Guild Wars 2

Hello all, So i noticed the trait Parasitic Contagion doesn’t seem to heal through shroud like vampiric does under blood trait tree. you would think parasitic contagion would heal through shroud as major grandmaster trait, and yet Vampiric trait will heal through a shroud and its a minor master trait. Is this a bug? If so i hope its fixed soon.

It is, in fact, not a bug; It’s for balancing purposes to help make sure that Condi builds can’t gain too much sustain, since these builds are already quite tanky and survivable.

Zero Solstice.9754:

It is, in fact, not a bug; It’s for balancing purposes to help make sure that Condi builds can’t gain too much sustain, since these builds are already quite tanky and survivable.

Wait… What?

Well there are alot of things that dont heal though shroud. The only reason lifesteal works though shroud is because it was useless before and nobody used it.

So maybe if pc isnt taken for years Anet will change it to work though shroud.

Parasitic Contagion not working through Shroud is intentional, but I don’t think you will find a Necro player who thinks that it should be that way.

Parasitic Contagion is one of those traits that either do nothing or get out of hand in a matter of seconds, depending on scenario and your preffered game mode.

I wouldn’t mind it dropping a tier or two, maybe even becoming a minor, but changing the 10% conversion rate into something more reliable and predictable. After that we could start thinking about making it heal through Shroud.

Honestly? I don’t think condi necro should be allowed para con to heal through shroud. But I also don’t think thief should get kittening condi removal on evade that also gives them damage reduction plus tons of endurance restoration on top of it all. I don’t think guardian should have enough raw burst while so far you can’t even see them anymore that they just outright kill glass characters. I don’t think ranger should have the de facto best in slot support abilities and traits to the point where if you try anything else you’re running a seriously suboptimal group. And I definitely don’t think think mesmer should be able to get off so much shatter spam to the point where you’re just screaming as illusions inflict 15-20 confusions on you plus other condis I’m sure.

POINT IS! Necro SHOULDN’T have this. But considering the way things are? They might need it plus many more things to bring them on par with other classes.
That or.. y’know… drag every other single class in the game down. Which is the antithesis of fun. At this point it’d be better to just buff the weak classes and let power creep happen so long as it happens semi-equally across classes.

Zero Solstice.9754:

It is, in fact, not a bug; It’s for balancing purposes to help make sure that Condi builds can’t gain too much sustain, since these builds are already quite tanky and survivable.

And then you realize that power reaper is way more survivable than any condi variant.

Crinn.7864:

Zero Solstice.9754:

It is, in fact, not a bug; It’s for balancing purposes to help make sure that Condi builds can’t gain too much sustain, since these builds are already quite tanky and survivable.

And then you realize that power reaper is way more survivable than any condi variant.

I’m inclined to disagree. I can agree that being able to run both “Your Soul is Mine!” and Blighter’s Boon at the same time gives Power Reaper a ton of sustain, but it’s also a build with generally less utility, less Toughness, less Vitality, and less CC. At this point they’re probably pretty close, but I admit I’m a bit partial towards Condi specs.

naturesoul.3578:

you would think parasitic contagion would heal through shroud as major grandmaster trait, and yet Vampiric trait will heal through a shroud and its a minor master trait.

I’m having a hard time estimating for how long you’ve been playing the game.
Your complaint in general would suggest that you’re new, or new to necro anyway.
But then the grandmaster vs master minor comparison is some pre-2015 mentality.
Since they implemented the specialization system, trait tiers have become completely irrelevant except for when you want to prevent a ceratin trait combination by placing them in the same tier.

Rym.1469:

I wouldn’t mind it dropping a tier or two, maybe even becoming a minor, but changing the 10% conversion rate into something more reliable and predictable. After that we could start thinking about making it heal through Shroud.

Again, tiers are irrelevant.

Also, this is the wrong approach. First make everything heal through Shroud, then balance if necessary.

Murdock.6547:

Honestly? I don’t think condi necro should be allowed para con to heal through shroud.
…
POINT IS! Necro SHOULDN’T have this. But considering the way things are? They might need it plus many more things to bring them on par with other classes.

Healing through Shroud is primarily a matter of proper class design.
The main defensive mechanic cancels out a ton of defensive traits, skills and other classes’ support in team fights. It’s actually mindblowing how this is still a thing almost 5 years after release.

POINT IS! EVERYTHING should heal through Shroud.
This should be the priority.
And before some of you jump in and say how “unkillable and op…” that would be: no, it wouldn’t. You’re overestimating how much healing you’re actually missing out on. And you’re underestimating how much necros need this extra bit of support and sustain.

Also, in case of Parasitic Contagion, Weakening Shroud would still be the stronger choice for PvP. If anything they’d have to increase the healing % in addition to making it work all the time.

Zero Solstice.9754:

Crinn.7864:

And then you realize that power reaper is way more survivable than any condi variant.

I can agree that being able to run both “Your Soul is Mine!” and Blighter’s Boon at the same time gives Power Reaper a ton of sustain, but it’s also a build with generally less utility, less Toughness, less Vitality, and less CC.

Less utility and less CC is just not true.
@ toughness/vitality: Mercenary amulet was removed, Paladin is still in the game and it’s the only amulet that has both stats. So it’s actually the opposite.

There is a reason why “Blighter’s Boon” and “Deathly Chill” can’t be traited at the same time!

Just think about it!

Yeah, let them broken trailblazer reapers heal through shroud for 1k HP per second – even outhealing adrenal health zerkers. Sounds like a great idea! NOT!

(To the sPvP folks: Even in that game mode it would be broken for several reasons like attacking range, cc capability, aoe damage… but still useless when being focused by the whole enemy team.)

Heal through shoud in general is a (badly working) crutch for necros mobility issues. Even Blighter’s Boon on a power build is super situational. How many shroud autos do you land on a thief or mesmer?

The “mess up everything” potencial for shroud heal is high and the geneal benefit for the class is low. Some mobility options (hello flesh wurm instacast!) would help us much more.

KrHome.1920:

There is a reason why “Blighter’s Boon” and “Deathly Chill” can’t be traited at the same time!

Just think about it!

Yeah, let them broken trailblazer reapers heal through shroud for 1k HP per second – even outhealing adrenal health zerkers. Sounds like a great idea! NOT!

(To the sPvP folks: Even in that game mode it would be broken for several reasons like attacking range, cc capability, aoe damage… but still useless when being focused by the whole enemy team.)

Heal through shoud in general is a (badly working) crutch for necros mobility issues. Even Blighter’s Boon on a power build is super situational. How many shroud autos do you land on a thief or mesmer?

The “mess up everything” potencial for shroud heal is high and the geneal benefit for the class is low. Some mobility options (hello flesh wurm instacast!) would help us much more.

Well… it’s true that “potential” is what hurt the necromancer the most. But i’d like you to consider at least one thing :

While the necromancer could have this potential to heal himself at 1k/second in shroud thanks to parasitic contagion, in reality, each player he face would not heal him for a lot more than 2k at most. Since they’d be dead in 2 seconds anyway.

In fact in a fight where the necromancer can target more than 1 foe, the healing potential per second is a lot more frightening than a mere 1k per second. I trust that a clever epidemic have the potential to reach 5k/s heal.

And this is probably this potential that led the dev to not allow it’s heal to pass through shroud. Simply because at 5k heal/second, you don’t need any shroud.

However, potential is alway bound to some ideal moment that very rarely happen. The reality is that in a fight against 2 players, if the necromancer reach this kind of sustain it’s that the other player is already deadmeat (not because of the sustain but because he take 10k damage per second and he will be dead before having the time to heal himself).

The simple fact that you reached this level of sustain already mean that you don’t need it. Ain’t this fascinating? In reality, you’ll never outsustain a traited warrior, a traited thief or an elementalist specialized in sustain. You might struggle to reach this edge and even achieve some awesome sustain peak. But in pur sustain you’ll always stay behind.

Now, if you take into account the LF that you gain, strictly speaking you’ll outsustain every other profession because shroud is an HP shield. Is this good design? this is a difficult question to answer. What’s certain is that it make the survivability potential of the necromancer very impressive, to the point of bein scarry, but at the same time it make it really difficult to properly achieve even 60% of this potential.

KrHome.1920:

T
Heal through shoud in general is a (badly working) crutch for necros mobility issues. Even Blighter’s Boon on a power build is super situational. How many shroud autos do you land on a thief or mesmer?

Doesn’t matter. It’ll heal anyway. It’s executing the shroud #1 that triggers the heal, hitting is irrelevant in this case.

ZeftheWicked.3076:

KrHome.1920:

T
Heal through shoud in general is a (badly working) crutch for necros mobility issues. Even Blighter’s Boon on a power build is super situational. How many shroud autos do you land on a thief or mesmer?

Doesn’t matter. It’ll heal anyway. It’s executing the shroud #1 that triggers the heal, hitting is irrelevant in this case.

This is actually incorrect. It applies when you apply a boon to yourself. The only boons you can apply to yourself are stab and might in RS. And if you are not taking spite, you MUST strike chilled foes in order to proc this trait with the auto. Spite is what gives you might using rs 1.

flow.6043:

Rym.1469:

I wouldn’t mind it dropping a tier or two, maybe even becoming a minor, but changing the 10% conversion rate into something more reliable and predictable. After that we could start thinking about making it heal through Shroud.

Again, tiers are irrelevant.

I am very aware of that – I talk about dropping tiers because that sort of trait could be more competitive in Adept.

FrostDraco.8306:

ZeftheWicked.3076:

KrHome.1920:

T
Heal through shoud in general is a (badly working) crutch for necros mobility issues. Even Blighter’s Boon on a power build is super situational. How many shroud autos do you land on a thief or mesmer?

Doesn’t matter. It’ll heal anyway. It’s executing the shroud #1 that triggers the heal, hitting is irrelevant in this case.

This is actually incorrect. It applies when you apply a boon to yourself. The only boons you can apply to yourself are stab and might in RS. And if you are not taking spite, you MUST strike chilled foes in order to proc this trait with the auto. Spite is what gives you might using rs 1.

No i am sure he is talking about blighters boon with spite and in that case you always get the heal from the auto because the auto always generates might. Also without spite bb is kinda meh and since spite is a good traitline i dont see why you ever want to run bb without spite unless you run some fun build.

flow.6043:

naturesoul.3578:

you would think parasitic contagion would heal through shroud as major grandmaster trait, and yet Vampiric trait will heal through a shroud and its a minor master trait.

I’m having a hard time estimating for how long you’ve been playing the game.
Your complaint in general would suggest that you’re new, or new to necro anyway.
But then the grandmaster vs master minor comparison is some pre-2015 mentality.
Since they implemented the specialization system, trait tiers have become completely irrelevant except for when you want to prevent a ceratin trait combination by placing them in the same tier.

Rym.1469:

I wouldn’t mind it dropping a tier or two, maybe even becoming a minor, but changing the 10% conversion rate into something more reliable and predictable. After that we could start thinking about making it heal through Shroud.

Again, tiers are irrelevant.

Also, this is the wrong approach. First make everything heal through Shroud, then balance if necessary.

Murdock.6547:

Honestly? I don’t think condi necro should be allowed para con to heal through shroud.
…
POINT IS! Necro SHOULDN’T have this. But considering the way things are? They might need it plus many more things to bring them on par with other classes.

Healing through Shroud is primarily a matter of proper class design.
The main defensive mechanic cancels out a ton of defensive traits, skills and other classes’ support in team fights. It’s actually mindblowing how this is still a thing almost 5 years after release.

POINT IS! EVERYTHING should heal through Shroud.
This should be the priority.
And before some of you jump in and say how “unkillable and op…” that would be: no, it wouldn’t. You’re overestimating how much healing you’re actually missing out on. And you’re underestimating how much necros need this extra bit of support and sustain.

Also, in case of Parasitic Contagion, Weakening Shroud would still be the stronger choice for PvP. If anything they’d have to increase the healing % in addition to making it work all the time.

Zero Solstice.9754:

Crinn.7864:

And then you realize that power reaper is way more survivable than any condi variant.

I can agree that being able to run both “Your Soul is Mine!” and Blighter’s Boon at the same time gives Power Reaper a ton of sustain, but it’s also a build with generally less utility, less Toughness, less Vitality, and less CC.

Less utility and less CC is just not true.
@ toughness/vitality: Mercenary amulet was removed, Paladin is still in the game and it’s the only amulet that has both stats. So it’s actually the opposite.

Just FYI i have been playing for little over 3 years now.

flow.6043:

Zero Solstice.9754:

Crinn.7864:

And then you realize that power reaper is way more survivable than any condi variant.

I can agree that being able to run both “Your Soul is Mine!” and Blighter’s Boon at the same time gives Power Reaper a ton of sustain, but it’s also a build with generally less utility, less Toughness, less Vitality, and less CC.

Less utility and less CC is just not true.
@ toughness/vitality: Mercenary amulet was removed, Paladin is still in the game and it’s the only amulet that has both stats. So it’s actually the opposite.

You’re operating under the assumption that we’re talking strictly about the PvP game mode. If you want to talk PvP then yes: sustainable stats were gutted across the board, especially for condition-based specs. This is entirely not the case in WvW. If you want to make the case of Parasitic Contagion in PvP, then I think it’s absolutely not worth your time, but the case for WvW is much more open-ended.

I would definitely argue the CC and utility case. A Power Reaper has to sacrifice strength in order to offer any reasonable amount of utility, whereas a Condi Reaper can just slot it right in. Plus considering most Necromancer CC is of the soft variety, Condi specs with Expertise and Duration foods have strictly higher CC uptime than Power specs do. A Power Reaper can’t just run Poison Cloud or Epidemic for free, whereas a Condi Reaper can just stick it on their bar and even make it better through natural trait changes.

KrHome.1920:

Heal through shoud in general is a (badly working) crutch for necros mobility issues. Even Blighter’s Boon on a power build is super situational. How many shroud autos do you land on a thief or mesmer?

It actually works rather well for Blighter’s Boon. I can think of several times when I’ve healed myself from 25% hp to full while in shroud. Honestly, you should really never come across mesmers or thieves alone as that’s not your role. And it’s always funny how warriors think they can win the fight when I have even half a bar of LF when in fact it’s a fleetingly small chance they have.

Zero Solstice.9754:

flow.6043:

Less utility and less CC is just not true.
@ toughness/vitality: Mercenary amulet was removed, Paladin is still in the game and it’s the only amulet that has both stats. So it’s actually the opposite.

You’re operating under the assumption that we’re talking strictly about the PvP game mode. If you want to talk PvP then yes: sustainable stats were gutted across the board, especially for condition-based specs. This is entirely not the case in WvW.

I actually assumed you were talking about PvP because that’s the only place your vitality/thoughness argument makes sense.
You can mix stats in WvW however you want. And neither condi nor power builds get any advantages or disadvantages by gearing with equal amounts of defensive stats.

Zero Solstice.9754:

If you want to make the case of Parasitic Contagion in PvP, then I think it’s absolutely not worth your time, but the case for WvW is much more open-ended.

Like I said, imo Weakening Shroud is the stronger trait regardless of game mode.

I’ve only ever seen Methane make good use of Parasitic Contagion, but in that case it only worked because he kites well with traited Spectral Wall/Walk and Flesh Wurm. In any other build where you’re under pressure for longer amounts of time, the healing of PC is just not strong enough to justify it over even just a few glancing hits.

Zero Solstice.9754:

I would definitely argue the CC and utility case. A Power Reaper has to sacrifice strength in order to offer any reasonable amount of utility, whereas a Condi Reaper can just slot it right in. Plus considering most Necromancer CC is of the soft variety, Condi specs with Expertise and Duration foods have strictly higher CC uptime than Power specs do. A Power Reaper can’t just run Poison Cloud or Epidemic for free, whereas a Condi Reaper can just stick it on their bar and even make it better through natural trait changes.

Your comparison just doesn’t make sense to me.
It would probably help if you post the two builds you’re talking about.

Also, how is taking Corrosive Poison Cloud and Epidemic “for free” when you run a condi build? Are you saying there’s no opportunity cost in taking those? Or that power builds can’t make use of CPC’s projectile block? Or that power builds can’t run equally or more effective alternative utility skills?
Soft CC? Chill, cripple, weakness uptime are neglibably higher on builds with duration gear and food.
Utility? Which one? Honestly, I don’t know what you’re talking about. Do you mean weapon skills, traits or just utility skills?

He just mean that soft CC last longer with condi gear (expertise) which make them logically more potent.

I personnally won’t argue but I think that power and condi have about the same amount of CC. Saying that it’s better to pick CPC as an utility in condi build is probably both right and wrong, the reallity is that the usefullness is about the same for both condi and power build. It would be like saying WoD is a better pick in a condi build.

Dadnir.5038:

He just mean that soft CC last longer with condi gear (expertise) which make them logically more potent.

I personnally won’t argue but I think that power and condi have about the same amount of CC. Saying that it’s better to pick CPC as an utility in condi build is probably both right and wrong, the reallity is that the usefullness is about the same for both condi and power build. It would be like saying WoD is a better pick in a condi build.

The problem with CPC and power builds is that CPC applies self-weakness

does it change the fact that you :
- stop projectiles?
- apply a condition that reduce the damage output of the foe?
and
- apply a condition that reduce the healing received by the foe?

Sure you’ll have more damage output with a condi build after using it but it doesn’t mean that the skill is not as usefull to a power build. That’s what I meant.

Dadnir.5038:

It would be like saying WoD is a better pick in a condi build.

Now if only Well of Darkness had projectile block. It would make a great power alternative to CPC.

Dadnir.5038:

does it change the fact that you :
- stop projectiles?
- apply a condition that reduce the damage output of the foe?
and
- apply a condition that reduce the healing received by the foe?

Sure you’ll have more damage output with a condi build after using it but it doesn’t mean that the skill is not as usefull to a power build. That’s what I meant.

The fact you lose damage output on a build that already has low damage is the exact definition of “not being as useful”. The utility remains the same, in theory, except for the fact damage is a factor. You can’t just leave that out because it suits your argument.

The problem with power reaper is that every utility slot needs to be used for damage to have comparable damage to almost any other build…and this is even after min maxing (excluding rev, because thats a different situation with utility).

If every slot is used for damage, you lose utility. If you take heavy situational utility, you lose a giant chunk of damage. You would say its balanced, until you realize other classes/builds dont have this issue, because their weapons skills, and traits, that allow them to have damage AND utility. Meaning they have more options.

Well, the usefullness of a defensive skill is not in it’s offensive aspect but in it’s defensive aspect. Beside, other professions do have defensive skills that disable totally their offense :

guardian : shelter and renewed focus
elementalist : mist form
warrior : shield stance
engineer : elixir S

Would you rather see them being able to do power damage at the same time they use those skills?

We can’t just expect to have skills with no drawback because we are necromancers. Even worst, from Anet point of view, us being able to weaken ourself on demand is a boon since they expect us to make use of this weakness regardless of the fact that we play condi or power.