyone. That alone accounts for a fair bit of your DPS. I also take issue with the new build/rotation that drops Blood Magic, as the utility provided by Transfusion and Vampiric Presence help a lot to justify using a Necromancer over anything else.

Realistically, the new rotation I think relies too heavily on ice fields, especially since they’ll be teamed with condi Warriors / Rangers / Engis that drop other fields rapidly. This is probably the biggest reason why necro is still so unfortunately weak in raids.

Rising Dusk.2408:

Realistically, the new rotation I think relies too heavily on ice fields, especially since they’ll be teamed with condi Warriors / Rangers / Engis that drop other fields rapidly. This is probably the biggest reason why necro is still so unfortunately weak in raids.

you still deal more damage doing the new rotation even with bad field combos, than with the old scepter camping. if you want to do blood magic however, just stick with scepter. dps loss not worth it tbh, better to find ppl who dont die

Vitali.5039:

Dadnir.5038:

The only thing that could be expected would be a possibility for the necromancer to break the 25 stacks wall with a trait that would create a new unique debuff when you try to put vulnerability on a target that have already 25 vuln. Well… thought that might be a good idea…

We share the same thought.

I hope they add a 3sec pulsing condi to rending shroud that double vulnerability effect instead of pulseing vulnerability.

I was more thinking of a debuff that have the same properties than vulnerability but with a cap number at 5 stacks. (for balance)

A trait like :
Putrefactor: when you apply a new stack of vulnerability on a foe that have already 25 vuln stack you apply 1 stack of putrified for 5 second. ICD 1 second.

Putrefied : increase damage and condition damage by 1%. Stack in intensity. maximum 5 stacks.

This would allow a unique up to 5% damage buff on the necromancer. This way to do it fit the necromancer’s design and the limit only make this debuff strong in open PvE where hundred of people hit the same target. It would be balanced for raid, for fractal, for PvP and the only area where it could be bothersome would be on wvw doors. One shouldn’t be able to cleanse this debuff (like you can’t corrupt alacrity), no condi duration improvement.

The joke would be to replace parasitic contagion with putrefactor. This would create some competition in the curse traitline and a lot of player would complain that this trait ruin their dps build. Yup I feel that would be an awesome move! chosing between a barely ok support build or a barely ok dps build… So much fun!

Spamming ice fields whenever the skills are off cool down can be a problem when other professions are counting on being first, or only, down with another field.

I do not see how solo dps can be accurate if fields play a significant role. After all, only Necromancer can make much use of ice, anyway. Waiting for a field everyone can use for dps seems better. In group play, avoiding using an ice field might be better dps.

Rising Dusk.2408:

Take Root isn’t used in any of [qT]’s benchmarks…

Yes, it is.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJsQEojjBNQ&t=127s

Rising Dusk.2408:

..because it’s hyper OP for a racial skill and isn’t available to everyone. That alone accounts for a fair bit of your DPS.

Anyone can make a sylvari whenever they want, I personally made a sylvari ranger to use just for condi during wing 4 challenge mode progression.

And “a fair bit” is ~5% over Flesh Golem, if there’s only a single target.

Rising Dusk.2408:

I also take issue with the new build/rotation that drops Blood Magic, as the utility provided by Transfusion and Vampiric Presence help a lot to justify using a Necromancer over anything else.

Neither of those things are justifications to bring a necromancer.

Rising Dusk.2408:

Realistically, the new rotation I think relies too heavily on ice fields, especially since they’ll be teamed with condi Warriors / Rangers / Engis that drop other fields rapidly. This is probably the biggest reason why necro is still so unfortunately weak in raids.

This I agree on to some extent.

Since there isn’t a reliable way to test this, yet, and it would require far more math than I’m willing to do, I’m just going to wait until there is a reliable parser and test this in the actual raids.

Making Combo Finishers prioritize your own Combo Fields first would solve the issue with depending on certain Combo Fields for many classes, including the Necromancer.
It would make it a lot easier to use Combo Fields as you intend, instead of the often random effect you get now when you often don’t know what your Finisher will produce.
The priority would be: “Your own Field”>"Oldest existing Field (like now)"
What do you think of that?

Demoria.6745:

Since there isn’t a reliable way to test this, yet, and it would require far more math than I’m willing to do, I’m just going to wait until there is a reliable parser and test this in the actual raids.

i usually have ~5k lower dmg than engi and ~1-2k more than condi warriors, but that can differ dramatically depending if boons got bad or there are fails. if i manage to bounce epi from saul twice before he dies, my dps hops into 32-34k

Not had a chance to try it with everyone in the raid using bgdm so far, and ARC doesn’t seem very accurate. Hopefully these things will improve over the next couple of months, and maybe one day we’ll have the omniscience of worldoflogs.

Demoria.6745:

Yes, it is.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJsQEojjBNQ&t=127s

Regardless of what they record (note, they also still record unrealistic in some cases), they are only reporting benchmarks in their tables that are both with realistic buffs and without racial skills.

Demoria.6745:

And “a fair bit” is ~5% over Flesh Golem, if there’s only a single target.

5% is pretty substantial in my book.

Demoria.6745:

Neither of those things are justifications to bring a necromancer.

Nothing is sufficient justification to bring a necromancer right now, but the utility of Blood Magic is at least better than being objectively worse than other DPS classes in all appreciable ways. That isn’t to say that some of their features won’t make things easier for less skilled groups.

Okaaaay, so we got new benchmark from Farbstoff ( 30.5 with realistic ) and i think is decent! Today i have made VG, Gorse and entire w4 with my viper necro and we didint have any trouble with dps. So maybe its time to qT update their roster and set us in the top bottom :p

Orku.1546:

Okaaaay, so we got new benchmark from Farbstoff ( 30.5 with realistic ) and i think is decent!

• 30.5 realistic is assuming you have no other combo fields other than ice.
• His 28k “in a fire field” test was done with unrealistic buffs and not as much other field uptime as you get in a real raid.
• No consideration was made for the major DPS loss associated with light/ethereal/poison fields in real raids.

Orku.1546:

Today i have made VG, Gorse and entire w4 with my viper necro and we didint have any trouble with dps.

I do this very nearly every week with my guild both pre- and post-patch and you can beat any boss with a Necromancer or two no problem. The problem isn’t beating the bosses with a Necromancer; that has always been totally doable. The problem is that a Necromancer realistically doesn’t even begin to compete with other classes.

Rising Dusk.2408:

…
The problem is that a Necromancer realistically doesn’t even begin to compete with other classes.

Given that condi groups are being more common in the form of ranger, engineer and ps condi warrior, fire fields aren’t exactly uncommon.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/4vivo3/calculating_the_value_of_epidemic/

Burn and poison stacks are more likely to be at 25 with condi teams. Double necro means torment is not at zero. Let’s not guess though
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_EHmPpoRKA
That’s ~50-100 burn stacks. 40-75 poison stacks. So epi is hitting harder than discussed back then but let’s just call it 7k for each necro.

With condi engi at an unlikely (given the skill required) 34k dps being the number to beat, Necro only needs to get to 27k pre epi.

And then Sublimatio hits 32-34k on an actual boss when using epi.

Problem is not that Necro can’t compete. It’s that epi makes it a two or nothing if you want “competitive” instead of just viable dps.

DuckDuckBOOM.4097:

Problem is not that Necro can’t compete. It’s that epi makes it a two or nothing if you want “competitive” instead of just viable dps.

It also means that one of your Necromancers has lower DPS while the one bouncing hits near-Engi-levels. Times this can be avoided are only if you have multiple targets for your other condi classes to cleave, then you can solo-bounce (Sabetha/Deimos). I also really don’t think normal mode Deimos is a great test of practical DPS because Unnatural Signet skews that heavily.

DuckDuckBOOM.4097:

And then Sublimatio hits 32-34k on an actual boss when using epi.

Context: this was Deimos cm after returning with black saul. I use epi twice to bounce to Deimos and then Saul dies. This only creates this big dps for just few moments, as you no longer have target to epi bounce from. I’m also at 0 condi infusions, and some people noticed it’s better to take extra viper gear and malice sigil which I’m not sure of yet, but on paper seems reasonable. I would also like to mention that using haunt (shadow fiend) on cd and Suffer! on cd (+ autoattacking) produced almost the same dps (minion little more), but during the rotation you spawn blinding fields and it overlaps with Haunt, which means Suffer will be best. However, CPC is considerably more dps than spamming suffer or haunt (tested on thorn runes). Everything should be used with your own judgment of course, so for condi transfer scenarios suffer will be optimal, like matthias (alongside with plague signet).

Rising Dusk.2408:

DuckDuckBOOM.4097:

Problem is not that Necro can’t compete. It’s that epi makes it a two or nothing if you want “competitive” instead of just viable dps.

It also means that one of your Necromancers has lower DPS while the one bouncing hits near-Engi-levels. Times this can be avoided are only if you have multiple targets for your other condi classes to cleave, then you can solo-bounce (Sabetha/Deimos). I also really don’t think normal mode Deimos is a great test of practical DPS because Unnatural Signet skews that heavily.

From the reddit link, it’s 14.8k DPS for 1 necro. The 7.4k is just splitting the difference between 2 necros. That math doesn’t include the engineer aura nor gotl stacks. So it’s probably closer to 17k split two ways. Add 5 more burn/poison stacks shared and it’s maybe 18-20k in ideal conditions which are all met in that 8-1-1 video I posted. However what’s not met is the realistic numbers for ranger/engineer. Sabetha is the “ideal” boss for condi engineer and ranger and yet that’s 4 condi rangers and a condi engineer hitting 18-24k DPS before the first cannon is up. Replace two rangers with two reapers and those epis should be hitting 16k (low balling it again even though I’m pretty sure it’ll be higher) and that’s an 8k split boost to what? Do you really think a decent reaper won’t be hitting 16k pre epi casts on Sabetha? I see solo reapers in my casual guild’s training run hitting 16k without epi. It’s not that one Necro hits almost engineer levels. It’s that one should blow way past all the other condi classes and it averages out to decent for both.

Ty for the context Sublimato. I realize it’s not ideal on that fight but could you run a group DPS meter when running double reaper bouncing epi for a few fights? I’m just not convinced Necro condi dps is as bad as people claim once epi is factored in. I know it’s not ideal for every fight but neither are most of the top DPS classes.

Rising Dusk.2408:

Orku.1546:

Today i have made VG, Gorse and entire w4 with my viper necro and we didint have any trouble with dps.

I do this very nearly every week with my guild both pre- and post-patch and you can beat any boss with a Necromancer or two no problem. The problem isn’t beating the bosses with a Necromancer; that has always been totally doable. The problem is that a Necromancer realistically doesn’t even begin to compete with other classes.

That’s it: it’s not unable to complete the content, it’s that it’s maybe not as good, or as convenient, as other options.

This leads to people saying roughly that, which leads to people leading pugs hearing “necromancer is useless”, which leads to them being excluded from things, reinforcing the belief that “you couldn’t possibly complete a raid with a necromancer!”

So, yeah, it’d be nice if perception was different, and if the class brought more utility to the table. It’s not new that having one in raid is … y’know, just fine.

DuckDuckBOOM.4097:

Sabetha is the “ideal” boss for condi engineer and ranger and yet that’s 4 condi rangers and a condi engineer hitting 18-24k DPS

I agree with everything else you said, but I wanted to comment on this. I can easily hit 30k+ with a non-tryhard rotation and a few mess-ups at Sabetha with either condi Engi or Ranger. That is really the bar that you need to be hitting to compete with those classes, and it needs to happen without reliance on ice fields.

I think we’re just going to have to agree to disagree then. I don’t think the realistic average skill level is 30k dps.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2WmYjFRsCM&spfreload=1
I’m not seeing any of the 3 DPS people from qT going above 25k here at Deimos. All of them are being affected by Saul’s signet. I know it’s a daily run but still. If a Sublimato can hit 32k even with certain mechanics in play, that’s a big deal.

Anet MUST give necros either party support or superior damage to other classes.

Or at least let freezing effects affects raid bosses, so we are needed for that debuff.

Aesa.4819:

Making Combo Finishers prioritize your own Combo Fields first would solve the issue with depending on certain Combo Fields for many classes, including the Necromancer.
It would make it a lot easier to use Combo Fields as you intend, instead of the often random effect you get now when you often don’t know what your Finisher will produce.
The priority would be: “Your own Field”>“Oldest existing Field (like now)”
What do you think of that?

I want this so much. This new rotation relies too much on your own selfish fields and putting an ice field before a Condi PS can place his fire field kittens up his dps. A fire field can still be used by a necro, but a condi PS cannot use an ice field at all.

This would not only benefit the necro, but also Condi PS and druids with blasting their water fields reliably. Everybody would benefit from this. Let’s hope Anet changes this the next balance patch in 8-10 months.

In the leather farm with a couple of other casuals, I had time to reflect on Necromancer’’s fields and the combo’s they set up for my allies.

They have little or no value.

Dark – Most Wells and Nightfall drops a dark field, which can proc lifesteal, which is under-powered because it “heals” or a blinds, which all bosses (and pretty much everyone else) ignores.
Light – Well of Blood and Ritual of Life (WoB when healing downed) can only proc a condition cleanse or light aura. Who needs this field in a group?
Poison – CpC and Chillblains drop this field. Too bad bosses do not care about poison because they can ignore its minuscule dps and either do not heal or suffer when trying to heal.
Etherial – This can only happen with Spectral Wall. Seriously, Necromancer can proc confusion but only with this one skill.
Ice – Executioner’s Scythe is the only ice field Necro has. Unfortunately, finishers just chill for everyone else, which, again, does nothing to bosses if Reapers do not sit and spin.

Compare that to other professions.
Fire – Adds dps through might and burning
Water – Heals much better than dark’s leaching
Lightning – Gives swiftness
Smoke – Gives stealth

Looking at it this way, Necromancer has all of the fields that are unpopular none of the fields that are desired. Subtract the skills with undesired fields and the profession is crippled. It was clearly designed to lay down combo fields but none of them are in demand.

I think Arenanet should look at the potency and usefulness of the fields, themselves and try re-balancing them.

Anchoku.8142:

In the leather farm with a couple of other casuals, I had time to reflect on Necromancer’’s fields and the combo’s they set up for my allies.

They have little or no value.

Dark – Most Wells and Nightfall drops a dark field, which can proc lifesteal, which is under-powered because it “heals” or a blinds, which all bosses (and pretty much everyone else) ignores.
Light – Well of Blood and Ritual of Life (WoB when healing downed) can only proc a condition cleanse or light aura. Who needs this field in a group?
Poison – CpC and Chillblains drop this field. Too bad bosses do not care about poison because they can ignore its minuscule dps and either do not heal or suffer when trying to heal.
Etherial – This can only happen with Spectral Wall. Seriously, Necromancer can proc confusion but only with this one skill.
Ice – Executioner’s Scythe is the only ice field Necro has. Unfortunately, finishers just chill for everyone else, which, again, does nothing to bosses if Reapers do not sit and spin.

Compare that to other professions.
Fire – Adds dps through might and burning
Water – Heals much better than dark’s leaching
Lightning – Gives swiftness
Smoke – Gives stealth

Looking at it this way, Necromancer has all of the fields that are unpopular none of the fields that are desired. Subtract the skills with undesired fields and the profession is crippled. It was clearly designed to lay down combo fields but none of them are in demand.

I think Arenanet should look at the potency and usefulness of the fields, themselves and try re-balancing them.

You’re thinking from a pve perspective though.
Dark: In wvw I used rs #4 inside one of these and healed from about 10% health to full (combined with vampiric/vamp aura). All while inside shroud.
Light: Blasting for aoe condi removal is incredibly useful with the current meta in wvw. Sure its not going to stop an epi bomb, but will help stop the build up of conditions that lead to an epi bomb.
Poison: Say bye bye to 33% of the enemies healing.
Ethereal: Okay you got me on this one. But its just the one skill that is now dead because of the 10 man cap.
Ice: Chill is a kitten whether you’re a necro or not. 66% movement reduction and skill cooldown increase. Frost Aura gives 10% damage reduction and chills foes that hit you. On a necro though, stacking up to 40 bleeds (with the right traits and sigils) on a target with rs #4 and 5 is useful in any game mode.

Oh, I agree with you about WvW and PvP where we face other players. Dark and poison fields are as useful but that does not mean they, and other low PvE popularity fields cannot be improved in group support. The defiance bar and very high boss health skew combination fields toward group buffs, utility, and burning.

Why is burning so powerful, anyway, and why are Darkness and Ice separate from bleeds? There should be a bleed field, right? Burning, poison, and confusion have fields that proc conditions directly. It seems like bleed and torment could proc on fields.

I just think combo fields could use some balancing independent of professions.

Consider this example of one, little change and how it would affect three game modes: projectile finishers in dark fields now bleed the target instead of blind. Whirls still leach. Blasts and leaps still blind.

PvP – no real change in performance
WvW – other professions may think about their projectile skills a bit more, maybe.
PvE – Necromancer dark fields become less undesirable because they stop decreasing dps as much.

That is just one small adjustment.

Ice: Chill is a kitten whether you’re a necro or not. 66% movement reduction and skill cooldown increase.

Yet when you suggest to an elementalist that it could be usefull for them to use some chill against their foes in PvP they say that it’s a useless condition and they rather have less of this.

On topic, to be competitive in PvE group content the necromancer still need it’s share of group utility. It’s actual tools are all underwhelming and easily covered by other professions. It was necromancer’s issue before and the issue is still here 4.5 year after release.

If anet really want the necromancer to support it’s teammate through the use of debilitating conditions, they have to build unique mechanism in the necromancer that actually benefit the team from taking a necromancer with it.

I understand that epidemic is strong but that’s no utility. Epidemic is a dps skill that become stronger the more condition on a foe. That’s all.

Want the necromancer to stick to it’s design and become a competitive profession in pve group content? Just make it so a necromancer can break throught the 25 vuln stacks by a maximum of 5 more vuln stacks. The calcul is easy, with a necromancer you reduce the foe defense by 30% while without it will only be 25%. Thus, the necromancer don’t step out of it’s narrow boundaries and there is no need for many necromancers, yet having one benefit the party. This change little to nothing in PvP and in WvW. In open PvE, it only make the huge health tank die a few seconds faster. The impact on the game is minimal, yet the necromancer start to be though for instead of being taken out of pity.

When i did some testings with almost full vipers and malice i hit 30k with realistic buff without the 150 buff from engi. The reason i prefer this over thorns or with agony sigil is simply u often have other fields. So still hitting the same dps or doin even a little more while losing less on other combofields is the reason here. I might do a vid of it once i figured out what the best util is on that one to use and found an engi to do so.

Patrick.2987:

When i did some testings with almost full vipers and malice i hit 30k with realistic buff without the 150 buff from engi. The reason i prefer this over thorns or with agony sigil is simply u often have other fields. So still hitting the same dps or doin even a little more while losing less on other combofields is the reason here. I might do a vid of it once i figured out what the best util is on that one to use and found an engi to do so.

Which sinister ones did u use?