Guild Wars 2

So as all we know it is supposed to be hard to get away from necro and it is true cause we have nice chills and some cripple, the problem i encountered today was to chase down warrior, we have 1200 range chill but i could`nt apply it cause warrior was all the time out of range thanks to hes swiftness and ofcourse i could not get to him with my 25% signet of locust.
If im not mistaken then necromancer is only class with no gap closer at all that would help us get into 1200 range to put down Chillblains safely, without risking that hes gonna be out of range by time its done casting.
If really we are not to get more mobility then at least improve the one gap closer we have and make Dark Path 1200 range, and maybe even lower its cast time/flight time.
It would just make more sense to have our awesome gap closer work in range where its actually useful and not in 900 range where we already can drop our chill/cripple, would help dagger/axe necro against beeing kited in 1200-900 range too.
Any constructive thoughts on this?

I had the same problem with a thief today. I did everything right, dodged all his cloak and daggers, he didn’t so much as get a single stealth off, even interrupted his heal with Spectral Grasp and knocked him out of Shadow Refuge with Staff 5. Completely locked him down and controlled the entire fight. He just Heartseeker spammed away from me at 5% health and there wasn’t a thing I could do to catch him. He out ran my Dark Path with his Heartseeker spam. Of course this happened in WvW so the whole, “If he ran away then you won.” argument doesn’t work. There was no other objective other than killing dirty rotten thieves and beating them at their own game.

I was not happy.

Kravick.4906:

I had the same problem with a thief today. I did everything right, dodged all his cloak and daggers, he didn’t so much as get a single stealth off, even interrupted his heal with Spectral Grasp and knocked him out of Shadow Refuge with Staff 5. Completely locked him down and controlled the entire fight. He just heartseeker spammed away from me at 5% health and there wasn’t a thing I could do to catch him. He out ran my Dark Path with his Heartseeker spam. Of course this happened in WvW so the whole, “If he ran away then you won.” argument doesn’t work. There was no objective other than killing him.

I was not happy.

Thief is a bit different thing, all teleports/slows in world wouldnt help us catch thief in wvwvw that wants to get away but the fact that even low mobility professions can just walk away with swiftness from necro is really disappointing.

Leeto.1570:

Thief is a bit different thing, all teleports/slows in world wouldnt help us catch thief in wvwvw that wants to get away but the fact that even low mobility professions can just walk away with swiftness from necro is really disappointing.

I get what you’re saying. I’m not upset at the fact that he got away. I’m just upset at the fact that someone mashing the 2 key on their keyboard trumps anything I have at catching him. 2222222222 is some real pro skills right there.

Now had he escaped because he popped his Signet of Shadows to blind me so Dark Path would miss, or used Shadowstep to avoid the projectile, or hell just dodged it, (it isn’t like he wouldn’t have seen it coming) I wouldn’t feel so jaded. Heartseeker spam is just stupid no matter how you look at it. It also really sucks that this method of escape physically out runs the only gap closer we have. The speed of the projectile is just pitiful. The same can be said about the staff auto attack as well.

Kravick.4906:

Leeto.1570:

Thief is a bit different thing, all teleports/slows in world wouldnt help us catch thief in wvwvw that wants to get away but the fact that even low mobility professions can just walk away with swiftness from necro is really disappointing.

I get what you’re saying. I’m not upset at the fact that he got away. I’m just upset at the fact that someone mashing the 2 key on their keyboard trumps anything I have at catching him. 2222222222 is some real pro skills right there.

Now had he escaped because he popped his Signet of Shadows to blind me so Dark Path would miss, or used Shadowstep to avoid the projectile, or hell just dodged it, (it isn’t like he wouldn’t have seen it coming) I wouldn’t feel so jaded. Heartseeker spam is just stupid no matter how you look at it. It also really sucks that this method of escape physically out runs the only gap closer we have. The speed of the projectile is just pitiful. The same can be said about the staff auto attack as well.

Dark Path is not designed for chasing people. It’s designed to close range with people while they’re using channeled skills like Meteor Shower. That’s why it’s a slow projectile. They’re supposed to see it and either finish their channel and eat the chill or dodge it and lose the channel. Necro has no “chasing” skills. We’ve been griping about this since release, and the devs have responded with repeated “Necros aren’t supposed to have mobility because blahblahblah.”

PinCushion.7390:

Kravick.4906:

Leeto.1570:

Thief is a bit different thing, all teleports/slows in world wouldnt help us catch thief in wvwvw that wants to get away but the fact that even low mobility professions can just walk away with swiftness from necro is really disappointing.

I get what you’re saying. I’m not upset at the fact that he got away. I’m just upset at the fact that someone mashing the 2 key on their keyboard trumps anything I have at catching him. 2222222222 is some real pro skills right there.

Now had he escaped because he popped his Signet of Shadows to blind me so Dark Path would miss, or used Shadowstep to avoid the projectile, or hell just dodged it, (it isn’t like he wouldn’t have seen it coming) I wouldn’t feel so jaded. Heartseeker spam is just stupid no matter how you look at it. It also really sucks that this method of escape physically out runs the only gap closer we have. The speed of the projectile is just pitiful. The same can be said about the staff auto attack as well.

Dark Path is not designed for chasing people. It’s designed to close range with people while they’re using channeled skills like Meteor Shower. That’s why it’s a slow projectile. They’re supposed to see it and either finish their channel and eat the chill or dodge it and lose the channel. Necro has no “chasing” skills. We’ve been griping about this since release, and the devs have responded with repeated “Necros aren’t supposed to have mobility because blahblahblah.”

If that is really intention behind Dark Path why it even has chill, but ofcourse im probobly just talking wrong here again, havent talked to any necro designers personally but Dark Path seems pretty obvious “chasing down” skill to me.

I don’t think that the sole purpose of dark path is to force people who are using channeling skills into a double bind. At best it’s a positiv side effect, would be my guess.

You can certainly use it as a gap closer. The indicated 900 range is actually just the teleportation range. The hand flys much further, even beyond 1200 I think. In that sense you could say it’s a gap minimizer. Sure, the further the hand flys, the easier it gets dodged. But if it hits you’ll be in range for chill blains.

Leeto.1570:

PinCushion.7390:

Kravick.4906:

Leeto.1570:

Thief is a bit different thing, all teleports/slows in world wouldnt help us catch thief in wvwvw that wants to get away but the fact that even low mobility professions can just walk away with swiftness from necro is really disappointing.

I get what you’re saying. I’m not upset at the fact that he got away. I’m just upset at the fact that someone mashing the 2 key on their keyboard trumps anything I have at catching him. 2222222222 is some real pro skills right there.

Now had he escaped because he popped his Signet of Shadows to blind me so Dark Path would miss, or used Shadowstep to avoid the projectile, or hell just dodged it, (it isn’t like he wouldn’t have seen it coming) I wouldn’t feel so jaded. Heartseeker spam is just stupid no matter how you look at it. It also really sucks that this method of escape physically out runs the only gap closer we have. The speed of the projectile is just pitiful. The same can be said about the staff auto attack as well.

Dark Path is not designed for chasing people. It’s designed to close range with people while they’re using channeled skills like Meteor Shower. That’s why it’s a slow projectile. They’re supposed to see it and either finish their channel and eat the chill or dodge it and lose the channel. Necro has no “chasing” skills. We’ve been griping about this since release, and the devs have responded with repeated “Necros aren’t supposed to have mobility because blahblahblah.”

If that is really intention behind Dark Path why it even has chill, but ofcourse im probobly just talking wrong here again, havent talked to any necro designers personally but Dark Path seems pretty obvious “chasing down” skill to me.

The chill is there to increase the cooldown on whatever skill they were using when they decided to eat your very obvious, very SLOW, mid-range, easy to dodge, telegraphed like nothing else in the game teleporting skill that would open them up to being immobilized/covered in wells/debuffed to oblivion. The movement speed debuff makes them stand in all those fields/wells/locust swarms just a little longer.

If someone is actually surprised by Dark Path, after they see the you hiss black steam, cast something that isn’t a Life Blast, and see a black-clawed hand lazily, gradually, slowly (omg so slowly) meander over to them then you probably could have beat them with your monitor turned off.

Its (Dark Path) definitely got nothing to do with long cast time abilities, it is a movement ability, always has been. Saying its for channeled abilities is ignoring the fact that it wasn’t always a projectile but a targeted blink (bring it back plox). They changed it, I think, because it gave necromancers too much out of combat mobility, and instead made it a gap closer. If you want to screw up someone’s channel, just Doom them, or use an interrupt, or Spectral Grasp them out of it (heck, Grasp will do both, screw the choice, make them eat the chill and lose their channel).

Also, warriors are far from low mobility, greatsword gives them a lot of movement.

More of a problem with the balance of 2 spam on the thief. They need a short cd to prevent it, or at least require a target selected to make them find a nearby critter. Raises the skill cap a little on that garbage.

I’m running a dagger/dagger power build with 100% condition duration, so this dark path issue is really important to me because between it and spect grasp, they are the crux of me locking down my opponent (8 second chills. yes please!). We really do lack reliable gap closing abilities, and speeding up the projectile would insta-fix and make this skill much more viable for any build type.

I took this quote from Class Balance Philosophy that was posted by Jonathan Sharp the game designer some patches ago:

Necro

The necro boasts the highest natural health of all the caster classes, and also has death shroud to extend that life total even higher. While they don’t have some of the escape or damage reduction capabilities that other classes boast, they do have a lot of ways to win attrition fights. They have access to poison on multiple weapons, they are able to combine condition damage with raw damage, and they have multiple disables to interrupt enemy skills. Necomancers also have multiple movement disabling abilities, which allows them to chase down enemies who are low on health.

Leeto you are spot on in the OP. As stated here by the devs own philosophy, its just got to be around the corner to fix this dark path issue. Trying to stay positve here.

1a) Bring back targeted teleport (but with a 1/2 cast time to prevent a unfair 15sec stunbreak cough mesmer staff #2 cough )

1b) a trait for targeting, like with our wells.
The only problem though is to prevent it to become a must-have. Soul Reaping trait line has many useful ones already, but the +15% movement is so bad it could be switched or added this effect since its a moving trait. Also this encourages multiple choices, because you cant have it all

2a) remove projectile, making it a teleport, like guardian sword #2.

2b) same as above, only it teleports the target to u. More necromancer-ish.

Bhawb.7408:

Its (Dark Path) definitely got nothing to do with long cast time abilities, it is a movement ability, always has been. Saying its for channeled abilities is ignoring the fact that it wasn’t always a projectile but a targeted blink (bring it back plox). They changed it, I think, because it gave necromancers too much out of combat mobility, and instead made it a gap closer. If you want to screw up someone’s channel, just Doom them, or use an interrupt, or Spectral Grasp them out of it (heck, Grasp will do both, screw the choice, make them eat the chill and lose their channel).

Also, warriors are far from low mobility, greatsword gives them a lot of movement.

I wasn’t implying that Dark Path isn’t intended to be a gap closer. I was implying that it isn’t very good as one, and is so telegraphed that it’s only useful against people not paying attention, newbs that don’t know what it does, or forcing people mid-channel to make a difficult decision.

Spectral Grasp would be better in every way if it would reliably hit things, and I think the skills would work well in tandem if the projectiles were slightly faster.

A targeted teleport or charge skill would be amazing, but I don’t think it’ll ever happen.

Add to 1B:
if u want it to be a 20pointer, the 25%hp locust swarm wont probably be missed

What exactly is movement disabling abilities ? Most our stuff hinders / slow down movement not disable.

But i guess dagger #3 and Rigor Mortiz ( bone fiend ) is enough to be multiple :<, does golem knockdown count ? or would that be more like a stun.

Oh well atleast other classes dont have access to multiple movement disabling abilities! right ?

Cripple and chill are soft CC’s, immobilize is arguably a soft CC as well (maybe weakness to a degree). Then fear, any forced displacement (knockup/knockback/pull), daze, and stun are hard CCs. Every necromancer has 1 hard CC, Doom, and 1 soft CC, Dark Path’s chill. Then there is only 1 weapon (dagger offhand) without any CC, every other weapon has at least 1 CC, meaning the lowest amount of CC you can possibly have as a necromancer is 1 chill, 1 fear, and 1 cripple, whereas most will have at least 1 more.

Yes, we have more CC than anything barring a few specific builds (like hammer builds).

Bhawb.7408:

Cripple and chill are soft CC’s, immobilize is arguably a soft CC as well (maybe weakness to a degree). Then fear, any forced displacement (knockup/knockback/pull), daze, and stun are hard CCs. Every necromancer has 1 hard CC, Doom, and 1 soft CC, Dark Path’s chill. Then there is only 1 weapon (dagger offhand) without any CC, every other weapon has at least 1 CC, meaning the lowest amount of CC you can possibly have as a necromancer is 1 chill, 1 fear, and 1 cripple, whereas most will have at least 1 more.

Yes, we have more CC than anything barring a few specific builds (like hammer builds).

Engineer CC builds have more CC than we could possibly dream of.

A build revolving around CC has more CC? Please go on :P

I did say that we have more CC barring a few specific builds. I realize that warrior/guardian hammer builds, and certain engineer builds have the ability to do better, but those are entire builds around CCing enemies, our CC is just gained via picking Necromancer in character creation.

Range to 1200 and a buff on the projectile speed would bring Dark Path up to the ‘hard to escape’ image Necromancers are suppose to have.

Ascii.9726:

Range to 1200 and a buff on the projectile speed would bring Dark Path up to the ‘hard to escape’ image Necromancers are suppose to have.

Last patch we actually got a buff to DP projectile speed (its about as twice as fast as Necrotic now.

Bhawb.7408:

A build revolving around CC has more CC? Please go on :P

I did say that we have more CC barring a few specific builds. I realize that warrior/guardian hammer builds, and certain engineer builds have the ability to do better, but those are entire builds around CCing enemies, our CC is just gained via picking Necromancer in character creation.

you can’t get less than 2 types of CC on an ele either no matter what weapons you pick so you could say the same about ele’s.

you can get 12 different cc abilities on an ele if you want as well

plenty more than a few builds out do the necro in amount of cc, ease of use and reliability on their cc

The problem with necros is that their CC’s are soft. The 1 second fear from doom is the best thing we get, and unfortunately it isn’t that good at all. You can’t line up attacks with it, it doesn’t last very long, and it is difficult to use quickly. The problem with cripple and chill is that they do not stop an attacking enemy from attacking, or a dodging enemy from dodging, or a ranged enemy at all. They are just cleansed out easily and then the fight goes on as if nothing happened. Seriously, I can count on one hand how many times Cripple and Chill has ever allowed me to control someone in PVP as well as been effective at controlling me.

Necros do have a few hard CCs: Immobilize from the dagger is decent if you don’t mind that the only thing you can use it with effectively are wells and the auto attack. The warhorn has a cone daze that can be effective, although it isn’t instant. The flesh golem’s charge is probably the best one, since it can come out of nowhere and is incredibly hard to stop. Spectral Grasp is great for WvW, but in sPVP I find that most people want to close the gap anyway. Mark of fear is alright, since it acts like a second doom that does very little damage.

I do use these things in WvW and in sPVP, but compared to the other classes I’ve played (engineer, mesmer, guardian, thief, elementlaist), it just seems so light. The thief is the only one that arguably has less, and I say arguably because there are some things (cough off-hand pistol cough) that are good at controls. The worst part is, any thief fighting a necromancer instantly gets a 3 second fear to use against them. The engineer throws enemies left and right with meaningful and effective controls almost regardless of what build you run. The guardian has plenty of movement denial, launches, pushes, and blocks. The mesmer is loaded with dazes and stuns, and has the best control in the game with Moa Morph. The elementalist was fast moving and had plenty of knockbacks and knockdowns that gave me defense against my foes.

Another big problem with using the controls a necro has is that they are awkwardly placed, and it feels like a sacrifice to have to use them, and there isn’t much of a payoff when you do. Of course the warhorn has got the daze, but swarm of locusts kind of sucks as a skill. The staff is slow and mediocre damaging, so anything other than an offensive hybrid can’t use reaper’s mark without sacrificing offense. Spectral Grasp is nice, but half the time I’m trying to keep my distance from enemies and not close it. The dagger’s immobilize needs you to be at such a close range that they’ll probably be bashing you with a hammer long before you even finish the lengthy activation time. The best one is the Flesh Golem because you aren’t sacrificing anything: It’s a good skill because the golem does good damage and can be activated at any time to charge through a group of enemies. And after all that, probably the best thing that can happen to that temporarily disabled enemy is… well of suffering.

I see alot of people say they use doom to set up other cc like dagger root and dark path

something is wrong when you need to use your hard cc to make sure your other cc hits to set up a well bomb or a gap closer

Andele.1306:

Last patch we actually got a buff to DP projectile speed (its about as twice as fast as Necrotic now.

Weres the patch notes on this? If i recall all that happened was it became unblockable, i haven’t noticed the speed increased at all.

Ascii.9726:

Andele.1306:

Last patch we actually got a buff to DP projectile speed (its about as twice as fast as Necrotic now.

Weres the patch notes on this? If i recall all that happened was it became unblockable, i haven’t noticed the speed increased at all.

No patch notes, just another one of those unnoted thing that just happened (if you recall DP was the same speed as Deathly Claws, now its about the speed of a engie bullet).

Andele.1306:

No patch notes, just another one of those unnoted thing that just happened (if you recall DP was the same speed as Deathly Claws, now its about the speed of a engie bullet).

Personally i haven’t noticed any projectile speed buffed on any of our skills since the Spectral Grasp change donkeys years ago. People can still outrun Dark Grasp and Necrotic Grasp.

Ascii.9726:

Personally i haven’t noticed any projectile speed buffed on any of our skills since the Spectral Grasp change donkeys years ago. People can still outrun Dark Grasp and Necrotic Grasp.

Check again, even with 25 signet you cannot outrun Dark Path anymore (you still can with swiftness, but thats 99% of necro projectiles).

Dark Path should have a detonate for teleport type option. You fire it, doesn’t look like its going to catch your target, so you detonate and it teleports you to the location. This would give us an actual escape tool, as well as help us catch the slipperier classes. Sort of like the Thief underwater skill Ink Shot. http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ink_Shot

Dredlord.8076:

I see alot of people say they use doom to set up other cc like dagger root and dark path

something is wrong when you need to use your hard cc to make sure your other cc hits to set up a well bomb or a gap closer

Thats exactly how I use it since I am not traited for fear duration but rather chill. I use fear to set up my dark path; timing becomes critical since you need to doom them before they are likely to dodge the dark path. Pretty much only way to make it hit a decent player.

Apollo.7583:

Dredlord.8076:

I see alot of people say they use doom to set up other cc like dagger root and dark path

something is wrong when you need to use your hard cc to make sure your other cc hits to set up a well bomb or a gap closer

Thats exactly how I use it since I am not traited for fear duration but rather chill. I use fear to set up my dark path; timing becomes critical since you need to doom them before they are likely to dodge the dark path. Pretty much only way to make it hit a decent player.

exactly and this just shows how bad our gap closer performs, I play ever other class but the ranger and none of them have a gap closer that you need to hard cc your target first to have it reliably work.

Copenhagen, the detonation idea is actually a very good idea! would be great fun to play with, if u dark path and instantly regret it (their zerg pops out of nowhere) u could detonate before it hits to minimise ur risk. offering us more control over our abilities.

Am i the only necro that actually thinks my class is overpowered ? (At least at tPvP)

Sorem.9157:

Am i the only necro that actually thinks my class is overpowered ? (At least at tPvP)

Yep.

As much as I love the necromancer, I don’t think we are OP.

Sorem.9157:

Am i the only necro that actually thinks my class is overpowered ? (At least at tPvP)

what build do you use and in what way do you feel it is overpowered?

is it only in a group you feel overpowered (tpvp) ?

Sorem.9157:

Am i the only necro that actually thinks my class is overpowered ? (At least at tPvP)

In theory, the support skills (shortest cooldown instant rez, amazing tanking with plague form, epidemic, corrupt boon,) that a necro has can be extremely powerful when paired up with a practiced, communicating team of other players of equal competence.

In theory. I have yet to find such a thing myself.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

Sorem.9157:

Am i the only necro that actually thinks my class is overpowered ? (At least at tPvP)

In theory, the support skills (shortest cooldown instant rez, amazing tanking with plague form, epidemic, corrupt boon,) that a necro has can be extremely powerful when paired up with a practiced, communicating team of other players of equal competence.

In theory. I have yet to find such a thing myself.

The great tragedy of science – the slaying of a beautiful hypothesis by ugly facts.

When I feel OP:

I have to tank damage for long periods of time.
I have to help my group members tank damage for short periods of time.
I land a sweet Putrid Mark + Epidemic on a zerg of newbies in WvW and they all die.
I 1vs1 someone in WvW, the fight takes a really long time, and they die with me still at mostly full health.

When I don’t feel OP:

I have to DO a lot of damage in a short period of time.
I have to help my group members do a lot of damage in a short period of time.
I land a sweet Putrid Mark + Epidemic in WvW on a group of non-newbs and everything gets instantly cleansed.
I 1vs1 someone in WvW, the fight takes a really long time, and their friend shows up and they both rez each other while bursting me to death.
I 1vs1 someone in WvW, the fight takes a long time, and when they start losing they just leave because they can.
I get turned into a speed-bump by zergs in WvW because I don’t have Ride the Lightning.
I fight a boss mob that chain-cleanses.

As you’ve mentioned dark path is way too slow, I can almost run the same distance by the time it hits a target. So yea, I agree probably something can be done here. The only time I find the teleport effect helpful is if I am immob or crippled and otherwise lacking movement. The chill effect is always good however.

One thing necros lack is a good leap, could just skip the whole projectile thing and make it one.

Its not that we need a buff imo, but this skill just doesnt seem to do what its needed for.

Give me passive Regen and condition removal (and maybe stability) in Deathshroud, like Thieves and Mesmers have in stealth please.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

Sorem.9157:

Am i the only necro that actually thinks my class is overpowered ? (At least at tPvP)

In theory, the support skills (shortest cooldown instant rez, amazing tanking with plague form, epidemic, corrupt boon,) that a necro has can be extremely powerful when paired up with a practiced, communicating team of other players of equal competence.

In theory. I have yet to find such a thing myself.

It’s the game mode, it’s not conducive to group fights. You’ll rarely get a 4v4 and never a 5v5, and if you invest in the (really amazing) team support skills as your utilities you’ll have a lot less mobility, which is more valuable in conquest.

Sorem.9157:

Am i the only necro that actually thinks my class is overpowered ? (At least at tPvP)

Probably. I don’t think that Necro is terribly far from where it should be balanced though. Very solid in group engagements due to support abilities, but no mobility, no gap closer, bad stun breaks, mediocre damage, lack of condition diversity. There are a lot of things you give up for the strengths of Necromancer.