@Bas
I was directing my post to you because to you painting an unrealistic scenario.
I think many bad players here are sick of you blowing rainbows and sunshine up our kitten holes with tales of realistic necro situations and your “lists of abilities” (not builds) that correctly portray an “everything is fine” necro.
Fixed your grammar. L2P.
@Bas
In your example you have this incorrect notion that you are “taking no damage” while in DS, when in essense it is basically all EHP. You do not seem to recognize this, even through my many attempts to explain this fact. If consider your health pool and LF pool as one big EHP pool your whole example becomes nonsensical.
It is you who is linking two separate issues, being able to heal in DS and our HPS output, together. If you are making the argument that you think our HPS is too high in PvE, which I have little experience with so I won’t comment, then that is an entirely separate issue. But our HPS is most certainly not high in PvP, which is what you were alluding to with the “unkillable in 1v1” comment.
The whole point of me explaining the optimally short up time of DS was say that in a realistic scenario your DS uptime is short, and the amount of consistent HPS is low (in PvP). This basically means the healing you would receive in DS is minimal, at best. The plus side however is that it indirectly buffs many underpowered traits in the blood line, and promotes more synergy with team members.
And I find it very very hard to believe it is this way due to balance concerns. Like I said previously, I am pretty sure this is just bad coding/overight/bug by ANet rather than any design intention. Remember that DS used to be activated upon being downed, which if I were to guess is the reason they disabled healing in DS in the first place.
(edited by Skyro.3108)
How disappointing. I don’t really see a reason why heals shouldn’t work in death shroud.
Because we would become incredibly difficult to kill. It would basically be you can’t hurt my health, I am recouping my health, and you are being hurt in the process. If you traited for the 5 percent CD on DS, you would essentially have invulnerability with regen while dealing damage every 5 seconds. Considering Life blast can hurt and you could use fear and Life Transfer to heal. You would be next to impossible to ever kill 1v1.
Sounds like a thief, but without the condition removal.
Except a thief can be damaged while in stealth, I’ve killed quite a few of them while they were invisible.
@Bas
In your example you have this incorrect notion that you are “taking no damage” while in DS, when in essense it is basically all EHP. You do not seem to recognize this, even through my many attempts to explain this fact. If consider your health pool and LF pool as one big EHP pool your whole example becomes nonsensical.
It is you who is linking two separate issues, being able to heal in DS and our HPS output, together. If you are making the argument that you think our HPS is too high in PvE, which I have little experience with so I won’t comment, then that is an entirely separate issue. But our HPS is most certainly not high in PvP, which is what you were alluding to with the “unkillable in 1v1” comment.
The whole point of me explaining the optimally short up time of DS was say that in a realistic scenario your DS uptime is short, and the amount of consistent HPS is low (in PvP). This basically means the healing you would receive in DS is minimal, at best. The plus side however is that it indirectly buffs many underpowered traits in the blood line, and promotes more synergy with team members.
And I find it very very hard to believe it is this way due to balance concerns. Like I said previously, I am pretty sure this is just bad coding by ANet.
I can see what you are saying about EHS, but that would be looking at DS as an actual life bar, while I look at it more like a utility transformation state. I can see your point, but my point is that currently when I leave DS I am still at 14k health if I lose it, and with the healing added to DS, I would be back at 28k health in DS or whatever health I currently have which using your EHS means that I would have constant resupply of EHS from two sources making us incredibly difficult kills.
I am not disagreeing with your notion that in most builds you wouldn’t be unkillable. I am saying against a majority of players in a 1v1 situation with a 0/10/0/30/30 build with Cleric’s gear we would be as close to unkillable as the elementalist was pre 30 Arcana nerf.
just so you guys dont feel like you are getting shorted.
mesmers got nerfed last patch by a bug cutting izerker damage in half.
time warp nerf. they are upset about thier buffs to beams because its almost impossible to line up 2 targets.. blah blah. tears all over.
engineers even though they got buffed seem to be whining a ton also. more then they are happy about the buffs.
thieves think they are broken by the reveal buff.
warriors are “quitting” over the “game breaking” nerf to quickness that takes away all thier greatsword burst.
guardians got nothing notable.
blah blah. not sure if there is alot to whine about or that whiners post more on the forums.
@skyro
The problem here is we are having two different conversations. You are discussing optimal usage of DS which I agree with, and in the strictest sense you are correct. If you use DS to swap in and out then there is no danger of it becoming OP.
Your scenario of the heal situation actually made me laugh because of how often it actually happens, and has happened numerous times in Dungeons with myself and others trying to drop a heal or shout to bring me up a bit.
However, there is a bit of a disconnect where you and I are talking. (Disclaimer: all numbers are subjective because I have no desire to go check the actual numbers so I am rounding)Let’s say I am in a fight and I get hit for 14k, because I forgot to use DS to absorb or didn’t have enough LF to absorb it.
So I use Staff 2 to pop regen healing me for 300 per tick , I picked up siphon on hit which is 33 per hit, than I pick up Life Transfer which is around 2400 for the channel. I also pick up wells siphon 150 per tick (I have heard reports of higher, but I haven’t seen it).
I am sitting at 14k health now, and with most classes (ele’s not included) this is half the battle, you can drop the rest of their health pretty rapidly with another burst knockdown even guardians at 14k have to use their healing ability.
If we could heal at full healing power which is what some of you want. I could realistically drop my wells, hit the marks 2 to regen, than pop into DS keep healing while taking no damage and hit life transfer realistically healing my life most of the way back up without using my actual heal. You don’t see how this could make us incredibly difficult to kill? Not to mention anyone could do this every 10 seconds or every 5 seconds. Let’s not even add that Well of Blood is amazingly powerful. This would make us a less mobile version of the Elementalist that saw a serious nerf to it’s 30 arcana, yet is still called op and ridiculous by most players.
If our healing saw a significant reduction say 50 percent minimum to our heals while in DS than that would at least be worth of discussion.
as I said before…
When a simple knockback/pull (that almost every other class has access to)can both knock you out of your well and interupt your lifesiphon and negate almost all of that healing then the cat falls right out of your argument and unless you are fighting terrible opponents you are getting up with no life force left either.
Not to mention anyone could do this every 10 seconds or every 5 seconds.
How did you get your wells and Life siphon cooldown this low?
@Bas
In your example you have this incorrect notion that you are “taking no damage” while in DS, when in essense it is basically all EHP. You do not seem to recognize this, even through my many attempts to explain this fact. If consider your health pool and LF pool as one big EHP pool your whole example becomes nonsensical.
It is you who is linking two separate issues, being able to heal in DS and our HPS output, together. If you are making the argument that you think our HPS is too high in PvE, which I have little experience with so I won’t comment, then that is an entirely separate issue. But our HPS is most certainly not high in PvP, which is what you were alluding to with the “unkillable in 1v1” comment.
The whole point of me explaining the optimally short up time of DS was say that in a realistic scenario your DS uptime is short, and the amount of consistent HPS is low (in PvP). This basically means the healing you would receive in DS is minimal, at best. The plus side however is that it indirectly buffs many underpowered traits in the blood line, and promotes more synergy with team members.
And I find it very very hard to believe it is this way due to balance concerns. Like I said previously, I am pretty sure this is just bad coding by ANet.
I can see what you are saying about EHS, but that would be looking at DS as an actual life bar, while I look at it more like a utility transformation state. I can see your point, but my point is that currently when I leave DS I am still at 14k health if I lose it, and with the healing added to DS, I would be back at 28k health in DS or whatever health I currently have which using your EHS means that I would have constant resupply of EHS from two sources making us incredibly difficult kills.
I am not disagreeing with your notion that in most builds you wouldn’t be unkillable. I am saying against a majority of players in a 1v1 situation with a 0/10/0/30/30 build with Cleric’s gear we would be as close to unkillable as the elementalist was pre 30 Arcana nerf.
Yeah, and if your HPS is > incoming DPS, you didn’t need to go into DS in the first place, and you saved yourself all that LF deterioration. I also would highly recommend you do look at LF as an extended life bar (w/ caveats of course), instead of some abstract notion of it that you have in your head.
Also I don’t disagree you would be very hard to kill with such a build, but you still never explained why:
1) you think being unkillable as a bunker with no DPS output is OP when there are already many classes/builds that does this better which are not considered OP
2) why you believe being able to be healed in DS is some kind of balance “tipping point” so to speak for this build, which if anything is currently underpowered in PvP and can already survive 1v1
@Skyro, talk with Nay and Del Onasi about our healing abilities. I once felt like you did and then watched their support builds keep three minions alive through an entire dungeon. I no longer disagree with them.
It was more like 6 minions between the two people running MM, get it right geez, always misinforming the masses ;-) /sarcasm. Bas is right though, our heals don’t seem so epic because you’re thinking of them in terms of guardian healing which has a lot of burst heal, but necro is more of a sustained healing type, couple that with a cover for your hp bar (DS) and it does become pretty op, even if DS only lasts for a few hits, those few powerful hits were redirected and not affecting your health while you continued to heal. I would be totally on board for having heal reduction while in DS though. While I would prefer a 50% I think 25% would be more realistic and wouldn’t make it remotely op while still providing more usefulness. I run full support builds so I know firsthand just how fast and often we can pop off massive healing and trust me, full heals while in DS would be too op. I would love it yes, is it feasible, no.
just so you guys dont feel like you are getting shorted.
mesmers got nerfed last patch by a bug cutting izerker damage in half.
time warp nerf. they are upset about thier buffs to beams because its almost impossible to line up 2 targets.. blah blah. tears all over.engineers even though they got buffed seem to be whining a ton also. more then they are happy about the buffs.
thieves think they are broken by the reveal buff.
warriors are “quitting” over the “game breaking” nerf to quickness that takes away all thier greatsword burst.
guardians got nothing notable.
blah blah. not sure if there is alot to whine about or that whiners post more on the forums.
If it ain’t broke dont fix it. PVPers can go kitten it.
To be ‘invulnerable’ if we could heal in DS (which is something I have supported for a long time) firstly you would have to:
>have enough LF to take whatever damage for the duration you stay in DS.
>You must then also be able to regen enough HP in one rotation of being is DS and being out of DS so that your HP at the beginning (entering DS) is the same as the end of the rotation (entering DS again) is equal or greater.
>Thirdly you must produce enough LF while you are out of DS to recoup whatever you lost in DS. If for example assuming you stay in DS for 5 seconds, that’s 20% LF + whatever you’ve taken in damage, keeping in mind your LF pool is only 60% of your health as I demonstrated in another thread.
>Lastly, you have to be able to do this every single rotation, meaning those long CD skills like transfusion boosted life transfer (which can be interrupted unless you have foot in the grave, which somewhat goes against this theoretical build) and well of blood would have to heal absolutely shocking amount of health, in order to carry you for multiple rotations each, which of course they can’t, both heal 2k+ (not including WoB main heal obviously) which is nice, but when combined with perm regen and vampiric traits is not going to heal you enough.
The most likely thing is that you’re going to get knocked out of DS prematurely, and not have enough LF to continue your rotations, as DS is effective against single, large damage attack. It’s not designed to face tank sustained damage, nor should it.
Healing in DS would certainly make a necro harder to kill, but it is so very far from making is as sustainable as an ele or guard.
(edited by War Mourner.5168)
Many thanks for the Death Shroud UI update! /bow @
Did they improve the animation of wells and CPC? or am I just not noticing them before???
DS works exactly as before, just you can actually see all the boons and conditions which is more than i could of ever hoped for in a patch. I was sort of able to heal in DS. Used life transfer just as i was about to run out of lifeforce, the ability continued to channel as it always did if you cast it just before you lost all your lifeforce. And because I aoe crit’d a group of enemies with 20 points in blood magic I went from almost no hp to half in a second. Its just a shame you cant force this to happen everytime anymore seeing as lifetransfer cancels if you switch out of DS manually (Was fixed a while ago and noone mentioned it).
Really didn’t expect any significant changes this patch for necromancers, glad to see that DS UI made it in.
DS works exactly as before, just you can actually see all the boons and conditions which is more than i could of ever hoped for in a patch. I was sort of able to heal in DS. Used life transfer just as i was about to run out of lifeforce, the ability continued to channel as it always did if you cast it just before you lost all your lifeforce. And because I aoe crit’d a group of enemies with 20 points in blood magic I went from almost no hp to half in a second. Its just a shame you cant force this to happen everytime anymore seeing as lifetransfer cancels if you switch out of DS manually (Was fixed a while ago and noone mentioned it).
Natural LF degeneration forces it, Casting it while the Life force bar is just about 1 cm away from the edge/spam tapping it while casting the last life blast lets you self heal via transfusion, isnt that public necromancer knowledge?
While I applaud the DS UI change, I can’t say I’m overly impressed with Anet at the moment. Why is it that the Necro gets virtually no love whatsoever when the already OP Warriors get a nice buff to their banners, and Engies basically have their entire class rebalanced?
I mean, come on, the amount of crap I take for playing a Necro in PvE is astounding. And it’s not like I completely disagree with what people say.
I would like to see Necro’s become a more viable party memeber than they are now. I’ve seen it said many times before, whatever we can do, another class can do better. I prefer a supportive role, so I can’t speak for the powermancers out there, but as a CM I feel like I’m not contributing much to the team. I would like more access to conditions, not just bleed but things like Vulnerability, Weakness, Chill, etc. – things that would actually be useful to the party and help increase their survivabilty and damage output.
As it stands I kind of have to focus on ONE condition to be effective in it. That’s why we see these “CMs” who’s only real condition is bleed, let’s face it….that’s NOT a CM, a CM should be applying and spreading CONDITIONS, plural.
I don’t like to rant, but I feel we deserve atleast some sort of recognition, or am I just being totally unreasonable and Necros are actually at a good place and I’m just no good at playing it?
I don’t like to rant, but I feel we deserve atleast some sort of recognition, or am I just being totally unreasonable and Necros are actually at a good place and I’m just no good at playing it?
No. We aren’t actually in a good place, unfortunately. We’re in an “OK” place currently. Necros aren’t the bottom of the barrel, but we’re not any where near the top either. It also doesn’t help that builds that might be top of the barrel are currently impossible to use because of bugs or unfriendly game mechanics to that build.
MMOs have a tendency to force people into metas and “max stat” philosophies at some point or another, and necromancers simply do not fit into any meta and our “max stat” is only so so. This also causes the exclusionary mentality. Especially in things that eat up a lot of time such as dungeons/instances. People want it done fast, not middling or slow. People want it done now, not soon or later. So to achieve this they will take the path of least resistance. Find the quickest to run dungeon with the highest return, the highest DPS possible, and best group support to go with it. Thats Warriors, Guardians, and Mesmers right now.
(edited by Kravick.4906)
@Skyro, talk with Nay and Del Onasi about our healing abilities. I once felt like you did and then watched their support builds keep three minions alive through an entire dungeon. I no longer disagree with them.
It was more like 6 minions between the two people running MM, get it right geez, always misinforming the masses ;-) /sarcasm. Bas is right though, our heals don’t seem so epic because you’re thinking of them in terms of guardian healing which has a lot of burst heal, but necro is more of a sustained healing type, couple that with a cover for your hp bar (DS) and it does become pretty op, even if DS only lasts for a few hits, those few powerful hits were redirected and not affecting your health while you continued to heal. I would be totally on board for having heal reduction while in DS though. While I would prefer a 50% I think 25% would be more realistic and wouldn’t make it remotely op while still providing more usefulness. I run full support builds so I know firsthand just how fast and often we can pop off massive healing and trust me, full heals while in DS would be too op. I would love it yes, is it feasible, no.
I agree with most of this as well. I don’t think allowing full healing would make us overpowered, but I understand why it isn’t there. We still lose life force while in death shroud, so it would be impossible to stay in constantly.
In PvE I don’t lose much healing in death shroud – our spike heals can all be done out of death shroud safely (or have to be done outside of death shroud as with dagger 2 and signet of the locust). It’s easy to stay out of death shroud while standing in well of blood because it can heal for so much. The only self-healing we miss out on is regen and life leeching on hits, both of which are relatively minor (this starts to get unreasonable when you have minion life leeching though).
In PvP it would be a larger buff since we are more likely to need to death shroud while standing in well of blood, but I think it would bring support builds in WvW closer to their PvE viability.
Again, I understand why they don’t do it, and it doesn’t really bother me (although a buff would always be welcome).
Also, Death Shroud UI improvements, yay!
I wouldn’t have an issue if after a dungeon/fractal the team was grateful they had a Necro in the group. But so far it seems the only classes who people are really grateful to have in a party are, as Kravick said, the Guardians, Warriors and Mesmers (I smell a new type of holy trinity forming here….)
Looking back at GW1, a good PARTY build was just as important as a good character build. The synergy between classes was great, and virtually any class could find a place in the team. I feel somewhere along the way Anet lost this class synergy. Sure conditions, boons and combo fields are supposed to provide this synergy, but it doesn’t work as well IMO, or maybe as a Necro I’m just not as useful in providing this sort of support?
But I have hope yet. The engie was apparently the least played class, and they had almost their entire class reworked. Maybe it’s our turn next?
While I applaud the DS UI change, I can’t say I’m overly impressed with Anet at the moment. Why is it that the Necro gets virtually no love whatsoever when the already OP Warriors get a nice buff to their banners, and Engies basically have their entire class rebalanced?
Both classes received heavy handed nerfs far outweighing the minor buffs actually, although in the case of Warriors they came in the form of the global quickness adjustment rather than a class specific change.
While I applaud the DS UI change, I can’t say I’m overly impressed with Anet at the moment. Why is it that the Necro gets virtually no love whatsoever when the already OP Warriors get a nice buff to their banners, and Engies basically have their entire class rebalanced?
Both classes received heavy handed nerfs far outweighing the minor buffs actually, although in the case of Warriors they came in the form of the global quickness adjustment rather than a class specific change.
I don’t play either class TBH, but from what I’ve heard from guildies they are all pretty happy with their changes (esp. the engies). The warriors were upset about the quickness nerf, but love their banners now. They quickly added a banner to their builds xD
While they might have had many nerfs aswell as buffs, they still got far more attention from Anet than the necro did. I mean health siphoning from walls i W3, really? Was there really nothing more important they could have used their time on. Perhaps it’s a W3 thing, I don’t do much W3 so can’t comment really..
Anyway, it doesn’t really make me wanna play my necro any less, I love my necro to bits, it’s just frustrating when playing in a group and you can really feel that all you are is a number filling a party slot.
Both classes received heavy handed nerfs far outweighing the minor buffs actually, although in the case of Warriors they came in the form of the global quickness adjustment rather than a class specific change.
Quickness wasnt a real class nerf, just weakening one build (that was unviable either way; outside of hotjoins), Engies got better turrets, stronger base power on kits, insane utility with that swap trait and grenades no longer need LoS. So weakening 2 high burst tricks (quickness whoring and the grenade/elixir swap 1500 ranged burst that was on par with arcane grab and 100b – both melee) for higher single utility strength and thus more build options.
Not that i dont understand the rage (i want the BWE 1 necro back), but both were cheap tricks.
While they might have had many nerfs aswell as buffs, they still got far more attention from Anet than the necro did. I mean health siphoning from walls i W3, really? Was there really nothing more important they could have used their time on. Perhaps it’s a W3 thing, I don’t do much W3 so can’t comment really..
I really aint sure about WvWvW walls, but even prior to patch vampiric worked of everything that had a hitbox, even trigger events like the geyser in Southsun and wall/blocks like the rocks in AC (that you cant target but are categorized as objects and change upon set values). Hell you can even damage Jade maw who is immune to all damage if you hit him, it is only 25 damage for some 40k or so hp bar, but still it works. So pretty sure it was put in just to give more text.
(edited by Andele.1306)
About the healing in DS, be it OP or not:
It’s still a bad design choice, having a entire trait line negated by using your class ability.
One of the only boon we can have permanently on us (regen) is also negated by our class mechanic.
I can’t see any other class that wouldn’t want/can’t use their class abilities when they want depending on the boons they have. And sometimes we don’t have a choice to use DS, even when we’re sitting in our (45 second cooldown) wells that heals us while ticking on 5 enemies or more, so all that big heal is wasted because of our class ability.
I really hope they can find a way to make it affect us in some way (even if it would be healing our lifeforce instead of our health) so that using DS wouldn’t hinder my gameplay.
Also on a more positive note, I was hunting them thieves yesterday in WvW. Been able to see them/target them correctly, they were like deers staring at spotlight. Most seemed to not know what to do and just panicked to have that much pressure. I feel for them (a bit… hum, well not at all)
DS works exactly as before, just you can actually see all the boons and conditions which is more than i could of ever hoped for in a patch. I was sort of able to heal in DS. Used life transfer just as i was about to run out of lifeforce, the ability continued to channel as it always did if you cast it just before you lost all your lifeforce. And because I aoe crit’d a group of enemies with 20 points in blood magic I went from almost no hp to half in a second. Its just a shame you cant force this to happen everytime anymore seeing as lifetransfer cancels if you switch out of DS manually (Was fixed a while ago and noone mentioned it).
Natural LF degeneration forces it, Casting it while the Life force bar is just about 1 cm away from the edge/spam tapping it while casting the last life blast lets you self heal via transfusion, isnt that public necromancer knowledge?
Yes ive known this for ages. Just come across alot of others who havent. You use to be able to force it just by leaving DS and it wouldnt interrupt but they fixed that a couple of patches ago.
DS works exactly as before, just you can actually see all the boons and conditions which is more than i could of ever hoped for in a patch. I was sort of able to heal in DS. Used life transfer just as i was about to run out of lifeforce, the ability continued to channel as it always did if you cast it just before you lost all your lifeforce. And because I aoe crit’d a group of enemies with 20 points in blood magic I went from almost no hp to half in a second. Its just a shame you cant force this to happen everytime anymore seeing as lifetransfer cancels if you switch out of DS manually (Was fixed a while ago and noone mentioned it).
Natural LF degeneration forces it, Casting it while the Life force bar is just about 1 cm away from the edge/spam tapping it while casting the last life blast lets you self heal via transfusion, isnt that public necromancer knowledge?
Yes ive known this for ages. Just come across alot of others who havent. You use to be able to force it just by leaving DS and it wouldnt interrupt but they fixed that a couple of patches ago.
Is this a feature or bug exploit I wonder?
Quickness wasnt a real class nerf, just weakening one build (that was unviable either way; outside of hotjoins), Engies got better turrets, stronger base power on kits, insane utility with that swap trait and grenades no longer need LoS.
The Kit Swap trait is all but unusable for Multi-Kit Engineers after the patch, it has nice utility, but due to the new 20s Global Cooldown it’s almost impossible to trigger them when you need them, meaning about 90% of the time it will be on Cooldown and when it triggers it’s not likely to be useful.
From what I can see Grenades still need to have a path to the target, they just don’t need to target a piece of ground you can see. Which means you can curve them over things, which is nice I agree.
But overall the Engineer updates left me kindof cold, I don’t think my build really gained anything much in most situations, and I lost quite a lot of utility and healing from the changes to the kit swap trait.
So overall, yes lots of changes, but quite a few Engineers feel they were a bit rushed.
As for the Necro, I’ve been playing on mine a bit today and the UI change makes a lot of difference, it would be nice if we could see our Utility/Healing Cooldowns even if they were greyed out. A lot of the time I am on low health and really want to know whether I can heal the moment I come out of DS.
But otherwise it doesn’t feel like many changes at all. But on the plus side, Necros never had much in the way of Quickness so in a way we have just got better relative to most other classes, which have had the Quickness part of some of their more powerful Builds nerfed, and less used stuff buffed.
@Bas
I was directing my post to you because to you painting an unrealistic scenario.
I think many bad players here are sick of you blowing rainbows and sunshine up our kitten holes with tales of realistic necro situations and your “lists of abilities” (not builds) that correctly portray an “everything is fine” necro.
Fixed your grammar. L2P.
I remember grouping with you a month or 2 back, 3 of us, warrior and 2 necros.
We took some camps and killed some players.
You must have gotten way better since then if you are telling people to L2P now.
The Kit Swap trait is all but unusable for Multi-Kit Engineers after the patch, it has nice utility, but due to the new 20s Global Cooldown it’s almost impossible to trigger them when you need them, meaning about 90% of the time it will be on Cooldown and when it triggers it’s not likely to be useful.
From what I can see Grenades still need to have a path to the target, they just don’t need to target a piece of ground you can see. Which means you can curve them over things, which is nice I agree.
But overall the Engineer updates left me kindof cold, I don’t think my build really gained anything much in most situations, and I lost quite a lot of utility and healing from the changes to the kit swap trait.
So overall, yes lots of changes, but quite a few Engineers feel they were a bit rushed.
Wait what? It has a 20 second cooldown? Sorry, never checked (and when i was plaing a bit on engie i never really paid attention, it was mostly stuff blows up when i dodge and i run with a giant flame infront of me; aka pyro suicide playstyle from TF2; he is one of my bank pack mules now since i got bored of hotjoins a while ago), as for grenades, i mean it in a indirect way (like you can place marks on walls) not actually letting stuff go trough walls, that is just stupid, what overall means you can throw them down ledges right under you/onto walls that you couldnt before.
a 5th skill in DS wouldn’t hurt..
And KR is the same timing as RTL, so at least, as an ele / engi mains I’m used to memorising that timing :p
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