Guild Wars 2

You are the second idi… person to say this. I’ve already replied to your kind once and I can’t be bothered to come up with something significantly different to say, so I’ll say the exact same thing again:

My hatred of these kinds of arguments knows no bounds. Let me boil this mentality down to its bare essence:

“Just deal with the fact that your build was severely crippled without warning.”

Unacceptable. Many people — not just me — are using a Reaper Shroud build because they enjoy it and have invested a significant amount of time into acquiring gear and learning how to play the spec.

Bear in mind that this is a spec that isn’t considered to be the most powerful way to play a Necromancer. The damage output is decidedly worse than a condition build and it offers almost nothing in the way of group utility. On top of all of that, Necromancer as a class is performing worse than almost every other class in the game in terms of damage and utility.

And it’s not like this is a recent problem! The issues with Necromancers are well-known and have been discussed to death. If they were concerned about these two very necessary traits not affecting Sand Shroud they could have literally just buffed them by adding in the new effects (Swiftness on Speed of Shadows and Vitality on Vital Persistence) without changing anything else and it STILL wouldn’t have fixed the core issues that the Necromancer class faces.

I can’t speak for anyone else, but I enjoyed the Reaper Shroud build because of the visual effects and mobility. In reality it’s mostly an auto-attack spec that doesn’t even have access to utility skills most of the time.

So yes, I can “adapt”, but there is no good reason that I should have to. This was a scorched earth approach to addressing a problem that didn’t actually exist. The “solution” was not only lazy, it feels terrible.

And to top it off, there was no warning! So now I’m stuck with gear for a build that doesn’t work anymore, and my choices are to either go with a Greatsword power build that is even LESS effective than the already underperforming build that I was using yesterday or scramble to put together a set of condition gear.

I can’t even begin to describe how terrible that feels.

Small update for modern times:

No, a 25% reduction in Lifeforce decay will not account for the loss of the 50% reduction in decay and 7s cooldown. There is still no reason to take the Soul Reaping traitline now and the Reaper Shroud builds are still suffering under heavy-handed nerfs.

Tiresias.6473:

You are the second idi… person to say this. I’ve already replied to your kind once and I can’t be bothered to come up with something significantly different to say, so I’ll say the exact same thing again:

My hatred of these kinds of arguments knows no bounds. Let me boil this mentality down to its bare essence:

“Just deal with the fact that your build was severely crippled without warning.”

Unacceptable. Many people — not just me — are using a Reaper Shroud build because they enjoy it and have invested a significant amount of time into acquiring gear and learning how to play the spec.

Bear in mind that this is a spec that isn’t considered to be the most powerful way to play a Necromancer. The damage output is decidedly worse than a condition build and it offers almost nothing in the way of group utility. On top of all of that, Necromancer as a class is performing worse than almost every other class in the game in terms of damage and utility.

And it’s not like this is a recent problem! The issues with Necromancers are well-known and have been discussed to death. If they were concerned about these two very necessary traits not affecting Sand Shroud they could have literally just buffed them by adding in the new effects (Swiftness on Speed of Shadows and Vitality on Vital Persistence) without changing anything else and it STILL wouldn’t have fixed the core issues that the Necromancer class faces.

I can’t speak for anyone else, but I enjoyed the Reaper Shroud build because of the visual effects and mobility. In reality it’s mostly an auto-attack spec that doesn’t even have access to utility skills most of the time.

So yes, I can “adapt”, but there is no good reason that I should have to. This was a scorched earth approach to addressing a problem that didn’t actually exist. The “solution” was not only lazy, it feels terrible.

And to top it off, there was no warning! So now I’m stuck with gear for a build that doesn’t work anymore, and my choices are to either go with a Greatsword power build that is even LESS effective than the already underperforming build that I was using yesterday or scramble to put together a set of condition gear.

I can’t even begin to describe how terrible that feels.

Small update for modern times:

No, a 25% reduction in Lifeforce decay will not account for the loss of the 50% reduction in decay and 7s cooldown. There is still no reason to take the Soul Reaping traitline now and the Reaper Shroud builds are still suffering under heavy-handed nerfs.

Learning how to play the spec? pressing F1 then wailing on 1 is hard? For some reason people who play power reapers exclusively seem to be on some high horse thinking condi is easier to play. I have both sets of gear btw. And since you are talking about collecting gear Ill have to assume you’re talking PVE. Condi rotations are definitely harder to play to reach optimal DPS. and this is PVE we’re talking about, where things die left right and center, you have no NEED for actual life force management. YOu can be wailing on 3 things with RS1, getting 6% back in 2.37 seconds.

Most of you people crying about VP haven’t even done the maths or actually considered in a realistic scenario. You have people like DeceiverX saying shroud runs out in 10 seconds on a full bar, with no damage taken. No. No it doesn’t. If you get focused in pvp, VP won’t save you. If you’re kittening about the duration loss from VP then you’re camping shroud. its as simple as that.

Ramoth.9064:

Learning how to play the spec? pressing F1 then wailing on 1 is hard? For some reason people who play power reapers exclusively seem to be on some high horse thinking condi is easier to play. I have both sets of gear btw. And since you are talking about collecting gear Ill have to assume you’re talking PVE. Condi rotations are definitely harder to play to reach optimal DPS. and this is PVE we’re talking about, where things die left right and center, you have no NEED for actual life force management. YOu can be wailing on 3 things with RS1, getting 6% back in 2.37 seconds.

Most of you people crying about VP haven’t even done the maths or actually considered in a realistic scenario. You have people like DeceiverX saying shroud runs out in 10 seconds on a full bar, with no damage taken. No. No it doesn’t. If you get focused in pvp, VP won’t save you. If you’re kittening about the duration loss from VP then you’re camping shroud. its as simple as that.

That’s an awful lot of projection, assumptions, and strawman arguments to pack into a single post. Even your lead argument (“For some reason people who play power reapers exclusively seem to be on some high horse thinking condi is easier to play.”) is some wild speculation that I never even hinted towards at any time in any post that I’ve ever made on these forums… ever.

What, exactly, is wrong with you? Can’t stand for people to play the game in a manner that is different from your own? Don’t like to see other people have nice things? Believe that it’s your way or the highway?

I mean, Reaper Shroud is a build that received ZERO attention, despite all its flaws and middling damage, until it was heavily nerfed two days ago. I struggled to find even a single recent thread about it.

Then the spec take a MASSIVE hit directly to the broadside and people like you come out of the woodwork with half-baked “opinions” about all this stuff that isn’t even relevant. Seriously — Lifeforce management? Reaper Shroud doesn’t manage Lifeforce in PvE; the very purpose of the build is to spend as much time in Shroud as possible and as little time out of it as manageable, beyond perhaps firing off utility skills.

Of course, you likely don’t know that because you’ve never really played the build. In other words, you’re just talking out your cornhole.

Tiresias.6473:

I mean, Reaper Shroud is a build that received ZERO attention, despite all its flaws and middling damage, until it was heavily nerfed two days ago. I struggled to find even a single recent thread about it.

I don’t understand why ANet should stress about keeping a build that isn’t very good intact.

The VP change was fairly trivial. The only real nerfs of note was Speed of Shadows and Signets of Suffering.

Although I do get some of the frustration particularly from a sPvP perspective where necromancers have completely fallen out of the meta and are generally a handicap for most comps compared to other options. However this was just as true prepatch as it was postpatch.

Tiresias.6473:

Ramoth.9064:

Learning how to play the spec? pressing F1 then wailing on 1 is hard? For some reason people who play power reapers exclusively seem to be on some high horse thinking condi is easier to play. I have both sets of gear btw. And since you are talking about collecting gear Ill have to assume you’re talking PVE. Condi rotations are definitely harder to play to reach optimal DPS. and this is PVE we’re talking about, where things die left right and center, you have no NEED for actual life force management. YOu can be wailing on 3 things with RS1, getting 6% back in 2.37 seconds.

Most of you people crying about VP haven’t even done the maths or actually considered in a realistic scenario. You have people like DeceiverX saying shroud runs out in 10 seconds on a full bar, with no damage taken. No. No it doesn’t. If you get focused in pvp, VP won’t save you. If you’re kittening about the duration loss from VP then you’re camping shroud. its as simple as that.

That’s an awful lot of projection, assumptions, and strawman arguments to pack into a single post. Even your lead argument (“For some reason people who play power reapers exclusively seem to be on some high horse thinking condi is easier to play.”) is some wild speculation that I never even hinted towards at any time in any post that I’ve ever made on these forums… ever.

What, exactly, is wrong with you? Can’t stand for people to play the game in a manner that is different from your own? Don’t like to see other people have nice things? Believe that it’s your way or the highway?

I mean, Reaper Shroud is a build that received ZERO attention, despite all its flaws and middling damage, until it was heavily nerfed two days ago. I struggled to find even a single recent thread about it.

Then the spec take a MASSIVE hit directly to the broadside and people like you come out of the woodwork with half-baked “opinions” about all this stuff that isn’t even relevant. Seriously — Lifeforce management? Reaper Shroud doesn’t manage Lifeforce in PvE; the very purpose of the build is to spend as much time in Shroud as possible and as little time out of it as manageable, beyond perhaps firing off utility skills.

Of course, you likely don’t know that because you’ve never really played the build. In other words, you’re just talking out your cornhole.

You are the embodiment of everything you’ve just said about me. What did you say in my other thread, that I don’t know anything and I’m that guy? I have the maths and the evidence to back up my claims, so far the only person who is screaming my way or the highway is YOU.

It’s not like the nerfs only happened to you, and not me. I have a full ascended power spec which i jokingly made as valkyrie, so yes, I do play a power reaper, and its not hard. You don’t have to learn how to play a spec where you just press F1 and autoattack. There is no reason why in the 10 seconds you leave shroud, you can’t recharge a full lifeforce bar in PvE.

Sarrs.4831:

Tiresias.6473:

I mean, Reaper Shroud is a build that received ZERO attention, despite all its flaws and middling damage, until it was heavily nerfed two days ago. I struggled to find even a single recent thread about it.

I don’t understand why ANet should stress about keeping a build that isn’t very good intact.

THIS. Camping shroud does less DPS than dagger auto iirc. People are deluding themselves that you should be staying in shroud for as long as possible aside from the fact that it is aesthetically pleasing. Practicality wise its a stupid crutch.

Ramoth.9064:

Sarrs.4831:

Tiresias.6473:

I mean, Reaper Shroud is a build that received ZERO attention, despite all its flaws and middling damage, until it was heavily nerfed two days ago. I struggled to find even a single recent thread about it.

I don’t understand why ANet should stress about keeping a build that isn’t very good intact.

THIS. Camping shroud does less DPS than dagger auto iirc. People are deluding themselves that you should be staying in shroud for as long as possible aside from the fact that it is aesthetically pleasing. Practicality wise its a stupid crutch.

Hey, that’s a FANTASTIC POINT about the damage being low. Lower than Dagger auto-attack even.

Since the changes were made to promote, in ArenaNet’s own words, “Build diversity”, I think they should put some time and attention into Reaper Shroud — you know: the big, shiny, new attraction for Heart of Thorns — to make the Shroud-focused build competitive with other power builds.

In the name of Build diversity, of course.

Then it would be more than just aesthetically pleasing; it would be yet another diverse build that Necromancers could use in all aspects of the game. No more delusions, no more low damage, more diversity!

Fantastic suggestion, guys. Brilliant!

Tiresias.6473:

Hey, that’s a FANTASTIC POINT about the damage being low. Lower than Dagger auto-attack even.

Since the changes were made to promote, in ArenaNet’s own words, “Build diversity”, I think they should put some time and attention into Reaper Shroud — you know: the big, shiny, new attraction for Heart of Thorns — to make the Shroud-focused build competitive with other power builds.

In the name of Build diversity, of course.

Then it would be more than just aesthetically pleasing; it would be yet another diverse build that Necromancers could use in all aspects of the game. No more delusions, no more low damage, more diversity!

Fantastic suggestion, guys. Brilliant!

?

It has nothing to do with build diversity.
It has to do with bad play.
You are playing badly.

I get that you’re trying to be funny/ironic but you’re just completely off base.

Tiresias.6473:

Ramoth.9064:

Sarrs.4831:

Tiresias.6473:

I mean, Reaper Shroud is a build that received ZERO attention, despite all its flaws and middling damage, until it was heavily nerfed two days ago. I struggled to find even a single recent thread about it.

I don’t understand why ANet should stress about keeping a build that isn’t very good intact.

THIS. Camping shroud does less DPS than dagger auto iirc. People are deluding themselves that you should be staying in shroud for as long as possible aside from the fact that it is aesthetically pleasing. Practicality wise its a stupid crutch.

Hey, that’s a FANTASTIC POINT about the damage being low. Lower than Dagger auto-attack even.

Since the changes were made to promote, in ArenaNet’s own words, “Build diversity”, I think they should put some time and attention into Reaper Shroud — you know: the big, shiny, new attraction for Heart of Thorns — to make the Shroud-focused build competitive with other power builds.

In the name of Build diversity, of course.

Then it would be more than just aesthetically pleasing; it would be yet another diverse build that Necromancers could use in all aspects of the game. No more delusions, no more low damage, more diversity!

Fantastic suggestion, guys. Brilliant!

So if I wanted to run a condition build while using axe, Arenanet should be making that happen for the sake of build diversity?

Necros that say “just adapt” is why we are in this situation 5years later…

hey man, i get that you’re mad about the vital persistence change but in all honesty necro has never been about staying in shroud forever. it’s always been about jumping in for what you need and then jumping out again

sure it’s fun to sit there as long as possible in shroud and kitten around but you’re best off using shroud to its fullest potential. a huge mistake i see a lot of newer necros make is fully exhausting shroud making themselves significantly vulnerable. im not saying that you’re new, but is it not better to try to reduce confusion for new players by limiting a build that essentially encourages you to go against the inherent design of the class itself?

Ramoth.9064:

Tiresias.6473:

Ramoth.9064:

Sarrs.4831:

Tiresias.6473:

I mean, Reaper Shroud is a build that received ZERO attention, despite all its flaws and middling damage, until it was heavily nerfed two days ago. I struggled to find even a single recent thread about it.

I don’t understand why ANet should stress about keeping a build that isn’t very good intact.

THIS. Camping shroud does less DPS than dagger auto iirc. People are deluding themselves that you should be staying in shroud for as long as possible aside from the fact that it is aesthetically pleasing. Practicality wise its a stupid crutch.

Hey, that’s a FANTASTIC POINT about the damage being low. Lower than Dagger auto-attack even.

Since the changes were made to promote, in ArenaNet’s own words, “Build diversity”, I think they should put some time and attention into Reaper Shroud — you know: the big, shiny, new attraction for Heart of Thorns — to make the Shroud-focused build competitive with other power builds.

In the name of Build diversity, of course.

Then it would be more than just aesthetically pleasing; it would be yet another diverse build that Necromancers could use in all aspects of the game. No more delusions, no more low damage, more diversity!

Fantastic suggestion, guys. Brilliant!

So if I wanted to run a condition build while using axe, Arenanet should be making that happen for the sake of build diversity?

Check out the WvW necro zerg build. It uses cele stats and axe whilst running condi corrupts.

Reknarok.7582:

hey man, i get that you’re mad about the vital persistence change but in all honesty necro has never been about staying in shroud forever. it’s always been about jumping in for what you need and then jumping out again

sure it’s fun to sit there as long as possible in shroud and kitten around but you’re best off using shroud to its fullest potential. a huge mistake i see a lot of newer necros make is fully exhausting shroud making themselves significantly vulnerable. im not saying that you’re new, but is it not better to try to reduce confusion for new players by limiting a build that essentially encourages you to go against the inherent design of the class itself?

Using shroud as shield is basic power reaper gameplay. The whole mechanic is designed around it as power reaper has tons of LF generation for a reason so you are able to refill your whole shroudbar in under 10 seconds.

You are doing it wrong if you shroudflash as a power reaper! You are wasting tons of LF gain.

Some math:
Let’s talk about a shroud uptime of 10 seconds (cast time for shroud2 gap closer, shroud5, shroud4 and a few auto chains to get some use out of Blighter’s Boon – that’s it, nothing special, no camping at all!)

Now let’s think about the potencial direct damage (!) shield lost through shroud degen.

marauder gear: 20K shroud:
2% degen = 20% shroud lost = 4K shroud @ 50% dmg mitigation = 8000 HP lost
3% degen = 30% shroud lost = 6K shroud @ 50% dmg mitigation = 12000 HP lost
4% degen = 40% shroud lost = 8K shroud @ 50% dmg mitigation = 16000 HP lost

You can tank 8K more burst damage with a 2% degen compared to 4% and 4K compared to 3%. This is significant and noticeable!

It has nothing to do with shroud camping!

Ramoth.9064:

Sarrs.4831:

Tiresias.6473:

I mean, Reaper Shroud is a build that received ZERO attention, despite all its flaws and middling damage, until it was heavily nerfed two days ago. I struggled to find even a single recent thread about it.

I don’t understand why ANet should stress about keeping a build that isn’t very good intact.

THIS. Camping shroud does less DPS than dagger auto iirc. People are deluding themselves that you should be staying in shroud for as long as possible aside from the fact that it is aesthetically pleasing. Practicality wise its a stupid crutch.

For just DPS, yes. For PvP purposes, “camping” RS was border-line necessary.

The thing is the build wasn’t weak. It was extremely fair and balanced and had the capacity to perform well. It just wasn’t overpowered to be deemed worthy of most optimized play for PvE or facerolly enough for WvW like its condi variant.

Edit: As mentioned below, the VP adjustment still massively cuts durability more than people recognize as well.

KrHome.1920:

Using shroud as shield is basic power reaper gameplay. The whole mechanic is designed around it as power reaper has tons of LF generation for a reason so you are able to refill your whole shroudbar in under 10 seconds.

You are doing it wrong if you shroudflash as a power reaper! You are wasting tons of LF gain.

Some math:
Let’s talk about a shroud uptime of 10 seconds (cast time for shroud2 gap closer, shroud5, shroud4 and a few auto chains to get some use out of Blighter’s Boon – that’s it, nothing special, no camping at all!)

Now let’s think about the potencial direct damage (!) shield lost through shroud degen.

marauder gear: 20K shroud:
2% degen = 20% shroud lost = 4K shroud @ 50% dmg mitigation = 8000 HP lost
3% degen = 30% shroud lost = 6K shroud @ 50% dmg mitigation = 12000 HP lost
4% degen = 40% shroud lost = 8K shroud @ 50% dmg mitigation = 16000 HP lost

You can tank 8K more burst damage with a 2% degen compared to 4% and 4K compared to 3%. This is significant and noticeable!

It has nothing to do with shroud camping!

This is exactly what most people don’t understand. I’m so fed up with the general, just adapt and learn to play attitude, it helps no one. The fact is this particular build has suffered greatly since the first set of nerfs after HoT launched and it hasn’t gained any real ground in all that time when ever other class has seen some attempts to fix them.
What is absolutely insane is that i can pull videos and interviews from Anet prior to HoT that clearly describe the rational of using shroud with this GS power build in just this way and yet we constantly see so called experts coming here telling everyone they don’t have a clue, it’s laughable.

To the OP, you hit the nail on the head for me, i play this build because i love playing it and I have spent well over a year building Twilight, and ascended Valk gear specifically to play this build the way it was intended to play then had it just yanked out from under me with no discussions or plans to fix it. I can also go back and yank their own videos saying that none of the current elites were going to be rendered obsolete, heck i can pull info regarding not rendering gear obsolete like other games just look at the official PoF introduction video from last Tuesday.

If there are plans to fix this going forward after PoF launches great but it should be communicated up front so those who enjoy playing the very thing that sold us on the last expansion aren’t left out in the cold.

KrHome.1920:

Using shroud as shield is basic power reaper gameplay. The whole mechanic is designed around it as power reaper has tons of LF generation for a reason so you are able to refill your whole shroudbar in under 10 seconds.

You are doing it wrong if you shroudflash as a power reaper! You are wasting tons of LF gain.

Some math:
Let’s talk about a shroud uptime of 10 seconds (cast time for shroud2 gap closer, shroud5, shroud4 and a few auto chains to get some use out of Blighter’s Boon – that’s it, nothing special, no camping at all!)

Now let’s think about the potencial direct damage (!) shield lost through shroud degen.

marauder gear: 20K shroud:
2% degen = 20% shroud lost = 4K shroud @ 50% dmg mitigation = 8000 HP lost
3% degen = 30% shroud lost = 6K shroud @ 50% dmg mitigation = 12000 HP lost
4% degen = 40% shroud lost = 8K shroud @ 50% dmg mitigation = 16000 HP lost

You can tank 8K more burst damage with a 2% degen compared to 4% and 4K compared to 3%. This is significant and noticeable!

It has nothing to do with shroud camping!

im not saying that using shroud to soak damage is wrong, but from what i was getting from the op was that he was basically entering on CD and then staying in shroud until he completely exhausted it. i don’t shroud flash, i shroud, use what i need and then exit. if what i need is to soak damage then ill stay in longer, and yeah it does suck losing vital persistence, i used it in pretty much every build that involved soul reaping. but i was specifically talking about shroud camping as a build, sorry if you misunderstood me.

what im saying is that, yeah it sucks, but i don’t think it’s as big of a deal as op is making it out to be, that’s all

Necro still garbage 5 years later. Kek. This is funny to come back see how far in the kittenter this class is every year. God, pre-purchasing this game was such a waste 4 years ago.

Lahmia.2193:

Ramoth.9064:

Tiresias.6473:

Ramoth.9064:

Sarrs.4831:

Tiresias.6473:

I mean, Reaper Shroud is a build that received ZERO attention, despite all its flaws and middling damage, until it was heavily nerfed two days ago. I struggled to find even a single recent thread about it.

I don’t understand why ANet should stress about keeping a build that isn’t very good intact.

THIS. Camping shroud does less DPS than dagger auto iirc. People are deluding themselves that you should be staying in shroud for as long as possible aside from the fact that it is aesthetically pleasing. Practicality wise its a stupid crutch.

Hey, that’s a FANTASTIC POINT about the damage being low. Lower than Dagger auto-attack even.

Since the changes were made to promote, in ArenaNet’s own words, “Build diversity”, I think they should put some time and attention into Reaper Shroud — you know: the big, shiny, new attraction for Heart of Thorns — to make the Shroud-focused build competitive with other power builds.

In the name of Build diversity, of course.

Then it would be more than just aesthetically pleasing; it would be yet another diverse build that Necromancers could use in all aspects of the game. No more delusions, no more low damage, more diversity!

Fantastic suggestion, guys. Brilliant!

So if I wanted to run a condition build while using axe, Arenanet should be making that happen for the sake of build diversity?

Check out the WvW necro zerg build. It uses cele stats and axe whilst running condi corrupts.

Then its as much a power build as it is condi, it just happens to corrupt.

Ramoth.9064:

Lahmia.2193:

Ramoth.9064:

Tiresias.6473:

Ramoth.9064:

Sarrs.4831:

Tiresias.6473:

I mean, Reaper Shroud is a build that received ZERO attention, despite all its flaws and middling damage, until it was heavily nerfed two days ago. I struggled to find even a single recent thread about it.

I don’t understand why ANet should stress about keeping a build that isn’t very good intact.

THIS. Camping shroud does less DPS than dagger auto iirc. People are deluding themselves that you should be staying in shroud for as long as possible aside from the fact that it is aesthetically pleasing. Practicality wise its a stupid crutch.

Hey, that’s a FANTASTIC POINT about the damage being low. Lower than Dagger auto-attack even.

Since the changes were made to promote, in ArenaNet’s own words, “Build diversity”, I think they should put some time and attention into Reaper Shroud — you know: the big, shiny, new attraction for Heart of Thorns — to make the Shroud-focused build competitive with other power builds.

In the name of Build diversity, of course.

Then it would be more than just aesthetically pleasing; it would be yet another diverse build that Necromancers could use in all aspects of the game. No more delusions, no more low damage, more diversity!

Fantastic suggestion, guys. Brilliant!

So if I wanted to run a condition build while using axe, Arenanet should be making that happen for the sake of build diversity?

Check out the WvW necro zerg build. It uses cele stats and axe whilst running condi corrupts.

Then its as much a power build as it is condi, it just happens to corrupt.

It is a hybrid yes. But that doesn’t mean it doesn’t use condi and axe which is what you were looking for, yes?